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On August 14 2010 22:49 Conris wrote:
i've just watched the first video...
regardless of whether it's effective or not, this muta build, the terran player in the first game was...beyond horrible. let's not say anything about his macro. after scanning your spire, he continued to build hellions out of both his techlab factories, and proceeded to throw down random turrets around his base. somewhere around 6 minutes i believe, you could've 1aed yourway into his base and probably killed off all the scvs with your 12 speedlings.
he had an armory up very early with 2 techlab facs, however he decided to build a ton of hellions and not harass.
I don't pretend to be some uber gosu, neither are my opponents.
your strat aims to get mutas fast(atleast before enough thors are out to deal with your mutas), however you sat on 1 gas even after your expo is fully saturated, resulting in lack of gas (only enough for 6 mutas vs. like 10 larvae when spire popped).
If you think my basic premise is to get mutas fast, then you are missing the entire point of the build. It's not timing dependent. I often delay my muta severely when I scout fast pushes in order to have the lings and surround to counter the fast pushes. The late gas was a mistake on my part, and again I reiterate by no means am I a perfect player.
i'm all for trying out this strat, mutas give insane map control, but how did you know he was going thors and not m/m/+m maybe? because a handful of lings and 3 spine crawlers won't hold even a 20 food m/m ball
Muta + baneling is the counter to MMM, so I'm not quite sre what you're going for here. If he had gone MMM it would have been played the same way except with more baneling. If he had gone an early MM push, well honestly I usually rape those with lings when they're not backed up by hellions.
again, this terran was horrible.
after watching the second video, and watching you run your mutas into his 2 thors, and losing nearly 4 instantly, after having to back off, picking off 1 thor and before the marines get in range.
at this point you had no banelings, he has 8 to 9 seige tanks, thors, and a lot of marines with stim. my question is, what's your answer to him 1a-ing your base? i understand that you'll have mutas in his base, it'll be a base trade, but if that was his goal as well and just lolturret spam, what do you have to answer to that? there is no way you'll be able to engage his army head on, nor are there infestors or roaches or hydras or anything else out in your base.
Did you notice my 30ish lings near the top xel naga tower? That and the bunch of muta that I just spawned and more lings on the way can perfectly destroy his 1a-ing my base. I would kill a few more buildings with muta (like supplies), then run back and still be in time to save my base. Plus, he doesn't dare move out yet.
this is a pure "harass heavy and hope i don't get attacked" build, it's nice, but when they just decided to lol-1a, it's painful to not be able to do anything in response when you're 1+base and like 30 food ahead.
I dont think so. Like I said, I win a lot of games ZvT against a lot of T variation, and my build has seemed to deal with all of them pretty well (except mass BCs one game). Your roly-polies SHOULD mostly be done by the time he pushes out after your initial harrass. And that usually stops the push dead in his tracks.
I'm sure very good terrans can outplay me by a lot, but I'm only claiming that me using this build against similarly skilled or slightly better terrans has resulted in me winning most of my ZvTs.
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On August 14 2010 22:49 Conris wrote:
EDIT:
i'm currently switching to zerg (from toss to terran and now zerg) mid level diamond player, i'm not here to bash this strat by all means, but 400~600 level terran players "usually" aren't this passive/bad, if you can post replays of losing games, maybe it'll be easier to see how this strat can be improved.
ie. would infestors early be more effective with FG be more effective in dealing with him pushing, or teching hydras etc etc.
I will try posting more replays later. But the terran in the first replay was a ~570ish terran back when I played him and at the top of his division at that point (650 level terran right now as I just checked). The terran in the 2nd replay was a bit worse, 400-ish terran.
Also, one more deal with the 2nd terran. I believe he was preparing to timing push me with marines + tanks. However, if you noticed i sacrificed an ovie. I personally believe that made him think I scouted his push and was ready to defend it, and so he made the poor decision to expand instead.
