EPTThe flaw of Automine/growing HOTS casual base - Page 5
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CptBeefheart
United States45 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:59 Godwrath wrote: Do i need to write them "your way" so you can understand the difference between autorally workers on mineral lines, to automining from the start ? Of course, now we are going to argue semantics. I really didn't see that one coming. if you followed a bit sc2 beta you'd know what it means. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10126 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:00 sAsImre wrote: if you followed a bit sc2 beta you'd know what it means. Didn't I just wrote them down for you ? And now we play the sc2 beta hipster game. You are full of surprises, aren't you ? | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:57 Butterednuts wrote: You really are making a mountain out of a molehill. Stop it. These changes are so minute that it hardly bears a paragraph talking about it. i think it's this attitude/apathy that will lead to the eventual over-automation of SC2 and the death of it as an esport. this game came out and it was called "easy" by the bw players and for good reason.. it is. lets fight for the small things before they turn into big things edit: i think that blizzard will continue to make this game easier in an effort to get more customers. if you look at any recent blizzard game (post activision) you will see that this is a pattern. the sc community is special though, and i think we can be and should be an exception to this. | ||
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XenoX101
Australia729 Posts
I think the main idea Blizzard could learn from this is that new players should be shown how to play the game rather than having their hand held while playing it. It's strange because they did take this approach with the simplified command card, yet seem to have completely ignored it when thinking of how to get players to produce and rally workers, saturate their base and select all their units. | ||
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cari-kira
Germany655 Posts
you should not play random on ladder! scnr;-) | ||
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Kyrao
United States161 Posts
Also, people need to stop being so elitist. Will this change help our bronze leaguers out there? I'm sure it will. Is that a bad thing? Fuck no it's not. The more our current bronze leaguers can focus on actual gameplay and mechanics, the more likely they will start to move up the ladder, elevating the ladder as a whole. If you think these changes will have any appreciable impact on the true skillcap of SC2 at the pro level, you are simply wrong. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:28 LgNKami wrote: I dont see a problem with automine at all. And if it makes the game a little easier for new people to understand, why not let them play? There are a lot of people who are scared away from sc2 because of how "complicated" the game is. Making some of the basic things, that everyone knows how to do anyway, a little easier for new people to understand is just fine. I want sc2 to grow, not get smaller. I feel like some people are missing the point. The point is NOT that I dislike auto mine. I am recognizing that blizzard might be trying to make it easier for casuals and suggesting why I think that their implementation hurts rather than helps new players. Just got back from class will address points slowly | ||
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Sepheren
United States66 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:28 Inex wrote: I don't think anyone else is really bothered by this, apart from some random dudes on the battle.net/TL forums. Boxing and sending my probes won't increase my skill, nor is the worker per base count. If you can't spend your money efficiently, no matter how facilitated the macro aspect becomes, you will still be a bad player. Let us all chill and enjoy the awesome new content. Incorrect. True, neither will increase your skill. However, if you've ever seen a low level player being coached by a pro, you know they have trouble managing the correct number of workers per base. That's part of the game. Here's my hyperbolic analogy: If you're going to send my workers to mine for me, and you build them for me too? Oh, and could you make some units too and send them over to my opponents base? Thanks! This game is meant to be played. While you need a level of AI in order for units to behave correctly when GIVEN orders, they should not be doing things without being commanded to do so. Anything contrary just plays for you while you spectate. Macro is a major part of SC2 gameplay. Figuring out, keeping track mentally (or by manually checking) are all ways to solve your own questions. RTS games are about finding answers to questions. If the game maker is going to supply you with those answers, then it might as well be a tutorial, not a game. Or for ages 5-11. | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:18 Sepheren wrote: Incorrect. True, neither will increase your skill. However, if you've ever seen a low level player being coached by a pro, you know they have trouble managing the correct number of workers per base. That's part of the game. Here's my hyperbolic analogy: If you're going to send my workers to mine for me, and you build them for me too? Oh, and could you make some units too and send them over to my opponents base? Thanks! This game is meant to be played. While you need a level of AI in order for units to behave correctly when GIVEN orders, they should not be doing things without being commanded to do so. Anything contrary just plays for you while you spectate. Macro is a major part of SC2 gameplay. Figuring out, keeping track mentally (or by manually checking) are all ways to solve your own questions. RTS games are about finding answers to questions. If the game maker is going to supply you with those answers, then it might as well be a tutorial, not a game. Or for ages 5-11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM&feature=related So you want the difference between bronze and gold to be people who can't count how many probes are on a mineral line? News flash for you people. Bronzers will still be bronzers and they will only be ever so slightly closer to the next skill level than before. It will only affect the people who can't macro and it wont be a huge game changing thing. Who cares if play improves at the bottom when all the pro posters here are surely not there. | ||
