Disclaimer: Somebody made a post on this, but I think that mine addresses something different entirely, with the only similarity being that they both have automine. My issue is not necessarily "dumbing down the skill level" but moreso how it is done.
Another Update: this is not pointless whine about how automine is useless. I believe it has a place in the game, but I disagree with its intended purpose. Blizzard could have done better. If you have come to complain about how it's useless whine on a pointless feature that doesn't change the skill cap, I respectfully request that you please take that complaint to a thread that discusses such a thing.
Another update: I guess I will add a TL;DR with my most recent thoughts at the bottom.
And I guess this could be a blog, but I thought more eyes might see it here... if it should be, then move it to blog please?
My thoughts on Auto mine and “Worker Count” per base, and why it is a fundamentally flawed way of reducing the skill level of the game for casual players
(Putting this at the top: I am aware that the auto mine is also a bug fix for people who load late into the game. But this thread is still relevant if there is ANY hint of this decision being made for new players)
Introduction
First of all, I am immensely enjoying the HOTS beta, and I am in no way taking this for granted or anything. Secondly, I would like to say that I amaware that these functions can be “disabled” through the options. The point of this post is why Blizzard is attempting to make the game easier (in my eyes) and also why they are going the wrong way about it.
The Changes For anybody who hasn’t played the heart of the swarm beta yet, there is a new function that automatically sends your initial six workers to mine minerals. Essentially, it boxes your workers, and right clicks on the middle mineral patch and they all get to work. I believe that Blizzard’s intention in this is to show newer players the concept/idea in the beginning of the game. Much like the auto-mining and unlimited selection implemented with Wings of Liberty, it could be argued that a function like this is intended to make the game more available for newer players, and easier to understand.
The second change is the “worker counts” per base. Basically, if you have 14 workers mining minerals, then it displays “Worker Count: 14/24” over your Nexus/CC/Hatchery. And for Gas, it displays “Workers: 1/3” over each individual gas. This change by itself isn’t as big of a deal as the initial change, but I will try and address it as well.
The “Idea” behind the changes Blizzard wants to make the game easier for casual players. This is evident with the relative dumbing down of mechanics compared to Brood War. By queuing workers to go mine for you, I think that Blizzard intends to lead you into the idea that “oh, my workers need to mine minerals.” This in itself is a good idea, but I think it is badly implemented (my solution later). With the worker count tooltip, blizzard wants to give you the idea of “oh, I shouldn’t have more than 24 workers.” If you know that you have 25/24, it seems reasonable for somebody who has never even played the game to say “one worker is going to waste.” This idea is to help lower level players manage their economies – now you won’t get bronze players who know how to produce SCVs, but have 37 on one base, and 4 on the other. While this idea isn’t necessarily flawed, and it could even be relevant in the game, I’m not sure it has a place either.
The Inherent Problem (As I see it) So, we want to make the game easier for new players. We can do this by sending their workers to mine right? I disagree. There are two main problems with this. First, a new player needs to understand how their workers are getting to the minerals. Let’s think about (in Wings of Liberty) the actions that need to be performed in the first five seconds of the game.
1) Send workers to the minerals to mine 2) Queue a worker to build 3) Rally your nexus to the minerals
Now, think about what is inherent to an RTS. Even somebody who has never played Starcraft II before should know that at the heart of any strategy game is the need to obtain resources and turn those resources into an army. Therefore, it should make sense to (at some point) tell your workers to mine. The hardest part should be realizing that those 6 little bugs/machines/people are workers. But that’s different. This information should be inherent to anybody trying out RTS. Taking that assumption is the basis of my post.
Now, let’s think about what is NOT inherent. Rallying workers. Even if you know that you need to gather resources, not as many people may gather that you need to choose your nexus and right click on the minerals. And even worse, the new change may make this problem even harder to understand. If your first six workers go straight to mine, a new player might assume that this is always the case (rational to me at least). This means they should not need to set a rally! So they build there worker, and all of a sudden it pops out and doesn’t do anything, and they are confused. + Show Spoiler +
Spoiling out because it's not needed/overblown on second glance. Not only do they not know why their worker is moving, they don’t know how to get it to the minerals (this has already been done for them). They know they need to gather resources, but they have not seen that they need to actually make workers go to the mineral line. So: the worker automine causes two problems. First, it performs a function that should be basic knowledge to somebody playing a RTS (I need to gather resources). Secondly, it removes the “idea” that the player needs to rally workers to the mineral line. It creates the impression that this is automatically done.
NOW………..
We get to the mineral count/base idea. I think this idea could work. As a masters player who sucks at it, I actually like the idea of it. But I don’t think it should be in the game. This is why: The majority of information in the HUD of Starcraft II is graphical, not text based. You have a minimap. You have unit portraits to count, not “10 zealots, 5 sentries, stalker.” Fungal growth has a portrait and a tooltip, but not many people actually bother using the tooltip, they know what the spell is by the picture. And in the idea of grid layout for hotkeys, the spells are arranged in such a way that they form a logical “grid” – all graphical representations. So in a game where we have all of our information “outside the game” displayed in a graphical way, we now have information being displayed to us in a textual way. There isn’t anything necessarily wrong with this, and this is where my opinion is much less logical/rational and more a matter of consistency, but I believe that the “Worker count per base” idea interferes with the consistency of the game and just does not fit into the general flow of Starcraft II. The information is just projected incorrectly.
My Solutions
Now let’s revisit the core problems. We know that (if you take my logic) the automine interferes with both knowledge of needing to rally troops, and the idea of how to get workers to mine. Additionally, the idea they’re trying to implement is something that is much more ingrained into the idea of an RTS than say, rallying troops. So, my solution is this: Instead of making units automine, require players to send their own workers to the minerals. Additionally, automatically rally the Nexus/Command Center/Hatchery to the minerals. + Show Spoiler +
This is irrelevant because it's already in the game
How many players in bronze-silver do you see without worker rallies? I have seen plenty of games (from my friends and otherwise) where they don’t rally new workers to minerals, nor do they know how to set a rally. By automatically rallying your workers, the new players can be aware that newly created workers are rallied to minerals when they see a worker “walk” to the mineral patch. This doesn’t affect anybody over gold in any way whatsoever, and I think it’s an excellent way to cover one of the crutches/confusions of being new.
Additionally, implement tooltips seen in dota games like League of Legends. Think of the champion selection screen – if you are new, it tells you how to choose a champion, how to lock in, select summoner spells etc. These tooltips, most importantly, provide no in game differences/advantages to players, rather they teach you how to play. The tooltips in the loading screen aren’t really enough. Blizzard has already done it with wow, they can easily have it enabled in Starcraft II. At the beginning of the game, a simple “Left click to box your workers, and right click on minerals to make them mine” would suffice. Additionally, as soon as they click on the Nexus, a tooltip that says “your nexus has been automatically rallied to the minerals. Newly trained workers will automatically mine. To re-rally your units, do this…” would be possible.
This makes the game (in my opinion) even more user-friendly than the current implementation, while being non-obtrusive to better players. It also provides no tangible in-game benefit to players who have it enabled versus disabled. Yes, you can disable the auto-mine and worker count per base, but doing so (in a way) can disadvantage you. I don’t think you should have options that should hold inherent advantages/disadvantages. Worker Count per Base fix
As for fixing the worker count per base, I think it should be used as an observer tooltip only. The observer function of the game exists to make casters capable of analyzing the game in an effective, and engaging way. And it is textually based. You can see the number of workers, total income, workers lost etc. All of these are effective tools for casters to analyze and illustrate the advantage/disadvantage that one particular player is at.
That’s why I think the “Worker count per base” should belong here. It allows a caster to say “MarineKing has 22 workers at his main base, but only 10 at his expansion. To maximize his economy, he should have 16 at both bases.”
Why are these different from auto mine and unit select?
There are differences, again in my opinion, between these changes and the changes with Wings of Liberty. Wings of Liberty removed mindless mechanical things like telling each individual worker to mine, and have 12 army hotkeys that all needed to be moved at once. Those are sensible changes (whether or not they dilute the game too much is a different matter and not one I want to have discussed) that simply remove “mindless” mechanical things. Being able to automatically mine minerals IS mindless, but it is also the POINT of a strategy game. There isn’t anything to do at the beginning of the game, so it isn’t something to worry about. Knowing how many workers you have per base is NOT mindless, and that’s why it should not be provided. Learning to manage your economies is a skillset that must be developed. Anybody can mindlessly tell workers to mine minerals (like in BW) so this was removed. The only prerequisite to doing this is the APM necessary for it. Managing an economy properly is a mental aspect of the game that requires you to learn the optimal saturation for a base, and then using that to gain an advantage. Unlike no automine in brood war, it requires a conscious, active thought process throughout the course of the game, constrained by more than just APM.
I don’t have much of a conclusion, and I don’t want much of a TL;DR because you should read this and give your opinion. I put work into it, you should take some time to read it Thank you TeamLiquid and Battle.net for reading, and hopefully you have some nice thoughts for me in return.
I'll edit this for clarity and spacing, unfortunately "tabs" didn't follow through from word. And maybe add pictures when I'm home and can access SC2
TL;DR 1) Auto mine is an acceptable (but poor) fix to the "entering a game late" scenario. 2) Auto mine serves two functions: fixing that bug and helping new players. Tooltips would be a MUCH more useful method of helping new players with the game, and they would be much more all encompassing than simple auto mine. It's a win-win for both new players and "elitists" 3) Worker count per base interrupts with the idea of "microing" your economy. 4) Completely subjectively: I don't like WC/B because it interrupts with the feeling of the game in my opinion. WC/B is much more subject to opinion than my ideas about automine, as I see it. (Need of a tooltip that is) 5) Ultimately I would be ok with both changes going through (particularly WC/B because I still do it badly at masters) but I still dislike the change for the function it's intended to serve.
Another solution I saw: Instead of automated WC/B, just provide a numeric value after you box workers. It seems like a reasonable compromise between the two. Such a thing already exists (check out here) and something like this could probably be implemented into HOTS, for a more subtle way of giving a quick numerical number, while still requiring an action on the users part.