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thanks for the speedy response and the sections it was broken down into.
m/m/m: this is on stepsofwar. at 9 minutes, sufficient time for a m/m/m push, you had no banelings nest up, and your mutas just popped (few seconds after). you had no information about his base other than a rax and fac with no addon, i understand baneling/muta deals with m/m well, but that's on paper, you did not scout this, so it doesn't apply, meaning you went along with this strat regardless of what he was doing, so, banelings are irrelevant.
if the goal is not for 2base fast muta into more muta to overwhelm the default "thors rape muta" mentality, what is? because between your muta and your initial 6 drone and hatch, there was no effective defense or harass. i guess my question here is, when you were sitting on let's just say 20 lings and 1 spinecrawler, waiting on your spire, and no having scouted their base at all, what would your response be if he showed up with an m/m/m ball, or even just marine tanks, note that your baneling nest was not up.
i understand the concept of a delayed unit, but between a rushed and a delayed unit, the time gap is the scariest and most vulnerable, zerglings aren't a very efficient way to deal with terran...whether it be m/m/m or just hellion marauder.
again, i'm not here to rip on anything, but what was the ace in the hole so to speak, that you had, if he decided to attack(again baneling nest was not up and you did not scout)
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Mass mutalisks is very rare IMO (at least in the games I've played/watched) and I suspect this build works well because its unexpected. Terran spots the spire and builds a few thors and turrets and thinks he's covered against any muta harrass. Once the thors are out and holds off the initial muta harrass, the assumption is that Zerg is going to give up on the mutas.
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nice idea. But the first two replays are against some pretty rigid Terrans.
The first guy doesnt make any marines (WTF?) and makes reapers even though you have spine crawlers everywhere. He scans but makes 2 missile turrets(need at least 3-4 to deter) for an inevitable muta harass.
THe 2nd guy just turtles and doesnt scan lmao.
Try your strat against a decent MMM ball with mech support.
but ye reasonable strat just depends on how shit the terran player is.
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On August 14 2010 23:14 Conris wrote:
thanks for the speedy response and the sections it was broken down into.
m/m/m: this is on stepsofwar. at 9 minutes, sufficient time for a m/m/m push, you had no banelings nest up, and your mutas just popped (few seconds after). you had no information about his base other than a rax and fac with no addon, i understand baneling/muta deals with m/m well, but that's on paper, you did not scout this, so it doesn't apply, meaning you went along with this strat regardless of what he was doing, so, banelings are irrelevant.
if the goal is not for 2base fast muta into more muta to overwhelm the default "thors rape muta" mentality, what is? because between your muta and your initial 6 drone and hatch, there was no effective defense or harass. i guess my question here is, when you were sitting on let's just say 20 lings and 1 spinecrawler, waiting on your spire, and no having scouted their base at all, what would your response be if he showed up with an m/m/m ball, or even just marine tanks, note that your baneling nest was not up.
Personally, I would just make 20 more ling as soon as his units move out. By the time he gets to your base and/or kills your spine crawler and queen, you have 40 lings total ready to flank him.
And I did scout. I sacrificed an ovie early to see that. That's why I made the lings in the first place and was ready to make more. And I had a ling at his nat ready to see if he moved out.
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On August 14 2010 23:27 Pking wrote:
Mass mutalisks is very rare IMO (at least in the games I've played/watched) and I suspect this build works well because its unexpected. Terran spots the spire and builds a few thors and turrets and thinks he's covered against any muta harrass. Once the thors are out and holds off the initial muta harrass, the assumption is that Zerg is going to give up on the mutas.
I'm sorry if I come off as bm right now, but have you read the dozen or so posts by terran players themselves in this very thread that said the mass muta build is the hardest build they usually come across?
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I think a much better use of mutas would be as a transition to broodlords and or ultras.
You are forcing terran to mass thors, turrets and marines. That leaves terran with few tanks, if terran makes tanks and skips on thors then you can expect an easy win with mass mutas.
However, once terran gets a good anti air combination you can switch to brood lords to counter thor marines.
Also instead of massing mutas only, a muta ling combo with blings added if there is a sizable bio force.
If only mutas could morph into broodlords.... kinda reminds me of BW..
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I will post a few more replays I guess. Most of these aren't muta vs thor, but they show what I do to counter early game harrassment and stuff.
Replay 1:
Opponent: 550 level terran, Xel Naga Caverns
Game opens with him using lzgamer's 3 rax reaper build or some variation (ofcourse with not as good micro) and me playing pretty standard with hatch first and sunkening up then teching to muta
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?iaqflxf882akr7y
Replay 2:
Opponent: I'm not sure what level this guy is, since I did a search on sc2ranks and there are a ton of ppl with the same name. I'm assuming 500-600 level diamond tho since those are who I get matched up against, Xel Naga caverns
Game opens with him bunker rushing, then 3 hellion harrass immediately after before I even get speed. Then 2 vikings come out before my lair is halfway done, while he expoes. I played poorly early game and lost a lot to harrass, but once my muta came out it was fine.