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hooktits
United States972 Posts
edit: are you trying to say bronze players can't fucking count??? lol sorry | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
I like it overall since it doesn't make much difference for my level anyway | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:47 SgtCoDFish wrote: I think I'm going to have to take a break from reading forums for a while to avoid threads discussing this where hundreds of people come out and say "they're making the game easier, my passion is being drained!!!" These changes are so freaking minor and people are jumping on them like they're huge. The sending workers to mine at the beginning thing is a great option for people who lag at the start. It lets them start on more equal footing. Pros shouldn't be using it in theory because splitting allows you more control as to where workers end up so they can be put on closer mineral patches. As for the worker counter: maybe it should be spectator only, but it's personal preference, really... which is why it's an option. The skill really isn't in counting the workers, it's in having the correct amount at each base, which isn't much skill anyway. And it's a beta, so posting stuff like this OP in blizzard's forums might be more use. There's scope for change. I did post it on blizzard forums as well. It's depressing how many people are reading the OP without understanding it. I never once said that" omg blizzard is ruining the game" My post is not about that. Everybody who doesn't understand why I would type all of this up about some skill cap that isn't affected at the high level has COMPLETELY missed the point of this. The auto mine certainly alleviates the lag problem. But it's a crappy fix at best, and downright lazy at worst. Blizzard could much more easily put in a countdown timer for a true even beginning or at least fix their code. With that in mind, this change must affect lower level players primarily. With that in mind (and it isn't just lag, because the lag issue has no bearing on the Your nexus to the mineral line because you can't make a probe until you are in game anyways). So, I looked at why the change was made for lower level players, and I explained that the way that they did it is WORSE for lower level players than a simple tool tipI never hated blizzard for making the game easier, I like the idea of it being more accessible to other players. But my post is about how blizzard could do it differently. This is not a thread complaining about auto mine in the way that other threads are. Rather, I am addressing why blizzard could implement a much easier solution for new players that could be MUCH more all encompassing than automine. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
Your hypothetical situation in which people get hurt or suffer from this change involves a player with zero RTS experience and no fundamental understanding of the game reaching the menu and deciding that the first game he ever plays of Sc2 is going to be a multiplayer quick match, and when he enters the game he's going to be mining minerals and have NO IDEA WHY. AND THATS BAD. I can see this situation affecting upwards of 8 people in the next three years, which is close to the number of people that panicked and quit SC2 to date upon entering the game and recognizing that they already had a command center and 50 minerals. Seriously, though, anyone that plays the campaign at all OR has a basic understanding of RTS games will quite likely figure out that workers give you money at the very most within 3 games. Arguing that it inhibits learning is foolish, because it is more than fair to assume that any player willing to enter a multiplayer game without that basic level of understanding won't take much offense to the "defeat!" screen that they'll see after several minutes of happily doing nothing and watching their money go up. The worker count actually encourages people to ask questions and learn (if they care enough), and I'd be surprised if there aren't any "CHALLENGE" maps that explain the two points in worker count that result in diminishing economic returns, and I can't fathom how anyone would suffer from this. If your own play is so bad that you're concerned that this formerly secret information is now available to "casuals" and that they might be able to beat you now, perhaps your personal tastes are better suited to DOTA, where you have a glorious wealth of nuanced esoteric knowledge about the game that you can abuse to best your less experienced opponents. I'm not attempting to insult you, OP, or claim you specifically are bad or stupid or whatever. You've shown you're not! I simply wish to clearly express how foolish it is to object to these simple changes on anything that isn't notedly a superficial level. They honestly don't change anything, and won't show up in tournaments and on streams. They're there in the interest of not having people gain advantages with secret information, and I can't see how that is bad for the game. | ||
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ghost_face
