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On July 27 2010 00:30 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 19:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 26 2010 19:05 Sabresandiego wrote:
If you just go by the unit tester, hellions lose to every unit in the game cost for cost. If you micro them however things change. Busted 10 Hellions vs 20 Marines. If you do nothing other than move the blob of hellions where the first row is touching the blob of marines and stop, hellions win by a large margin. (this causes about 1/2 the marines to die on the first attack) 10 Hellions vs 40 Zerglings. With no micro they actually do lose here, until you get Infernal Pre-igniter, then it's no contest regardless of how many upgrades the lings have. This is no different from the amount of micro he does on most of these tests. Go figure that hellions are actually good against the units they're good against eh? Uh.. you just confirmed his point. Also a lot of these are really misleading as others have said - especially looking at Vikings vs Corruptors. Vikings have the range advantage and can score a lot of free damage from kiting. Vikings also are HALF the gas of a corruptor, so it's really not fair to face them 1v1. You didn't face BC vs Hydra 1v1, you actually looked at cost - why didn't you with a 100/150 unit vs a 125/75 unit? Ultras vs thors, why don't you use strike cannons? They have the ability for a reason. Yes if you use it stupidly it will be worthless, just like if you psi storm your own units. An HT counters Marines even though you can waste psi storm if you want.
I've got no idea where you got the funny numbers from, but 3 out of 4 of them are wrong. Corruptors are 150 minerals and 100 gas, while vikings are 150 minerals and 75 gas.
The vikings do win over corruptors and phoenix in direct combat, as long as they have the same total cost.
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On July 26 2010 15:01 t3tsubo wrote:
roaches versus zealots and roaches versus thors plz, roaches versus thors only because of Idra's awesome hold against TLO in the KOTB tourney
Thors are pretty good against anything that isn't a tier 1 unit (And not bad against tier 1 either), but they have a huge problem with attack priority versus air. If you watch Idra's hold the Thors target Mutas and Overlords while the Roaches are attacking.
On July 26 2010 13:48 NeWnAr wrote:
Check Roaches vs Zealots pls.
Attack move 1v1 zealots beat roaches which is true in small numbers. Any small scoot and shoot micro leaves the zealots losing badly regardless of numbers.
It should be noted that Ultras and Tanks are much better and much worse respectively in the unit tester. Ultras tend to splash everything in the unit tester and tanks can't be placed in an advantageous position.
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On July 26 2010 14:56 MangoTango wrote:
So, given this data, Ultralisks are pretty much lolpwn against Terran, since you will never have enough room to manouver 40 Marauders against 12 Ultras. And those Ultras will be accompanied by 9435623454 lings. Enough whining about Ultras not being good enough then?
Bad zergs are going to keep complaining until they finally see some pros abusing ultras (which have been good for a while, and are now overpowered) and they'll copy.
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On July 27 2010 04:23 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 15:01 t3tsubo wrote:
roaches versus zealots and roaches versus thors plz, roaches versus thors only because of Idra's awesome hold against TLO in the KOTB tourney Thors are pretty good against anything that isn't a tier 1 unit (And not bad against tier 1 either), but they have a huge problem with attack priority versus air. If you watch Idra's hold the Thors target Mutas and Overlords while the Roaches are attacking. Attack move 1v1 zealots beat roaches which is true in small numbers. Any small scoot and shoot micro leaves the zealots losing badly regardless of numbers. It should be noted that Ultras and Tanks are much better and much worse respectively in the unit tester. Ultras tend to splash everything in the unit tester and tanks can't be placed in an advantageous position.
It's good they target Mutas I feel as they are the only antiair most of the time.
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On July 25 2010 08:02 Lexvink wrote:
First off, lol @ your teammate who thought mutalisk beat corruptors with base 2 armor. The problem with this is that it only considers the fight is a direct open fight. For example the Ultralisk vs a Thor. Sure, ultralisk beats a Thor in a straight up battle, but as the number increase, the Thors will do much better. Then what if the Ultralisks are fighting in a choke, the Thors would destroy an equal amount of Ultras. However, if the Ultras are able to get a flank, the Ultras would do much better.
