EPTas for the OP, this should be a lesson not to post replays that are not better vetted. all you get are a bunch of copper zergs poopooing things they don't even understand.
[D] Counter to terran mech = mass muta - Page 8
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
as for the OP, this should be a lesson not to post replays that are not better vetted. all you get are a bunch of copper zergs poopooing things they don't even understand. | ||
micronesia
United States24766 Posts
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D-Rose
58 Posts
On August 15 2010 01:16 naventus wrote: the stupidity and lack of comprehension in so many of these replies is really astounding. as for the OP, this should be a lesson not to post replays that are not better vetted. all you get are a bunch of copper zergs poopooing things they don't even understand. Sorry what does vetted mean? and thx micro | ||
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
Anyway, thanks a ton for this, I'll be sure to try it out. Although it might be better to add a few roaches in (or at least let a roach warren get scanned, it's only minerals anyway) just so the Terran is forced to make marauders or tanks early on. | ||
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D-Rose
58 Posts
On August 15 2010 01:27 QuakerOats wrote: Anyway, thanks a ton for this, I'll be sure to try it out. Although it might be better to add a few roaches in (or at least let a roach warren get scanned, it's only minerals anyway) just so the Terran is forced to make marauders or tanks early on. I've actually done this before back when I was at the lower levels. Hide my spire at my nat and make a roach warren in main. I actually ended up surprising with my first few muta quite a few times and ending the game right there or giving me a huge advantage. I didn't think that would work at the higher levels, though, so I stopped doing it. | ||
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Kupo
Sweden151 Posts
On August 15 2010 01:27 QuakerOats wrote: These forums sadden me. A very good player tries to help by posting what he does in a matchup that most consider imbalanced, with tons of replays, and everyone has to jump in and claim that the Terrans all suck and it would never work. Apparently only Idra is allowed to post Zerg advice - but I'm sure the Terrans all suck in his replays too. Anyway, thanks a ton for this, I'll be sure to try it out. Although it might be better to add a few roaches in (or at least let a roach warren get scanned, it's only minerals anyway) just so the Terran is forced to make marauders or tanks early on. I have just been trying to point out what I feel are the weak parts of the strategy from a terran perspective (~600 diamond), since most zergs I face go for lings+mutas. The replays show what happens if the terran spends too much on tanks and marauders, the problem is just that the terrans fail to scout or adapt to the situation in the replays. With signs of roaches it is probably much more likely that the terran goes for more pure anti-ground units and if he still goes for thors+hellions you should be in a better position to defeat the army by going roach heavy instead. | ||
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Clearout
Norway1060 Posts
Seems to really help keep your 3rd safe and allow you to take an earlier 4th  | ||
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
BTW in game my own macro flagged alot and I didn't stim-run my marines around his blings in circles, but I'm looking for improvement. Also I started the game as random, if that helps. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56487-1v1-terran-zerg-blistering-sands | ||
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Fenrir-Vice
United States123 Posts
It's a solid strat that will be very micro intesnive, making it not for everyone, but if you can do it,enjoy your tvz wins. (i play terran and solid muta play makes me cry) | ||
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D-Rose
58 Posts
On August 15 2010 02:44 sikyon wrote: I just played a guy and he tried this strat agianst me. I'm wondering what he did wrong... I think he wasn't agressive enough in the muta harass, if I'm not mistaken? Muta micro wasn't good enough? BTW in game my own macro flagged alot and I didn't stim-run my marines around his blings in circles, but I'm looking for improvement. Also I started the game as random, if that helps. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56487-1v1-terran-zerg-blistering-sands Well first of all, he was tremendously delayed by a poor response to your harrass, then got killed by the push right after. So you went into the mid game significantly ahead. He did some good harrassment with his initial muta. But then inexplicably as your push was moving out, he refused to engage 4 turrets with 20+ muta, which would have forced you back to your main. He also made almost no ling before your push arrived at his doorstep, and then he clumped mutas when engaging thors. Normally, if I don't screw up msasively, that kind of push like you did on the 2nd push I should be able to deal with very easily without losing my nat, and I'd be still on 3-4 bases and powering to hive. In the end he had so much gas (1400) could be 14 more muta to add to his collection. He didn't upgrade his muta at all, and even in the last attack, he decided to send his units in small waves. First let his banelings die, then let his lings die, then let his sunkens die, and then let his muta die. Better to wait for thors to engange sunkens then send in all the muta-ling-baneling You just played very well and he had a poor response to it, I feel. But just think about this. The guy played a poor early game, lost his nat and a ton of drones to early harrass. However, once his muta came out, he regained even an advantage at that point I feel, with 20+ muta and 3 bases. Which he later proceeded to lose that advantage by some poor decisions. Just wondering how many zergs would be able to turn such an early game disadvantage into a mid game advantage by going a roach/hydra/ling ground build. | ||
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Prophecy3
Canada223 Posts