http://www.mediafire.com/?g3tvjwuqtjjcctd
Replay 3: (for all you ppl saying the opponents I play just suck)
Opponent: 786 diamond terran, ranked 2nd in his division, Steppes
Opponent opens hellion harrass into viking/thor/maurauder push, and loses first push and quits
http://www.mediafire.com/?y28m21eso8941jb
Replay 4: (for ppl worreid about early game harrass)
Opponent: 674 diamond terran, Steppes
I couldn't hatch first expo this game b/c he brought an early SCV and built a bunker there (which he later salvaged as my lings came out, that bastard). So I had to pool first. Then he brings 3 hellions, and transitions into banshees b4 my spire is done.
http://www.mediafire.com/?l0z5870k320s5um
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On August 14 2010 23:54 Rev0lution wrote:
I think a much better use of mutas would be as a transition to broodlords and or ultras.
You are forcing terran to mass thors, turrets and marines. That leaves terran with few tanks, if terran makes tanks and skips on thors then you can expect an easy win with mass mutas.
However, once terran gets a good anti air combination you can switch to brood lords to counter thor marines.
Also instead of massing mutas only, a muta ling combo with blings added if there is a sizable bio force.
If only mutas could morph into broodlords.... kinda reminds me of BW..
That's what I usually do. Mutaling is a very good transition to brood lords, like I say above. B/c by the time your broodlords come out your brood lords AND broodlings are both 2-2 if you've been playing with this build.
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On August 14 2010 23:45 D-Rose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 23:27 Pking wrote:
Mass mutalisks is very rare IMO (at least in the games I've played/watched) and I suspect this build works well because its unexpected. Terran spots the spire and builds a few thors and turrets and thinks he's covered against any muta harrass. Once the thors are out and holds off the initial muta harrass, the assumption is that Zerg is going to give up on the mutas. I'm sorry if I come off as bm right now, but have you read the dozen or so posts by terran players themselves in this very thread that said the mass muta build is the hardest build they usually come across?
No doubt it is hard to deal with. I did read those and I agree that it is hard but in my experience its not something you encounter that often.
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Heh, which is why I'm pushing for the build. At least in my experience it has worked not just satisfactorily, but very well for me.
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I play at a slightly lower level (300-600 diamond) and use this all the time, it works wonders.
While I probably play worse than you overall something I have found helpful are in base hatches. I had a game (will post replay later) where I got to 150 lings while spending all the gas on mutas. The fact is, 50 banelings + 100 lings will break through anything short of 10 sieged tanks. The main point here is to turn that huge surplus of minerals into a huge surplus of hatcheries overlords and lings. In my experience enough lings will kill just about anything that isn't totally walled in and enough banelings will take care of any wall. This is all doable while still doing your muta build, just remember to add hatches and keep popping out lings with those extra minerals.
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Thanks for the tip. Will definitely try that and incorporate burrow as well. I do find in my games that I'm using up all my gas but often have like 1-2k surplus minerals.
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On August 15 2010 00:04 D-Rose wrote:I will post a few more replays I guess. Most of these aren't muta vs thor, but they show what I do to counter early game harrassment and stuff. Replay 1: Opponent: 550 level terran, Xel Naga Caverns Game opens with him using lzgamer's 3 rax reaper build or some variation (ofcourse with not as good micro) and me playing pretty standard with hatch first and sunkening up then teching to muta http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?iaqflxf882akr7yReplay 2: Opponent: I'm not sure what level this guy is, since I did a search on sc2ranks and there are a ton of ppl with the same name. I'm assuming 500-600 level diamond tho since those are who I get matched up against, Xel Naga caverns Game opens with him bunker rushing, then 3 hellion harrass immediately after before I even get speed. Then 2 vikings come out before my lair is halfway done, while he expoes. I played poorly early game and lost a lot to harrass, but once my muta came out it was fine. http://www.mediafire.com/?g3tvjwuqtjjcctdReplay 3: (for all you ppl saying the opponents I play just suck) Opponent: 786 diamond terran, ranked 2nd in his division, Steppes Opponent opens hellion harrass into viking/thor/maurauder push, and loses first push and quits http://www.mediafire.com/?y28m21eso8941jbReplay 4: (for ppl worreid about early game harrass) Opponent: 674 diamond terran, Steppes I couldn't hatch first expo this game b/c he brought an early SCV and built a bunker there (which he later salvaged as my lings came out, that bastard). So I had to pool first. Then he brings 3 hellions, and transitions into banshees b4 my spire is done. http://www.mediafire.com/?l0z5870k320s5um Hey D-Rose, I've been using a very similar build to yours, but instead of massing mutas I simply get between 10-20(depends on what my opponent is doing) and go heavier on the lings/blings while teching to ultra. Differences aside, I've found that it's actually way safer and just as economical to get an early pool(12pool with double etrick conserves larva while getting a really early queen) and expand much later(usually just after lair). I just get a single pair of lings for scouting and drone like crazy until about the third larva pop(this is usually when the first hellion arrives when people are doing 1 hellion poking and 10 lings can deal with that since speed is researched around this time).
