EPT
Poll: What is the issue with Maraduers?
(Vote): Marauder rushes are too strong
(Vote): Marauders are too cost effective
(Vote): They kill Terran diversity
(Vote): Other (please post in thread)
Furthermore, here is an interesting exchange between a few people from this thread.
On April 07 2010 05:10 QibingZero wrote:
A couple things you mention here bring up a relevant note:
I often employ a quick drop/stim strategy on Desert Oasis (though I dislike the map in general), and I find it to be quite effective. I agree that on most maps, this type of thing isn't really that effective. At the very least, on Oasis it keeps the toss occupied while I expand, and the rush distance is so long that even if you lose most of your force you'll have macroed enough by the time the toss army gets to you.
I ended up in such a situation, against Plexa of all people, in a ladder match yesterday, and early zealot charge was actually the deciding factor in him holding off my drop. If he had gone Immortal heavy, the game probably would have been over. Zealots just take so little damage from Marauders, and are very effective as long as you have units that can take shots at the Marauders while they micro away.
Overall on this issue, I think the only problem really is the early game. When it gets to late game, PvT is largely balanced (though small micro mistakes on either side can be game-ending). The issue for Terran is that if you nerf Marauders (even by just requiring another building for them), something has to be done to help out Terran early on. Marines and SCVs have already taken huge hits, and it's difficult enough to micro off early pressure with them now.
In case anyone is wondering here is the replay:
A couple things you mention here bring up a relevant note:
I often employ a quick drop/stim strategy on Desert Oasis (though I dislike the map in general), and I find it to be quite effective. I agree that on most maps, this type of thing isn't really that effective. At the very least, on Oasis it keeps the toss occupied while I expand, and the rush distance is so long that even if you lose most of your force you'll have macroed enough by the time the toss army gets to you.
I ended up in such a situation, against Plexa of all people, in a ladder match yesterday, and early zealot charge was actually the deciding factor in him holding off my drop. If he had gone Immortal heavy, the game probably would have been over. Zealots just take so little damage from Marauders, and are very effective as long as you have units that can take shots at the Marauders while they micro away.
Overall on this issue, I think the only problem really is the early game. When it gets to late game, PvT is largely balanced (though small micro mistakes on either side can be game-ending). The issue for Terran is that if you nerf Marauders (even by just requiring another building for them), something has to be done to help out Terran early on. Marines and SCVs have already taken huge hits, and it's difficult enough to micro off early pressure with them now.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Plexa_vs_QibingZero.sc2replay
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
PvT:
+ Show Spoiler +
TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
So let's decide on what the problem with Marauders are!I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
PvT:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals)
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals)
TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
It's about time we had one of these since they are, without doubt, the least fun unit in the game (along with Roaches, but we'll talk about those another day). This unit is single handedly ruining TvP and 2v2, and probably some other matchups as well. We've had a few discussions already - the marauder cheese, lucifron's boring wins over hasuobs, more marauder issues etc. But now let's tackle to problem in it's entirety, the bottom line is the Marauder is just no fun at all.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
Here's a good counter point from MorroW
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
terran already has a shitload of techbuildings, they spend so much time on tech i think its enough man
this woudlnt change anything, it would just cost the terrans to tweak our bo alittle but nothing big and everything is back to the same
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
all u would acomplish is to add another tech building with 0 upgrades in it afaik, or maybe u want to move all tech lab grades to the academy? its a tech lab its supposed to contain the upgrades... academy has no purpose in sc2 as long as the tech lab is here
terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
terran already has a shitload of techbuildings, they spend so much time on tech i think its enough man
this woudlnt change anything, it would just cost the terrans to tweak our bo alittle but nothing big and everything is back to the same
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
all u would acomplish is to add another tech building with 0 upgrades in it afaik, or maybe u want to move all tech lab grades to the academy? its a tech lab its supposed to contain the upgrades... academy has no purpose in sc2 as long as the tech lab is here
terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
+ Show Spoiler +
Let's look at the stats and how they compare to the Stalker (since PvT is the biggest issue, we'll compare it to the "equivalent" unit for Protoss):
+ Show Spoiler +The jist of this spoiler is the Marauder has the Stalker beat on every single level - except speed (but thats not really important once you factor in stim anyway). Okay, but the Marauder is meant to be counter Stalkers - okay thats fine and dandy but Marauders can easily out micro Zealots which are suppose to counter Marauders!
