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I don't know has somebody already came up with this, but I have a solution to the lag that may occur in the begining of the game. In my solution you dont need to make the workers automine and it will even make the game feel more like esports.
My solution: At the begining of the game the time would "freeze" and no actions could be done. The lag that some players may get would occur now. After the begining there would be a countdown like in sports in general. So it would go like:
3...
2...
1...
And then the player could make a woker and send the 6 first workers to mine and split them.
I think the start of the game is part of the game and the esports. Like in the start of a sprint the countdown is big part of the whole thing. Imagine if they could fix the sprint in a way, that everybody would start running at the exact time X.
Making a good start recuires concentration, good reflexes and accuracy. Please Blizzard don't take it away.
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On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote:
Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
It ONLY helps lower league players? How can you not see the problem in that? Counting workers and moving them around is a small edge you gain, that starts showing up to masters league and then it vanishes because everyone does it, yes.
You know we could say stalkers should auto-blink themselves, it would only help lower league players anyway, top korean protosses wouldn't lose anything..they already have insane blink micro.
Once you start removing these small things the GAP between lower league players and higher league players becomes smaller.
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On September 06 2012 17:47 Andr3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote:
Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing. It ONLY helps lower league players? How can you not see the problem in that? Counting workers and moving them around is a small edge you gain, that starts showing up to masters league and then it vanishes because everyone does it, yes. You know we could say stalkers should auto-blink themselves, it would only help lower league players anyway, top korean protosses wouldn't lose anything..they already have insane blink micro. Once you start removing these small things the GAP between lower league players and higher league players becomes smaller.
And as I stated previously, it is most definitely not a trivial thing to have a few workers mining sub-optimally. It is ~30 minerals a minute lost, which is a huge deal. Even if it is true that everyone who is masters and above can do this well, I don't think that it is true that they will achieve this perfectly all of the time, even when under great pressure. And even if it is not necessarily something that separates players at the highest level in of itself, the fact that you do it in conjunction with many other activities means you must have great multitasking and APM to play the game. Its not like in any other sport trivial things are dumbed down at the highest level to make things easier for new people approaching the game. In fact, in many cases amateur competitions will have different rules to a game to be more accommodating to those who are less skilled or less experienced than those at the highest level. I think if people are really intent of having this counter in place to aid lower level players then the same approach should be taken, have such training wheels in place for those who play at the lowest level.
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I wonder why something like an ingame count down or read set go isn't implemented instead. In fighting games we hear something like Ready - ACTION! In some of these the player can position their fighter. In this someone could set up hotkeys and waypoints for any RTS game. Now the game is about your choices rather than just the actions and load speed.
The sad part is that SC2 isn't supplying the player with fascinating choices from game start if this is truely an issue and that is by no means a success.
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While I don't like the idea of auto-mine (aside from laggy starts...but unfortunately lag IS going to make the game harder so..kinda silly to try and "fix" lag by automatically doing things for the player), I don't really think that it is going to HURT new players to the game..new players are new players and they are going to figure things out one way or another. I didn't know immediately that I could rally my base to the mineral patch when SC2 came out, how is adding auto mine going to make you suddenly not be able to realize you can rally workers? It wasn't obvious without it and it won't be obvious with it. It changes nothing in that regard. I personally don't like the idea because it takes away any TINY advantage you might get from splitting workers quickly and accurately and producing that worker really fast.
SOLUTION IDEA:
Allow this to ONLY be available to players in Bronze League
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On September 06 2012 18:47 kmillz wrote:
While I don't like the idea of auto-mine (aside from laggy starts...but unfortunately lag IS going to make the game harder so..kinda silly to try and "fix" lag by automatically doing things for the player), I don't really think that it is going to HURT new players to the game..new players are new players and they are going to figure things out one way or another. I didn't know immediately that I could rally my base to the mineral patch when SC2 came out, how is adding auto mine going to make you suddenly not be able to realize you can rally workers? It wasn't obvious without it and it won't be obvious with it. It changes nothing in that regard. I personally don't like the idea because it takes away any TINY advantage you might get from splitting workers quickly and accurately and producing that worker really fast.
SOLUTION IDEA:
Allow this to ONLY be available to players in Bronze League
I did actually think about this too. If you can't even get the basics down, like sending your workers to mine, you're going to end up in bronze, so it would be logical to turn this on there.
There are no circumstances where that worker count tooltip should be on, as that's simply and directly removing a skill element from the game.
I think the solution to the automine-lag issue would be to simply wait on the loading screen a little longer and make sure a few more things are loaded / optimise it before sending players into the game.
