EPT[!] Pro Terran Strategy Q/A - Page 8
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Sp4cem4nSpiff
United States46 Posts
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Sp4cem4nSpiff
United States46 Posts
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NiNjAPlation
United States85 Posts
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ShnAndrei
Romania164 Posts
Thanks a lot for the replay tips! I think I will go with MVP's TvZ builds@IEM in which he opened straight into bio, and when I will get to the necessary level of multitasking, I will move on to the hellion-banshee opening. You wrote earlier, regarding TvT: "A much safer opening against almost any 1 base play is Rax cc double gas depot fact port, getting reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, and making marine/tank/viking." This seems like an awesome TvT build to try. I always wanted to do a FE but I was afraid of my opponent getting fast tanks with vikings and just stepping over me. But this seems rather safe to try. Could you please point me to a replay in which this was carried out? P.S. Thanks a lot for this fantastic thread! If every top player shared his tips and secrets with the rest of the community the way you do, we would have faced a whole other level of gameplay and skill on ladder. I think this is the most interresting thread I've ever read on teamliquid.net. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 02 2012 05:36 Whatson wrote: Is marauder hellion actually a viable unit composition in the early game TvP? I know in theory the hellions can kill the zealots so the marauders can kill the stalkers/sentries. If it is, are there any specific scenarios where its better than regular bio? Hellion/Marauder is a pressure opening (there are all-ins variations though, especially against Nexus first), you can find a guide here. Usually this kind of pressure build is used in a BoX series because Protoss cannot know for sure what you're up to upon scouting you went 13 gas. | ||
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dOraWa
Korea (South)53 Posts
Which build order(s) with cloak and without cloak would you recommend? Any replays you can direct me to? Thanks  | ||
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Jermman
Canada174 Posts
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Natespank
Canada449 Posts
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Sianos
580 Posts
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Natespank
Canada449 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On August 27 2012 14:06 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Which way is currently the definitive TvT style? I have not seen very many TvT's lately so I do not really know which styles are popular now. I still play a very outdated marine-tank style. Also, as a side note, when is God of the Battlefield Part Two coming out? Foreigners primarily go rax cc 2 rax double gas into medivacs, start tanks, then 3rd cc. Koreans have many different one base gimmick builds but in general almost everyone will transition into marine/tank on 3 base. On August 28 2012 09:14 NewbieOne wrote: Easier question, I hope: What's with all those CC first TvZ openings at IEM (this), how come the Zergs don't kill them off for that? On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch. On August 29 2012 02:36 NewbieOne wrote: So a tournament Zerg can be taken for granted to go 15 hatch but what about ladder Zergs? Or is the advantage from going CC first over a one-basing Zerg so high at a certain level of play that a one-base Zerg push will generally not break a CC first Terran? Yeah, I know that game, it was lovely! Thanks for bringing it up, it's so uplifting to think about it, lol. On August 29 2012 02:42 Teoita wrote: I don't play terran so i might be wrong on this, but opening 6pool is suicide against anything that is not a cc first afaik. A cheesy ladder zerg will more likely roach/bane bust you or something like along those lines. Ver or any other high level terran would have to confirm that. I am pretty sure that any 1base allin that can punish cc first would have to be done blindly, and i'm pretty sure it would also be bad against anything but cc first and crazy stuff like proxy 11/11. Don't quote me on that though. 6 pool is a really awful opener and should never be used, as in general anything will beat it. I'm pretty sure if you pull scvs early enough and you rax cc you can hold the 6 pool anyway.. 