EDITS: Something that should be mentioned!
On September 06 2012 06:40 BlackPanther wrote: I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts.
I have heard about that. In that case, I still think Blizzard should change the idea of how to make it easier to new players. I should address that in my OP because I actually have a friend with this problem. That said, it should be something that Blizzard should be able to fix, but it's a good point. This is definitely something worth considering, but in that case you get the "problem" that newer players run into of not realizing workers need to be rallied to minerals.
My other argument to this: Every business decision is made to maximize profit in a way. Balance is changed because blizzard wants to keep people in the game, and raging is bad for staying interested. I think these decisions may be designed with the load drop for the same reason, but to also help out new players.
On September 06 2012 06:35 Alryk wrote: In WoL, yes they don't have an issue with that, but that's because you have to do it. Imagine if you were brand new and you had never rallied workers to minerals. Then you load a game and it does it for you! You build a worker, and it pops out and you don't know what to do because the last six were done automatically.
HotS automatically sets your rally point to minerals for you at the beginning of the game, just in case you didn't realize.
It's more appropriate to say "what if a new player makes an expansion like the game tells them to and doesn't understand why their workers aren't mining automatically from their new base."
Also a flaw in my research abilities. So blizzard does what I wanted them to. That's good heh. But I still think that if the objective is to help new players, something like tooltips is necessary, because then the question IS why their nexus doesn't queue to minerals after an expansion.
I don't think anyone else is really bothered by this, apart from some random dudes on the battle.net/TL forums. Boxing and sending my probes won't increase my skill, nor is the worker per base count. If you can't spend your money efficiently, no matter how facilitated the macro aspect becomes, you will still be a bad player. Let us all chill and enjoy the awesome new content.
wait so what your are proposing is still rallying workers to mineral patches, how is that different than what SC2 is already doing right now?
I agree the worker saturation per base is kind of stupid and unnecessary. I mean, how hard is it to box all your workers and count how many rows of 8's you have.
Isn't there a thread on this already? keep it to one thread dude.
You have an interesting point regarding that they'd assume new workers would auto-mine as well, but the assumption that a player wouldn't think of or know to try selecting the worker and clicking the minerals is preposterous.
Auto mine is not a problem for new players. In fact addressing what you said, auto-mine even demonstrates to the player that the starting units are workers and not something else, and that they're all supposed to mine at the start instead of build something or attack.
On September 06 2012 06:28 Inex wrote: I don't think anyone else is really bothered by this, apart from some random dudes on the battle.net/TL forums. Boxing and sending my probes won't increase my skill, nor is the worker per base count. If you can't spend your money efficiently, no matter how facilitated the macro aspect becomes, you will still be a bad player. Let us all chill and enjoy the awesome new content.
In order to be a good player in WoL you have to count your workers per base. In HotS you don´t which equalizes good and bad players. It lowers the skill ceiling as good macro is easier to achieve.
It does not seem to me like Blizzard is interested in this "eSports" thing at all, apart from the additional sales.
On September 06 2012 06:31 ref4 wrote: wait so what your are proposing is still rallying workers to mineral patches, how is that different than what SC2 is already doing right now?
I agree the worker saturation per base is kind of stupid and unnecessary. I mean, how hard is it to box all your workers and count how many rows of 8's you have.
No, I'm proposing that the nexus be automatically rallied to minerals, not the first six probes. So that new players don't have to worry about the idea of "rallying" workers. They still have to send workers to the minerals.
Yes, new players can learn to right click on the minerals. But why would they expect that's necessary if it's been done for them? In the current implementation, a new player has NO way of knowing that they need to right click on minerals - its being done for them with absolutely zero indication that "right clicking" is necessary.
In WoL, yes they don't have an issue with that, but that's because you have to do it. Imagine if you were brand new and you had never rallied workers to minerals. Then you load a game and it does it for you! You build a worker, and it pops out and you don't know what to do because the last six were done automatically.
Obviously playing the campaign would fix this, but not everybody does that.
I agree the worker saturation per base is kind of stupid and unnecessary. I mean, how hard is it to box all your workers and count how many rows of 8's you have.
So what's the problem with having it, then? It benefits new players and in no way hinders professional players. Everybody wins.
On September 06 2012 06:32 Xapti wrote: Isn't there a thread on this already? keep it to one thread dude.
You have an interesting point regarding that they'd assume new workers would auto-mine as well, but the assumption that a player wouldn't think of or know to try selecting the worker and clicking the minerals is preposterous.
Auto mine is not a problem for new players. In fact addressing what you said, auto-mine even demonstrates to the player that the starting units are workers and not something else, and that they're all supposed to mine at the start instead of build something or attack.
No. There isn't. There's a thread on how auto mine reduces the skill of SC2. MY thread involves auto mine, but it acknowledges what blizzard is trying to do, explaining why I disagree with their logic, and suggesting an alternative.
It's like two separate discussions on the display in an iphone and the operating system of iOS imo. Same "iphone" (core topic) completely different subject.
I agree the worker saturation per base is kind of stupid and unnecessary. I mean, how hard is it to box all your workers and count how many rows of 8's you have.
So what's the problem with having it, then? It benefits new players and in no way hinders professional players. Everybody wins.
I think the problem with it is there is an advantage to having it enabled. Also, it's a required skillset that requires active thinking to learn, kind of like microing an army, you're "microing" your economy. You can 1-a with an army the same way that you can just mass build workers, but the "micro" comes in at splitting, or properly splitting your workers to maximize economy. That said, my argument is weakest and most susceptible to an opinion switch in the worker count idea, but I still don't like how it's implemented.
I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts.
I think people are forgetting other implications of this change; sometimes players join the game at slightly different times because of load speed differences and this nullifies the difference.
On September 06 2012 06:40 BlackPanther wrote: I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts.
I have heard about that. In that case, I still think Blizzard should change the idea of how to make it easier to new players. I should address that in my OP because I actually have a friend with this problem. That said, it should be something that Blizzard should be able to fix, but it's a good point.
On September 06 2012 06:35 Alryk wrote: In WoL, yes they don't have an issue with that, but that's because you have to do it. Imagine if you were brand new and you had never rallied workers to minerals. Then you load a game and it does it for you! You build a worker, and it pops out and you don't know what to do because the last six were done automatically.
HotS automatically sets your rally point to minerals for you at the beginning of the game, just in case you didn't realize.
It's more appropriate to say "what if a new player makes an expansion like the game tells them to and doesn't understand why their workers aren't mining automatically from their new base."
Catchy title, yet you drag out your opinions over long paragraphs saying that there is a flaw and something is wrong with the ideas that Blizzard have implemented but in the solution you say that there is nothing wrong with it. What was the point of writing such a big write up for 2 very small things ? As a player of the HOTS beta don't you have any valuable things to discuss.
On September 06 2012 06:35 Alryk wrote: In WoL, yes they don't have an issue with that, but that's because you have to do it. Imagine if you were brand new and you had never rallied workers to minerals. Then you load a game and it does it for you! You build a worker, and it pops out and you don't know what to do because the last six were done automatically.
HotS automatically sets your rally point to minerals for you at the beginning of the game, just in case you didn't realize.
It's more appropriate to say "what if a new player makes an expansion like the game tells them to and doesn't understand why their workers aren't mining automatically from their new base."
Also a flaw in my research abilities. So blizzard does what I wanted them to. That's good heh. But I still think that if the objective is to help new players, something like tooltips is necessary, because then the question IS why their nexus doesn't queue to minerals after an expansion.
On September 06 2012 06:44 scsequeL wrote: Catchy title, yet you drag out your opinions over long paragraphs saying that there is a flaw and something is wrong with the ideas that Blizzard have implemented but in the solution you say that there is nothing wrong with it. What was the point of writing such a big write up for 2 very small things ? As a player of the HOTS beta don't you have any valuable things to discuss.
What? I didn't say there was "nothing wrong with it" I said it was implemented incorrectly. There's a difference.
And how do I not have valuable things to discuss? O.o
The idea behind a relatively (and hopefully) sensible post was for you to respond to it relatively sensibly. If you think I have nothing of value, please contribute something of value. And in the least sarcastic way I can, please illustrate where I said there was nothing wrong with it, because that wasn't my intention and I easily could have lost my train of thought while typing this.
Does automine send your workers to mine without doing any input required from you? Because this is very useful in teamgames where someone goes AFK only to return 5 minutes later with no money - at least now they'll be able to contribute a little bit...
If splitting wouldn't do anything I'd highly agree. Also keep in mind someone from blizz said most of these things are for ums and are probably not gonna stay in 1 v 1 in the final.
On September 06 2012 06:31 ref4 wrote: wait so what your are proposing is still rallying workers to mineral patches, how is that different than what SC2 is already doing right now?
I agree the worker saturation per base is kind of stupid and unnecessary. I mean, how hard is it to box all your workers and count how many rows of 8's you have.
Not hard at all. I'm shocked people are whining about something as inconsequential as this so hard.
So we attract more casual players into the game and they start watching? What's the big deal?
This doesn't change anything for anyone except for bronzies. People need to chill.
I actually had a friend who had bought Starcraft but given up promptly. Once, he saw me playing and said "wow, you get way more workers than I did... How many are you supposed to have?" If this had already been in play, maybe he would be with us today? And maybe we'd have an even bigger player base? Veterans need to stop being so snooty.
On September 06 2012 06:50 Lorch wrote: If splitting wouldn't do anything I'd highly agree. Also keep in mind someone from blizz said most of these things are for ums and are probably not gonna stay in 1 v 1 in the final.
Yeah. I'm not raging or anything, and I'm actually assuming that something like this might easily not make it to final, but it's worth addressing now on B.Net when you have the least amount of traffic (highest amount for blizzard to see it)
Making the interface worse, and hiding information from the player, is a silly way to add 'skill' or 'depth' to a game. These are mindless mechanical tasks and I'd rather players be focusing on interesting strategic and tactical options.
