EPTBusting myths with UnitTester - Page 3
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SeeDLiNg
United States690 Posts
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Capteone
United States197 Posts
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
On July 25 2010 10:14 harky wrote: How are you testing this? Do groups both start within range? Some examples: #1: If Phoenix start within their range 4, they should win up to around 7, then Viking should win up to around 13. However, Vikings should get 1 shot off before being engaged. #2: Again if Corruptors start within range they should beat Vikings. Kill time is lower by ~1 second. However the Vikings should again get 1 free shot, which closes that gap. #4: Ultas starting in melee will beat Thors. If starting at range the Thors will get 2 free shots (122 damage). The kill time difference is only 1.3 seconds, which is roughly equal to the close difference. Likewise if the Thor waits until firing a single shot to start the Cannons they should kill the Ultralisk before dying even with full upgrades. I am testing using the "UnitTester" map from www.sc2mapster.com, which causes blobs of units to attack-move into each other on open terrain. It sounds to me like you are using a spreadsheeted "time to kill" calculation. Please do yourself a favor and delete the spreadsheet. Units have different attack animation length and launch point, and variable amounts of delay between movement, deceleration, and attacking. (Hellions and Vikings are notorious for having a long delay between deceleration and attack) Some units are more prone to overkill than others. (For example, due to its rate of fire a Battlecruiser will generally fire one more shot at its target than is actually needed to kill it) For both of these reasons, time-to-kill calculations bear little resemblance to actual in-game killing power. Your point #4 is accurate however, if you use the strike cannon properly (after shooting once) the Thor will win 1v1 every time. When testing 8v8 Viking/Corruptor for instance the Vikings won handedly. This is true if you use focus fire (so that you kill a corruptor before it even gets in range), but it is not true for a pure attack-move battle. Once every several battles the vikings will win, but generally the corruptors will win. ---------------- The point of my post is to illustrate that several unit matchups that are often called "hard counters" (such as Thor vs Ultra and Viking vs Corruptor) are actually pretty soft. Most of my cases are still pretty decent counters if you micro them. However, if you're a noob and think you can just attack-move, you could lose. | ||
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Moja
United States313 Posts
- Start with a spread group of mutas and move command over the thors. Focus fire once you're directly above them. | ||
DivinO
United States4796 Posts
Cool article. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
On July 25 2010 09:31 Piousflea wrote: Hm, I found out what is bugged. With one carrier the storm icon works fine. However, if you have 2 or more carriers and hit storm, it sometimes generates interceptors that are not linked to any carrier that will attack-move all the way across the map by themselves, and can even keep flying if the carriers are destroyed. I have run in to this glitch, never found how/why it happens so... Did a bit of experimenting, and this is what I found: The interceptors are generated when you click the respawn button. To work around this, you have to box-click-attack-move both forces to do your simulation. Hope this helps your mythbusting, cheers. | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
On July 25 2010 09:20 Sabresandiego wrote: Ultras rape all Terran ground. Terran has no answer for Ultras, Mech is the worst. The best thing to do as a terran if there are ultras in play is to mass marauders and hellions (for the lings that are always paired with ultras) and try to stim kite them while getting BC's with gas. Ultras are freaking good. Marauders do very well against Ultralisks by cost, especially if you can force the fight into chokes where the ultras have pathing issues. | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