10 pool auto beats cc first and can kill rax cc too if they hide the rax to make the Zerg think it's 2 rax. If they 6 pool and don't bring drones you should be able to just win with scvs while hiding a rax if they kill the ramp rax. If they bring drones you just do that Taeja does. On August 29 2012 03:07 TheDwf wrote: No, 6 pool + drone pull can also win 1 rax FE before second Depot, especially if the Terran built his first two buildings as part of the wall. The Zerg surrounds and attacks your Barracks, preventing your first Marine from escaping, and then all you have left is 15 SCVs and a flying Barracks. I guess you can then react like CC first, i. e. running away with your SCVs and splitting them in order to try to sneak a Barracks/Bunker somewhere to land your CC/OC (don't know if it's better to cancel the OC or not), but now we enter into unexplored areas; the two times I saw this, the Korean Terrans facing this 6-pool all-in tried to fight with 15 SCVs against Zerglings/Drones and of course lost. From my experience, which might be flawed, as I usually face 6 pool with 14cc more than rax cc, you should be able to pull your scvs when the marine spawns and force the ling/drone off and then be able to surround your marine like you did in bw while making a bunker back in the min line as soon as rax completes, but this might not be reliable. On August 29 2012 02:58 Gyro_SC2 wrote: In tvz are you force to do a hellion-banshee pressure? There is not a lot of possibility like: 1-hellion + marauder 2-hellion + marine? 3-marine (combat shield or stim) 4-marine + fast-medivac (maybe too late) 5-marine + marauder 6-hellion + banshee 7-2rax 8-2 hidden starport banshee (look allin for me) 1. Doesn't work anymore. 2. Doesn't work if they're good. 3. No 4. No. 5. Definitely not. 6. Yes. 7. Yes 8. ....no Basically after talking about this with Sheth and Suppy, on non cloud kingdom maps your options come down to: one of the 3 hellion/banshee openings + Forward/proxy 11/11 (3 scvs not super allin). Forward 12/14 is not totally impractical either, though it's questionable if it's as good as the other two. On Cloud Kingdom where Zerg can't scout you have more options, namely 2 base bio/blue flame timing attacks like what Binski used vs Leenock at MLG on that map, and it makes some of the above a little possible but still not very good if the Zerg plays it a bit safe. The other 2 base timings are also a little more possible because Zerg can't auto beat them by scouting and perfect drone timing but it's still too easy to hold with proper flanks. On August 29 2012 05:16 Gyro_SC2 wrote: What is the best thing to do (timing, composition) vs a zerg who go 2 base fast infestor when I want to go biotank (I just want to say that I don't mech)? Macro, more base? Drop ? ghost? big tankrine push? 2 base infestor is a bad build in general. You'll want to make sure to turret the natural though to stop burrowed infestors from walking in because some gimmicky Zergs will try that. You aren't really thinking about this correctly though, as you should already be doing some kind of 2 rax or hellion/banshee opening and jumping up to triple cc. You can be much more aggressive against 2 base infestor and limit their creep a lot easier, as their army will be weak and they have limited offensive potential. You also want to mix in some marauders into your army composition to sit in the front, tank, and target infestors that walk too far. Ghosts are really only reliable if they go ultras and that's only much later on. On August 29 2012 17:27 netherDrake wrote: I've just faced a few colossus phoenix builds on the korean ladder (mid-high masters) and I'd like to know what approach you'd use against it. Here are two questions I have: 1) Would you recommend a 2 prong attack (3-4 medivac drop and another attack with bio+vikings) against phoenix colossus if I manage to deny vision? (since the phoenixes and colossus have to be together or toss risks being overrun by a strong head on attack) 2) Gas spending - would it be better to get my 2/2 faster or focus my gas towards mass vikings? (would the addition of 3 ghosts instead of 4 vikings fare better against such a composition) I haven't actually played against this style before and it doesn't really see the light in competitive play (if you have any please link me) so any advice would be appreciated. The way to beat colo/phoenix 100% reliably is turtling until maxed on 3 base with double port viking and getting ghosts. You can get 2/2 and double port viking, those are not mutually exclusive. Don't bother dropping: it's far too risky and little reward, unless he tries some early 2 base allin and you know where his phoenix are. In that 200 battle you just emp their phoenix and focus fire colo with vikings and they just wasted tons of money for nothing, meaning you win very easily. On August 30 2012 10:28 SHODAN wrote: Are you kidding? Tank openings in TvZ are excellent. Gumiho opens with tanks all the time. The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax. This is one wall banelings will think twice about busting. Tank openings set you up for a strong midgame, either to defend early mining at your third, or to be very aggressive during 1-1. I'm 1300+ EU master and could post some of my TvZ replays if anyone's interested. GSTL Season 2, Gumiho vs. Seal WCS Korea, Gumiho vs. Soulkey WCS Korea, Gumiho vs. Effort Excellent as in...puts