If the skill ceiling to the game is so shallow that you run into by fixing some trivial interface stuff, the solution is to MAKE THE GAME DEEPER.
Unit formations effecting combat effectiveness and movement like in Kohan, cover and suppression systems like in Company of Heroes, detailed physics like in Men of War. Rise of Nations had national borders with associated economic and combat attrition/supply effects. Units with line of sight considerations both for targeting and for what they or the player can see (hide units behind other units or map objects). Range playing in combat effects directly rather than being a binary in-range or not. Unit orientation mattering more (a turret takes time to swivel around to aim at a target behind it). Tanks also have weak armor on the back, etc. Analog movement speeds rather than just moving or not (set with a mouse flick to match the speed?). Why aren't projectiles and units and other game objects 'real physics objects' in Starcraft 2 -- make them into frisbees! Just generally -- increases the granularity of the simulation. More 'spellcaster' units does it too of course but it's far from the only way.
Tried the new Company of Heroes at Pax -- the new line of sight and fog of war is crazy detailed. Really interesting stuff.
On September 06 2012 06:31 ref4 wrote: wait so what your are proposing is still rallying workers to mineral patches, how is that different than what SC2 is already doing right now?
I agree the worker saturation per base is kind of stupid and unnecessary. I mean, how hard is it to box all your workers and count how many rows of 8's you have.
Not hard at all. I'm shocked people are whining about something as inconsequential as this so hard.
So we attract more casual players into the game and they start watching? What's the big deal?
This doesn't change anything for anyone except for bronzies. People need to chill.
I actually had a friend who had bought Starcraft but given up promptly. Once, he saw me playing and said "wow, you get way more workers than I did... How many are you supposed to have?" If this had already been in play, maybe he would be with us today? And maybe we'd have an even bigger player base? Veterans need to stop being so snooty.
You seem to have missed my point if you are directing this at me as well. My argument is the "starting rally" option implemented can actually confuse new players because they don't understand why their units are auto-mining already. The fact that it has auto rally too addresses my point already, but it doesn't explain how to properly expand or something. That's why tooltips are a better choice than what we have.
I'm actually advocating a way of "dumbing down" the game, but without affecting anybody above gold level.
Any respectable tournament won't allow these options to be selected so it'll still be necessary to practice. The difference isn't as huge as people want it to be.
Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
On September 06 2012 06:40 BlackPanther wrote: I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts.
This. This is sooo much more important than "A new player won't realize that he has to rally his workers to the minerals once he build a new base". I mean, seriously, 90% of new players will actually realize this and the other 10% will make the mistake ONCE and learn afterwards with trial and error.
Having an unfair random component inside the game just to make sure new players learn their worker rallying with their first base instead of their second is just dumb.
Also, having a peer to peer based RTS start at EXACTLY the same time for all players is really difficult, so i am glad blizzard came up with a simple solution.
On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
Couldn't agree more. I am glad that there are still people on this forum with common sense.
Oversaturation is currently happening all up to upper master levels. It's currently a SKILL to count workers fast+select the appropriate amount to send to an un-saturated base. There is a distinction between a player who excels at this and a player who does not.
I personally am bad at re-locating workers around(am low masters) and in HotS I won't have to improve upon this part of the game, I'll just check the number and be happy about it. "yay"
Autosplit - sure it's neglible if it's in but let's put in mineral stacking because hey why not? it's silly to mineral-stack, this is just brainless I tell you, let's add AUTO - mineral stacking so we can focus on the big battles n shit....
On September 06 2012 06:40 BlackPanther wrote: I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts.
This. This is sooo much more important than "A new player won't realize that he has to rally his workers to the minerals once he build a new base". I mean, seriously, 90% of new players will actually realize this and the other 10% will make the mistake ONCE and learn afterwards with trial and error.
Having an unfair random component inside the game just to make sure new players learn their worker rallying with their first base instead of their second is just dumb.
Also, having a peer to peer based RTS start at EXACTLY the same time for all players is really difficult, so i am glad blizzard came up with a simple solution.
How many bronze friends do you have? I have friends who consistently are slow in rallying probes to minerals etc. Then they do it with their expansions. They KNOW they are supposed to but most players flat out don't remember it. It will be even worse if a player has zero indication it's supposed to happen. At least now, they KNOW they're supposed to, they just forget. It's not a mistake you make "once" for them, it's the same thing as not being supply blocked. It's still a mistake you can make and one that you need to remember to do. Being supply blocked is easier because the game tells you "make more pylons" having workers rallied for you automatically will have no indication that it's possible to actually rally workers. That means a new player will have no way of knowing how to do it, which is why I think we need tooltips.
Also, his comment was a relevant one that I forgot about, and I already added it into my OP.
On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
Yes that's true, and I think that's one of the reasons that it could stay. My only real disagreement with it is it doesn't really fit well with how the rest of the SC2 information is presented.
On September 06 2012 06:58 Grummler wrote: Auto rally: + Show Spoiler +
On September 06 2012 06:40 BlackPanther wrote: I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts.
This. This is sooo much more important than "A new player won't realize that he has to rally his workers to the minerals once he build a new base". I mean, seriously, 90% of new players will actually realize this and the other 10% will make the mistake ONCE and learn afterwards with trial and error.
Having an unfair random component inside the game just to make sure new players learn their worker rallying with their first base instead of their second is just dumb.
Also, having a peer to peer based RTS start at EXACTLY the same time for all players is really difficult, so i am glad blizzard came up with a simple solution.
On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
Couldn't agree more. I am glad that there are still people on this forum with common sense.
You seem like you're including these as some form of criticism, except I already acknowledged both.
If blizzard's idea with automine is ONLY to help people who load late, then sure the OP is useless. But every business decision is made to increase profit - so I imagine that decisions like these also have some component of improving the game for new players to it.
On September 06 2012 06:50 Lorch wrote: If splitting wouldn't do anything I'd highly agree. Also keep in mind someone from blizz said most of these things are for ums and are probably not gonna stay in 1 v 1 in the final.
i'm just curious, do you have a source for this? didn't lurk too much regarding HOTS.
I rather see these kind of changes to help low league players improve than blizzard implementing extra balance changes because a certain race might be underperforming in low leagues , which directly affects high level play as well.Not to mention one of the changes is actually a "bug" fix.
On September 06 2012 06:58 Grummler wrote: Auto rally: + Show Spoiler +
On September 06 2012 06:40 BlackPanther wrote: I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts.
This. This is sooo much more important than "A new player won't realize that he has to rally his workers to the minerals once he build a new base". I mean, seriously, 90% of new players will actually realize this and the other 10% will make the mistake ONCE and learn afterwards with trial and error.
Having an unfair random component inside the game just to make sure new players learn their worker rallying with their first base instead of their second is just dumb.
Also, having a peer to peer based RTS start at EXACTLY the same time for all players is really difficult, so i am glad blizzard came up with a simple solution.
On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
Couldn't agree more. I am glad that there are still people on this forum with common sense.
if we look at qxc or any pro recent vods we'll find that they don't count as much as we think...
On September 06 2012 07:05 Rictusz wrote: I rather see these kind of changes to help low league players improve than blizzard implementing extra balance changes because a certain race might be underperforming in low leagues , which directly affects high level play as well.Not to mention one of the changes is actually a "bug" fix.
This is my point... I acknowledge that, but my point is its being done wrong.
It's better to help players improve by adding tooltips, not a hidden function that they aren't aware of.
On September 06 2012 07:05 Rictusz wrote: I rather see these kind of changes to help low league players improve than blizzard implementing extra balance changes because a certain race might be underperforming in low leagues , which directly affects high level play as well.Not to mention one of the changes is actually a "bug" fix.
This is my point... I acknowledge that, but my point id its being done wrong.
I don't really understand this argument because when a new player starts playing SC2 they go through the tutorial that explains how workers and rally points work. Most new players don't just start laddering and they'll face much worse problems than figuring out they need to set rally points if they start laddering without going through the tutorial.
On September 06 2012 07:09 RonNation wrote: I don't really understand this argument because when a new player starts playing SC2 they go through the tutorial that explains how workers and rally points work. Most new players don't just start laddering and they'll face much worse problems than figuring out they need to set rally points if they start laddering without going through the tutorial.
I acknowledged that at some point, (Idt it's in my OP though) I know going through the campaign teaches you the basics, but I have a lot of friends actually (and I can't be the only one) who has friends who tried to jump straight into multiplayer.
And I have friends who played the campaign but are still in bronze. Playing the campaign doesn't necessarily mean you understand all the mechanics inside the game.
Why are new players playing heart of the swarm beta? I dont see how that argument is relevant. If a developer wants to make a game more accommodating to new players then if can do what valve did with counter strike. In that they create a casual and a competitive ladder. This allows new players to not get crushed my better players and makes the game more forgiving.
The worker count is really bad imo, it's a skill that you should learn and now it's just given. Checking often is a mechanic. Auto send to mine isn't that bad but, it's Blizzard saying they want more casual. Casual = bad, always.
I think this blog post is spot on in that none of these changes are explicitly BAD, but the reasons I have issues with them are:
1) If it is not obvious that workers need to be sent to mine, Blizzard needs to create better tutorials for new players rather than change the game.
2) Even if a mundane choice, sending all of your workers to mine is a choice. 99% of the time most players will do exactly this. But 1% of the time they won't, and if the metagame worked out differently, maybe sending all six workers to mine WOULDN'T be the standard. Yes, you could grab one worker and send it out to proxy, but it feels like it is one less choice being made. This is also why although useful, I am not sure how I feel about the worker counts. IIRC, it was not Blizzard that told everyone that 24 workers per mining base is optimal. It was the community that realized this through testing, and even then 16 was OPTIMAL, 24 was pretty much the max, but even the 25th and 26th workers added a (tiny) amount of additionally mined resources [iirc].