Furthermore, once the Terran gets to Medivac tech Marauders become even harder to stop since they just heal right back up without a care in the world. That is, unless you have feedback (and then we descend into the debate about ghosts vs templar...). Rather than continue to expound on the issue, let's discuss possible solutions to the problem. Here are some which have come up in the previously linked threads:
- Make slow a research
- Make slow not effect Zealots/Zerglings
- Increase Cost/Change build time
- Remove Stim
Alternatively, in order to make Stalkers more viable against them I would suggest that either Blink becomes an initial ability of the Stalker or is moved to the Cybernetics Core, or that the Range of Marauders is decreased/Range of stalkers increased so that the Stalkers can use their speed and mobility to pick off Marauders before Stim kicks in (when Protoss should really have better options to deal with them like immortals). I personally feel that modifying the stalker in this way, i.e. making it more of a harass unit which frequently makes use of hit and run like Hasuobs demonstrated was possible vs Zerg, is the most interesting solution to the problem since equally well microed protoss should be able to hold it off.
Another possible idea was to reduce the role of the Marauder to a support unit ala the Dryad in War3. Me and mani discussed this idea last night as we got Proxygate/Marauder cheesed a few games in a row. Simply put, if the Marauder was designed to supplement an army rather than be the core of it (like sentries are for Protoss at the moment) then we feel that Terran would become a more interesting race in general and able to exploit all the cool shit like nukes, mech, ravens and whatnot.
Anyway, discuss away. How do we solve the marauder issue?
+ Show Spoiler +
Cost:
Marauder: 100/25, 2 Supply
Stalker: 125/50, 2 Supply
Health:
Marauder: 125
Stalker: 80/80
Build Time
Marauder: 33
Stalker: 42 (28 with Chrono)
(Immortal: 40 (27 with Chrono))
Abilities:
Marauder:
Slow (passive)
Stim (150/150 from Tech Lab)
Stalker:
Blink (150/150 from Twilight Council - extra building)
Damage:
Marauder: 10 +10 vs Armored (+1/+1)
Cooldown: 1.5
Range: 6
Stalker: 10 + 4 vs Armored (+1/+0)
Cooldown: 1.44
Range: 6
Speed:
Marauder: 2.25
Stalker: 2.915
Marauder: 100/25, 2 Supply
Stalker: 125/50, 2 Supply
Health:
Marauder: 125
Stalker: 80/80
Build Time
Marauder: 33
Stalker: 42 (28 with Chrono)
(Immortal: 40 (27 with Chrono))
-orb-
Chrono boost stats need to be fixed. You're making it sound like you can get out stalkers in time to kill marauders when you can't.
Chrono boost is a 50% increase in building speed, not 50% reduction in building time. AKA it's a 25% reduction in building time.
I tested this in a custom game, I can send you the replay if you'd like. It came out as stalker without boost: 42 seconds. With boost: 30 seconds.
Immortal without boost: 40 seconds. WIth boost: 28 seconds.
I have no idea why there was the 2 second discrepancy tho maybe I just recorded or counted wrong. (he didn't apply chrono at the right time)
Either way please fix the OP as if chrono actually worked like this protoss would actually have a chance versus terran proxy 9 rax marauder pushes.
Chrono boost stats need to be fixed. You're making it sound like you can get out stalkers in time to kill marauders when you can't.
Chrono boost is a 50% increase in building speed, not 50% reduction in building time. AKA it's a 25% reduction in building time.
I tested this in a custom game, I can send you the replay if you'd like. It came out as stalker without boost: 42 seconds. With boost: 30 seconds.
Immortal without boost: 40 seconds. WIth boost: 28 seconds.
I have no idea why there was the 2 second discrepancy tho maybe I just recorded or counted wrong. (he didn't apply chrono at the right time)
Either way please fix the OP as if chrono actually worked like this protoss would actually have a chance versus terran proxy 9 rax marauder pushes.
Abilities:
Marauder:
Slow (passive)
Stim (150/150 from Tech Lab)
Stalker:
Blink (150/150 from Twilight Council - extra building)
Damage:
Marauder: 10 +10 vs Armored (+1/+1)
Cooldown: 1.5
Range: 6
Stalker: 10 + 4 vs Armored (+1/+0)
Cooldown: 1.44
Range: 6
Speed:
Marauder: 2.25
Stalker: 2.915
Furthermore, once the Terran gets to Medivac tech Marauders become even harder to stop since they just heal right back up without a care in the world. That is, unless you have feedback (and then we descend into the debate about ghosts vs templar...). Rather than continue to expound on the issue, let's discuss possible solutions to the problem. Here are some which have come up in the previously linked threads:
- Make slow a research
- Make slow not effect Zealots/Zerglings
- Increase Cost/Change build time
- Remove Stim
Alternatively, in order to make Stalkers more viable against them I would suggest that either Blink becomes an initial ability of the Stalker or is moved to the Cybernetics Core, or that the Range of Marauders is decreased/Range of stalkers increased so that the Stalkers can use their speed and mobility to pick off Marauders before Stim kicks in (when Protoss should really have better options to deal with them like immortals). I personally feel that modifying the stalker in this way, i.e. making it more of a harass unit which frequently makes use of hit and run like Hasuobs demonstrated was possible vs Zerg, is the most interesting solution to the problem since equally well microed protoss should be able to hold it off.