Gumiho far behind every single game the Zerg doesn't blindly allin him? I'm glad you were taking this from a top Terran's games but if you actually look Soulkey played it reasonably well and Gumiho got way behind just from the opening and had to come back from a big deficit. Hellion/banshee already makes you impervious against the same allins anyway, and actually lets you apply pressure, kill drones, and limit their creep. Any remotely decent Zerg is going to have creep to your ramp on a normal map if you do this because you simply can't attack early enough. If they have creep to your natural that means you have to blind coinflip whether they are hive rushing and what timing and risk losing the game if you push too fast and they maxed on a lair army (marineking vs hyun, entombed, ipl 5 kor regional). Getting behind in TvZ is almost a sure loss against a really solid Zerg (which is why Taeja wins: he never gets behind), and this build will put you behind against every non-allin Zerg build, even 2 hatch muta. On August 30 2012 17:44 kollin wrote: Ver if I do bombers build in tvp is it better to go 2 reactors 1 tech lab or 2 tech labs 1 reactor. I know most pros go 2 reactors 1 tech lab, but I don't know if my micro is good enough against collosus. So which one should a low level player go? Most pros, including bomber, go 2 tech labs. 2 reactor is only really good against upgrade based builds and has a definite weakness vs Colossus. On August 30 2012 19:02 Targe wrote: Hey there Ver, at the moment versus protoss I tend to 1 Rax FE into 2 naked rax and one tech lab however I've seen a variation where you go 2 reactor 1 tech lab and then go for some agression earlier on. From what I can see the reactors will delay all your tech by 100 gas, so stim becomes later and in turn factories and eventually medivacs (I usually go for a 10 minute push with MMM) however you gain an extra 2 marines per cycle. Is there anything I've left out that you would be able to point out, and do you think the 2 reactor is worth switching to? (Baring in mind that it's purpose is to put on some aggression before the 10 minute mark) Thanks if you can help! This is my most feared matchup atm! I don't think I've ever seen that actually. That doesn't make much sense tbh. Delaying your sitm is never wise and the only value of this would be to coinflip Protosses who are being excessively greedy, which you can do anyway with Demuslims 4 rax combat shield or 5 rax no gas. The normal variation is much stronger, as stim and medivacs are more important. You can't put on aggression before medivacs if the Protoss is not playing greedy. On August 30 2012 22:50 Vronti wrote: Thanks for this thread Ver, excellent info. I have more generic question about build order in general, specifically in regards to how the different ladders (KR vs EU vs NA etc) function and the players they produce. I've read quite a bit recently on how the Korean players (and Terrans specifically) are simply on a higher level than the EU and NA Terrans, whereas Protoss and Zerg are a bit more on equal footing (no doubt you saw the thread). Assuming this is true, part of the reason people accounted for the difference was because they were not afraid to do agressive all-in/cheese builds. Now I'm pretty sure that at lower levels trying to macro will get you farther than all-ins or cheese, but at higher levels of the game (I'm gold league, talking about diamond+ here), would mixing in a lot more reactionary styles or all-ins etc help you improve more than just 1 rax FEing or the equivalent every game? When and why do you add in a non-macro game on ladder or in competition? Korean ladder is better in every way than NA (which has improved a lot) and EU. You actually get garbage TvT practice outside of Korean ladder, as foreigner Terrans don't know how to scv cut. So yes, this is true. The gap between Kor T/Foreigner T and the equivalent from other races is much larger. This is mostly due to Korean Terrans being more willing to coinflip/rely on luck based allins to win, and Terran being so utterly unforgiving. Terran can compete but only if they can go through the game without ever getting behind (which is why Taeja wins). Foreigner Terrans don't have that extreme solidity in their play. In addition, Terran really has only survived until this point by creativity, and Korean Terrans are much more creative than foreigners. Other races don't need to innovate as much, so this effect is less pronounced. The allins question is difficult q to answer. 1 year ago Terran allins and gimmick builds were incredibly strong and a lot of Terran players were really successful because of it. Now you almost can never win with this kind of play against Zerg and it's much weaker against Protosses too in general. So no, practicing macro builds is the way to go now. It's worth it to practice a couple allins but they also require a lot less practice too, which means most of your time should be on macor builds. On September 04 2012 00:46 Natespank wrote: Ver could use a few other pros to back him up in this thread, from the look of it so far. Lot of questions. Sorry this weekend was very busy. Will catch up within the next 2 days! | ||