You also do not give enough information with these myths. For example, your Battlecruiser fighting Hydralisks is it in an attack move fashion from 1 to another? Without creep? With creep? Do the hydras unburrow under the BC?
Dude, you're being silly. OP plastered his post with MORE than enough disclaimers for you to be able to answer all of these "questions" yourself. He was just being very general and dispelling a few myths about "unit x hard counters unit y", which is nice.
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It is abused with overlords pretty easily. I think if the priority was lowered then it would help them out a lot.
It might also be caused by the long air range and animation when compared to the ground attack.
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On July 27 2010 04:27 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 14:56 MangoTango wrote:
So, given this data, Ultralisks are pretty much lolpwn against Terran, since you will never have enough room to manouver 40 Marauders against 12 Ultras. And those Ultras will be accompanied by 9435623454 lings. Enough whining about Ultras not being good enough then? Bad zergs are going to keep complaining until they finally see some pros abusing ultras (which have been good for a while, and are now overpowered) and they'll copy.
The ZvT issue has never been how good ultras are, it's T's mech push before Z can tech to ultras. Don't label all zerg players as bad just because they are all losing the ZvT matchup so badly.
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On July 27 2010 05:07 Percutio wrote:
It is abused with overlords pretty easily. I think if the priority was lowered then it would help them out a lot.
It might also be caused by the long air range and animation when compared to the ground attack.
I'll use this in the future, never realized it would prioritize a nonattacking unit over an attacking unit!
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On July 27 2010 04:27 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 14:56 MangoTango wrote:
So, given this data, Ultralisks are pretty much lolpwn against Terran, since you will never have enough room to manouver 40 Marauders against 12 Ultras. And those Ultras will be accompanied by 9435623454 lings. Enough whining about Ultras not being good enough then? Bad zergs are going to keep complaining until they finally see some pros abusing ultras (which have been good for a while, and are now overpowered) and they'll copy.
So in response to zerg players complaining about the ultra being underpowered you respond by complaining it is overpowered... My head hurts.
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On July 27 2010 06:02 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:07 Percutio wrote:
It is abused with overlords pretty easily. I think if the priority was lowered then it would help them out a lot.
It might also be caused by the long air range and animation when compared to the ground attack. I'll use this in the future, never realized it would prioritize a nonattacking unit over an attacking unit!
You should test it out to see exactly how the priority works.
I'm pretty sure they attack overlords over ground units as long as the overlords are in range first (Most of the time this will be true considering the Thor air attack range).
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On July 27 2010 06:43 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 06:02 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 27 2010 05:07 Percutio wrote:
It is abused with overlords pretty easily. I think if the priority was lowered then it would help them out a lot.
It might also be caused by the long air range and animation when compared to the ground attack. I'll use this in the future, never realized it would prioritize a nonattacking unit over an attacking unit! You should test it out to see exactly how the priority works. I'm pretty sure they attack overlords over ground units as long as the overlords are in range first (Most of the time this will be true considering the Thor air attack range).
I don't think that has with priority to do at all. All units keep their target untill the target is either dead or out of range. I don't think overlords would be targeted if there where a choice between them and an attacking unit.
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On July 27 2010 06:51 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 06:43 Percutio wrote:On July 27 2010 06:02 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 27 2010 05:07 Percutio wrote:
It is abused with overlords pretty easily. I think if the priority was lowered then it would help them out a lot.
It might also be caused by the long air range and animation when compared to the ground attack. I'll use this in the future, never realized it would prioritize a nonattacking unit over an attacking unit! You should test it out to see exactly how the priority works. I'm pretty sure they attack overlords over ground units as long as the overlords are in range first (Most of the time this will be true considering the Thor air attack range). I don't think that has with priority to do at all. All units keep their target untill the target is either dead or out of range. I don't think overlords would be targeted if there where a choice between them and an attacking unit.
Read my previous posts, I was saying that I think it happens mostly because of the difference between Thor air range and ground attack range.