However the "automine-lag issue" that people are now discussing is not an issue. It never was an issue throughout BW and SC2. If you are lagging that much, just the start won't save you. Not that you could lag enough to make a huge difference at this point without just disconnecting.
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That blizzard add feature like automine, auto-rally and worker count per base means that they downplay economy management. Economy management is at the very heart of strategy.
That is what make it so disheartening when they just diss the very core to any strategy and basically saying it is trivial. Yes, it can be hard and it should be hard if you want a competitive scene at all.
Now the only way you can differentiate in economy management is when you put down your geyser and maynarding and how many workers you maynard.
Changing it so you can see how many workers that mine at your base like geyers in WoL is a much better way to fix it. Then you can have a tooltip or whatever saying that "24 workers is sufficient to saturate a base".
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On September 06 2012 19:06 Tone_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 18:47 kmillz wrote:
While I don't like the idea of auto-mine (aside from laggy starts...but unfortunately lag IS going to make the game harder so..kinda silly to try and "fix" lag by automatically doing things for the player), I don't really think that it is going to HURT new players to the game..new players are new players and they are going to figure things out one way or another. I didn't know immediately that I could rally my base to the mineral patch when SC2 came out, how is adding auto mine going to make you suddenly not be able to realize you can rally workers? It wasn't obvious without it and it won't be obvious with it. It changes nothing in that regard. I personally don't like the idea because it takes away any TINY advantage you might get from splitting workers quickly and accurately and producing that worker really fast.
SOLUTION IDEA:
Allow this to ONLY be available to players in Bronze League I did actually think about this too. If you can't even get the basics down, like sending your workers to mine, you're going to end up in bronze, so it would be logical to turn this on there. There are no circumstances where that worker count tooltip should be on, as that's simply and directly removing a skill element from the game. I think the solution to the automine-lag issue would be to simply wait on the loading screen a little longer and make sure a few more things are loaded / optimise it before sending players into the game. However the "automine-lag issue" that people are now discussing is not an issue. It never was an issue throughout BW and SC2. If you are lagging that much, just the start won't save you. Not that you could lag enough to make a huge difference at this point without just disconnecting.
I agree, worker count tool tip too much. auto-mine too much. starcraft 2 already eliminates an incredibly large amount of the micro required from BW, it doesn't need more simplifying. If you lag it is not the communities problem that your computer/connection are lacking, sorry, but I remember playing BW on 56k, it was rough but I still won games and didnt need the game to "micro" for me while the game is starting!
EDIT: Also, if my graphic settings are too high, I lag and it becomes difficult to play the game, not just send workers to mineral line...so yeah, lag is an issue you need to solve on your own because its going to hinder your entire games performance alot more than those extra 50-150 minerals you lost.
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The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. This is not fucking BW - the UI is not obtusive and annoying. It is meant to provide information that a player can easily access. I mean christ - you can click on an opponents unit and determine their upgrade value as well as their health and their composition. Why exactly have you suddenly promoted COUNTING to a skill that only gosu gamers have?
Last I checked, counting was something babies learned.
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On September 06 2012 19:36 Evangelist wrote:
The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. This is not fucking BW - the UI is not obtusive and annoying. It is meant to provide information that a player can easily access. I mean christ - you can click on an opponents unit and determine their upgrade value as well as their health and their composition. Why exactly have you suddenly promoted COUNTING to a skill that only gosu gamers have?
Last I checked, counting was something babies learned.
Every second is important when players are performing between 150-250 actions per minute, and if it takes you a couple less seconds to identify the exact number of units, yes it DOES change the game at high levels. Looking at your units and identifying how many there are based on a picture may take one player a second, it could take another 3-4 seconds or longer, but why don't we just let blizzard hold our hands through every process of the game. Next they should start having options to check off whether you want your buildings to automatically start units or create add-ons or research upgrades as soon as they are finished? Babies count. Wow. That is an impressive arguement for your point.
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1) it removes a skill, therefore a degree of interaction with the game,
2) it is too forgiving. Consider that player who has unwittingly forgot to place a third worker in each of his vespene geysers. " -Gosugamers-
This is exactly why! Please remove this
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On September 06 2012 19:45 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 19:36 Evangelist wrote:
The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. This is not fucking BW - the UI is not obtusive and annoying. It is meant to provide information that a player can easily access. I mean christ - you can click on an opponents unit and determine their upgrade value as well as their health and their composition. Why exactly have you suddenly promoted COUNTING to a skill that only gosu gamers have?