I think after this build is scouted by Terran, I think there's a clear path to go, and that's EBay tech. Along with the obvious Marine/Thor. upgraded bunks. and +2 building armor with a +1 Inf Damge. One thing this build really relies on is harrassing Terran and closing him into his base early game to get some mass exps down to keep up on your gas. Getting the expanded bunk upgrade (100/100) soon as Ebay tech is up will allow 6marines to be in a bunk, and with +2 armor that takes muta base dmg down to 7base. you probably only need 3bunks max. Also throwing down Sensor towers reduces Muta harss quite a bit because you can position your army much faster and more effectively. it would also probably be wise to push with a couple hellions (so you're looking at a 2rax/2fac build with a possible fe at beginning). The beauty of this is that the defensive investment isn't permanent like turrets. I Haven't faced higher level players yet, but Bling/Muta is pretty much the VoidRays of tvz. Hope this helps some Terrans | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On August 15 2010 03:34 Prophecy3 wrote: Well I read two pages of this, and didn't really see any Pro Terrans throwing down some counters to this strat.. So I guess I'll try and throw down a couple suggestions. I think after this build is scouted by Terran, I think there's a clear path to go, and that's EBay tech. Along with the obvious Marine/Thor. upgraded bunks. and +2 building armor with a +1 Inf Damge. One thing this build really relies on is harrassing Terran and closing him into his base early game to get some mass exps down to keep up on your gas. Getting the expanded bunk upgrade (100/100) soon as Ebay tech is up will allow 6marines to be in a bunk, and with +2 armor that takes muta base dmg down to 7base. you probably only need 3bunks max. Also throwing down Sensor towers reduces Muta harss quite a bit because you can position your army much faster and more effectively. it would also probably be wise to push with a couple hellions (so you're looking at a 2rax/2fac build with a possible fe at beginning). The beauty of this is that the defensive investment isn't permanent like turrets. I Haven't faced higher level players yet, but Bling/Muta is pretty much the VoidRays of tvz. Hope this helps some Terrans How would you know if zerg is going for mass mutalisk? Spire and Bnest are standard in ZvT. Maybe zerg will transition Ultra/infestor/broodlord/nydus worm or maybe not. | ||
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_Epic
United States34 Posts
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jamvng
Canada244 Posts
On August 15 2010 03:48 bokeevboke wrote: How would you know if zerg is going for mass mutalisk? Spire and Bnest are standard in ZvT. Maybe zerg will transition Ultra/infestor/broodlord/nydus worm or maybe not. I think that's one of the strengths of zerg, the Terran might see a spire and a den/warren, and not know how many Thors/Tanks to get. If I get too many Tanks and not enough Thors/rines, mutas will own you when you move out. And vice versa, though Thors do not that bad against roaches, and are pretty good against hydras. You have to be smart with scouting, scans and just have a good game sense. Muta harass is a pain to deal with against a good player too, can put you off your normal game. | ||
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Actua
Canada101 Posts
Thors do not own mutas that much. In fact they rape unmicroed mutas. This is approximative, but 15-20 mutas with a supplement of roaches/banelings/lings will rape the bejesus out of any thor + anything mid-game army. So in regards to OP, yes, mutas are incredibly powerful in ZvT, its just that most zergs dont see past the 9 mutas getting raped by 2 thors and a pack of marines. I sometimes go pure mutas and lings/blings if the terrran doesnt react accordingly and jsut end it there with harass and good surrounds. Otherwise, I think that if your going against stronger players, pure mutas or no switch thereafter might be throw you out of the game the mutas helped you stay in. Now, my build usually goes into lings to mutas adding roaches/blings to fast hive into ultralisks. Because man, Ultralisks just rape anything in the terran ground army arsenal. | ||
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Kelberot
Brazil364 Posts
Because he can easily get enough thors on 2 bases that doesnt matter how many mutalisks you have, you'll always lose. Getting MORE mutas doesn't sound like a great strategy if the terran can get... MORE thors. | ||
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D-Rose
58 Posts
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Daeizer
France20 Posts
Then it's just harras, expend, and finaly drown him in a swarm of fully upgraded Ultralisks. (if everything goes well of course) Plus it's just fun. here's a replay if anyone is interested. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-138983.jpg) (I would also love any criticism about my play) | ||
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
On August 15 2010 03:14 D-Rose wrote: Well first of all, he was tremendously delayed by a poor response to your harrass, then got killed by the push right after. So you went into the mid game significantly ahead. He did some good harrassment with his initial muta. But then inexplicably as your push was moving out, he refused to engage 4 turrets with 20+ muta, which would have forced you back to your main. He also made almost no ling before your push arrived at his doorstep, and then he clumped mutas when engaging thors. Normally, if I don't screw up msasively, that kind of push like you did on the 2nd push I should be able to deal with very easily without losing my nat, and I'd be still on 3-4 bases and powering to hive. In the end he had so much gas (1400) could be 14 more muta to add to his collection. He didn't upgrade his muta at all, and even in the last attack, he decided to send his units in small waves. First let his banelings die, then let his lings die, then let his sunkens die, and then let his muta die. Better to wait for thors to engange sunkens then send in all the muta-ling-baneling You just played very well and he had a poor response to it, I feel. But just think about this. The guy played a poor early game, lost his nat and a ton of drones to early harrass. However, once his muta came out, he regained even an advantage at that point I feel, with 20+ muta and 3 bases. Which he later proceeded to lose that advantage by some poor decisions. Just wondering how many zergs would be able to turn such an early game disadvantage into a mid game advantage by going a roach/hydra/ling ground build. I do think that it was very impressive just how much he came back from my initial harass + first push by soley relying on mutas. I think it bought him the time he needed to reexpand and get back in the game. However, I feel that if you fall behind in the early game to harass you just may not be able to catch up in time. I think that massing mutas is a great strat but it can also be very risky engaging turrents. If you attack a couple of turrents with a mass of mutas you'll win easily. However, if your opponent has just out and out turtled with turrents and you can't see them until you engage, you'll take signifigant losses before you can pull out. Even worse, if you engage turrents and clump up and a thor gets the jump on you, you are going to take heavy losses. I feel like being highly aggressive with mutas is key to winning with them but at the same time it's super risky to do so because you can't see a terran player's army placement all the time. | ||
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