Another possible idea was to reduce the role of the Marauder to a support unit ala the Dryad in War3. Me and mani discussed this idea last night as we got Proxygate/Marauder cheesed a few games in a row. Simply put, if the Marauder was designed to supplement an army rather than be the core of it (like sentries are for Protoss at the moment) then we feel that Terran would become a more interesting race in general and able to exploit all the cool shit like nukes, mech, ravens and whatnot.
Anyway, discuss away. How do we solve the marauder issue?
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote:
weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S
And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat).
The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
This is a good post hence why I've edited it into the op. I think DeMusliM has touched on a very important point, and that is that Terran do literally have nothing else going for them at the moment. Any perceived imbalances aside, the Marauder is a very uninteresting unit and there are so many interesting things Terran *could* be doing but can't because it's terrible. It's a pretty sad state of affairs imho.weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S
And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat).
The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
I thought that this post was also pretty interesting:
On April 04 2010 23:34 MorroW wrote:
because mech doesnt work, and thats the real issue. maybe marauders rnt making the game imbalanced, but the way blizzard has it right now is that all terrans r forced to pump really many marauders instead of doing something else which i think is lame as hell. u should be able to pick mech bio or biomech in every match up, but right now its pretty much biomech in tvz, mech tvt and bio tvp, its not very optional and i think the real solution of this is to buff mech and nerf marauders, probably gonna take some patches to make this work tho since its a big change
i lost because im sick and i didnt practice much at all this week, i probably woulda won if i just opened a normal marauder fe and kept on making marauders all game but i really dont see the fun in that :/
another reason im not playing much is just about what we talk about in this subject. its not very fun to play sc2 when tvz is imba and tvp is broken straight up mass marauder, only tvt is fun but it is too revolved around luck, just like the other mirror mus.
because mech doesnt work, and thats the real issue. maybe marauders rnt making the game imbalanced, but the way blizzard has it right now is that all terrans r forced to pump really many marauders instead of doing something else which i think is lame as hell. u should be able to pick mech bio or biomech in every match up, but right now its pretty much biomech in tvz, mech tvt and bio tvp, its not very optional and i think the real solution of this is to buff mech and nerf marauders, probably gonna take some patches to make this work tho since its a big change
i lost because im sick and i didnt practice much at all this week, i probably woulda won if i just opened a normal marauder fe and kept on making marauders all game but i really dont see the fun in that :/
another reason im not playing much is just about what we talk about in this subject. its not very fun to play sc2 when tvz is imba and tvp is broken straight up mass marauder, only tvt is fun but it is too revolved around luck, just like the other mirror mus.
Right or wrong this is a good post
On April 05 2010 20:47 MorroW wrote:
why tanks shouldnt be buffed to compensate for marauder nerf
+ Show Spoiler +
this is why immortal, marauder and roach should be nerfed
+ Show Spoiler +
so for example we could start off by making marauders worse, how would that effect tvz? well for a starters roaches would be a slight too strong i think because marauders were the only unit that really countered the roach appropriately and legit. so we would have to nerf the roach now, but i dont know enough about zvp to say if this would be possible. immortals is the first that comes to mind that would become too strong. ive read 95% of this thread and everyone seem to agree that our 3rd step would be to nerf the immortal. and now when the immortal is also nerfed the tank is better in tvp, alot better.
so maybe this is the answer, nerf the trio of the marauder, roach and immortal. its the best answer i can come up with at least, and it seems to be the general opinion by the community of 19 pages here.
and if they would been nerfed what would actually happen
+ Show Spoiler +
this is why u cant respond a marauder nerf with a removal of stimpack
+ Show Spoiler +
oh and abut the actual nerfs, i wouldnt remove stimpack or remove slow or anything like that. its pretty situational and it would change the effectiveness of marauders worse in different phases of the game.
for example removing stimpack from them would make them totally obsolete in later game, nobody would make them.
and this is why u cant add a slow upgrade for them
+ Show Spoiler +
adding an upgrade for the slow instead of having it by default would just make it worse early game, and discourage defense of marauders or timing attacks in early and early-midgame
the marauder is good in all from early game until late game, so if we would nerf them we would want to do something that effects it all through-out the game.