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On July 27 2010 07:11 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 06:51 Batch wrote:On July 27 2010 06:43 Percutio wrote:On July 27 2010 06:02 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 27 2010 05:07 Percutio wrote:
It is abused with overlords pretty easily. I think if the priority was lowered then it would help them out a lot.
It might also be caused by the long air range and animation when compared to the ground attack. I'll use this in the future, never realized it would prioritize a nonattacking unit over an attacking unit! You should test it out to see exactly how the priority works. I'm pretty sure they attack overlords over ground units as long as the overlords are in range first (Most of the time this will be true considering the Thor air attack range). I don't think that has with priority to do at all. All units keep their target untill the target is either dead or out of range. I don't think overlords would be targeted if there where a choice between them and an attacking unit. Read my previous posts, I was saying that I think it happens mostly because of the difference between Thor air range and ground attack range.
Yeah, I get that. Just wanted to point out that I didn't think priority had anything to do with it. 
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On July 27 2010 06:51 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 06:43 Percutio wrote:On July 27 2010 06:02 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 27 2010 05:07 Percutio wrote:
It is abused with overlords pretty easily. I think if the priority was lowered then it would help them out a lot.
It might also be caused by the long air range and animation when compared to the ground attack. I'll use this in the future, never realized it would prioritize a nonattacking unit over an attacking unit! You should test it out to see exactly how the priority works. I'm pretty sure they attack overlords over ground units as long as the overlords are in range first (Most of the time this will be true considering the Thor air attack range). I don't think that has with priority to do at all. All units keep their target untill the target is either dead or out of range. I don't think overlords would be targeted if there where a choice between them and an attacking unit.
Not true with workers at least. If you tell your workers to attack lings, they are prioritized (assuming they initiate contact first), and then if marines come behind and start shooting the lings, they still prioritize workers UNTIL you tell the workers to stop on attack move.
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I have a myth/thing to try out.
My current assumption, and possibly the assumption of others, is that a force of roaches will be able to approach and deal more DPS to tanks (before burrow) than a group of hydralisks do. Is that actually accurate (both for on creep and off creep)? Maybe the 6 range of hydras means they'll get more damage off even if they die faster. The problem with this myth would be that it changes for different #s of tanks.
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On July 27 2010 08:20 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 06:51 Batch wrote:On July 27 2010 06:43 Percutio wrote:On July 27 2010 06:02 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 27 2010 05:07 Percutio wrote:
It is abused with overlords pretty easily. I think if the priority was lowered then it would help them out a lot.
It might also be caused by the long air range and animation when compared to the ground attack. I'll use this in the future, never realized it would prioritize a nonattacking unit over an attacking unit! You should test it out to see exactly how the priority works. I'm pretty sure they attack overlords over ground units as long as the overlords are in range first (Most of the time this will be true considering the Thor air attack range). I don't think that has with priority to do at all. All units keep their target untill the target is either dead or out of range. I don't think overlords would be targeted if there where a choice between them and an attacking unit. Not true with workers at least. If you tell your workers to attack lings, they are prioritized (assuming they initiate contact first), and then if marines come behind and start shooting the lings, they still prioritize workers UNTIL you tell the workers to stop on attack move.
I never said attack priorities don't exist, they do. I just commented that the case when overlords were attacked before other units was because they were the only target in range when the attacking started.
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Why not consider the use of Ghosts vs. Ultras like that?
I get the feeling that using snipe on Ultras is one of the few things that can work against them besides Marauders and BCs....
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That isn't very realistic. Ghosts cost too much gas and even a full energy Ghost can only do 360 damage to an ultra and it takes a lot of time and micro to pull off that many snipes.
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thanks alot pious. good effort
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It isnt that unrealistic. the only unrealistic part is its unlikly all your ghosts will be at full energy. But a full energy ghost, does beat an ultra per cost. As far the time and micro, its not that hard, you just select all your ghosts, press the snipe key, hold shift, and spam click on the ultra. As your ghosts can be invis, you should be able to get in range.
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EPT
