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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
 But i do it very map dependent how i open, you can always open gate at the top and then push your forge and cyber on the lowground Erm, if you're opening early gas i'm pretty happy tbh, pretty much most maps have a simcityable natural where i can cannon up and take 2 base on equal footing with zerg, which is pretty much the whole point of this thread - to be economically equal to zerg Your third is gonna be late | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On April 30 2012 04:53 BrTarolg wrote: I know it's (supposedly) been discussed to death but Why are gateway expand openings bad again? I know it's not as good vs very early pool strategies, so thats a risk im taking, but is that it? or am i missing something big here? Does it really hurt your econ so much compared to FFE (you still get your nexus on 17 or so~) that your early zealots simply arn't worth the economic damage you might do forcing lings? If the Z drone scouts you, you are dead. However, alot of Z's don't do that anymore, and you can punish with a Gateway opening like Mc did to Stephano. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On April 30 2012 04:53 BrTarolg wrote: I know it's (supposedly) been discussed to death but Why are gateway expand openings bad again? I know it's not as good vs very early pool strategies, so thats a risk im taking, but is that it? or am i missing something big here? Does it really hurt your econ so much compared to FFE (you still get your nexus on 17 or so~) that your early zealots simply arn't worth the economic damage you might do forcing lings? No idea why people think gate-nexus is not safe. It can be 100% safe IMO. The question in my mind is exactly how greedy can you be to be 100% safe, and the optimal way to go about that. See this thread for a more in-depth discussion on gate-nexus: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327907 | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
The downside of this build is that the cybercore, hence the tech, is quite delayed. If you get roach or bannelings all-inned, you'll have to rely on a single sentry and gate+cannons to hold, which can be pretty dangerous. But Attero does it, so it can definitely be safe vs everything Zerg has. | ||
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Straw1239
United States2 Posts
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Serotonin1
United States225 Posts
On April 30 2012 12:22 Straw1239 wrote: I have been trying this build where I get quick double robo + 4 gates, mass immortals plus chargelots. Initially you get obs to scout for mutas, if you see mutas you stop immos and go straight for HT and stalkers. Anyway, once you have 6+ immos with 2/1 huge numbers of roachs melt. They have to attack the zealots, if they do not, the zealots will have high dps. Even if speed roachs kite zealots, they are expendable, and you can push toward their third. Essentially they have to go hydra or muta or infestor. If infestor or muta, go archon/HT, if they go hydra its easy to go collosus. Of course you take a third behind this. This is a terrible idea. | ||
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Kuja
United States1759 Posts
Care to expand? dont just shoot down ideas and add nothing. | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On April 30 2012 13:18 Kuja wrote: Care to expand? dont just shoot down ideas and add nothing. Throughout the thread double robo has been universally panned as not worth it. If the zerg makes mutas he can win. Its really that simple. The gas invested into immortals and the 2 robos puts any blink tech behind, storm tech is late and your stalker count is low. You also can't take a very fast third which is normal and necessary against 3 base muta. It WILL be 3 base muta because max roach is necessarily a result of fast 3 hatch play. You don't have enough gas off 2 base to hold mutas well, and you don't have enough stalkers and no blink to take and hold a faster 3rd against muta play even if you scout it with the build you suggest. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 30 2012 13:47 zJayy962 wrote: Now that Protoss have found a way to get a relatively safe third and defend against this stephano roach style what do you guys think Zerg's new standard play style is? I feel like Stephano's style has come, prospered, and will slowly fizzle out as Zergs realise it is pretty much all in if your attacks don't slow the protoss down and they shut you down properly with a healthy immortal number and good force fields. An all-in that has 60 workers and map control? Idk man, I don't think "allin" applies to Stephano's build. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