Last I checked, counting was something babies learned. Every second is important when players are performing between 150-250 actions per minute, and if it takes you a couple less seconds to identify the exact number of units, yes it DOES change the game at high levels. Looking at your units and identifying how many there are based on a picture may take one player a second, it could take another 3-4 seconds or longer, but why don't we just let blizzard hold our hands through every process of the game. Next they should start having options to check off whether you want your buildings to automatically start units or create add-ons or research upgrades as soon as they are finished? Babies count. Wow. That is an impressive arguement for your point.
If you are at 250 actions per minute, counting how many scvs you have at each base requires approximately 0.24 seconds per check. You add another action involved in jumping between bases. Since pro gamers prioritise really heavily (the macro cycle), all they are doing is boxing the mineral line and counting how many lines are filled. When you get to 32 workers, the mineral line is VISIBLY over-saturated, as in, you don't even need to count.
This change simply removes the pointless boxing and counting. The actual check is still necessary which is the important part. The transferring workers, the building extra bases, all of that is still necessary. You remove 1 action for every base check. Nothing else.
You are arguing over a maximum of 8 actions per minute.
1) it removes a skill, therefore a degree of interaction with the game,
2) it is too forgiving. Consider that player who has unwittingly forgot to place a third worker in each of his vespene geysers. " -Gosugamers-
1. It removes an action. The skill itself is the same. A bronzie is still going to ask "wtf is this counter".
2. The counter for the vespene geysers is already there. It's on the vespene geyser. I click it automatically.
You people really don't have any arguments. You just want to complain for the sake of complaining. If you want to complain, I recommend you focus on the warhound which has broken every terran matchup in beta, cheers. Not crap like this which only benefits bronze leaguers and just removes a few actions per minute for everyone else.
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On September 06 2012 19:36 Evangelist wrote:
The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. This is not fucking BW - the UI is not obtusive and annoying. It is meant to provide information that a player can easily access. I mean christ - you can click on an opponents unit and determine their upgrade value as well as their health and their composition. Why exactly have you suddenly promoted COUNTING to a skill that only gosu gamers have?
Last I checked, counting was something babies learned.
Yeah you didn't really think about this did you? Well done though, you've defined counting. The clear point, which you did miss, is that you can't exactly count your workers quickly and efficiently straight off. It involves being able to have good judgement, and good knowledge of how much you've been producing workers.
If you don't understand the point in the slightest, it's probably not best to write condescending comments insulting other peoples opinions.
"Counting" hasn't suddenly become anything special in regards to change. If ANY additional changes were added that remove skill elements from the game, people would take issue with it. Like auto-mining...
On September 06 2012 19:57 Evangelist wrote:
1. It removes an action. The skill itself is the same. A bronzie is still going to ask "wtf is this counter".
2. The counter for the vespene geysers is already there. It's on the vespene geyser. I click it automatically.
You people really don't have any arguments. You just want to complain for the sake of complaining. If you want to complain, I recommend you focus on the warhound which has broken every terran matchup in beta, cheers. Not crap like this which only benefits bronze leaguers and just removes a few actions per minute for everyone else.
Well "us people" do have an argument, and it's quite clearly presented. Just because you require additional help to play the game, doesn't make your opinion the only valid one. To say people are complaining for the sake of it is pathetic. Accept people have differing opinions or I guess don't bother posting.
In an attempt to actually explain the points though... Small actions like this are what people enjoy. There's no difference between this and numerous other repetitive actions. It does not help bronze who've played more than one game in the slightest, meaning it's very simply, a part of gameplay that is automated. Which begs the question 'why'?
You even described yourself the process of checking for mineral line saturation (the issue being under-saturation as opposed to over-saturation for lower level players). This is a skill. It is one that anyone can improve and is quite easily measurable. All this change does is remove having that skill as an advantage. No comparisons need be made to any other action or any other change. Simply right here, right now, it's removing something that good players have learned. If you're a lower level player who's bad at it, that's fine. You'll improve I guess. You'll be facing people of equal skill until you do so.
Microing is quite hard too for lower level players, why not automate it? Why not have a "constantly make workers" button while you're at it?
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So you agree it removes a skill, yet still argue that it is a necessary change to the game? Why is removing a skill necessary at all, when boxing and counting has never been an issue before?
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On September 06 2012 17:47 Andr3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote:
Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing. It ONLY helps lower league players? How can you not see the problem in that? Counting workers and moving them around is a small edge you gain, that starts showing up to masters league and then it vanishes because everyone does it, yes. You know we could say stalkers should auto-blink themselves, it would only help lower league players anyway, top korean protosses wouldn't lose anything..they already have insane blink micro. Once you start removing these small things the GAP between lower league players and higher league players becomes smaller.
