EPTAnd if you really have that much trouble against HT, get some ghosts and EMP. Not hard.
TvP – A Terran’s view - Page 6
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FenneK
France1231 Posts
And if you really have that much trouble against HT, get some ghosts and EMP. Not hard. | ||
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kariido
Saudi Arabia179 Posts
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:02 statikg wrote: Can you guys get off the stupid factory thing, its distracting from more valid points, thanks. Start a QQ about FF thread if you want bud. Or join the one that invariably exists somewhere. | ||
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30to1
105 Posts
On December 14 2010 04:45 statikg wrote: I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army. The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level. Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp. So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem. In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp). Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack. Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance. Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine. Thats a really good post with good points. I think you're probably exaggerating it a bit, but there is probably a lot of truth there. Questions: In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots Honestly, I've never seen this occur at anywhere near cost equality without colo or templar. Do you have links to this - because I think you're exaggerating. Maybe I'm too weak a player but bioball is so incredibly effective at dealing with gateway. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp). Do you think its possible that as toss have gotten better with FF - terran needs to get better with EMP? You say that FF usage has just recently hit a sort of tipping point - do you think that terrans have really mastered the use of ghosts both early and late - or is that still in the works? | ||
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HardCorey
United States709 Posts
Here it is: HardCorey QuestionTime #14: TvP ProReplay and Protoss PowerUnits My Main Thread Hope this Helps, -HardCorey | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
I don't feel like there is a good lategame stable transition in TvP. for Terran. Terran either opens up banshee, Thor, or Bio and then transition into Mech/Big Air/MMMGV but when what? Each of those compositions has their own weaknesses that Protoss can exploit late game but Terran can't cost efficiently respond to from their current composition (Armored Air Units, butt-ton of gateway units, storm respectively). I mean counters are counter but you shouldn't be able to counter everything in a unit composition. Its kinda frustrating but someone will eventually figure out how PvT should be played, I suppose. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
On December 14 2010 03:45 Wrongspeedy wrote: 1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp 1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp. 700 to 7 Colossus 1100 to 11 Immortals Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm. A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage. 960 to 12 Marauders standing still 22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh) So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not. I am sure clumping units together in a unit tester is fun, but it doesnt help balance this portion of the game. There are many other factors to consider, such as: 1) We need to stim, and one storm over a stimmed marine is either dead or under 10 health. Emp kills nothing, it just takes shields away, and your base unit has a lot more HP than it does shields. To put this more simply, storms KILLS stuff while emp hurts stuff. 2) In order not to die, we need to *RUN*, and when *running* we are not doing damage, and you ARE doing damage. As soon as we stop running, another storm makes us get our nike's back on again. 3) You can blanket the entire area with storms forcing T to just die or run away and have half health remaining (unless of course you lead your army with all your templars clumped together so that we can hit them all nice and neat). 4) There is very little chance of you hitting the maximum amount of units with one emp, and once emp hits, casting another one is useless, unlike storm. Storm can be re-cast, even on top of each other, and become more effective. 5) The combination of FF and storm really does make bio useless in any head to head encounter. These two in combination make positioning a total loss for bio. 6) Positioning in battle in TvP is very very important because of FF and colossus range, and Storm can completely shape the formation of the battle position, since you can not stand under the storm. So, even if you get good position, you are forced OUT of your good position because storms will kill you. 7) The unit that casts storm also has a zapping spell to take out the one unit that helps us survive or recover from a storm fest, I speak of course of the medivac. P gets free medivacs with its rediculous shield recovery rate. 8) To go along with #7, if your toss army gets emped in the open field, you can run away. If you are a bad player or just unlucky, and we do happen to zap all your temps, just run and get your shields back. By the time you run half way across Xelnaga caverns, all of your z's are back to full sheilds without having an army of 100/100 units flying over them. Just a few points about the real game vs unit tester clumping shots. | ||