On April 30 2012 06:31 superstartran wrote: If the Z drone scouts you, you are dead. However, alot of Z's don't do that anymore, and you can punish with a Gateway opening like Mc did to Stephano. Why is that? because of ling runbuys? Many maps have lowground wallable naturals which can be covered by 2 buildings and a pylon+zealot, and any scout of early gas/no third should of course be responded by a late cybercore (and earlier forge) in order to cannon up and defend in the same way a normal FFE would I suppose that zerg can have a bit of fun with your wall so there's some zealot micro involved here, depending on how many lings zerg wants to make It's definitely good vs 14/15 blind zerg without gas though edit: BTW the only reason i advocate this early gate open is purely because you get the cyber earlier so you can do a +1 attack earlier Without this bonus it's pretty much pointless to do gate first imho (other than some free clearing of the map of slow lings) edit:2 i also completely disagree with the walls that are shown in that gate first thread I much much prefer to wall at the natural ramp if there is one, otherwise this build is much weaker imho | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
I've watched yesterday MCvsStephano game and later TITAN vs Stephano. Everyone knows that Stephano's style is extremely powerful, but not everyone is macroing like he do, so seeing an 11 min max on ladder is pretty doubtful (until GM i think). But i was really thinking about games against this style and found some working moments. 1. 1SG, as said above is a correct responce to 3 hatch and is pretty much safe against other builds 2. After harrasing zerg with VR, forcing spores and delaying zerg's economy, air should be positioned to map-control and phoenix for scout-harrass some more. 3. Behind that you should prepare for a 2 base medi-allin push against either 3rd or Nat of zerg in order to take it out. It can be immortal or/and blink stalker or/and collosi timing at around 10:30-11:00. Taking out 3-rd base is crucial and basically stands for winning/losing the game. 4. After crushing (or when you move out) you should drop your third. With remainig forces backup and prepare for counter. Counter attack will be hard, but without 3rd stream of roaches won't be so extremely powerful. Sorry if said something aleready said, but theese are my observations and i really hope to see a [G] of beting stephano's roaches. gg | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Fast gasless third, is a response to FFE. As toss you can do whatever you want, but it's not like you HAVE to go stargate. It's just an opening, one of many... 2. After harrasing zerg with VR, forcing spores and delaying zerg's economy, air should be positioned to map-control and phoenix for scout-harrass some more. zerg can also come out ahead too, you know. You make it sound like VR is just so awesome. No, it's about how you play it. Nowadays, toss don't even try to harass zerg with the VR, and use them for other purposes. It's all about playing well. If you macro well, and play well, you can come out ahead or behind, no matter what play you go for. It's not like "yea go vr harass eeez" 3. Behind that you should prepare for a 2 base medi-allin push against either 3rd or Nat of zerg in order to take it out. It can be immortal or/and blink stalker or/and collosi timing at around 10:30-11:00. Taking out 3-rd base is crucial and basically stands for winning/losing the game. why would you go for a robo all-in after opening stargate? It's just going to be horribly late. There are many toss openings, but I dont think Ive ever seen or heard of stargate opener 'for harass' into robo all-in. Stargate openers these days are either used for stargate+wg all-in (very uncommon nowadays), or to secure the third in some way. All you are basically saying is "opening stargate ALWAYS puts toss ahead of zerg, then go all-in to punish him for his third!". Zerg going third is standard play, and stargate is just as likely to get you behind as it can get you ahead - it's really up to the 2 players and their responses and macro, to see who can make the best of the situation. I don't really think your understanding of the match-up is perfect, and there are plenty of stuff about max roach (which is not stephano style.... many, many people did 11 minute max roaches before stephano, and stephano doesnt even go 11 minute max roaches, he goes mass infestors and fast hive turtle style). Guide to beating mass roach 11 minute max: Dont be dumb enough to have your units sit out in the open when you know zerg's econ has kicked in from 3 bases and he has map control. Make enough sentries, with void rays/immortals/blinkstalkers, and eventually take third and go for colossi. Zerg will lose, because his tech will be so far behind. It's extremely all-in to max roaches. What was that thread where the guy translated what the korean commentators said of a ZvP game on daybreak so it had enlgish subtitles? that game is a good example... | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
