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Hi,
For some time while the beta has been down I've had lucid and very vivid mushroom dreams about SC2. And in one of them I had a thought.
Why couldn't Protoss go something similiar to Terrans 1/1/1 build? Now I'm no high level diamond player by any means, in fact I never played SC1/BW and only played the SC2 beta a while but got top gold or so.
Since in general playing reactively seems like a good idea why not open up with a broad variety of choices?
What would make terran more suitable to go 1/1/1 than protoss?
I could see a mid game push with some units from each building structure working quite fine (something like zealot/immortal/phoenix).
Anyway, was just curious what you all thought of it.
Cheers.
PS. I Know, different races, different strategies. Doesn't mean we shouldn't experiment.
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1/1/1 takes too long to get for protoss. Terran can wall off and defend with bunkers/marines into siege tanks.
Protoss would die with only 1 gateway. Late game i personaly go 2/1/2 (1 being the stargate). However this is after a natural.
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All right yea, I mean there is nothing that says it can't be a 2/1/1 or whatever. I mean it's not like terrans stop making unit producing structures either 
But I see your point, of course. But maybe it could be a transition from a standard 2-gate opening into 2/1/2 as you suggested and thus gaining a little of each instead of one teched up way..
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nice mushroom trip but naah wouldn't work
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United States47024 Posts
The success of 1/1/1 banks on the versatility of the buildings involved, and the Starport in particular. Specifically, depending on scouting, it can contribute a fast Viking, fast Banshee, or fast Raven, all of which which are strong responses to robust midgame compositions that Protoss can choose, even those that are heavy on lower-tech units. A tech opening means that your army is going to be weaker, but 1/1/1 works because the Starport units can pull their weight in a fight.
The problem is the same can't be said of the Stargate units. Void Rays are poor at fighting low-tech bio compositions on open ground, and Phoenixes would almost be dead weight.
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Yeah Protoss cannot be as diverse as other races. You will not have enough gas to support all that tech.
Plus this so does not meet the strategy forum guidelines.
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1/1/1 works so well because of the versaility of the banshee and the marine.
For protoss, void rays and pheonix are both bad in small numbers. However, if you go 1/1/1 vs a terran 1/1/1 you have the following.
Pheonix - negates banshees really well
Robo - obs for the banshee and immortals are great to kill the tanks. with pheonix to lift them anyway
Gateway - small amount of zealot/sentry enough to take down a few marines with guardian shield
1/1/1 +forge +1 armour might be a really good theory. I'm going to test it when randoming ladder when beta comes back.
Starport complements robo really well in this specific case because you have an extremely cost efficient way to deal with both banshee [obs+pheonix, pheonix do like triple dps vs light than stalkers and can outrun banshees] and tanks [lift+immortal clean up the rest]
But I wouldn't bet on it vs a standard macro build. Pheonix works well in large numbers if you want to use them vs a standard army and immortals/obs/robo drain too much gas off 1 base I'd reckon.
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Slayer91, that was kind of what I was thinking. Pheonix is a pretty good unit. Especially vs mech imo, since it can lift up tanks and help your ground army advance.
iCCup.Diamond, oh.. how so? Was it not specific enough perhaps? Sorry if that's the case.
TheYango, indeed the versatility of the terran starport is higher than the protoss variant. However, I think that with a supposed "1/1/1" you would have access too immortals/warp prisms along with phoenix to provide some fast movement and harass options, possibly allowing more map control.
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On July 08 2010 22:57 Ullis wrote:
iCCup.Diamond, oh.. how so? Was it not specific enough perhaps? Sorry if that's the case.
Rule #1 and #4
As for the strategy there is no way you can have the gas to support that. You would have to expand before this build could function. But you would still want to get 2+ Gateway's before you add in the third tech tree.
Gas is key for a Protoss and you need 3-4 gas geysers to support all three tech trees.
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I thought part of the versatility of the 1/1/1 for Terran is that all three buildings can share addons. That way you can mix and match reactors and tech labs to do whatever you want. Allows you to pump double units or tech units out of any of the structures allowing for a really varied response.
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On July 08 2010 23:01 Takkara wrote:
I thought part of the versatility of the 1/1/1 for Terran is that all three buildings can share addons. That way you can mix and match reactors and tech labs to do whatever you want. Allows you to pump double units or tech units out of any of the structures allowing for a really varied response.
This is a good point too. Switching tech patterns is REALLY hard for a Protoss. For Zerg is gravy (everything comes from Larva), and for Terran have add-ons to allow extra production when needed and quick tech switches.