3) Even if you could turn off sending all of your workers to mine, because every player clicks their CC/Nexus/Hatchery to build their first worker, then split their workers, it will not be as fast as having the workers automatically start moving to the minerals, even if they're split better for the manual player. This is why some comments read "doesn't it seem like I have more money in the early game?". It's because you do.
If they wish to convey these things to new players, I think it's fine to say how many workers are mining minerals/vespene at a given base when clicking on the vespene geyser/command center. Adding it as a fraction is unneeded, maybe even SLIGHTLY misleading and I would much rather Blizzard work on incorporating their own tutorials or even community-based tutorials into their game rather than adding redundant things such as this.
So in a game where we have all of our information “outside the game” displayed in a graphical way, we now have information being displayed to us in a textual way. There isn’t anything necessarily wrong with this, and this is where my opinion is much less logical/rational and more a matter of consistency, but I believe that the “Worker count per base” idea interferes with the consistency of the game and just does not fit into the general flow of Starcraft II. The information is just projected incorrectly.
I think on the issue of worker counts per base, its much more important because the number of workers you have matters a lot more than your army. Because in the latter case...no one really needs to count an "exact" number of roaches or marines or stalkers that they need in their army. They just eyeball something that looks appropriate or go for a certain timing attack, trying to squeeze out as many units as possible by the time their upgrades are ready.
Obviously it matters a lot more for economy because a precise number of workers creates the most efficient economy, and having a number that is easy to see makes it a lot easier for players to accomplish this than eyeballing the number of workers they have or trying to do a good box and counting the complete complete rows and the deciding how much to add in combination with any incomplete rows.
So really when you compare the tremendous advantage in accessibility with the disadvantage of not maintaining "consistency", I think its clear that Blizzard's change is a good one. Also the game clearly uses numbers when its appropriate, whether its hit points, attack speed/damage, workers per vespene geyser, move speed, hot keys...Blizzard should be trying to make the game as good as possible, not forcing consistency where it doesn't make sense.
But I think more people are disappointed by the change because they feel it "dumbs down" the game. But I don't agree with this view. You could make a lot of things in the game require a painful, unnecessary amount of work in order to increase the skill level required to play. I mean you could disallow rallying entirely and force people to move each individual unit when it spawns, or prevent people from boxing more than 6 units at a time or assigning more than that number to a hotkey. But that's a really bad way to make the game difficult, and would be an example of really lazy design to make the game "challenging".
The kind of difficulty viewers want to see, and (I would think) that players would want to practise, is the meaningful challenges like microing and mulitasking an army, whether its multi-pronged aggression, or scouting/harassing while macroing up back at your home base. These are the challenges that matter...and for this reason, in the broader scheme of things, there is still going to be a tremendous gap between bronze and masters players regardless of whether this change goes through, so I really don't think this is some serious effort by Blizzard to appeal to casual gamers. Its simply a reasonable change that makes the game less tedious and focuses people's APM on the stuff that's actually important.
Edit: Oh man...why are my posts always so long -.-. Oh well I'll keep working on that
On September 06 2012 06:47 Akhee wrote: good players will constantly check workers in every base and setting rallies to where it should have a good saturation now any scrub can do that to the same level
putting worker per base to observers only would be awesome, but NOT in the game
They could fix the "laggy start" problem together with the loading screen -> game transition some people have complained about in the past (being unsure about when the loading screen will finish and just being dumped into the game) by simply adding a very short countdown when both players load. A 3..2..1 and you can control your units.
I don't get lag at the beginning of a match, why should my game be negatively altered for those that do?
wow a second thread for this non issue. But i guess alot of people are afraid, that they could fall into casual land due to this. Don't worry if you have to fear casuals catching up on you, you are already one of them. The one in the shelter already infected, knowing it, but trying to distract the others from just ending his misery.
Anyway as for the OP, after reading it i have a really different opinion on what a rts is, so a discussion would end nowhere most likely. But i have no issues with these changes, especially since you can turn the worker split off (would have had a problem with it otherwise). Its helpful for laggers in the beginning, its less good then doing it yourself, if you know what you are doing. And i really dislike the argument of the reward being to small for doing something, that is popping up every now and then for sc2, when people have the need to express something is getting to easy. So if you know how to properly split workers and count them, this won't affect you a tiny bit. The only argument that stays at the end is: "but now my cheese isn't super effective anymore, because my mining at the beginning isn't that much ahead."
As for casuals being hurt by this. If they would be bothered by such fine tuning, they wouldn't be called casuals. As for Noobs being hurt by this, no they will find help on how to do it right if they really want to. About noobs not finding out that rally points exist, well then they are blind x3. You will find out what i mean once you are ingame ... hopefully.
PS: getting resources is the heart of an eco sim. (though rts games without atleast a bit of a macro part are boring, but its not needed)
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
On September 06 2012 06:47 Akhee wrote: good players will constantly check workers in every base and setting rallies to where it should have a good saturation now any scrub can do that to the same level
putting worker per base to observers only would be awesome, but NOT in the game
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
I think that people who don't have the lag problem in the beginning of the game don't fully appreciate how bad it can be. I doubt that this feature was added to make the game more newbie friendly. As many have mentioned, it is probably not as good as doing it yourself. And for people with good connections, they can turn it off and enjoy splitting their workers at the beginning of the game.
actiblizzion making this game easier for the casuals yet again..
part of sc is that you influenced every factor of this game even if it's minute difference the fact that you sent your workers to begin mining influences the game. i like being able to say that I won the game. that I started mining and that I started my barracks, that I started marine production, etc.
automation and "casualization" of games is a slippery slope and blizzard has been on it for a while now. if we don't fight for the fundamentals of starcraft theywill soon be gone.
blizzard should know by now: casuals are not consistent. people who play this game competitively are. making things easier for casuals (while it makes them more money in the short term) cheapens the time and effort competitive players have taken to become good at this game. in the long run, these competitive players will leave if blizzard continues to insult their hard work by installing retard-friendly functionality
at this point the player base is used to our level of automation. keep it that way and add units thta will increase the skill cap. thats ALL they need to do with this expansion, but i'm seeing none of that. just more amoving units so your build order can win if you follow it right
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
It takes nothing away. NOTHING. Selecting workers and clicking on minerals is not a skill. Splitting them, maybe, but you can still do that. And if somehow it automatically doing that for you fucks you up, you can turn it off.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
It takes nothing away. NOTHING. Selecting workers and clicking on minerals is not a skill. Splitting them, maybe, but you can still do that. And if somehow it automatically doing that for you fucks you up, you can turn it off.
Nothing is lost.
automining is the fact you can rally your workers being built on your cc directly to your mining, not the autosplitting thing.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
It takes nothing away. NOTHING. Selecting workers and clicking on minerals is not a skill. Splitting them, maybe, but you can still do that. And if somehow it automatically doing that for you fucks you up, you can turn it off.
Nothing is lost.
automining is the fact you can rally your workers being built on your cc directly to your mining, not the autosplitting thing.
My bad, but even then, I don't consider that a skill. Clicking on a worker and a mineral patch isn't a big thing. Keeping up on the production is, and even then it's hardly an issue.
Hello all, If this is such an issue, then posting on TL for discussion purpose is kinda silly. Instead it will be much more productive if YOU PROVIDED FEEDBACK TO BLIZZARD.
Please take the time to compile a nicely written list of all your grievances. Write well thought out reasons supporting each and send them to blizzard! If you are really desperate, use an online signature gathering tool to show Blizz the amount of people supporting your cause!
I dont see a problem with automine at all. And if it makes the game a little easier for new people to understand, why not let them play? There are a lot of people who are scared away from sc2 because of how "complicated" the game is. Making some of the basic things, that everyone knows how to do anyway, a little easier for new people to understand is just fine. I want sc2 to grow, not get smaller.
On September 06 2012 08:28 LgNKami wrote: I dont see a problem with automine at all. And if it makes the game a little easier for new people to understand, why not let them play? There are a lot of people who are scared away from sc2 because of how "complicated" the game is. Making some of the basic things, that everyone knows how to do anyway, a little easier for new people to understand is just fine. I want sc2 to grow, not get smaller.
okay. how do you feel about units like the siegetank being virtually replaced by the warhound? siege tanks have to focus fire to be useful many times vs good players, warhound will auto target units it gets a damage bonus against
how do you feel about idle army key (similar to idle worker, except it selects all army)? shouldn't players be rewarded for hotkeying all their units? wasn't part of this "design idea" to break apart the deathball? strange and hypocritical to add a button like this
how do you feel about the cc auto rallying to your minerals? were the 17 seconds in between starting worker 1 and 2 not enough time to do that?
i just dont undersstand the rationale for these changes other than "we can make more money if more people play. if we make things easier, more people will play"
Simple solution: show stuff like how many workers you have mining in the campaign and single player, and not in multiplayer. New players can learn and the game isn't dumbed down for everyone else.
I don't see the problem with that. It's something everybody does at the beginning of the game, yeah pros might do it better and gain fractions of a second...
From a pure game design point of vue, it make sens to automatize the split. You don't see virtual poker games where you have to deal the cards yourself... There are more important mechanics to focus on (production and micro... yeah a-click pseudo-goliath!!)
Plus it solve the game begining lags.
About the learning aspect... the campaign & tutorials are there for a reason. If you never played a FPS game, you maybe don't know the controls, etc... same here.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
Are you comparing auto-rally to automining at the beginning of the match so people with lag doesn't lose 4-5 secs per match ?
If you just wanted to go full BW hipster, atleast do it right, not saying nonsense.
Let the crucifiction begin - I like the fact that I can see my workers on minerals - workers you need on minerals.
These days we just select all workers on minerals and count to see if there are more/less than what we need. If they are, we remove/add as needed. Is it so bad that this manual, tedious task is automated? I don't think so, the worst that could happen is a bronze league player would know how many workers he needs per mineral patch.
Overall, I like that change.
Sending your workers and building one at the start - not so much.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
Are you comparing auto-rally to automining at the beginning of the match so people with lag doesn't lose 4-5 secs per match ?
