It's not new. Foreigners have always lost to Koreans because of the work ethic. Nobody that played outside of Korean practicing schedule has won a tournament since the Koreans came over, except Stephano and Idra, both of which are the best of the foreigners.
By the way, the statistics look like some of their ladder ratios on NA and EU lol. Pretty sick.
On January 09 2012 14:44 Al Bundy wrote: Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
Firstly, please note that nowhere did I say that there was a big skill gap, nor did I say Naniwa got crushed.
Secondly as you said, some foreigners can perform well vs. Koreans, and this is great as well as entertaining. But how many of these foreigners can consistently beat the Koreans? Lewan72 has a point here. I think at the end of the day we have to concede the fact that there is a skill gap, and even if it's not that big, it definitely exists.
On January 09 2012 14:57 Mohdoo wrote: Lots of good foreigners were absent. Lots of good Koreans attended. These statistics are accurate, but they do NOTHING to show current dominance or skill progression. I'd consider this thread to be rather lame and uninformative, TBH.
This is such a ridiculous statement. I could just as easily say lots of good foreigners attended and the vast majority of good Koreans were absent. Very mediocre Koreans attended and defeated top foreigners pretty handily.
Think about the situation in reverse. What happens when you throw a handful of top top foreigners in a bigger pool of mediocre Koreans? The "top foreigners" have trouble making it past the first few rounds.
Koreans are way better. They've demonstrated dominance since early 2011. Top foreigners may take games or Bo3s against Koreans, but NO foreigner is anywhere near the level required to win a Korean title, whereas if you throw a decent Code A Korean in with a pool of 31 top foreigners for a 32 man tournament, the Code A Korean is probably a favorite to win.
i kind of expected this, esp with some of the "big name" foreigners missing because they have more important tournaments to be attending shortly (GSL) i.e huk,idra,sen, nani ect.
i did expect stephano to do alot better than he did.. his play seemed... sloppy to say the least, not that i really root for him generally.
nerchio suprised me, he's certainly improved steadily which i like, i really hope he hasn't reached his skill cap and will continue to become a beast :D
dimaga did about as good as i had expected he will be.. he shows glints of brilliance occasionally and plays pretty solid usually but then there are times where he does a belly flop into the pool. I cant really comment as to why he does this but it reminds me of idra actually.
overall it pretty much went as i expected it to.. not that that is what i want. i want more october revolutions damnit!
On January 09 2012 14:57 Mohdoo wrote: Lots of good foreigners were absent. Lots of good Koreans attended. These statistics are accurate, but they do NOTHING to show current dominance or skill progression. I'd consider this thread to be rather lame and uninformative, TBH.
Wow...Nerchio, Stephano, Thorzain, Ret, and Dimaga are all TOP foreigners. If you want to argue with me I can go through and list out all their tournament credentials and compare them to other top foreign players. Just because foreigners got rolled and the likes of Huk, Naniwi, and Sen weren't there, doesn't meant there were no top foreigners. The ignorance in some of these arguments is astounding.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination.
On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote: i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
How is "top 5 korean protoss" not top tier? And until he consistently proves himself in Korea he cannot be considered at that level.
If Violet can beat MarineKing and Hero and consistently challenge TvZ specialists like Ganzi, I doubt he is mediocre.
let me rephrase, violet is a mediocre KOREAN zerg. and just so you won't whine, i'll list the tier 1 zergs for you: 1. nestea (3 time gsl winner, blizzcon 2nd place, blizzard cup), 2. leenock (mlg providence 1st place, gsl nov 2nd place, blizzard cup). 3. drg (iem ny 1st place, mlg providence 3rd, blizzard cup 2nd) 4. losira (gsl july 2nd place, mlg 2nd place) 5. july (fell to code a for the first time this season). violet's peak was in code s july and august and he never even got out of the round of 32. he is a good player. but there is definitely better korean zerg players than him. not so much for hero.
and top 5 korean protoss is not top tier because..... wait i'm not gonna even try to explain. ill let MC explain for me. skip to 31:30 and MAYBE you will understand that being a top 5 korean protoss does not make you top tier in their country.
HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
The foreign players that attended weren't the absolute best cream of the crop ones either, but Nerchio, Stephano, Ret, Socke, Thorzain, Dimaga are probably at least on the same level amongst foreigners as MC is amongst Koreans. Again, as much as HuK, Idra, and Naniwa might be fan favourites, their results - both in Korea and outside of it - aren't exactly much better than those of Stephano or Thorzain. Naniwa is 1-12 in Korea, for god's sake.
I remember the days when TSL 3 was played. Damn the non-korean community went beserk and happy that SC2 will finally be balanced in terms of wins vs Korean players. Players like Thorzain seeing the daylight and all.
I think we can all feel good that the SC goods "favor" Koreans after all and the order in the universe is as it should be
On January 09 2012 16:35 Cereb wrote: This is the same **** after each tournament...
Foreigners win: omg skill cap is closing!
Koreans win: omg we have no chance! koreans dominating sc2 all the time every tournament!
And it's litterally after every single tournament as if suddenly all other results became null and void :/
Yeah, pretty much. Though this time it's about the score in matches and games, which is overwhelmingly bad for foreigners. Makes me think that we (foreigners) usually make big noise from a foreigner winning an event, but don't stop to look at the overall event Kr-Fo stats in maps, which usually isn't pretty even when a foreigner becomes the champ or vice-champ.