add 5 seconds to marauder build time
+ Show Spoiler +
the part i dislike most about the marine-marauder comparison right now is that marauders only take 5 more seconds to build than marines, which i think is bogus. the other part that encourages this mass marauder is that reactors take twice as long time as tech labs to build. these r the 2 changes they did in patch 6 i believe and ever since fe tvp with rines doesnt work anymore, fe in tvz is totally impossible. we cant rely on marines in early game anymore, blizzard made a good job at removing them from the early game phase
i would add 5 seconds build time to marauders. it would add a better balance in the time of the units in the rax, the reapers take alot longer time than marauders when they dont cost alot different. marauders cost much more than marines but barely take longer time to build.
decrease the slowing effect
+ Show Spoiler +
the second nerf i would do to the marauders would be to decrease the slow. right now if u have a unit running through the map, a stalker, roach, zea, sentry, you name it man. if u see a marauder u dont have the time to run because the vision is so small while the marauder range is so big that he will get off his first hit. and thats all he need. i think many ppl think its a boring unit because it only needs 1 hit to declare its pray as a dead man. most units can make a run for it, its exciting to see if it can actually get away. a zergling running for his life while stalker run after with micro and blink. but with marauder its just 1 hit then u know its dead, no excitement. we want to nerf the slow enough that units like stalkers can run away from it even under fire, but we dont want to nerf the slow too much that it didnt matter in this scenario. the slow should give us extra 1-3 shots but not slow it until death. i think it gives 50% slow right now, maybe a 33% slow would be better?
immortal +25 vs armored instead of +30
+ Show Spoiler +
the immortal nerf would simply be a less vs armored, instead of +30 vs armored maybe +25. thats a legit and solid change, it doesnt change alot but enough to say its fair.
give roach 1 armor
+ Show Spoiler +
the roach nerf could be as simple as giving it less hp or armor, it already is slow as hell and it already attacks slow with a fairly slow dps. what makes the roach so plain strong is that it has 2 armor, it shuts down damage from marines by 33%, zerglings by 40% and zealots by 25%. it counters low tier units too hard. giving it less hp wouldnt really change this fact so i think the best choice would be to decrease the roach armor by 1
why tanks shouldnt be buffed to compensate for marauder nerf
+ Show Spoiler +
i think its a bad idea to make tanks better to compensate for a possible marauder nerf. tanks r already insanely good. ive played all my lately tvz with tanks as my core unit and they just rip apart a zerg army, only counter seem to be air once u reach about 16 tanks. even tho tanks r not used in tvp i dont think that is because the actual tanks r too bad, i think its because toss has too many counters against them. charge, blink, immortal shield and extra dmg, hell even phonix counters them in a sense.
all im trying to bring to the table with this post is that if u would nerf the marauder, dont compensate it by making the tank better, its already strong as hell against zerg.
u might say to urself "alright so we give it +vs armored when sieged to make it better vs toss and now z". well this is not sc1, toss doesnt necessarily have more armored force than zerg does. the core meatshield are roaches while toss has zealots, so this would actually make tanks even more t>z than t>p. i think our goal is to make tanks better against toss but at the same time i can tell there is no way u can buff the tank to fix this issue. the only way we can do this is to make toss counters to the tank worse.
all im trying to bring to the table with this post is that if u would nerf the marauder, dont compensate it by making the tank better, its already strong as hell against zerg.
u might say to urself "alright so we give it +vs armored when sieged to make it better vs toss and now z". well this is not sc1, toss doesnt necessarily have more armored force than zerg does. the core meatshield are roaches while toss has zealots, so this would actually make tanks even more t>z than t>p. i think our goal is to make tanks better against toss but at the same time i can tell there is no way u can buff the tank to fix this issue. the only way we can do this is to make toss counters to the tank worse.
this is why immortal, marauder and roach should be nerfed
+ Show Spoiler +
so for example we could start off by making marauders worse, how would that effect tvz? well for a starters roaches would be a slight too strong i think because marauders were the only unit that really countered the roach appropriately and legit. so we would have to nerf the roach now, but i dont know enough about zvp to say if this would be possible. immortals is the first that comes to mind that would become too strong. ive read 95% of this thread and everyone seem to agree that our 3rd step would be to nerf the immortal. and now when the immortal is also nerfed the tank is better in tvp, alot better.
so maybe this is the answer, nerf the trio of the marauder, roach and immortal. its the best answer i can come up with at least, and it seems to be the general opinion by the community of 19 pages here.