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:09 30to1 wrote: Thats a really good post with good points. I think you're probably exaggerating it a bit, but there is probably a lot of truth there. Questions: Honestly, I've never seen this occur at anywhere near cost equality without colo or templar. Do you have links to this - because I think you're exaggerating. Maybe I'm too weak a player but bioball is so incredibly effective at dealing with gateway. Do you think its possible that as toss have gotten better with FF - terran needs to get better with EMP? You say that FF usage has just recently hit a sort of tipping point - do you think that terrans have really mastered the use of ghosts both early and late - or is that still in the works? Sorry to answer someone else's questions, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I have personally been crushed by Gateway armies that use FF well. I was 3 Rax-ing and they were 3 Gating, so it's not that I got out-massed, but for example, in Lost Temple, FF just makes it impossible for Terran to successfully fight anywhere but in the center. If I fight at the choke just past my natural, they can cut my army with ~4 FFs, and then just shoot things down with Stalkers. If I engage AT my natural, they can stop reinforcements with 1 FF on the ramp, and a wall of 2-3 starting from the cliff edge close to my ramp will force my army to run around to a new concave. If I fight anywhere but exactly the middle, they can FF along the walls that shield the Xel'Naga Towers to restrict army movement, and if I fight on the Gold expansion area I am beyond screwed. As to the EMP- I don't think it's that reasonable a counter for 3 reasons: 1. Ghosts are really expensive. Having them to counter Sentries is just not economically viable, especially since you have to keep up with your Marauder count to fight Stalkers, since for the price of one Ghost Academy and one Ghost, you can get 3 extra Sentries, and if those Sentries are not currently locking lips my one Ghost cannot stop all 3. 2. Ghosts need to get their EMPs off before the fight begins, Protoss does not. EMP on a spent Sentry or HT is pointless, so my Ghosts must get into position faster. Cloaking helps, but that's another 150/150, and one forward scouting Observer and one Observer with the main army will spot the Ghosts very quickly (and since Ravens are not common at all, I'd have to blow an EMP or Scan on the Observer). 3. Feedback outranges EMP. For a Ghost to EMP he MUST have 100 energy (oh, right, to whoever said that Ghosts can EMP out the Rax, I think you're wrong), which means that any time he is spotted a HT can just one-shot him and still have energy leftover for Storm. Since Ghosts generally try to get their EMPs before a fight starts (and are pretty easy to spot due to having energy bars), they're also very vulnerable to the units they're supposed to counter. | ||
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Willes
Germany199 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
If they get that, you'll lose a large percentage of those games, and the times you're still in the game and they have it still, suddenly the goal is "snipe the templar archives with drops" which is usually not viable at all lmao. But you have to try. And yeh...you need ghosts vs the templar, but you need to pray to whatever deity you worship for miracle emps, and that they don't just lol @ you and switch back to collosus+templars+gates. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:21 Willes wrote: waiting for the day terranplayers start adding blueflame hellions to the MMM army in mid/lategame, oh and maybe some ravens with pdd spam too... What I want to do is go Marauder Hellion + some sort of AA (vikings/BC) but I haven't figured out how yet. | ||
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:21 Willes wrote: waiting for the day terranplayers start adding blueflame hellions to the MMM army in mid/lategame, oh and maybe some ravens with pdd spam too... Ravens are HT bait, with their FB spell that most people don't even remember exists. PDD also do not affect Storms, Colossi, Zealots or Sentries. Seeker and Auto-Turret also does near nothing against Protoss with 10-range FB, and a Raven costs the same gas as a Colossus. Blueflame Hellions are good, but require micro, which may be hard when you are already running your entire army away from Storms, repositioning due to FFs, trying to EMP the Protoss, getting the Vikings into position to snipe Colossi, etc etc. I don't think anyone can claim that Hellions are a non-micro intensive unit that can just A-Move at things and expect to win (even Zerglings beat them if they A-Move). | ||
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Willes
Germany199 Posts
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote: Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas? This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas. And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes. | ||
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30to1
105 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:21 Scare_Crow wrote: Sorry to answer someone else's questions, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I have personally been crushed by Gateway armies that use FF well. I was 3 Rax-ing and they were 3 Gating, so it's not that I got out-massed, but for example, in Lost Temple, FF just makes it impossible for Terran to successfully fight anywhere but in the center. If I fight at the choke just past my natural, they can cut my army with ~4 FFs, and then just shoot things down with Stalkers. If I engage AT my natural, they can stop reinforcements with 1 FF on the ramp, and a wall of 2-3 starting from the cliff edge close to my ramp will force my army to run around to a new concave. If I fight anywhere but exactly the middle, they can FF along the walls that shield the Xel'Naga Towers to restrict army movement, and if I fight on the Gold expansion area I am beyond screwed. As to the EMP- I don't think it's that reasonable a counter for 3 reasons: 1. Ghosts are really expensive. Having them to counter Sentries is just not economically viable, especially since you have to keep up with your Marauder count to fight Stalkers, since for the price of one Ghost Academy and one Ghost, you can get 3 extra Sentries, and if those Sentries are not currently locking lips my one Ghost cannot stop all 3. 2. Ghosts need to get their EMPs off before the fight begins, Protoss does not. EMP on a spent Sentry or HT is pointless, so my Ghosts must get into position faster. Cloaking helps, but that's another 150/150, and one forward scouting Observer and one Observer with the main army will spot the Ghosts very quickly (and since Ravens are not common at all, I'd have to blow an EMP or Scan on the Observer). 