If you just wanted to go full BW hipster, atleast do it right, not saying nonsense.
there are community inspired solutions to this problem, posted on blizzards website in highly rated threads including: -Fixing the broken code that causes this in the first place (top level machines sometimes having delay at game start. completely unacceptable) -Count down timer after map and game have loaded. 3 - 2 -1 now both players are able to control stuff at the same time
On September 06 2012 07:01 Andr3 wrote: Oversaturation is currently happening all up to upper master levels. It's currently a SKILL to count workers fast+select the appropriate amount to send to an un-saturated base. There is a distinction between a player who excels at this and a player who does not.
This guy gets it. Saturation awareness is an important skill in solid macro. Long before any of this was presented in HotS I was always secretly proud of how well I could optimumly saturate bases without even needing to check the number of workers mining. I was able to see/feel if I was over, under or spot on because of the many games I had played. My practice was validated by gaining a skill that manifests subconsciously.
Displaying it numerically reduces that skill to non-existence. Rather than needing to box check (a action/time investment) or trust one's implicit awareness of saturation (a reward of practice, potentially subject to error) I am handed the information without any effirt on my part.
I personally don't see the need. A quick search and a few minutes reading are all you need to learn about saturation. Once you've got that knowledge it is yours to implenment and perfect. Changing something like this will help lower skilled players, which is to be encouraged, but it also shows no consideration to the higher skilled players whom have likely invested far greater levels of practice and dedication to acquiring their skillset. Every change must strike a comfortable balance where softening mechanics doesn't encroach on those who have worked on crystalising the mechanics in question.
In short, I don't think the reasons are sufficient for the change. Also in a game which has an almost entirely graphical interface, it sticks out like a sore thumb.
While auto-mine is kinda meh, it serves a legitimate purpose.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
Are you comparing auto-rally to automining at the beginning of the match so people with lag doesn't lose 4-5 secs per match ?
If you just wanted to go full BW hipster, atleast do it right, not saying nonsense.
read the guy I quoted. i doubt you'll do it dear hater.
I think I'm going to have to take a break from reading forums for a while to avoid threads discussing this where hundreds of people come out and say "they're making the game easier, my passion is being drained!!!"
These changes are so freaking minor and people are jumping on them like they're huge.
The sending workers to mine at the beginning thing is a great option for people who lag at the start. It lets them start on more equal footing. Pros shouldn't be using it in theory because splitting allows you more control as to where workers end up so they can be put on closer mineral patches.
As for the worker counter: maybe it should be spectator only, but it's personal preference, really... which is why it's an option. The skill really isn't in counting the workers, it's in having the correct amount at each base, which isn't much skill anyway.
And it's a beta, so posting stuff like this OP in blizzard's forums might be more use. There's scope for change.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
Are you comparing auto-rally to automining at the beginning of the match so people with lag doesn't lose 4-5 secs per match ?
If you just wanted to go full BW hipster, atleast do it right, not saying nonsense.
there are community inspired solutions to this problem, posted on blizzards website in highly rated threads including: -Fixing the broken code that causes this in the first place (top level machines sometimes having delay at game start. completely unacceptable) -Count down timer after map and game have loaded. 3 - 2 -1 now both players are able to control stuff at the same time
This also fixes it and makes nothing to harm your skillful experience. What's the problem then ?
Can't really I am surprised.... Blizzard has developed a huge trend over the last year or two to dumb down their games as much as possible in order to appeal to a larger audience... I am guessing part of this has to do with them seeing the success of Activision's Skylanders.
If Blizzard can tap into that younger audience, then their profits will skyrocket.... and it seems they are willing to sacrifice their older, loyal customers who enjoy games taking skill.
I am rank 18 masters NA and I think this is a wonderful idea, because I get in game 5 seconds AFTER the game actually starts, which is kinda a big deal since everything snowballs. So this change could in a way be for balance. There is another way to stop that though, which is to just add a 10 second countdown till game starts.
EDIT: in terms of blizzard "dumbing down" the game, i think thats BS. If you look at HOTS you can see a lot more emphasis on skill based units, such as the viper, oracle tempest, etc... which are used ALL game long, instead of doing a 2 second split, which really doesn't require that much skill.
My problem with the worker counter thingymabob is that it's part of the game to keep track of how many workers you have and to make sure you're mining efficiently. As a player it's part of your "job" to analyse your macro situation and see to it that your workers aren't misplaced or being stupid, or that your gases have 3 guys on them. The player who does a better job of those things has a macro advantage, obviously. So the way I see it this feature is taking away an advantage from the better player.
So if, for example, I play a ZvZ where we macro up to 3 base and mass Roaches til one of us wins and I spread my workers out more efficiently across my bases throughout the whole game while making sure I have the exact right amount then I have a clear advantage and my macro is better. If me and my opponent were told our worker counts then half the job is done for him and I get fucked over. I'm the player with better macro, but he's been helped and now is on par with me not because he improved, but because the game helped him. I don't like that.
I would be fine if Blizzard added some tooltip thing that tells you how many workers you need to mine efficiently in your first games, or maybe a tutorial thing...
Sooooooo much ado about nothing. Sending your workers to mine in the immediately makes the game 0.0000000001 % easier. Seeing the numbers over the hatch obviates the need to box your workers to see how many are on a base.
The only argument against these items that makes sense is the "slippery slope" one--every change that dumbs down the game will lead to further changes to dumb down the game.
It's ok to dislike the change or to like it. But how can you justify writing that essay about THIS change? You could have played so many ladder games in that time :D
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
Are you comparing auto-rally to automining at the beginning of the match so people with lag doesn't lose 4-5 secs per match ?
If you just wanted to go full BW hipster, atleast do it right, not saying nonsense.
read the guy I quoted. i doubt you'll do it dear hater.
I read him, how else do you think i know you are full bananas about your experience on BW or RTS in general?. If you had any real experience you would already know automining at the start takes away nothing. Auto-rally was different and did lower the skill ceiling required to control your workers, but isn't related to the topic, and anyways, it free those APM to other things, so while controlling workers is less "skillfull" on sc2 than in BW, you can use that skill on other departments.
Btw, i am not a hater, today i am at my best mood laughing about clueless people who just cry about pointless stuff because they want to be part of the BW leet they never were.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
Are you comparing auto-rally to automining at the beginning of the match so people with lag doesn't lose 4-5 secs per match ?
If you just wanted to go full BW hipster, atleast do it right, not saying nonsense.
read the guy I quoted. i doubt you'll do it dear hater.
I read him, how else do you think i know you are full bananas about your experience on BW or RTS in general?. If you had any real experience you would already know automining at the start takes away nothing. Auto-rally was different and did lower the skill ceiling required to control your workers, but isn't related to the topic, and freeing those APM
Btw, i am not a hater, today i am at my best mood laughing about clueless people who just cry about pointless stuff because they want to be part of the BW leet they never were.
you confuse terms, auto-mining refers to the fact your workers are directly rallied on your minerals once they're produced.
On September 06 2012 06:33 Aunvilgod wrote: ave to count your workers per base. In HotS you don´t which equalizes good and bad players. It lowers the skill ceiling as good macro is easier to achieve.
This is a flawed understanding of what "ceiling" means. None of these changes even remotely affect the skill ceiling.
This is pathetic. We already accepted a ridiculously and unnecessarily simple game [mechanically and strategically] in the form of sc2, and now they are doing there darnedest to remove ANY physical action?
Who could possibly be confused that your drones are meant to mine the minerals? Who could possibly argue that its impossible to know how many drones should be at your base? Who the hell pulled out their hair because they had to make educated guesses on whether certain tech was seen with a scan was placed?
I think they should have AI differences between each league. Like at plat there's no automine, you need to split your drones at the start. At masters you don't have autocast anymore. At GM you don't have unit clumping, and the AI is like in brood war.
The maps can also change based on your ladder league, like for plat to bronze there are rocks, but for higher leagues there aren't any, and there are more chokes/cliffs, etc...
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
Are you comparing auto-rally to automining at the beginning of the match so people with lag doesn't lose 4-5 secs per match ?
If you just wanted to go full BW hipster, atleast do it right, not saying nonsense.
read the guy I quoted. i doubt you'll do it dear hater.
I read him, how else do you think i know you are full bananas about your experience on BW or RTS in general?. If you had any real experience you would already know automining at the start takes away nothing. Auto-rally was different and did lower the skill ceiling required to control your workers, but isn't related to the topic, and freeing those APM
Btw, i am not a hater, today i am at my best mood laughing about clueless people who just cry about pointless stuff because they want to be part of the BW leet they never were.
you confuse terms, auto-mining refers to the fact your workers are directly rallied on your minerals once they're produced.
Do i need to write them "your way" so you can understand the difference between autorally workers on mineral lines, to automining from the start ? Of course, now we are going to argue semantics. I really didn't see that one coming.
I like automine fixing the loading into the game late for no reason problem, but I would rather just have something like a 10 second count down timer at the start of the game before you can select any units to make up for loading bugs.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
Are you comparing auto-rally to automining at the beginning of the match so people with lag doesn't lose 4-5 secs per match ?
If you just wanted to go full BW hipster, atleast do it right, not saying nonsense.
read the guy I quoted. i doubt you'll do it dear hater.
I read him, how else do you think i know you are full bananas about your experience on BW or RTS in general?. If you had any real experience you would already know automining at the start takes away nothing. Auto-rally was different and did lower the skill ceiling required to control your workers, but isn't related to the topic, and freeing those APM
Btw, i am not a hater, today i am at my best mood laughing about clueless people who just cry about pointless stuff because they want to be part of the BW leet they never were.
you confuse terms, auto-mining refers to the fact your workers are directly rallied on your minerals once they're produced.
Do i need to write them "your way" so you can understand the difference between autorally workers on mineral lines, to automining from the start ? Of course, now we are going to argue semantics. I really didn't see that one coming.
if you followed a bit sc2 beta you'd know what it means.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing.
someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it.
Are you comparing auto-rally to automining at the beginning of the match so people with lag doesn't lose 4-5 secs per match ?