On July 25 2010 11:37 EnderCN wrote: Marauders do very well against Ultralisks by cost, especially if you can force the fight into chokes where the ultras have pathing issues. Marauders will die very quickly to ultralisks if caught on open ground, unless you stim and run them away. All three races have a VERY simple counter to ultralisks. Don't be caught on open terrain. If Starcraft was played on infinite flat plains with no obstacles, mass ultralisks would beat every ground unit in the game except Immortals. Put them in a chokepoint and you can basically LOL at them. | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:46 Piousflea wrote: This is a UnitTester thread, so "no micro" is assumed. Obviously none of these are "real game" situations. So yes, everything is attack-move. It is easy to test viking vs phoenix scaling. For 1v1, 3v3, 5v5, and 10v10 battles the phoenixes win more often than they lose. Vikings cannot "shoot and scoot" vs phoenixes, it's 2.75 speed and stop-before-shooting versus 4.25 speed and moving-shot. Large numbers give the vikings a chance to kill a phoenix or two before the phoenixes get in range, but this is canceled out by the viking's tendency to waste shots on overkill. As far as capital ships go, battlecruisers are easy to test, broodlords and carriers are very hard to test. BLs tend to give insanely variable test results, if the broodlings make a tight wall the ground units don't stand a chance, if they don't then BLs are in trouble. Carriers are currently bugged in UnitTester so you have to build interceptors manually and testing takes forever. (hitting the button to auto-populate interceptors can allow one carrier to have 12-16 interceptors) BCs vs Hydra - 1 BC will always win against 5 hydras, and always lose against 6 hydras. - 3 BCs will usually win against 15 hydras, and often lose against 16 hydras. (variable) A 1 BC : 5 hydra ratio seems fairly constant - Unburrowing hydras under BCs is not a good idea. The unburrowing animation takes long enough that BCs can actually fire ~2-3 shots before the hydras start shooting. BC vs Stalker - 1 BC will always win against 4 stalkers, and always lose against 5 stalkers. - 3 BCs will usually win against 12 stalkers, and will sometimes lose against 13 stalkers. This places the BC:Stalker ratio at just over 1:4. - Unlike Burrow, Blink helps significantly. Blinking 12 stalkers at 3 BCs will win. BC vs Marine - Without shield or stim, 1 BC beats 13 marines and loses to 14 marines. - With shield only, 1 BC beats 11 marines and loses to 12 marines. - With stim only, 1 BC beats 11 marines and loses to 12 marines. - With shield+stim, 1 BC beats 10 marines and loses to 11 marines. - 3 BCs vs marines (with shield+stim) is variable. If the marines get a good concave, as few as 30 marines can kill the BCs. If the marines don't get a great concave, BCs can kill as many as 32 marines. 1 BC : 10 marines with shield+stim is fair. However, unlike stalkers or hydras, marines have less range than BCs. This means that well positioned BCs can melt marines without taking damage. Intersting. Thanks  I wonder if Tier 3 is going to end up being more viable at a competitive level than it seems now. I could definitely see it being a goal Blizzard had with Starcraft II. | ||
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Coolzx
United States138 Posts
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On July 25 2010 12:05 Ndugu wrote: Intersting. Thanks I wonder if Tier 3 is going to end up being more viable at a competitive level than it seems now. I could definitely see it being a goal Blizzard had with Starcraft II. For such a new game I'm actually surprised how used the tier 3 is in high level play | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 25 2010 11:00 MangoTango wrote: 3 and 4 are very surprising to me. What is the correct answer to Ultras then? Tanks with Hellions to, uh, tank the damage? Unsieged tanks deal alot of damage to ultras. also banshees and STIMMED marauders are good. getting ultras off of creep is really important if you don't just have a ton of stuff. | ||
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Meldrath
United States620 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
 I suggest to everybody to suggest things to him to make him do more test... a little bit like the MythBusters way. I suggest you try to do the Charged void-ray myth vs queens. I say that 1 Charged void ray will beat 2 queen where non-charge only beat 1. I really would like to know if 2 beat 4 etc... | ||
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ogalthine
18 Posts
On July 25 2010 12:06 Coolzx wrote: I though Myth 1,2,3,4,7 were common knowledge and I think only noobs would think Myth 8 to be true. The only one that would be a myth would be phoenix versus voidrays since most people haven't seen that done yet. wank wank wank wank wank wank These results really start to make me shudder as far as Terran air goes. Vikings can be used for neat vision and range tricks, but they don't seem good for much besides killing other vikings. And things that don't shoot back. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
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roronoe
Canada1527 Posts
I want to suggest voidray vs vikings, if voidrays beat vikings in large numbers. | ||
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