EPTBusting myths with UnitTester - Page 7
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RodrigoX
United States645 Posts
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harky
98 Posts
FabledIntegral, test it yourself if you don't believe it. The issue is as follows: Vikings are faster and have a longer range, while Carriers must gets Interceptors out to even attack. This when going 3v1 the Vikings can simply move out before being destroyed one at a time, then when the next wave of attacks goes off they can shoot the Carrier, then move away again. With absolutely no micro the Carrier is left with ~75 health. If Vikings are moved away so that the Carrier is forced to attack a full health Viking the Carrier dies with all Vikings badly damaged. If the Vikings snipe instead they take no damage. Interceptors launch from range 8, Vikings attack from range 9. Because of the difference in movement speed this allows Vikings to hit and run a Carrier to death without ever taking serious damage. The larger the numbers the worse it is for the Carriers. If you'd like some fun try to micro 12 Vikings vs 12 Carriers. Once you get the hang of it you'll be able to win. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
also it depends on production capabilities, a terran who goes vikings(starports with reactor) will be able to produce more than the protoss will(even with the chrono-boost) but the article is nice, nonetheless | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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EssayReader
Korea (South)127 Posts
Myth #2 - Was Corruption used? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 26 2010 07:05 harky wrote: NATO, no it doesn't matter. The speed difference combined with the range makes it a moot point. Ultras die before getting a hit in. On creep Ultras do run faster, which makes me think that's where he tested it. FabledIntegral, test it yourself if you don't believe it. The issue is as follows: Vikings are faster and have a longer range, while Carriers must gets Interceptors out to even attack. This when going 3v1 the Vikings can simply move out before being destroyed one at a time, then when the next wave of attacks goes off they can shoot the Carrier, then move away again. With absolutely no micro the Carrier is left with ~75 health. If Vikings are moved away so that the Carrier is forced to attack a full health Viking the Carrier dies with all Vikings badly damaged. If the Vikings snipe instead they take no damage. Interceptors launch from range 8, Vikings attack from range 9. Because of the difference in movement speed this allows Vikings to hit and run a Carrier to death without ever taking serious damage. The larger the numbers the worse it is for the Carriers. If you'd like some fun try to micro 12 Vikings vs 12 Carriers. Once you get the hang of it you'll be able to win. You tell me to try it, but I've used Carriers probably more than almost anyone else in the entire Beta on the Diamond ladder. You're talking about a 1 range difference - even the pros will hardly be able to take advantage of that. Mutas vs Archons in BW --> Mutas have one more range, but you would not by any means say that Mutas hard counter Archons. Carriers can move while attacking, and once deployed, have an attacking range of 12. Also, you can not use any type of patrol move to attack vs Carriers simply because if Interceptors are deployed, which they almost for sure will be, it won't target the Carrier, while I believe (emphasis on the believe) if you manually target the Carrier, they actually stop to turn around and fire, meaning it's impossible to kite Carriers. Your situation will almost never play out in an actual game. Even if it does, I would bet you hundreds that you're completely full of shit when you say 12 Vikings vs 4 carriers results in not a single viking dying, especially because your scenario definitely had no mention of kiting. To continue, because vikings can't stack all on each other like in SC1, you can't effective kite with large amounts of Vikings vs Carriers, so your point is moot. It only works to exploit the range if all the vikings are stacked on top of each other. By no means are Vikings a "hard counter" they are a soft counter, and even if they are a hard counter the fact that Carriers >> ground and Vikings << ground means you'll probably win a battle if you've managed to get 4 Carriers and they bought 12 Vikings. | ||
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harky
98 Posts
On July 26 2010 09:25 obsid wrote: Your right in that vikings do attack at 9 and carriers launch at 8, but unless your fighting a computer AI only, pulling back as vikings dont work, as the carrier can continue to attack while it moves. 12 carriers will OWN 12 vikings easy. Nah, try it. The issue is that Vikings move substantially faster than Carriers. While a deployed Carrier does have a range of 10 (not 12 as the above poster implied), that only matters for a very short period of time. We're not talking about stutter stepping like Marauders, but moving entirely out of range and reengaging. Thus 'sniping' and not 'kiting'. Again, try it yourself. In very low numbers pulling one back entirely does indeed work and at large enough numbers sniping comes into play as mentioned. Try it out. Take 12 Vikings against 12 Carriers and from outside either units range have the Viking's attack a Carrier. As soon as the missiles fire move away entirely until the Interceptors return. Usually only 3-5 will be able to launch and only 2-3 are able to fire. Meanwhile you've already killed 1 Carrier. Edit: Just a note, if you haven't seen it; Yes, Vikings can indeed all stack. They only spread when stationary. There is a spread after the firing when using an attack command to move. They spread much further as you retreat, but a quick patrol loop and they'll be clustered again. If you haven't seen a Viking UFO before you're missing out.  | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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harky
98 Posts
Either way the definition I've always seen used is that Hard counter = wins even with lower investment and Soft = wins at equal investment. So I'd still have to put Viking in the 'hard' range even if you could only kill say 5 with 12, which is extremely easy. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 26 2010 10:04 harky wrote: Nah, try it. The issue is that Vikings move substantially faster than Carriers. While a deployed Carrier does have a range of 10 (not 12 as the above poster implied), that only matters for a very short period of time. We're not talking about stutter stepping like Marauders, but moving entirely out of range and reengaging. Thus 'sniping' and not 'kiting'. Again, try it yourself. In very low numbers pulling one back entirely does indeed work and at large enough numbers sniping comes into play as mentioned. Try it out. Take 12 Vikings against 12 Carriers and from outside either units range have the Viking's attack a Carrier. As soon as the missiles fire move away entirely until the Interceptors return. Usually only 3-5 will be able to launch and only 2-3 are able to fire. Meanwhile you've already killed 1 Carrier. Edit: Just a note, if you haven't seen it; Yes, Vikings can indeed all stack. They only spread when stationary. There is a spread after the firing when using an attack command to move. They spread much further as you retreat, but a quick patrol loop and they'll be clustered again. If you haven't seen a Viking UFO before you're missing out. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they only stack incredibly temporarily, and even when flying begin to slowly unstack. If you're talking about picking off a carrier every minute or so, that's anything but hard countering and the simple fact other units are going to be in the play (aka blinking stalkers, etc.) makes the argument completely null. One range isn't exactly huge, and a single fuckup would mean you'd lose a LOT of vikings. And all the interceptors are deployed nearly simultaneously with the launch upgrade. EDIT: And you're still completely wrong about the 12 vs 4 situation, which is the main thing I was calling you out on. The 12 range was merely assumed from what other people have said repeatedly, although I admit I haven't confirmed it myself. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
Unstimmed Marine/Marauder: 2.25 Stimmed Marine/Marauder: (2.25+1.13) = 3.38 Ultralisk (Off creep): 3.75 Ultralisks on creep are somewhere around 4.5 IIRC. Whether on or off creep they will outrun terran bio. | ||
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 26 2010 10:54 obsid wrote: Carriers vr what Zato? Carriers beat stuff on equal resources that you wouldn't expect; Vikings for instance, and more strikingly Void Rays which are explicitly advertised as a counter to them. They beat Thors handily, and also Hydras iirc, and in large numbers beat even Stalkers in my tests. Units that beat carriers head on include Battlecruisers and Corruptors (too much armor on those against the interceptors' 5x2 attack), as well as Marines (they will demolish your interceptor count). | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
If the voidrays enter any battle with even close to even resource cost and already charged (on rocks or something), they kill tons of carriers. | ||
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