This way I am almost completely immune to early reaper/bunker play(I don't expand until speedlings are out) and I still have enough larva to deal with early pressure(such as hellion or MM play). As you, I found that spending my second 100 gas on lair gives me a spire just in time for banshee play, which means I don't even have to worry about banshees ever as my mutas will always spawn just in time. Basically, the only thing I need to scout for is early MM pushes and high numbers of blueflame hellions(which can arrive slightly before spire pops). MM I deal with by simply making lings, like you, but large numbers of hellion I usually just hold off on sending my drones to my expo until spire is done. That way I can block off my ramp with a queen and be perfectly safe(on maps with large chokes, I usually place a pair of sunkens near the choke, but on small chokes I can usually be fine without any sunkens at all).
All in all, I approve of this build(550 diamond zerg, playing mostly 700-750 diamond terrans) and I've only lost once in my last 10 zvt games because I mismicroed my banelings straight into 4 tanks instead of his MM ball(doh!).
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On August 15 2010 00:04 D-Rose wrote:Replay 3: (for all you ppl saying the opponents I play just suck) Opponent: 786 diamond terran, ranked 2nd in his division, Steppes Opponent opens hellion harrass into viking/thor/maurauder push, and loses first push and quits http://www.mediafire.com/?y28m21eso8941jb
Wow, either he had a really bad day or the skill level on the NA-servers is really low (but I guess there are quite a lot of bad diamond players in EU as well).
He pretty much didn't scout at all and then he went marauders + tanks against lings and mutas. Not to mention the failed viking harass that didn't kill anything and his inability to use the limited amount of intel he managed to get from his vikings. I guess it was to late to do anything when he finally scouted considering the production buildings he had, but still. Finally he gets caught completely out of position by the lings and you get an easy victory.
I still believe the build is incredibly vulnerable to hellions+thors (the game between IdrA and Silver on metalopolis should be a good example). If you used a roach warren and maybe even some roaches to trick the terrans into going marauders and/or tanks, the replays could possibly be interesting. Right now it just feels like you face bad terrans that fail to scout what you're doing, and then the replays means little to nothing.
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On August 15 2010 00:46 Kupo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 00:04 D-Rose wrote:Replay 3: (for all you ppl saying the opponents I play just suck) Opponent: 786 diamond terran, ranked 2nd in his division, Steppes Opponent opens hellion harrass into viking/thor/maurauder push, and loses first push and quits http://www.mediafire.com/?y28m21eso8941jb Wow, either he had a really bad day or the skill level on the NA-servers is really low (but I guess there are quite a lot of bad diamond players in EU as well). He pretty much didn't scout at all and then he went marauders + tanks against lings and mutas. Not to mention the failed viking harass that didn't kill anything and his inability to use the limited amount of intel he managed to get from his vikings. I guess it was to late to do anything when he finally scouted considering the production buildings he had, but still. Finally he gets caught completely out of position by the lings and you get an easy victory. I still believe the build is incredibly vulnerable to hellions+thors (the game between IdrA and Silver on metalopolis should be a good example). If you used a roach warren and maybe even some roaches to trick the terrans into going marauders and/or tanks, the replays could possibly be interesting. Right now it just feels like you face bad terrans that fail to scout what you're doing, and then the replays means little to nothing.
Ok, I guess I can't really say anything in response to that. I'm not that good myself so I don't face terrans that much better than me and thus have no idea if it really works at higher levels. (Although I guess even if I did and lose with the build, it might just be an issue of skill and the terran player being just plainly better).
But usually against hellion thor i flank and smash my +1 banelings into his hellions, then my lings have pretty much free reign. If the terrans are at better levles, like you're saying, then maybe that doesn't work.