If you just wanted to go full BW hipster, atleast do it right, not saying nonsense.
read the guy I quoted. i doubt you'll do it dear hater.
I read him, how else do you think i know you are full bananas about your experience on BW or RTS in general?. If you had any real experience you would already know automining at the start takes away nothing. Auto-rally was different and did lower the skill ceiling required to control your workers, but isn't related to the topic, and freeing those APM
Btw, i am not a hater, today i am at my best mood laughing about clueless people who just cry about pointless stuff because they want to be part of the BW leet they never were.
you confuse terms, auto-mining refers to the fact your workers are directly rallied on your minerals once they're produced.
Do i need to write them "your way" so you can understand the difference between autorally workers on mineral lines, to automining from the start ? Of course, now we are going to argue semantics. I really didn't see that one coming.
if you followed a bit sc2 beta you'd know what it means.
Didn't I just wrote them down for you ? And now we play the sc2 beta hipster game. You are full of surprises, aren't you ?
On September 06 2012 08:57 Butterednuts wrote: You really are making a mountain out of a molehill. Stop it.
These changes are so minute that it hardly bears a paragraph talking about it.
i think it's this attitude/apathy that will lead to the eventual over-automation of SC2 and the death of it as an esport. this game came out and it was called "easy" by the bw players and for good reason.. it is.
lets fight for the small things before they turn into big things
edit: i think that blizzard will continue to make this game easier in an effort to get more customers. if you look at any recent blizzard game (post activision) you will see that this is a pattern. the sc community is special though, and i think we can be and should be an exception to this.
Would just like to thank OP for his post, a lot of good points made. I especially agree with the idea of not having floating text on your nexus/extractors, I also found this inconsistent with the current feel of the game, and it does take away a bit of the immersion for me.
I think the main idea Blizzard could learn from this is that new players should be shown how to play the game rather than having their hand held while playing it. It's strange because they did take this approach with the simplified command card, yet seem to have completely ignored it when thinking of how to get players to produce and rally workers, saturate their base and select all their units.
I think it is important when talking about "casual players" to recognize two things. First, recognize the difference between "casual" and "new." These changes are most likely geared toward "new" players, so they don't start their first game and wonder what the heck they are supposed to be doing with these 6 units they have, or fail to realize that only 3 workers can mine a single mineral patch. The second thing to recognize is that every player starts out as a "new" player, not just the "casuals" that they seem to get lumped together with. The easier the transition into the new game, the more likely they stick and therefore the larger the player base. This is a GOOD thing for the SC2 community, so we should all be for features that make that initial transition easier.
Also, people need to stop being so elitist. Will this change help our bronze leaguers out there? I'm sure it will. Is that a bad thing? Fuck no it's not. The more our current bronze leaguers can focus on actual gameplay and mechanics, the more likely they will start to move up the ladder, elevating the ladder as a whole.
If you think these changes will have any appreciable impact on the true skillcap of SC2 at the pro level, you are simply wrong.
On September 06 2012 08:28 LgNKami wrote: I dont see a problem with automine at all. And if it makes the game a little easier for new people to understand, why not let them play? There are a lot of people who are scared away from sc2 because of how "complicated" the game is. Making some of the basic things, that everyone knows how to do anyway, a little easier for new people to understand is just fine. I want sc2 to grow, not get smaller.
I feel like some people are missing the point. The point is NOT that I dislike auto mine. I am recognizing that blizzard might be trying to make it easier for casuals and suggesting why I think that their implementation hurts rather than helps new players.
Just got back from class will address points slowly
On September 06 2012 06:28 Inex wrote: I don't think anyone else is really bothered by this, apart from some random dudes on the battle.net/TL forums. Boxing and sending my probes won't increase my skill, nor is the worker per base count. If you can't spend your money efficiently, no matter how facilitated the macro aspect becomes, you will still be a bad player. Let us all chill and enjoy the awesome new content.
Incorrect. True, neither will increase your skill. However, if you've ever seen a low level player being coached by a pro, you know they have trouble managing the correct number of workers per base. That's part of the game.
Here's my hyperbolic analogy: If you're going to send my workers to mine for me, and you build them for me too? Oh, and could you make some units too and send them over to my opponents base? Thanks!
This game is meant to be played. While you need a level of AI in order for units to behave correctly when GIVEN orders, they should not be doing things without being commanded to do so. Anything contrary just plays for you while you spectate.
Macro is a major part of SC2 gameplay. Figuring out, keeping track mentally (or by manually checking) are all ways to solve your own questions. RTS games are about finding answers to questions. If the game maker is going to supply you with those answers, then it might as well be a tutorial, not a game. Or for ages 5-11.
Why are people picking apart such tiny details. Does the worker count help all of your pros on this thread? Who cares. If it doesn't help you then it isn't meant for you. It is meant for people who have a harder time for it. Auto mining minerals? I have seen complaints about skill ceiling and now not properly showing people sc and an RTS etc? Give it a rest. It is one thing in the first 5 seconds. I don't think they should have automine but there is no way this issue is big enough to cause a series of complaints like it has. It wont help pros. It wont change the game you watch.
On September 06 2012 06:28 Inex wrote: I don't think anyone else is really bothered by this, apart from some random dudes on the battle.net/TL forums. Boxing and sending my probes won't increase my skill, nor is the worker per base count. If you can't spend your money efficiently, no matter how facilitated the macro aspect becomes, you will still be a bad player. Let us all chill and enjoy the awesome new content.
Incorrect. True, neither will increase your skill. However, if you've ever seen a low level player being coached by a pro, you know they have trouble managing the correct number of workers per base. That's part of the game.
Here's my hyperbolic analogy: If you're going to send my workers to mine for me, and you build them for me too? Oh, and could you make some units too and send them over to my opponents base? Thanks!
This game is meant to be played. While you need a level of AI in order for units to behave correctly when GIVEN orders, they should not be doing things without being commanded to do so. Anything contrary just plays for you while you spectate.
Macro is a major part of SC2 gameplay. Figuring out, keeping track mentally (or by manually checking) are all ways to solve your own questions. RTS games are about finding answers to questions. If the game maker is going to supply you with those answers, then it might as well be a tutorial, not a game. Or for ages 5-11.
So you want the difference between bronze and gold to be people who can't count how many probes are on a mineral line? News flash for you people. Bronzers will still be bronzers and they will only be ever so slightly closer to the next skill level than before. It will only affect the people who can't macro and it wont be a huge game changing thing. Who cares if play improves at the bottom when all the pro posters here are surely not there.
I find it funny that all these people are upset with the change but yet when they switch the mining functionality from bw to sc2 players cried and said it was gonna make a big difference and it still hasn't made a difference. Everything is gunna be fine clam down yo. Really low level players don't even make workers. Then for the slightly better players that do make workers they are to slow and don't macro good enough and fall behind and lose. It doesn't matter if a player makes workers now that it says make X/24 workers, if it takes them longer then a skilled player does to make um. example good player gets to 40 supply in 5 mins and bad player gets there in 6 mins. Hope that example makes sense. Bottom line when they changed the mining mechanic in bw to sc2 it didn't make a damn difference and it isn't going to now.
edit: are you trying to say bronze players can't fucking count??? lol sorry
It's not like the players don't know how to get the workers to start mining, plus the new beginners tend to try to copy the pro's workers split rather than getting the basic control group, quene up the 1st worker production etc.
I like it overall since it doesn't make much difference for my level anyway
On September 06 2012 08:47 SgtCoDFish wrote: I think I'm going to have to take a break from reading forums for a while to avoid threads discussing this where hundreds of people come out and say "they're making the game easier, my passion is being drained!!!"
These changes are so freaking minor and people are jumping on them like they're huge.
The sending workers to mine at the beginning thing is a great option for people who lag at the start. It lets them start on more equal footing. Pros shouldn't be using it in theory because splitting allows you more control as to where workers end up so they can be put on closer mineral patches.
As for the worker counter: maybe it should be spectator only, but it's personal preference, really... which is why it's an option. The skill really isn't in counting the workers, it's in having the correct amount at each base, which isn't much skill anyway.
And it's a beta, so posting stuff like this OP in blizzard's forums might be more use. There's scope for change.
I did post it on blizzard forums as well.
It's depressing how many people are reading the OP without understanding it. I never once said that" omg blizzard is ruining the game"
My post is not about that. Everybody who doesn't understand why I would type all of this up about some skill cap that isn't affected at the high level has COMPLETELY missed the point of this.
The auto mine certainly alleviates the lag problem. But it's a crappy fix at best, and downright lazy at worst. Blizzard could much more easily put in a countdown timer for a true even beginning or at least fix their code.
With that in mind, this change must affect lower level players primarily. With that in mind (and it isn't just lag, because the lag issue has no bearing on the Your nexus to the mineral line because you can't make a probe until you are in game anyways). So, I looked at why the change was made for lower level players, and I explained that the way that they did it is WORSE for lower level players than a simple tool tipI never hated blizzard for making the game easier, I like the idea of it being more accessible to other players. But my post is about how blizzard could do it differently.
This is not a thread complaining about auto mine in the way that other threads are. Rather, I am addressing why blizzard could implement a much easier solution for new players that could be MUCH more all encompassing than automine.
Your hypothetical situation in which people get hurt or suffer from this change involves a player with zero RTS experience and no fundamental understanding of the game reaching the menu and deciding that the first game he ever plays of Sc2 is going to be a multiplayer quick match, and when he enters the game he's going to be mining minerals and have NO IDEA WHY. AND THATS BAD.
I can see this situation affecting upwards of 8 people in the next three years, which is close to the number of people that panicked and quit SC2 to date upon entering the game and recognizing that they already had a command center and 50 minerals.
Seriously, though, anyone that plays the campaign at all OR has a basic understanding of RTS games will quite likely figure out that workers give you money at the very most within 3 games. Arguing that it inhibits learning is foolish, because it is more than fair to assume that any player willing to enter a multiplayer game without that basic level of understanding won't take much offense to the "defeat!" screen that they'll see after several minutes of happily doing nothing and watching their money go up.