Slippery slope slippery slope slippery slope.
It's like two/three clicks at the beginning of the game. It's weird and unnecessary and maybe it is indicative of a larger issue with Blizzard's idea for the game but of itself it doesn't lower the gap between lower and higher league players by even the smallest noticeable amount.
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HAHAHA oh my god.
You platin players, aka "those who perfected minor things like worker splitting for several months and now think this has a huge effect" or "I can't understand why I'm still plat, my enemy can't even worker split" simply don't understand that:
1) It doesn't take skill to split workers
2) It's a minor thing, that didn't win one game ever
3) It's just a change of fairness for players with starting lag
Seriously.. complain about other things in this game. It has more than enough flaws for you eternal QQers, but this small little change, that take away a bit of your elitism ("I'm a worker splitting, worker counting gosu. Still plat though, enemies cheese constantly T___T") is not one of it's problems.
Idiot.
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On September 06 2012 20:47 lolnice wrote:
HAHAHA oh my god.
You platin players, aka "those who perfected minor things like worker splitting for several months and now think this has a huge effect" or "I can't understand why I'm still plat, my enemy can't even worker split" simply don't understand that:
1) It doesn't take skill to split workers
2) It's a minor thing, that didn't win one game ever
3) It's just a change of fairness for players with starting lag
Seriously.. complain about other things in this game. It has more than enough flaws for you eternal QQers, but this small little change, that take away a bit of your elitism ("I'm a worker splitting, worker counting gosu. Still plat though, enemies cheese constantly T___T") is not one of it's problems.
Idiot.
The fact that you don't understand the importance of optimal worker saturations brings your own intelligence into question, as does your apparent need to insult people that you don't agree with. How do you even know what league we are in?
Its not elitism, I just would like the game to be a display of skill, and few other things display a players skill than them just having more units than their opponent due to perfect macro. Sure, worker saturation may be an unexciting thing from a viewer point of view, but so are things like mineral pairing. It would be ridiculous to suggest to take the feature of mineral pairing out of the game to make it easier for lower level players to achieve optimal mining.
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This entire change is to help those that load into the game early. This is not reflective of "trying to remove extra actions". Some people load into the game a few seconds after the game actually starts and that sets them behind. Now with the actions being server-side and not reliant on the player's computer or network the game will start out more fairly.
Stop talking about how this will make it easier for noobies and how they're making the game easy because it isn't about that.
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On September 06 2012 17:07 exog wrote:
I totally disagree with OP.
Casual players need this help to focus on the game and the strategies. The pros allready do this "perfectly" and gain little, while the casuals can enjoy the game more.
I have lost tons of games due to bad worker micro and this is really a welcome addition that helps casuals without affecting pro-players very much.
Great job blizzard!
Wait you realize my post was about helping new players learn the game in a more effective way than we currently have, right?
As far as worker micro - doesn't that mean you should properly learn to micro your workers? (An opinion but oh well)
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On September 06 2012 20:45 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 17:47 Andr3 wrote:On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote:
Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing. It ONLY helps lower league players? How can you not see the problem in that? Counting workers and moving them around is a small edge you gain, that starts showing up to masters league and then it vanishes because everyone does it, yes. You know we could say stalkers should auto-blink themselves, it would only help lower league players anyway, top korean protosses wouldn't lose anything..they already have insane blink micro. Once you start removing these small things the GAP between lower league players and higher league players becomes smaller. Slippery slope slippery slope slippery slope. It's like two/three clicks at the beginning of the game. It's weird and unnecessary and maybe it is indicative of a larger issue with Blizzard's idea for the game but of itself it doesn't lower the gap between lower and higher league players by even the smallest noticeable amount.
I was reffering to the saturation counter that is present on the main buildings..
And that definetely lowers the gap. Atm, in WoL you gotta either go select everything fast - count the workers and re-arrange them if need be. Or you do it by feeling which is what most pros do, you gauge how many you need and send them around. Removing this by having a number counter that does this for you basically does lessen the gap between worse and better players in fact. If you don't see it I don't know what to say.
Having for example 5 scvs in surplus in a mineral field is a BIG waste, it's 250 minerals + 5 supply + time lost on other patches, which is about ~150 minerals/min IIRC.
Now fast-forward to HotS, everyone has perfect saturation everywhere and they're being effective - an element of the game removed because Blizzard for some reason wants us to be lazy fucks.
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EPT