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OrangeNinja21
United States84 Posts
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reikai
United States359 Posts
Korean ladder is better in every way than NA (which has improved a lot) and EU. You actually get garbage TvT practice outside of Korean ladder, as foreigner Terrans don't know how to scv cut. So yes, this is true. The gap between Kor T/Foreigner T and the equivalent from other races is much larger. This is mostly due to Korean Terrans being more willing to coinflip/rely on luck based allins to win, and Terran being so utterly unforgiving. Terran can compete but only if they can go through the game without ever getting behind (which is why Taeja wins). Foreigner Terrans don't have that extreme solidity in their play. In addition, Terran really has only survived until this point by creativity, and Korean Terrans are much more creative than foreigners. Other races don't need to innovate as much, so this effect is less pronounced. What did you mean by this? 1) Can you give some examples of a proper SCV cut? Is it only a current meta thing, where 1 base openings are prevalent? 2) KOR Terrans are using coinflip builds..... only because Terran it self is unforgiving? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're talking about TvT here. 3) Is there a "science" behind Korean coinflip builds? Why would they take such huge risks like that? Is it because the coin is "weighted," so to speak, in their favor? NA 1200 master Terran TT PS I love this thread btw :D | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
1) As the meching player, when is a good time to switch to sky terran? - I tend to play too passively and sit around my 4th, only to realise all my tanks are dead weight when BCs and Vikings appear 2) When moving out around 16min (the mid game push), what is a good siege tank count to leave at my 3rd to defend? 3) I've been doing a rather awkward cloak banshee (standard 13 gas timing) into expansion, and I as I get my production started around 8-10 min, I am rather vulunerable to drops - What is a good FE build into mech? Thanks! | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
On August 30 2012 10:28 SHODAN wrote: Are you kidding? Tank openings in TvZ are excellent. Gumiho opens with tanks all the time. The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax. This is one wall banelings will think twice about busting. Tank openings set you up for a strong midgame, either to defend early mining at your third, or to be very aggressive during 1-1. I'm 1300+ EU master and could post some of my TvZ replays if anyone's interested. GSTL Season 2, Gumiho vs. Seal WCS Korea, Gumiho vs. Soulkey WCS Korea, Gumiho vs. Effort Excellent as in...puts Gumiho far behind every single game the Zerg doesn't blindly allin him? I'm glad you were taking this from a top Terran's games but if you actually look Soulkey played it reasonably well and Gumiho got way behind just from the opening and had to come back from a big deficit. Hellion/banshee already makes you impervious against the same allins anyway, and actually lets you apply pressure, kill drones, and limit their creep. Any remotely decent Zerg is going to have creep to your ramp on a normal map if you do this because you simply can't attack early enough. If they have creep to your natural that means you have to blind coinflip whether they are hive rushing and what timing and risk losing the game if you push too fast and they maxed on a lair army (marineking vs hyun, entombed, ipl 5 kor regional). Getting behind in TvZ is almost a sure loss against a really solid Zerg (which is why Taeja wins: he never gets behind), and this build will put you behind against every non-allin Zerg build, even 2 hatch muta. Impervious, really? I think you've been watching too many day9 vods. Zerg can open with 7 roach pressure in a given style to DRG. It hits just as your starport finishes (a full minute before your 1st banshee). 7 roach rush shuts down hellion pressure and can kill a lot of SCVs. Zerg can open roach/bane allin and with sheer numbers do unrecoverable damage to your economy. It doesn't matter how well you control (this is how MKP has lost a number of games). The theory that "hellions kill the lings, banshees deal with everything else" is not enough. Terrans can only be "impervious" to Z allins if they a) make a tank, or b) make marauders & bunkers, and c) wall off natural choke with raxx (depot walls don't cut it). As for Gumiho and his excellent tank build, well... clearly you are convinced that Taeja's way is the only way (again, too many day9 vods?)  . They might not have an 80% winrate at the moment, but terrans like Gumiho, MVP, Bomber and MMA show us that passive TvZ openings can work too. Look at how MMA opens with an economy-heavy build, then crushes Violet with beautifully executed drop play and a 2-2 push. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67631/?set=3&lang= | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