The worker count actually encourages people to ask questions and learn (if they care enough), and I'd be surprised if there aren't any "CHALLENGE" maps that explain the two points in worker count that result in diminishing economic returns, and I can't fathom how anyone would suffer from this. If your own play is so bad that you're concerned that this formerly secret information is now available to "casuals" and that they might be able to beat you now, perhaps your personal tastes are better suited to DOTA, where you have a glorious wealth of nuanced esoteric knowledge about the game that you can abuse to best your less experienced opponents.
I'm not attempting to insult you, OP, or claim you specifically are bad or stupid or whatever. You've shown you're not! I simply wish to clearly express how foolish it is to object to these simple changes on anything that isn't notedly a superficial level. They honestly don't change anything, and won't show up in tournaments and on streams. They're there in the interest of not having people gain advantages with secret information, and I can't see how that is bad for the game.
On September 06 2012 08:47 SgtCoDFish wrote: I think I'm going to have to take a break from reading forums for a while to avoid threads discussing this where hundreds of people come out and say "they're making the game easier, my passion is being drained!!!"
These changes are so freaking minor and people are jumping on them like they're huge.
The sending workers to mine at the beginning thing is a great option for people who lag at the start. It lets them start on more equal footing. Pros shouldn't be using it in theory because splitting allows you more control as to where workers end up so they can be put on closer mineral patches.
As for the worker counter: maybe it should be spectator only, but it's personal preference, really... which is why it's an option. The skill really isn't in counting the workers, it's in having the correct amount at each base, which isn't much skill anyway.
And it's a beta, so posting stuff like this OP in blizzard's forums might be more use. There's scope for change.
I did post it on blizzard forums as well.
It's depressing how many people are reading the OP without understanding it. I never once said that" omg blizzard is ruining the game"
My post is not about that. Everybody who doesn't understand why I would type all of this up about some skill cap that isn't affected at the high level has COMPLETELY missed the point of this.
The auto mine certainly alleviates the lag problem. But it's a crappy fix at best, and downright lazy at worst. Blizzard could much more easily put in a countdown timer for a true even beginning or at least fix their code.
With that in mind, this change must affect lower level players primarily. With that in mind (and it isn't just lag, because the lag issue has no bearing on the Your nexus to the mineral line because you can't make a probe until you are in game anyways). So, I looked at why the change was made for lower level players, and I explained that the way that they did it is WORSE for lower level players than a simple tool tipI never hated blizzard for making the game easier, I like the idea of it being more accessible to other players. But my post is about how blizzard could do it differently.
This is not a thread complaining about auto mine in the way that other threads are. Rather, I am addressing why blizzard could implement a much easier solution for new players that could be MUCH more all encompassing than automine.
People are ignoring your argument because it's a bad argument. It's based on the player being completely oblivious and unable to learn.
"Not only do they not know why their worker is moving, they don’t know how to get it to the minerals (this has already been done for them). They know they need to gather resources, but they have not seen that they need to actually make workers go to the mineral line. "
No one is that stupid, and if they are, they are going to have much bigger problems in SC2 than getting their workers to mine. In (almost) any RTS, left click to select, right click on something to interact. If a player can't figure out that right clicking on a mineral line will make a worker mine, how are they going to understand how to attack or move units? How did they even launch the game if they didn't understand the concept of using a mouse to interact with things on a computer? Even if they can't figure it out, it's something they only have to learn once.
You're claiming auto-mine/split is going to make the game harder for beginners, that's ridiculous.
On September 06 2012 09:40 Staboteur wrote: Dear OP:
Your hypothetical situation in which people get hurt or suffer from this change involves a player with zero RTS experience and no fundamental understanding of the game reaching the menu and deciding that the first game he ever plays of Sc2 is going to be a multiplayer quick match, and when he enters the game he's going to be mining minerals and have NO IDEA WHY. AND THATS BAD.
I can see this situation affecting upwards of 8 people in the next three years, which is close to the number of people that panicked and quit SC2 to date upon entering the game and recognizing that they already had a command center and 50 minerals.
Seriously, though, anyone that plays the campaign at all OR has a basic understanding of RTS games will quite likely figure out that workers give you money at the very most within 3 games. Arguing that it inhibits learning is foolish, because it is more than fair to assume that any player willing to enter a multiplayer game without that basic level of understanding won't take much offense to the "defeat!" screen that they'll see after several minutes of happily doing nothing and watching their money go up.
The worker count actually encourages people to ask questions and learn (if they care enough), and I'd be surprised if there aren't any "CHALLENGE" maps that explain the two points in worker count that result in diminishing economic returns, and I can't fathom how anyone would suffer from this. If your own play is so bad that you're concerned that this formerly secret information is now available to "casuals" and that they might be able to beat you now, perhaps your personal tastes are better suited to DOTA, where you have a glorious wealth of nuanced esoteric knowledge about the game that you can abuse to best your less experienced opponents.
I'm not attempting to insult you, OP, or claim you specifically are bad or stupid or whatever. You've shown you're not! I simply wish to clearly express how foolish it is to object to these simple changes on anything that isn't notedly a superficial level. They honestly don't change anything, and won't show up in tournaments and on streams. They're there in the interest of not having people gain advantages with secret information, and I can't see how that is bad for the game.
I love seeing a post of somebody who actually understood what I was saying. A few things:
I wrote this in between classes at uni, so my train of thought might have gotten disjointed. The point I was trying to get at overall, was that new players often are not very adept at picking up nuances in the game, and my examples probably were overblown when I wrote it. But the idea of this is that auto mine does not necessarily fix this problem, all it does is do step 1 of helping - workers mine minerals. On second glance of my ideas, they are neither the best nor the worst, and I still believe that what I suggested (tooltips) is a better implementation of helping new players than having a random automine.
Another problem arises (as somebody who is not me brought up) when you expand. A new player will expect their probes to be automatically rallied to the minerals - not the case. This is actually an issue that my first suggestion (that needs to be edited out because it was already in the game) brings up, auto rallying your nexus to the minerals.
Now, having laddered all the way up to high masters from bronze-goldish (never really sure with how beta worked ) I know that there are simple things that people forget about in those levels. Worker production is one. It's an important aspect of the game. Worker Saturation is another, equally important aspect of the game in my opinion. Knowing how many workers goes to a base is (like I said earlier, but solely in my opinion) an aspect of "microing" your economy. Yes, it is kind of menial, but it requires an active attempt to learn something about the game and apply it to each particular situation (how many probes you have per game), much like keeping your army in a deathball versus a mass ling force, or splitting versus bane/fungal.
Keeping your army in a deathball is a mindless task in and of itself, but it requires an active decision on your part based on the situation of the game. Even splitting is in some way mindless, because once you can do it, it is automatic. But deciding to split is an active participation in the game. My splits are nowehere near as good as MarineKing's, but my ability to do them is more or less automatic, the decision making (strategy) part comes in when I have to determine if splitting is a good idea.
In terms of worker saturation, you KNOW it's a good idea, but you have to decide how you want to do it. And gaining the ability to optimally saturate your workers is something that takes active knowledge of the game, with the tooltip, you're taking away a tangible sense of "economic micro" in the game. Yes you can just "turn it off" but then you're at a disadvantage with players who have it on. That's the particular reason why I dislike it, and it is neither necessarily the best or the most valid, it's just mine. I also feel like it interrupts the flow of the game (every bit of information we have had prior has been graphical, minus the spell tooltips that nobody reads). I feel like it unnecessarily clutters the game, but that's a matter of opinion and most certainly subject to disagreement.
I've also tried dota games, and I cannot possibly get into them. They're so boring XD. And I am most certainly not worried about new players catching up to me
Someone earlier wanted me to distinguish between casuals and new players. I should have done that at the beginning, but if I had included "noobs" in my title, people would immediately have the mindset of "damn he's an elitist prick who just doesn't care about bronze." Casual is often (and erroneously) associated with new or bad, which is why I chose it.
On September 06 2012 08:28 LgNKami wrote: I dont see a problem with automine at all. And if it makes the game a little easier for new people to understand, why not let them play? There are a lot of people who are scared away from sc2 because of how "complicated" the game is. Making some of the basic things, that everyone knows how to do anyway, a little easier for new people to understand is just fine. I want sc2 to grow, not get smaller.
okay. how do you feel about units like the siegetank being virtually replaced by the warhound? siege tanks have to focus fire to be useful many times vs good players, warhound will auto target units it gets a damage bonus against
how do you feel about idle army key (similar to idle worker, except it selects all army)? shouldn't players be rewarded for hotkeying all their units? wasn't part of this "design idea" to break apart the deathball? strange and hypocritical to add a button like this
how do you feel about the cc auto rallying to your minerals? were the 17 seconds in between starting worker 1 and 2 not enough time to do that?
i just dont undersstand the rationale for these changes other than "we can make more money if more people play. if we make things easier, more people will play"
all i was talking about was the automine feature. lol. I dont have anything to say about the warhound or the units in general as all I have done was seen HotS streams.
On September 06 2012 09:40 Staboteur wrote: Dear OP:
Your hypothetical situation in which people get hurt or suffer from this change involves a player with zero RTS experience and no fundamental understanding of the game reaching the menu and deciding that the first game he ever plays of Sc2 is going to be a multiplayer quick match, and when he enters the game he's going to be mining minerals and have NO IDEA WHY. AND THATS BAD.
I can see this situation affecting upwards of 8 people in the next three years, which is close to the number of people that panicked and quit SC2 to date upon entering the game and recognizing that they already had a command center and 50 minerals.
Seriously, though, anyone that plays the campaign at all OR has a basic understanding of RTS games will quite likely figure out that workers give you money at the very most within 3 games. Arguing that it inhibits learning is foolish, because it is more than fair to assume that any player willing to enter a multiplayer game without that basic level of understanding won't take much offense to the "defeat!" screen that they'll see after several minutes of happily doing nothing and watching their money go up.