and if they would been nerfed what would actually happen
+ Show Spoiler +
1: we would probably see more tanks in tvp
2: massing marauders would be worse in tvp, arguably bad
3: roaches wouldnt control the game so much in the early game like they do now, they also wouldnt control the phase and timings of zvz which also seems to be an issue with them. they would still play a role as a meatshield of zerg but they woulndt be as strong against normal units or as weak against immortal which leads to less hard counters
4: tvt wouldnt change alot, obviously it would make marauders worse but they were already just a boost to the army to slow and attack from behind of ur marine line. it would be fine
5: immortals in pvp would get used less, this is bad but i have almost not seen any pvp at all, i hardly imagine immortals were so popular in that mu in the first place so i guess it would be fine
6: marauders would still be used in tvz to meatshield and counter roach like they are now
7: would encourage terrans to use marines more against zerg and zerg would find it more useful to make ling and baneling again. they have been distant of that lately ever since marines got longer build time
2: massing marauders would be worse in tvp, arguably bad
3: roaches wouldnt control the game so much in the early game like they do now, they also wouldnt control the phase and timings of zvz which also seems to be an issue with them. they would still play a role as a meatshield of zerg but they woulndt be as strong against normal units or as weak against immortal which leads to less hard counters
4: tvt wouldnt change alot, obviously it would make marauders worse but they were already just a boost to the army to slow and attack from behind of ur marine line. it would be fine
5: immortals in pvp would get used less, this is bad but i have almost not seen any pvp at all, i hardly imagine immortals were so popular in that mu in the first place so i guess it would be fine
6: marauders would still be used in tvz to meatshield and counter roach like they are now
7: would encourage terrans to use marines more against zerg and zerg would find it more useful to make ling and baneling again. they have been distant of that lately ever since marines got longer build time
this is why u cant respond a marauder nerf with a removal of stimpack
+ Show Spoiler +
oh and abut the actual nerfs, i wouldnt remove stimpack or remove slow or anything like that. its pretty situational and it would change the effectiveness of marauders worse in different phases of the game.
for example removing stimpack from them would make them totally obsolete in later game, nobody would make them.
and this is why u cant add a slow upgrade for them
+ Show Spoiler +
adding an upgrade for the slow instead of having it by default would just make it worse early game, and discourage defense of marauders or timing attacks in early and early-midgame
the marauder is good in all from early game until late game, so if we would nerf them we would want to do something that effects it all through-out the game.
add 5 seconds to marauder build time
+ Show Spoiler +
the part i dislike most about the marine-marauder comparison right now is that marauders only take 5 more seconds to build than marines, which i think is bogus. the other part that encourages this mass marauder is that reactors take twice as long time as tech labs to build. these r the 2 changes they did in patch 6 i believe and ever since fe tvp with rines doesnt work anymore, fe in tvz is totally impossible. we cant rely on marines in early game anymore, blizzard made a good job at removing them from the early game phase
i would add 5 seconds build time to marauders. it would add a better balance in the time of the units in the rax, the reapers take alot longer time than marauders when they dont cost alot different. marauders cost much more than marines but barely take longer time to build.
decrease the slowing effect
+ Show Spoiler +
the second nerf i would do to the marauders would be to decrease the slow. right now if u have a unit running through the map, a stalker, roach, zea, sentry, you name it man. if u see a marauder u dont have the time to run because the vision is so small while the marauder range is so big that he will get off his first hit. and thats all he need. i think many ppl think its a boring unit because it only needs 1 hit to declare its pray as a dead man. most units can make a run for it, its exciting to see if it can actually get away. a zergling running for his life while stalker run after with micro and blink. but with marauder its just 1 hit then u know its dead, no excitement. we want to nerf the slow enough that units like stalkers can run away from it even under fire, but we dont want to nerf the slow too much that it didnt matter in this scenario. the slow should give us extra 1-3 shots but not slow it until death. i think it gives 50% slow right now, maybe a 33% slow would be better?
immortal +25 vs armored instead of +30
+ Show Spoiler +
the immortal nerf would simply be a less vs armored, instead of +30 vs armored maybe +25. thats a legit and solid change, it doesnt change alot but enough to say its fair.
give roach 1 armor
+ Show Spoiler +
the roach nerf could be as simple as giving it less hp or armor, it already is slow as hell and it already attacks slow with a fairly slow dps. what makes the roach so plain strong is that it has 2 armor, it shuts down damage from marines by 33%, zerglings by 40% and zealots by 25%. it counters low tier units too hard. giving it less hp wouldnt really change this fact so i think the best choice would be to decrease the roach armor by 1
. whilst doing something else to make terran mech more viable. It's really hard to say what, and im not gona even try here cos i dont know enough about tvz, hell taking away marauders slow will probably break that mu anyway, so its tough.
