EPTi've been testing around phoenix's recently and realized that the same number of vikings cannot shoot down the same number of phoenix's fast enough for the phoenixes to do some great damage lifting up the tanks while the ground forces distract/ deal with the marines. although i did realize that a single ghost could cancel off of those graviton beams, in which case, all the phoenix's with no shield will be fighting the vikings....
Busting myths with UnitTester - Page 5
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TDC
United States197 Posts
i've been testing around phoenix's recently and realized that the same number of vikings cannot shoot down the same number of phoenix's fast enough for the phoenixes to do some great damage lifting up the tanks while the ground forces distract/ deal with the marines. although i did realize that a single ghost could cancel off of those graviton beams, in which case, all the phoenix's with no shield will be fighting the vikings.... | ||
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BlACKTrA
Germany187 Posts
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Pertinacious
United States82 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:08 Ndugu wrote: Very good thread. Would love to see more! Do speed upgraded void rays pwn vikings for cost?  Been wondering this for a while.I tested this awhile back and the answer I got was no. Void Rays are very expensive, especially in gas. Equal cost Vikings seems to beat them unless the VRs already have a full charge (I didn't test w/Fazing). | ||
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Trion
Canada291 Posts
Ultra vs SCV, Reaper, Ghost, Hellion, Viking: Are you kidding? - No testing was done. I would think reapers ghosts and vikings would do great vs ulta with micro. Reapers should kite ultas easily. Vikings could do land lift micro and not get hit. As for ghosts, I'm not sure how many snipes are needed, but it should be fairly close cost for cost with ghost who are spread out and use snipe. Edit: I would think even hellions could do well with micro. | ||
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volkar
Germany27 Posts
could u please add another 2 Myth/Test. By add i mean test it as well. - vikings vs muta: I always hear ppl say that mutas do very well against vikings (even day9). But in my test they are almost even, and mutas cost more. In even numbers no clear winner in unit tester. I wonder what your results are. - marauders vs siege tanks: i have been searching for a way to break sieged tanks lines in TvT for decades. upgraded stimmed marauders do okay if there are not too many tanks. Medivacs + marauders do very well, but in a real game situation u need air control first. I wonder how ur tests are. best regards, volkar | ||
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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harky
98 Posts
Hellions are similar in that regard. They can take out Ultras 1v1, same with Reapers, but it takes so long that it isn't worth doing. | ||
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
On July 26 2010 02:52 iEchoic wrote: I would love you to test the "vikings (landed) vs roach" myth. A lot of people keep saying that vikings are very effective vs roaches. I don't know where this originated but I am almost sure it is not true (day[9] mentioned it in the king of the beta tournament). Vikings are very effective against roaches because you can land htem out of roach range and fire at the roaches. As the roaches move in to fire at the vikings you can lift the vikings, preventing the roaches from getting shots off and just reposition the vikings again. Even in a stand up fight that superior viking range is good. Vikings also do considerable damage on the ground - they are just much more expensive than anything else for their damage. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On July 26 2010 02:56 sikyon wrote: Vikings are very effective against roaches because you can land htem out of roach range and fire at the roaches. As the roaches move in to fire at the vikings you can lift the vikings, preventing the roaches from getting shots off and just reposition the vikings again. Even in a stand up fight that superior viking range is good. Vikings also do considerable damage on the ground - they are just much more expensive than anything else for their damage. Obviously any unit is good against the other one if they land somewhere they can't be hit (exploiting greater range). However, people throw this one around like vikings are good in general ground-ground combat. So I'd like to see how effective they are there. | ||
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harky
98 Posts
The hangup some people have is thinking Soft/Hard counter and applying it to statements like, "Vikings beat Roaches 1v1." The statement is true, but it also means the Terran player is using an army worth more than double the cost. Remember that 1 Viking costs more than 2 Roaches. The reason they soft counter in small numbers vs small numbers is that the Roaches literally can not kill them. As soon as their are enough to kill a Viking during the lift-off cast time the advantage is completely nullified. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On July 26 2010 03:06 harky wrote: The Viking vs Roach thing is weird. Up until 8 Roaches Vikings win. After 8 Roaches are involved Vikings get demolished. At best you'll be trading 1 Viking for 1 Roach at that point and that makes Roaches a soft counter on the ground to Vikings. Once that mass is reached. Before that Roaches can't kill Vikings at all, so they do soft counter Roaches before 8. The hangup some people have is thinking Soft/Hard counter and applying it to statements like, "Vikings beat Roaches 1v1." The statement is true, but it also means the Terran player is using an army worth more than double the cost. Remember that 1 Viking costs more than 2 Roaches. The reason they soft counter in small numbers vs small numbers is that the Roaches literally can not kill them. As soon as their are enough to kill a Viking during the lift-off cast time the advantage is completely nullified. What do you mean up to 8 roaches? Are you talking like 1v1, 2v2, 3v3? Why would you do that when vikings cost twice as much? You should be doing 2v4, 3v6, etc. If 1 roach beats one viking, I would consider that hard countering vikings (seeing as you're paying half-cost to kill another unit). There are many so-called 'counters' that don't even approach that efficiency (for example, Marauders don't counter roaches at a double-cost ratio). | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On July 26 2010 03:18 obsid wrote: iEchoic I get roaches winning at or above 1 viking : 1.2 Roaches with no micro on eather side. At 1 vr 2 thats 1 viking (150/75) vr 2 roaches (150/50), at 10 vikings (1500/750) vr 12 roaches(900/300). All In all I would say without micro roaches win by a good margin. Now with micro the vikings win, because they can just fire lift off, land somewhere else, fire lift off, and take little to no damage. But it takes a LONG time, and unless you have perfect micro there is no way your defeating an equal resource cost of roaches (although you can do better then the no micro version). Yeah, this sounds reasonable. I would consider 1 viking : 1.2 roaches not effective at all, though. That's pretty bad. Vikings are over twice as expensive. As for the micro, it's not really worth mentioning, otherwise you could say reapers and hellions counter ultras with micro, heh. | ||
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Amandil
United States58 Posts
Of course none of this accounts for army synergy, ultras might do well vs thors and stalkers and such, but with helions and zealots tanking (both which tank them ok, but do awful damage) it lets the high dps units get off alot of shots before the ultras can even reach them. Using marauders to counter ultras seems a bit silly, because the zerg should always be throwing in a couple infestors to growth the rauders, and then i'm pretty sure rauders are gonna lose pretty bad. Also a tip to ultra users, if you cant get a good flank or open fighting area, throw half your ultras in overlords and drop them in the mid-back portion of the enemies army. Its incredibly effective to drop 2 ultras in the middle of 10 tanks, they die really quick. Also another tip, burrowing ultras (i'm guessing getting lifted by and overlord does too) does stop a thors cannon, so you can minimize the damage if its a smaller battle or if you have insane micro! | ||
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Vengeaner
Russian Federation28 Posts
Because currently it is common knowledge thaat Thors counter mutas, so usually T adds no more than two Thors to his mech army for first push, at that time you could have 10 mutas! And T will think - "Mutas? Lol, come and try to kill my thors" which will be his fail.... after mutas crush that thors and then go for tanks and hellions. The fact that Thors are more cost effective that mutas does not matter in this examples. It is important that muta CAN FIGHT thors if microed. I will surely try it out in ladder games after realease. By the way, very funny thing - in SC1 it was a "Muta stacks" and now it is "Muta spreads" that rock? )) at least vs T | ||
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LeCastor
France234 Posts
Always want to know how to spread mutas with thors. | ||
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harky
98 Posts
The point of people talking about 1v1/2v2/etc is that those situations do occur. When that happens the Vikings mop the floor with the Roaches very quickly. The reason commentators mention it at times is they'll see a player pull back 4 Vikings which are being attacked by say 5 Roaches. With very minor minco the Vikings win that while taking no losses, but some players forget that and think about the unit value instead. What they should really be thinking is they can defeat a 375/125 force for free. Also the difference between Roach v. Viking and Ultra v Reaper/Hellion is kill time. Vikings kill Roaches faster than Roaches kill Vikings. It takes a Viking ~12 seconds to kill a Roach, but takes a Roach ~14 seconds to kill a Viking. Compare to a Repear which takes nearly 2 minutes to kill an Ultra. | ||
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Kahmunrah_
Singapore15 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On July 25 2010 07:51 Piousflea wrote: --------- MYTH #4: "Thors hard-counter Ultralisks": BUSTED Without any upgrades, one Ultra will beat one Thor with ~90 HP left. With 3/3 upgrades, the Ultra will beat the Thor with ~106 HP left. If multiple Ultras and multiple Thors are involved (big blobs with no micro), the Thors lose horribly due to splash damage. Using Strike Cannons on an Ultra will leave him with 1 hp. Shooting him first, then using cannons, will kill him easily. The problem is that after the Thor finishes firing Strike Cannons, there is a REALLY long delay before it can move or fire. This can actually be bad in larger battles. Targeting an Ultra that would have died anyways basically just "self-stuns" your Thor, decreasing overall DPS. disagree here, pure thor v pure ultra is not a realistic fight at all. assuming equal supply, X thors w/ 250 mm cannon + army will always beat X ultras + army. 250 mm strike cannon will essentially kill off all ultras immediately. | ||
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