I still think that the nerves issue is there against Korean players sometimes. People are making small mistakes that add up in games against Koreans. Although their invincibility is challenged and proven false all the time, there is still an aura. I have seen so many experienced, professional non-Korean players make these mistakes, which they probably wouldn't if they were facing one of their own countrymen or just someone on the ladder.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination.
On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote: i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
How is "top 5 korean protoss" not top tier? And until he consistently proves himself in Korea he cannot be considered at that level.
If Violet can beat MarineKing and Hero and consistently challenge TvZ specialists like Ganzi, I doubt he is mediocre.
let me rephrase, violet is a mediocre KOREAN zerg. and just so you won't whine, i'll list the tier 1 zergs for you: 1. nestea (3 time gsl winner, blizzcon 2nd place, blizzard cup), 2. leenock (mlg providence 1st place, gsl nov 2nd place, blizzard cup). 3. drg (iem ny 1st place, mlg providence 3rd, blizzard cup 2nd) 4. losira (gsl july 2nd place, mlg 2nd place) 5. july (fell to code a for the first time this season). violet's peak was in code s july and august and he never even got out of the round of 32. he is a good player. but there is definitely better korean zerg players than him. not so much for hero.
and top 5 korean protoss is not top tier because..... wait i'm not gonna even try to explain. ill let MC explain for me. skip to 31:30 and MAYBE you will understand that being a top 5 korean protoss does not make you top tier in their country.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss.
Hasuobs and KawaiiRice didn't do too great, but considering Kawaii said it took him 16 hours to get there the day before he played in groups it's fairly reasonable?
I want to make an indirect response to this, and slightly off topic too, but drives home a good point about the difference in cultural mentality.
There was a time when it was Kawaii's turn to cast, alongside (Im not sure now who but any 2 of these) moman, mrbitter, incontrol, or dimaga. either incontrol or mrbitter turned to kawaii and told how it took kawaii 16 hours to travel and had just literally got there at the start of the tournament. kawaii replied nonchalantly something like "yeah it was 16 hours or so". then again either incontrol or mrbitter tried to make kawaii elaborate on it, implying something like "you must be tired/you didnt get sellp/practice". kawaii would have none of it. he answered sharply something like "yeah the trip was long coz i didnt come from europe, but i had a good rest as i came the day before". and in truth, dennis said earlier that when kawaii arrived, all energy he had was to crash on the couch and wake up the following day in time for the event. That is the correct attitude. I dont know if it is particularly asian/korean (or american, as kawaii legally is). i remember reading somewhere infernal blaming the travel to wcg as the reason he lost. and he lost to Flash, the best progamer in the world. I mean wow! and the game was not even remotely close. can you imagine how others would have responded if they were in a situation similar to kawaii coming in hsc.
the right attitude and mentality is as crucial to success as skills are!
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
Why are you looking at Dreamhack and NASL results of HerO as a means of comparing his results to other Korean Protoss players, when MC is pretty much the only other Korean Protoss we've ever seen abroad?
His winrate in Korea is something like 40% or less, and most of that is playing vs Code A players; while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S.
MC is a top Korean Protoss because he has an over 60% winrate and is actually able to take a series off the likes of MVP, not because he goes to foreign tournaments and posts funny stuff on twitter. You can't say the same about HerO.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss.
lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins.
On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S.
did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season.
On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote: When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote: Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination.
On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote: i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
How is "top 5 korean protoss" not top tier? And until he consistently proves himself in Korea he cannot be considered at that level.
If Violet can beat MarineKing and Hero and consistently challenge TvZ specialists like Ganzi, I doubt he is mediocre.
let me rephrase, violet is a mediocre KOREAN zerg. and just so you won't whine, i'll list the tier 1 zergs for you: 1. nestea (3 time gsl winner, blizzcon 2nd place, blizzard cup), 2. leenock (mlg providence 1st place, gsl nov 2nd place, blizzard cup). 3. drg (iem ny 1st place, mlg providence 3rd, blizzard cup 2nd) 4. losira (gsl july 2nd place, mlg 2nd place) 5. july (fell to code a for the first time this season). violet's peak was in code s july and august and he never even got out of the round of 32. he is a good player. but there is definitely better korean zerg players than him. not so much for hero.
and top 5 korean protoss is not top tier because..... wait i'm not gonna even try to explain. ill let MC explain for me. skip to 31:30 and MAYBE you will understand that being a top 5 korean protoss does not make you top tier in their country.
I was going to say that putting July in Top 5 Zerg is facepalm-worthy when I realized there aren't that many Zergs to choose from in the first place, lol. Still, no way is he in better shape than, say, Curious at the moment (who suffers from lack of exposure), past accomplishments notwithstanding. I would hesitate to put him ahead of even Lucky or viOlet given July's shape lately, to be honest. viOlet's clearly good -- I think currently he's easily Code A material if he wanted to give the GSL another try -- but he's teamless and ... not even living in Korea atm.
On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote: HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]).
he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b.
The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss.
lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins.
On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S.
did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season.
Wow. lol lets say thats true. That players would rather win WCG then the GSL. Can you not grasp that the gsls format obviously allows for way more preperation then the WCG format. Sigh...
GSL is where you prove you are the best of the best. Everyone knows this. If you don't do well in the GSL then how can people consider you top 5? Even if MVP didn't win WCG, I would still consider him the best player of 2011 because of how well he did in the GSL.
EPT