They could perform mostly the same role as Hellions but have the advantage of jumping cliffs and getting a full scout on what Zerg is doing. Reapers aren't as fast as Speedlings until Nitro Packs but cliff jumping may alleviate this a bit. Since Reapers don't require as many minerals you could still expand early. Since the first Reaper should show up around 4 minutes (and 4:30 in Zerg's base) you should be able to scout any sort of Roach/Baneling pressure coming. They do delay tech due to their gas cost so tanks/thors will probably be a bit late. Could Reapers work or would I be better off doing 12/14 rax? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 04 2012 16:29 SHODAN wrote: Impervious, really? I think you've been watching too many day9 vods. Zerg can open with 7 roach pressure in a given style to DRG. It hits just as your starport finishes (a full minute before your 1st banshee). 7 roach rush shuts down hellion pressure and can kill a lot of SCVs. Zerg can open roach/bane allin and with sheer numbers do unrecoverable damage to your economy. It doesn't matter how well you control (this is how MKP has lost a number of games). The theory that "hellions kill the lings, banshees deal with everything else" is not enough. Terrans can only be "impervious" to Z allins if they a) make a tank, or b) make marauders & bunkers, and c) wall off natural choke with raxx (depot walls don't cut it). As for Gumiho and his excellent tank build, well... clearly you are convinced that Taeja's way is the only way (again, too many day9 vods?) . They might not have an 80% winrate at the moment, but terrans like Gumiho, MVP, Bomber and MMA show us that passive TvZ openings can work too. Look at how MMA opens with an economy-heavy build, then crushes Violet with beautifully executed drop play and a 2-2 push. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67631/?set=3&lang=Yes, handling Zerg agression with Hellions and Banshees can be very difficult, but playing triple OC Tanks is basically praying for this agression to come, which is neither good play nor a good way to think. As already stated, there is zero threat associated with fast Tanks, so Zerg is free to do whatever he wants. As a result, you will face 75 drones at the 10' mark, 11 minuts Hive and creep poking your third at the 12' or 13' mark (late Medivacs = no map presence) while you can only max by the 14' mark (any push with 3-4 Tanks before is a huge committment which can easily be crushed reactively by the Zerg if he doesn't already have enough to deal with it—remember how 3 Tanks pushes after Reactor Hellion expands faded away?) and have zero way to know how much army he made yet. By the time you reach his fourth his tier3 will be ready to crush your push and you will be stuck with a CC hopelessly flying above your fourth while waiting the few years it takes for creep to recede. Why would you make Zerg play so comfortable (I mean, for him it's like playing against a computer for 14 minuts, or at least 10...) while having zero advantage compared to standard openings which do carry threats? Unless you face more agressive openings from Zerg than standard play there is no real reason to use triple OC tanks openings. On September 04 2012 16:59 Thezzy wrote: Do you think a Reaper opening (more than 1 Reaper) is viable in TvZ? They could perform mostly the same role as Hellions but have the advantage of jumping cliffs and getting a full scout on what Zerg is doing. No, Reapers are nowhere close to Hellions when it comes to map control. Reapers are terrible against Speedlings and they're way less threatening for the Zerg. And even if you scout some kind of agression coming, you're not even guaranteed to have the tools ready to deal with it since playing without Hellions, Banshees or Tanks makes you vulnerable to various busts. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
On September 04 2012 20:53 TheDwf wrote: Yes, handling Zerg agression with Hellions and Banshees can be very difficult, but playing triple OC Tanks is basically praying for this agression to come, which is neither good play nor a good way to think. As already stated, there is zero threat associated with fast Tanks, so Zerg is free to do whatever he wants. As a result, you will face 75 drones at the 10' mark, 11 minuts Hive and creep poking your third at the 12' or 13' mark (late Medivacs = no map presence) while you can only max by the 14' mark (any push with 3-4 Tanks before is a huge committment which can easily be crushed reactively by the Zerg if he doesn't already have enough to deal with it—remember how 3 Tanks pushes after Reactor