3. Feedback outranges EMP. For a Ghost to EMP he MUST have 100 energy (oh, right, to whoever said that Ghosts can EMP out the Rax, I think you're wrong), which means that any time he is spotted a HT can just one-shot him and still have energy leftover for Storm. Since Ghosts generally try to get their EMPs before a fight starts (and are pretty easy to spot due to having energy bars), they're also very vulnerable to the units they're supposed to counter. I don't really want to just argue random bullshit opinions - I'm honestly curious about this match (not saying your opinion is bs, but most forum msgs are). As for the 3 gate > 3 rax I don't mean to be offensive, but I would really like to see some replays or videos. I've just really never seen roughly cost equal armies here end up with P ahead using pure gateway (after armies hit like 20+ supply). Getting tech support is so critical for P since bioball scales DPS so effectively vs gateway. I would THINK that what you're saying about the 3 gate > 3 rax was really more an issue of raw positioning or inequality of cost - which is why I'd like to see vid or replay. As for Ghosts - EMP is really under utilized by terran players in most of the games I've played / seen. People use ghosts as a counter to templar - they should really be part of core in every terran army. It's sort of like how many toss players fuck up in forgetting to mix in sentries to their late game armies - terran fucks up in neglecting ghosts in their early/mid game. | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
On December 14 2010 00:09 TERRANLOL wrote: I'm inclined to believe that we just can't remain using infantry in the end game. But what other good compositions are there? I think I'm going to experiment with tanks and hellions.... perhaps ghosts and marauders as well, to absorb damage and do spells. The toss version of MMM is essentially a big ball of as many types of toss units that can possibly be made. In this way, you have a counter to, and cannot be hard countered by, anything. We're tallking a ball of z's stalkers, sentries, immortals, colossi, and some type of templar. I never understood why terran don't take the same route. It's even easier for them because all their tech structures are linked. You will already have a factory and barracks if you have a starport... why not put them to use as well? Toss have to build a whole building for only a couple (or even just one) types of units. Terrans definately could stand to mix up their army composition a bit more. There are too many armies made up of only one or two types of units in modern games. Then it`d be all, like... Templar? Bam, ghosts bitch!... Colossi? Pow, vikings mofo!... oh no, void rays? Bang, ball o' marines sucka! P.S. You guys shouldn't be able to complain about not being able to counter units. That's what scanning is for. Toss are flying blind against you, take advantage of that shit! | ||
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
1st game: + Show Spoiler + Mana played really well. Note how kinda hided his army for potential scans (<- thats really smart). However Kaz didn't even scan (look at his vision). Kaz makes 6-8 vikings, expecting colossi. However Mana goes for templars and Kaz has no medivacs or ghost and a clump of useless vikings. Mana attacks before Kaz gold CC transforms into a planetary fortress. Not scouting the ht was Kaz'doom. 2nd game: + Show Spoiler + Kaz goes for a 3 rax scv allin againsts mana's expansion. Mana smartly backs off. Mana has now a probe and tech advantage. Kaz has a ton of marines wich instantly die to storm gg. Marrauders are far better against storm because they can survive it. Kaz lost because he allined in the early game, and while he did some damage he was far behind on tech. game3: + Show Spoiler + 1 rax expand is pretty risky. When toss suspects it, he can just 4 gate and kill you. I 've seen LiquidHuk do it on his stream. I have done it with succes (2912 diamond toss) and so does Mana. Game4 (gg): + Show Spoiler + While it might have seem that Servant was ahead, he made mistakes in the fight. HE OVERSTIMED!!! Every single time. watch it. at the 20 min mark he attacks the gold after a couple of good emps (the only good one I saw btw). He stims 3 times in 15 seconds. after having done a bunch of damage to mana at the gold, his 3* stimmed army moves to the natural and gets obliterated. He should have backed off and healed his army. At another time, he stims twice to take out a nexus, after what his stroops are killed off easily. I cannot stress enough the importance: overstimmed, low health bio dies instantly to storms. In the final confrontation, Servant loses 5 tanks without doing any damage(<- huge). Note how he overstims again  . Mana immediately goes for the production facilities, bypassing economical targets. gg.To people complaining that ht are imba: + Show Spoiler + I am 2912 toss on eu. i never make ht in PvP, PvZ. Never. Sometimes in PvT. They are hard to get, and make u vulnerable during your transition. Emp has longer range, and splash. Terran players at my level move out the storms, whereby my stupid zealots run forward and get hit by my own storms. Plus they don't rely on mmm whole game long, but add thors,tanks and ghost to the mix. Watch the top pros (like in Korea) etc play. u never see ht in PvP (obvious), very rarely in PvZ and sometimes in PvT. But we see far more often colossi or airtech and maybe even dts then ht. There is a reason to it. | ||
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:29 Willes wrote: well, maybe the maps are to small, but rushing 1 controlgrp of blueflamehellions behind the P-army for sniping templars seems to be a good trade for me, like this HT sniping with mutas in BW, if you want to play bio as T , you need to snipe hts That is a fair point, though the biggest gripe people generally have are Storms, which HTs tend to throw down pretty much immediately in a fight. The Protoss players I come up against generally keep their HTs either in the middle of their army or spread out, which makes it very hard to snipe them with Hellions until the fight actually started and his attention is elsewhere. Otherwise his army just auto-fires your Hellions to death. I've had more luck sneaking in individual Ghosts to Snipe his Templars, but still not too much. A group of Hellions behind him do work well against newly warped in Templars, though. | ||
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