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Protoss units and robotics factory + robo bay are more expensive than terran units and buildings, making 1-1-1 will spread your forces too thin and the functionality of your army can not make up for it. Its a good concept, but it dies to anything not 1-1-1 from the other side (ie my game vs Kawaiirice when I went voidray-dt and he just 4-raxed attack moved me and won.
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More of a timing problem then anything. You're going to need more then one gateway's worth of units while waiting for your core THEN robo/stargates to finish as well as committing 350/250 into the robo/stargate fairly early in the game, you'd be behind in forces on 1 gate and hard pressed to operate 2 gates while teching like this.
For many reasons, I see toss sticking primarily to multi-gates and robo plays early on. I haven't seen stargates and stargate units massed to any major extent so far, largely due to the harass nature of the pheonix, cost of voidray, and general uselessness to the rest of protoss air. I'd love to see some replay if those are availible.
It's at least a good thing that the primary gate/robo plays can be fairly diverse.
EDIT: Stargate not starport, I'm retarded.
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The ability to swap add-ons onto the newly completed building is also one of the reasons it works for Terran. You are able to start building your tech units immediately without the addition of an additional structure (not that there are THAT many for Protoss).
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On July 08 2010 22:30 Ullis wrote:
Hi,
For some time while the beta has been down I've had lucid and very vivid mushroom dreams about SC2. And in one of them I had a thought.
Why couldn't Protoss go something similiar to Terrans 1/1/1 build? Now I'm no high level diamond player by any means, in fact I never played SC1/BW and only played the SC2 beta a while but got top gold or so.
Since in general playing reactively seems like a good idea why not open up with a broad variety of choices?
What would make terran more suitable to go 1/1/1 than protoss?
I could see a mid game push with some units from each building structure working quite fine (something like zealot/immortal/phoenix).
Anyway, was just curious what you all thought of it.
Cheers.
PS. I Know, different races, different strategies. Doesn't mean we shouldn't experiment.
1/1/1 takes too long and too much resources to build up as P compared to the T build. You'd end up being too vulnerable to pushes. Not only this, P's tech trees are more specialized than T's.
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On July 08 2010 23:10 Paramore wrote:
Protoss units and robotics factory + robo bay are more expensive than terran units and buildings, making 1-1-1 will spread your forces too thin and the functionality of your army can not make up for it. Its a good concept, but it dies to anything not 1-1-1 from the other side (ie my game vs Kawaiirice when I went voidray-dt and he just 4-raxed attack moved me and won.
Exactly. Additionally, protoss, more than terran or zerg, NEEDS tier 3 units (colossi/high templar) to compete in the mid to late game. Delaying these techs by getting all the tier 2 stuff first exposes the protoss to terran bio-rape and zerg hydra-rape.
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I think this is about
/thread
Appreciate all the replies though. I'm going to play around with it and see if I can come up with anything substantial..
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you cant blindly decide I want such and such upgrades at such and such timing. You have to look at how effective that is. For example in BW, each +1 weapon made a tank do +5 damage, with splash, this was fucking huge. And since vultures do full damage to shields and zealots, the 26 damage there doesnt hurt at all. Basically upgrades are super effective for terran vs protoss ( and terran vs zerg too), but its less important for protoss to upgrade vs terran. A protoss out upgrading terran is something you dont often see in BW (The most you see is the flash build counter of keeping pace in upgrades and going for large 200/200 fight with arbs and storm.
A more specific example. zealot in bw kills a ling in 3 hits. zealot with +1 weapons kills a ling in 2 hits (THIS IS A BIG FREAKING DEAL - entire builds are based around it)
You want to look for either timing exploits (If I get this upgrade before him, I can do a really strong timing attack since I need much fewer hits to kill his units) or just abusing the absolute power of the upgrades themselves (BW Terran Mech).
I havent played enough protoss to know whether its worth upgrading for timing exploits or just for general strength of the upgrades, but this is something you need to seriously consider before incorporating this into your main build. You could have made collossi or immortals or another expo with that money instead.
Final point. When you finish a crucial upgrade, ATTACK. If you sit in your base, and let him catch up in upgrades for free (with a better econ because he researched later) you are being DUMB. If you plan to do this, just gg 5 seconds into every game.
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i play 1/1/1 very often in pvp and win maaaaaaany games with that, its great and strong. me gosu
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On July 09 2010 03:07 Urbanspaceman wrote:
i play 1/1/1 very often in pvp and win maaaaaaany games with that, its great and strong. me gosu
You have a lot to learn about TL..........
Either way 1/1/1 is not feasible without a fast expand which would not really make it a 1/1/1 cause it would be so late.
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EPT