Australia33 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:31 Alryk wrote: I did post it on blizzard forums as well. It's depressing how many people are reading the OP without understanding it. I never once said that" omg blizzard is ruining the game" My post is not about that. Everybody who doesn't understand why I would type all of this up about some skill cap that isn't affected at the high level has COMPLETELY missed the point of this. The auto mine certainly alleviates the lag problem. But it's a crappy fix at best, and downright lazy at worst. Blizzard could much more easily put in a countdown timer for a true even beginning or at least fix their code. With that in mind, this change must affect lower level players primarily. With that in mind (and it isn't just lag, because the lag issue has no bearing on the Your nexus to the mineral line because you can't make a probe until you are in game anyways). So, I looked at why the change was made for lower level players, and I explained that the way that they did it is WORSE for lower level players than a simple tool tipI never hated blizzard for making the game easier, I like the idea of it being more accessible to other players. But my post is about how blizzard could do it differently. This is not a thread complaining about auto mine in the way that other threads are. Rather, I am addressing why blizzard could implement a much easier solution for new players that could be MUCH more all encompassing than automine. People are ignoring your argument because it's a bad argument. It's based on the player being completely oblivious and unable to learn. "Not only do they not know why their worker is moving, they don’t know how to get it to the minerals (this has already been done for them). They know they need to gather resources, but they have not seen that they need to actually make workers go to the mineral line. " No one is that stupid, and if they are, they are going to have much bigger problems in SC2 than getting their workers to mine. In (almost) any RTS, left click to select, right click on something to interact. If a player can't figure out that right clicking on a mineral line will make a worker mine, how are they going to understand how to attack or move units? How did they even launch the game if they didn't understand the concept of using a mouse to interact with things on a computer? Even if they can't figure it out, it's something they only have to learn once. You're claiming auto-mine/split is going to make the game harder for beginners, that's ridiculous. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:40 Staboteur wrote: Dear OP: Your hypothetical situation in which people get hurt or suffer from this change involves a player with zero RTS experience and no fundamental understanding of the game reaching the menu and deciding that the first game he ever plays of Sc2 is going to be a multiplayer quick match, and when he enters the game he's going to be mining minerals and have NO IDEA WHY. AND THATS BAD. I can see this situation affecting upwards of 8 people in the next three years, which is close to the number of people that panicked and quit SC2 to date upon entering the game and recognizing that they already had a command center and 50 minerals. Seriously, though, anyone that plays the campaign at all OR has a basic understanding of RTS games will quite likely figure out that workers give you money at the very most within 3 games. Arguing that it inhibits learning is foolish, because it is more than fair to assume that any player willing to enter a multiplayer game without that basic level of understanding won't take much offense to the "defeat!" screen that they'll see after several minutes of happily doing nothing and watching their money go up. The worker count actually encourages people to ask questions and learn (if they care enough), and I'd be surprised if there aren't any "CHALLENGE" maps that explain the two points in worker count that result in diminishing economic returns, and I can't fathom how anyone would suffer from this. If your own play is so bad that you're concerned that this formerly secret information is now available to "casuals" and that they might be able to beat you now, perhaps your personal tastes are better suited to DOTA, where you have a glorious wealth of nuanced esoteric knowledge about the game that you can abuse to best your less experienced opponents. I'm not attempting to insult you, OP, or claim you specifically are bad or stupid or whatever. You've shown you're not! I simply wish to clearly express how foolish it is to object to these simple changes on anything that isn't notedly a superficial level. They honestly don't change anything, and won't show up in tournaments and on streams. They're there in the interest of not having people gain advantages with secret information, and I can't see how that is bad for the game. I love seeing a post of somebody who actually understood what I was saying. A few things: I wrote this in between classes at uni, so my train of thought might have gotten disjointed. The point I was trying to get at overall, was that new players often are not very adept at picking up nuances in the game, and my examples probably were overblown when I wrote it. But the idea of this is that auto mine does not necessarily fix this problem, all it does is do step 1 of helping - workers mine minerals. On second glance of my ideas, they are neither the best nor the worst, and I still believe that what I suggested (tooltips) is a better implementation of helping new players than having a random automine. Another problem arises (as somebody who is not me brought up) when you expand. A new player will expect their probes to be automatically rallied to the minerals - not the case. This is actually an issue that my first suggestion (that needs to be edited out because it was already in the game) brings up, auto rallying your nexus to the minerals. Now, having laddered all the way up to high masters from bronze-goldish (never really sure with how beta worked  ) I know that there are simple things that people forget about in those levels. Worker production is one. It's an important aspect of the game. Worker