Hellion expands faded away?) and have zero way to know how much army he made yet. By the time you reach his fourth his tier3 will be ready to crush your push and you will be stuck with a CC hopelessly flying above your fourth while waiting the few years it takes for creep to recede. Why would you make Zerg play so comfortable (I mean, for him it's like playing against a computer for 14 minuts, or at least 10...) while having zero advantage compared to standard openings which do carry threats? Unless you face more agressive openings from Zerg than standard play there is no real reason to use triple OC tanks openings. No, Reapers are nowhere close to Hellions when it comes to map control. Reapers are terrible against Speedlings and they're way less threatening for the Zerg. And even if you scout some kind of agression coming, you're not even guaranteed to have the tools ready to deal with it since playing without Hellions, Banshees or Tanks makes you vulnerable to various busts. I'll try to explain the strategy behind triple OC tanks, and economy-heavy builds in general. Early tanks allow you to play as economy-heavy as possible. It lets you take a faster 3rd OC, faster 3rd and 4th gas, and faster upgrades (double engi bay at 6:50). Your early tank count then allows you to land your third much faster (9:30 mark), take the 5th and 6th gas faster, start 2-2 much faster. By 11:00 you will have 1 viking and 2 medivacs. After the viking has finished clearing nearby overlords, you use it as a spotter to track the location of his army. 2 medivacs and 16 supply of bio can freely clear up creep, then lift-off when you're in danger. This also opens up the threat of drops, whether you choose to commit to them or not. At the 13:30 mark, you will be at 180 supply, 6-7 tanks, 4 medivacs, 2-2 finished, 10 naked raxx, 1 with a techlab (only add reactors after you start 3-3). You attack at 2-2, shut down Z's fourth if it exists, trade well with his army and keep trading... I don't rely on gimmicky shit to get an early advantage over zerg. I try to outplay Z in the midgame with core units, drops, and tank lines. Z can safely make 75 drones no matter what opening you do. What really matters is gas, and Z can never have more gas than you if you opt for an economy-heavy build. I have taken wins from GM zergs with this build. 3OC/tank is working at code S levels of play. It's fairly standard stuff. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 05 2012 01:29 SHODAN wrote: I'll try to explain the strategy behind triple OC tanks, and economy-heavy builds in general. Early tanks allow you to play as economy-heavy as possible. It lets you take a faster 3rd OC, faster 3rd and 4th gas, and faster upgrades (double engi bay at 6:50). Your early tank count then allows you to land your third much faster (9:30 mark), take the 5th and 6th gas faster, start 2-2 much faster. By 11:00 you will have 1 viking and 2 medivacs. After the viking has finished clearing nearby overlords, you use it as a spotter to track the location of his army. 2 medivacs and 16 supply of bio can freely clear up creep, then lift-off when you're in danger. This also opens up the threat of drops, whether you choose to commit to them or not. At the 13:30 mark, you will be at 180 supply, 6-7 tanks, 4 medivacs, 2-2 finished, 10 naked raxx, 1 with a techlab (only add reactors after you start 3-3). You attack at 2-2, shut down Z's fourth if it exists, trade well with his army and keep trading... I don't rely on gimmicky shit to get an early advantage over zerg. I try to outplay Z in the midgame with core units, drops, and tank lines. Z can safely make 75 drones no matter what opening you do. What really matters is gas, and Z can never have more gas than you with an economy-heavy build. I know perfectly well both the reasoning and the benchmarks since, as stated some pages ago, I used to play this kind of build. Of course Zerg will reach 75 drones, that's not the point—the question is how much time until he gets that, and how much he has to dedicate to his defence. With triple OC tanks answers are “as fast as possible” and “zero,” which is not good since both creep and Zerg economy are exponential. You might not like Hellions/Banshees openings but at least they don't allow Zergs to reach 3-bases saturation uncontested. Zergs have to be careful against Hellion openings, they have to get Spores against Banshees follows-ups, they can't just sit at the edge of the creep with their extra Queens and allocate all their energy to new Creep Tumors. There's no doubt you hit a powerful 200 2/2 max army by the 14' mark, but it doesn't matter since creep prevents you from using it to its full potency, thus allowing the Zerg to welcome you with unchallenged BLs or 5/3 Ultralisks. Not saying this build will auto-lose but Zergs should definitely have the advantage against it should they go standard macro. | ||
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