Is it just me, or judjing by this: and stephano doesnt even go 11 minute max roaches, he goes mass infestors and fast hive turtle style you have no idea on what build is discussed here. Also i've never said anything about me and my understanding, it was just observations from games of MC vs Stephano and Titan vs Stephano. I'm sorry if i affend you, but your post makes no sence. especially: Make enough sentries, with void rays/immortals/blinkstalkers, and eventually take third and go for colossi. Zerg will lose, because his tech will be so far behind. It's extremely all-in to max roaches | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On April 30 2012 15:44 BrTarolg wrote: Why is that? because of ling runbuys? Many maps have lowground wallable naturals which can be covered by 2 buildings and a pylon+zealot, and any scout of early gas/no third should of course be responded by a late cybercore (and earlier forge) in order to cannon up and defend in the same way a normal FFE would I suppose that zerg can have a bit of fun with your wall so there's some zealot micro involved here, depending on how many lings zerg wants to make It's definitely good vs 14/15 blind zerg without gas though edit: BTW the only reason i advocate this early gate open is purely because you get the cyber earlier so you can do a +1 attack earlier Without this bonus it's pretty much pointless to do gate first imho (other than some free clearing of the map of slow lings) edit:2 i also completely disagree with the walls that are shown in that gate first thread I much much prefer to wall at the natural ramp if there is one, otherwise this build is much weaker imho You need to wall-in the main ramp in some way (either on the top or bottom) to defend 6 pools. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On April 30 2012 16:45 Rimak wrote: ^^ Um, excuse me sir, but wtf did i just read. Is it just me, or judjing by this: you have no idea on what build is discussed here. Also i've never said anything about me and my understanding, it was just observations from games of MC vs Stephano and Titan vs Stephano. I'm sorry if i affend you, but your post makes no sence. especially: I'm not offended. I'm just confused why people keep saying 'stephano build'. It's not like stephano did this every game, and many people did it way before stephano (and in the GSL too, so it's not like they were just doing it on ladder). Even then, 'stephano style' is much different. Day9 even covers "Stephano Style' in day9 daily #429. It's about mass infestor, spines, into fast hive, and 100+ drones and making 50+ spines. I don't know what doesn't make sense about the post I made. If you go max roach, and Toss holds because he stays on his ramp and isn't dumb enough to be caught with alll his units out in the open and forgetting to forcefield because he wasn't paying attention, he'll eventually survive as he has enough sentries + immmortals, or sentries + blink stalkers, or sentries + void rays, or maybe even colossi. He'll then secure his third, and the zerg spent so much gas on roaches, that his tech will be delayed, and his macro will be hurt. Toss generally will move towards robotech against 200/200 roach play, so you are just encouraging them to get those 4+ colossi deathball quicker. Your mutas or infestors will be incredibly late, and then be too weak to keep toss stuck in his base, and then your hive tech will never come in time to stop his deathball 3 base push. Ah, here's the game: FXOLucky vs Slayers_Puzzle. Lucky made so many roaches, then toss held, and did his 3 base deathpush when lucky's tech was too far behind to come back. His mutas were just too little too late. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323846 | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On April 30 2012 19:20 Belial88 wrote: I'm not offended. I'm just confused why people keep saying 'stephano build'. It's not like stephano did this every game, and many people did it way before stephano (and in the GSL too, so it's not like they were just doing it on ladder). Even then, 'stephano style' is much different. Day9 even covers "Stephano Style' in day9 daily #429. It's about mass infestor, spines, into fast hive, and 100+ drones and making 50+ spines. I don't know what doesn't make sense about the post I made. If you go max roach, and Toss holds because he stays on his ramp and isn't dumb enough to be caught with alll his units out in the open and forgetting to forcefield because he wasn't paying attention, he'll eventually survive as he has enough sentries + immmortals, or sentries + blink stalkers, or sentries + void rays, or maybe even colossi. He'll then secure his third, and the zerg spent so much gas on roaches, that his tech will be delayed, and his macro will be hurt. Toss generally will move towards robotech against 200/200 roach play, so you are just encouraging them to get those 4+ colossi deathball quicker. Your mutas or infestors will be incredibly late, and then be too weak to keep toss stuck in his base, and then your hive tech will never come in time to stop his deathball 3 base push. Ah, here's the game: FXOLucky vs Slayers_Puzzle. Lucky made so many roaches, then toss held, and did his 3 base deathpush when lucky's tech was too far behind to come back. His mutas were just too little too late. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323846 Right, i see your point. The issue with the Stephano's current style of play vs P, which he is using in 95% of games against toss, is that at 11-12 minute mark maxed speed roach army with 2-2 (if i'm not wrong) with burrow and tunneling claws incoming. Is just too much for Protoss to handle, out of 3 bases roaches don't stop flowing and overrun P with countless waves of them. And 3rd is hardly securable, due to multi-pronged attack. So eventually protoss gets pinned down by a countless swarm of roach, and is forced to live off 2 base. More on the style here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733 Composition you suggested is very nice, but cost of it is astronomical, it will take you really long time out of 2 base to gather that force, while maxed zerg expands, and also if you lose those units you won't be able to rebuild them quickly, due to resource shortage. So it's kinda dead end situation. That's why for the last 70 pages tosses were trying to figure out what to do. Surely there is some ways of exploiting zerg's mistakes, but purpose of the topic is to find a standart, that would work against 3 hatch roach. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Look. day9 even did a daily about it. I wouldn't think he'd make a day9 daily about it if it wasn't his style: Kyrix was the first person I ever saw do it, and I think I even posted saying "omg this is so unbeatable for toss" until a few toss showed me it was pretty easy to deal with. This was like, back when terminus was in the mappool... kyrix vs hongun on terminus, a long ass time ago. It's not too hard for Toss to handle. Maybe in the lower leagues it is, but there's a reason none of the pro zergs do it. It just makes your mutas/infestors sooooo late. What are you going to do with max roach? Eventually, Toss will have enough sentries and immortals to take this third, and you aren't going to kill immortal/sentry in a choke with just roaches. Eventually, toss is going to get his third, and then your mutas/infestors will be too late to do any real damage, and then toss pushes out and kills you because you dont have hive. Of course Toss takes a long time to get immortals and sentries, or void rays and sentries, or blink stalkers and sentries, or whatever. Toss just needs to turtle on his ramp when he sees you are all-inning, and then he goes toward robo units. Eventually, he'll have enough robo units, take his third, defend, and you can't do anything about it because your mutas/infestors are so late. There have been plenty of toss who've posted in the last 70 pages saying what to do. No one is confused about it. The standard against 3 hatch roach, is just fall back when zerg's 3 base economy kicks in ~11+ mark if you haven't done a ton of damage yet, and be defensive as hell and try to secure your third. If Z continues to make roaches, get more robo. If Z doesn't, prepare for mutas or infestor play, which you will just need to scout with hallu/obs to see which of the two it is. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
seriously though, I think this is extremely viable. It's a little tricky when the roaches run everywhere and split up, but if you keep up with it well enough eventually you will have enough VRs + cannons + sim city to stabilize 3 bases. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403 | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On April 30 2012 19:59 Belial88 wrote: I don't ever see stephano do it recently. Look. day9 even did a daily about ... ...you will just need to scout with hallu/obs to see which of the two it is. So basically you are saying: "Zerg is not going to crush your 100+ supply out of three bases with his countless 200/200 waves of roaches, if you stay on 2 base. He's just gonna go OH SHI man HE is pinned on 2 bases, and i'm maxed on 3, how will I be able to get muta and infestor now??! And also i have map control, and huge economy, omg I'm doomed." I will have to ask you to please stop trolling like this, it is not funny. You are showing me day9 daily, cool. But yesterday I saw stephano steamroll Titan and gave a really tough life to MC with roaches and NOT BL/Inf. I'm not going to argue about the name of this kind of build, I don't really care. I just know that infestor-broodlord is much easier to deal with, than with this kind of roach hammer in the face. Also an advice "get more stuff of 2 base than zerg from 3" is really bad. | ||
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