Saturation is another, equally important aspect of the game in my opinion. Knowing how many workers goes to a base is (like I said earlier, but solely in my opinion) an aspect of "microing" your economy. Yes, it is kind of menial, but it requires an active attempt to learn something about the game and apply it to each particular situation (how many probes you have per game), much like keeping your army in a deathball versus a mass ling force, or splitting versus bane/fungal. Keeping your army in a deathball is a mindless task in and of itself, but it requires an active decision on your part based on the situation of the game. Even splitting is in some way mindless, because once you can do it, it is automatic. But deciding to split is an active participation in the game. My splits are nowehere near as good as MarineKing's, but my ability to do them is more or less automatic, the decision making (strategy) part comes in when I have to determine if splitting is a good idea. In terms of worker saturation, you KNOW it's a good idea, but you have to decide how you want to do it. And gaining the ability to optimally saturate your workers is something that takes active knowledge of the game, with the tooltip, you're taking away a tangible sense of "economic micro" in the game. Yes you can just "turn it off" but then you're at a disadvantage with players who have it on. That's the particular reason why I dislike it, and it is neither necessarily the best or the most valid, it's just mine. I also feel like it interrupts the flow of the game (every bit of information we have had prior has been graphical, minus the spell tooltips that nobody reads). I feel like it unnecessarily clutters the game, but that's a matter of opinion and most certainly subject to disagreement. I've also tried dota games, and I cannot possibly get into them. They're so boring XD. And I am most certainly not worried about new players catching up to me Someone earlier wanted me to distinguish between casuals and new players. I should have done that at the beginning, but if I had included "noobs" in my title, people would immediately have the mindset of "damn he's an elitist prick who just doesn't care about bronze." Casual is often (and erroneously) associated with new or bad, which is why I chose it. | ||
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:32 c0sm0naut wrote: okay. how do you feel about units like the siegetank being virtually replaced by the warhound? siege tanks have to focus fire to be useful many times vs good players, warhound will auto target units it gets a damage bonus against how do you feel about idle army key (similar to idle worker, except it selects all army)? shouldn't players be rewarded for hotkeying all their units? wasn't part of this "design idea" to break apart the deathball? strange and hypocritical to add a button like this how do you feel about the cc auto rallying to your minerals? were the 17 seconds in between starting worker 1 and 2 not enough time to do that? i just dont undersstand the rationale for these changes other than "we can make more money if more people play. if we make things easier, more people will play" all i was talking about was the automine feature. lol. I dont have anything to say about the warhound or the units in general as all I have done was seen HotS streams. | ||
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Kyrao
United States161 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:40 Staboteur wrote: Dear OP: Your hypothetical situation in which people get hurt or suffer from this change involves a player with zero RTS experience and no fundamental understanding of the game reaching the menu and deciding that the first game he ever plays of Sc2 is going to be a multiplayer quick match, and when he enters the game he's going to be mining minerals and have NO IDEA WHY. AND THATS BAD. I can see this situation affecting upwards of 8 people in the next three years, which is close to the number of people that panicked and quit SC2 to date upon entering the game and recognizing that they already had a command center and 50 minerals. Seriously, though, anyone that plays the campaign at all OR has a basic understanding of RTS games will quite likely figure out that workers give you money at the very most within 3 games. Arguing that it inhibits learning is foolish, because it is more than fair to assume that any player willing to enter a multiplayer game without that basic level of understanding won't take much offense to the "defeat!" screen that they'll see after several minutes of happily doing nothing and watching their money go up. The worker count actually encourages people to ask questions and learn (if they care enough), and I'd be surprised if there aren't any "CHALLENGE" maps that explain the two points in worker count that result in diminishing economic returns, and I can't fathom how anyone would suffer from this. If your own play is so bad that you're concerned that this formerly secret information is now available to "casuals" and that they might be able to beat you now, perhaps your personal tastes are better suited to DOTA, where you have a glorious wealth of nuanced esoteric knowledge about the game that you can abuse to best your less experienced opponents. I'm not attempting to insult you, OP, or claim you specifically are bad or stupid or whatever. You've shown you're not! I simply wish to clearly express how foolish it is to object to these simple changes on anything that isn't notedly a superficial level. They honestly don't change anything, and won't show up in tournaments and on streams. They're there in the interest of not having people gain advantages with secret information, and I can't see how that is bad for the game. Quoting for truth. Well written post that sums up a lot of what I was thinking, but too lazy to type out. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
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