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On August 15 2010 00:44 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 00:04 D-Rose wrote:I will post a few more replays I guess. Most of these aren't muta vs thor, but they show what I do to counter early game harrassment and stuff. Replay 1: Opponent: 550 level terran, Xel Naga Caverns Game opens with him using lzgamer's 3 rax reaper build or some variation (ofcourse with not as good micro) and me playing pretty standard with hatch first and sunkening up then teching to muta http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?iaqflxf882akr7yReplay 2: Opponent: I'm not sure what level this guy is, since I did a search on sc2ranks and there are a ton of ppl with the same name. I'm assuming 500-600 level diamond tho since those are who I get matched up against, Xel Naga caverns Game opens with him bunker rushing, then 3 hellion harrass immediately after before I even get speed. Then 2 vikings come out before my lair is halfway done, while he expoes. I played poorly early game and lost a lot to harrass, but once my muta came out it was fine. http://www.mediafire.com/?g3tvjwuqtjjcctdReplay 3: (for all you ppl saying the opponents I play just suck) Opponent: 786 diamond terran, ranked 2nd in his division, Steppes Opponent opens hellion harrass into viking/thor/maurauder push, and loses first push and quits http://www.mediafire.com/?y28m21eso8941jbReplay 4: (for ppl worreid about early game harrass) Opponent: 674 diamond terran, Steppes I couldn't hatch first expo this game b/c he brought an early SCV and built a bunker there (which he later salvaged as my lings came out, that bastard). So I had to pool first. Then he brings 3 hellions, and transitions into banshees b4 my spire is done. http://www.mediafire.com/?l0z5870k320s5um Hey D-Rose, I've been using a very similar build to yours, but instead of massing mutas I simply get between 10-20(depends on what my opponent is doing) and go heavier on the lings/blings while teching to ultra. Differences aside, I've found that it's actually way safer and just as economical to get an early pool(12pool with double etrick conserves larva while getting a really early queen) and expand much later(usually just after lair). I just get a single pair of lings for scouting and drone like crazy until about the third larva pop(this is usually when the first hellion arrives when people are doing 1 hellion poking and 10 lings can deal with that since speed is researched around this time). This way I am almost completely immune to early reaper/bunker play(I don't expand until speedlings are out) and I still have enough larva to deal with early pressure(such as hellion or MM play). As you, I found that spending my second 100 gas on lair gives me a spire just in time for banshee play, which means I don't even have to worry about banshees ever as my mutas will always spawn just in time. Basically, the only thing I need to scout for is early MM pushes and high numbers of blueflame hellions(which can arrive slightly before spire pops). MM I deal with by simply making lings, like you, but large numbers of hellion I usually just hold off on sending my drones to my expo until spire is done. That way I can block off my ramp with a queen and be perfectly safe(on maps with large chokes, I usually place a pair of sunkens near the choke, but on small chokes I can usually be fine without any sunkens at all). All in all, I approve of this build(550 diamond zerg, playing mostly 700-750 diamond terrans) and I've only lost once in my last 10 zvt games because I mismicroed my banelings straight into 4 tanks instead of his MM ball(doh!).
Heh ok, I'll keep that in mind and experiment with this too ^^. I usually like to FE though just because I'm a risk taker and I want more gas :p
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I watched the replays. I like the mass muta, however I looked at the early game and T seems to have the upperhand. In one of the games specifically, if the T player decided to move out with his marines and a few tanks it seemed like he would have easily broke through (Steppes replay). I would be just scared of an early game push if the T player ops for an early start on mech rather than a reaper harass.
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On August 15 2010 01:02 sLiniss wrote:
I watched the replays. I like the mass muta, however I looked at the early game and T seems to have the upperhand. In one of the games specifically, if the T player decided to move out with his marines and a few tanks it seemed like he would have easily broke through (Steppes replay). I would be just scared of an early game push if the T player ops for an early start on mech rather than a reaper harass.
Like I said, I usually manage to hold those off. I made 20 or so ling in preparation when I sac'ed an ovie and scouted his probably planned timing push. If he hadn't changed his mind upon being discovered, once he pushed out I would have popped more lings from my main and put my other lings in position to flank (at around the top cliff near watch tower). I'm usually able to hold off timing pushes pretty well in my games. But as other people have alluded to, maybe at higher levels (800+) then the timing/unit control becomes so good that it doesn't work anymore (and/or next time I go on ladder and someone's read this thread and knows exactly what I'm going to do and plans exactly how to counter me at just the right time).
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