The worker count actually encourages people to ask questions and learn (if they care enough), and I'd be surprised if there aren't any "CHALLENGE" maps that explain the two points in worker count that result in diminishing economic returns, and I can't fathom how anyone would suffer from this. If your own play is so bad that you're concerned that this formerly secret information is now available to "casuals" and that they might be able to beat you now, perhaps your personal tastes are better suited to DOTA, where you have a glorious wealth of nuanced esoteric knowledge about the game that you can abuse to best your less experienced opponents.
I'm not attempting to insult you, OP, or claim you specifically are bad or stupid or whatever. You've shown you're not! I simply wish to clearly express how foolish it is to object to these simple changes on anything that isn't notedly a superficial level. They honestly don't change anything, and won't show up in tournaments and on streams. They're there in the interest of not having people gain advantages with secret information, and I can't see how that is bad for the game.
Quoting for truth. Well written post that sums up a lot of what I was thinking, but too lazy to type out.
Wait wait wait... workers fucking auto split? So now the first 3-4 minutes of the game actually have no apparent reason, at least before you had the first couple seconds to split and some people would fuck up give some suspense... Now? Sweet, I want a "skip the first 2 minutes" button please.
I'm a platinum level player and I think these changes will help me. The changse aren't just geared towards new players who don't know the basics, it's not like that at all. The changes will make it so I will no longer have to count workers(time consuming) to have optimum saturation, and the auto-send workers is just one less thing I need to do at the start of the game.
On September 06 2012 10:09 terriBean wrote: I'm a platinum level player and I think these changes will help me. The changse aren't just geared towards new players who don't know the basics, it's not like that at all. The changes will make it so I will no longer have to count workers(time consuming) to have optimum saturation, and the auto-send workers is just one less thing I need to do at the start of the game.
T.T So you like the idea that "less things for you to do" = more skill? I mean in all honesty by this, as a Masters T I really have trouble keeping my supply depos going sometimes so I want my scvs to auto create depos when I get near 8 supply of the mark at around the 150 supply mark. Oh and I have trouble microing marines, so to make it easier let's have marines auto micro and stim back (like the bot that was arouind a year ago) so I don't have to, and medvac drops? I just want them to do the dmg on their own.
On September 06 2012 08:47 SgtCoDFish wrote: I think I'm going to have to take a break from reading forums for a while to avoid threads discussing this where hundreds of people come out and say "they're making the game easier, my passion is being drained!!!"
These changes are so freaking minor and people are jumping on them like they're huge.
The sending workers to mine at the beginning thing is a great option for people who lag at the start. It lets them start on more equal footing. Pros shouldn't be using it in theory because splitting allows you more control as to where workers end up so they can be put on closer mineral patches.
As for the worker counter: maybe it should be spectator only, but it's personal preference, really... which is why it's an option. The skill really isn't in counting the workers, it's in having the correct amount at each base, which isn't much skill anyway.
And it's a beta, so posting stuff like this OP in blizzard's forums might be more use. There's scope for change.
I did post it on blizzard forums as well.
It's depressing how many people are reading the OP without understanding it. I never once said that" omg blizzard is ruining the game"
My post is not about that. Everybody who doesn't understand why I would type all of this up about some skill cap that isn't affected at the high level has COMPLETELY missed the point of this.
The auto mine certainly alleviates the lag problem. But it's a crappy fix at best, and downright lazy at worst. Blizzard could much more easily put in a countdown timer for a true even beginning or at least fix their code.
With that in mind, this change must affect lower level players primarily. With that in mind (and it isn't just lag, because the lag issue has no bearing on the Your nexus to the mineral line because you can't make a probe until you are in game anyways). So, I looked at why the change was made for lower level players, and I explained that the way that they did it is WORSE for lower level players than a simple tool tipI never hated blizzard for making the game easier, I like the idea of it being more accessible to other players. But my post is about how blizzard could do it differently.
This is not a thread complaining about auto mine in the way that other threads are. Rather, I am addressing why blizzard could implement a much easier solution for new players that could be MUCH more all encompassing than automine.
People are ignoring your argument because it's a bad argument. It's based on the player being completely oblivious and unable to learn.
"Not only do they not know why their worker is moving, they don’t know how to get it to the minerals (this has already been done for them). They know they need to gather resources, but they have not seen that they need to actually make workers go to the mineral line. "
No one is that stupid, and if they are, they are going to have much bigger problems in SC2 than getting their workers to mine. In (almost) any RTS, left click to select, right click on something to interact. If a player can't figure out that right clicking on a mineral line will make a worker mine, how are they going to understand how to attack or move units? How did they even launch the game if they didn't understand the concept of using a mouse to interact with things on a computer? Even if they can't figure it out, it's something they only have to learn once.
You're claiming auto-mine/split is going to make the game harder for beginners, that's ridiculous.
1) Ad hominem ("it's a bad argument" while not necessarily an attack on me its still a fallacy as you don't provide any real basis, whereas I've stated that I've seen people in bronze struggle with simple things like rallying their workers to the minerals) is unnecessary. It also doesn't address the fact that they aren't reading my argument at all, and if it's simply a "bad argument" then why post about something completely unrelated?
Would you argue that attack moving is common sense? Because it isn't. Worker rush in bronze - people right click SCVs. They ignore an extremely common sense tactic, and one that is directly addressed in the campaign, but for some reason they don't do it. Why? I'm not saying the player is oblivious to learning, I'm saying that an unnecessary confusion can be placed on somebody when a tooltip would be a much easier and simpler way of resolving the issue.
And multiple times I have acknowledged that my opinions/examples were both overblown, disjointed, and not necessarily the best. But all you did was pick out one example (that I even admit was overdone) and criticize it. But how many games of bronze players have you seen? I have been in bronze, I have friends who are in bronze right now, and they don't always rally their workers. They obviously know that they should be rallying their workers, but I have literally had to tell friends every game to do mundane stuff like that. I have friends who don't understand attack move (The "fourth" thing anybody should learn, behind building workers, structures, and units).
I sound like an ass for saying so, but you're almost giving bronze players too much credit for being able to learn. ANYBODY in bronze who wants to learn can easily get out of bronze. The problem is so many of them don't want to, or choose not to learn. That's why you see worker rushes, 6 pools, mass void rays on one base, stuff like that, because its easy to execute and it requires no actual learning.
Learning (like I said) should be in the sense of tooltips, not a hidden option in the game menu that nobody is going to bother with or understand. Would it not be much easier to have tooltips explaining every facet of the game to a new player until they disable them? "These are probes/SCVs/Drones, your main mining unit. Use them to gather resources" could easily be the starting tip for a game. As soon as you click on a Nexus, it could say "this is your Nexus, it does X..."
Is that not easier than automining units and not explaining why they automine? Sure they rally to minerals and what not but that doesn't explain anything about the game or how to help newer players get accustomed to it.
On September 06 2012 10:09 terriBean wrote: I'm a platinum level player and I think these changes will help me. The changse aren't just geared towards new players who don't know the basics, it's not like that at all. The changes will make it so I will no longer have to count workers(time consuming) to have optimum saturation, and the auto-send workers is just one less thing I need to do at the start of the game.
I'm actually not too against the idea of auto mine. It's a necessary (at least temporarily) fix to the lag issues at the beginning of a game. The problem is I think Blizzard intended it to assist new players, and I believe that there is a better way to do that.
I think it's a little strange that the auto-mining and worker counts are being lumped together.
Sure, they were both added to help weaker players, but the former is mostly inconsequential in SC2 once you know what the workers do, while the latter will have repercussions in most of the lower leagues for sure, and even pros might benefit from not having to spend a few seconds less every game boxing and quickly figuring out how many workers they have.
Personally I don't mind, IMO things like these shouldn't be what separate pros from noobs.
bro, this isn't a huge deal, the first 2 seconds of a game is meaningless. This helps lower level players and people with bad computers, how will this effect pro level at all when thats the only thing that really matters in the end?
24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem?
until blizzard adds in a button where you hit it and you get green arrows telling you where to place your army, then I don't give a shit about the little things they add to help the casual players. The more casuals the better imo, it's why LOL is so successful because they have so many scrubs playing a F2P game. This game will never be F2P, so to keep the casuals coming back, they make it a bit easier, big deal.
On September 06 2012 10:16 emc wrote: bro, this isn't a huge deal, the first 2 seconds of a game is meaningless. This helps lower level players and people with bad computers, how will this effect pro level at all when thats the only thing that really matters in the end?
24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem?
The problem is you completely ignored my point >.>
On September 06 2012 10:16 emc wrote: bro, this isn't a huge deal, the first 2 seconds of a game is meaningless. This helps lower level players and people with bad computers, how will this effect pro level at all when thats the only thing that really matters in the end?
24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem?
The problem is you completely ignored my point >.>
your point is you dont like it, and blizzard should change it.
blizzard won't change it.
and if tournaments desire, they can BAN it because it's an option in the menus. if tournaments ban the function, then pros will never use it.
On September 06 2012 10:16 emc wrote: bro, this isn't a huge deal, the first 2 seconds of a game is meaningless. This helps lower level players and people with bad computers, how will this effect pro level at all when thats the only thing that really matters in the end?
24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem?
The problem is you completely ignored my point >.>
your point is you dont like it, and blizzard should change it.
blizzard won't change it.
and if tournaments desire, they can BAN it because it's an option in the menus. if tournaments ban the function, then pros will never use it.
Actually, that's exactly what I've been trying to tell people ISN'T my point. Nice reading skills.
I believe there's a problem with it, but not that I don't like it. I have already acknowledged that it's necessary (to fix lag) which you completely ignored. My next point is that there is a better way to help casuals than this, i.e. tooltips like in that game LoL that you claim is so popular.
When did I complain about blizzard making the game easier? Yes I said I didn't like how it's implemented, but not for the reason you're saying. You're implying that I'm just whining, whereas my entire post highlights how I think the game could be made easier in a way that is less obtrusive. Even if automine stays (which I would be ok with) I don't think it's the way that blizzard should take to introduce the game to new players. THAT was my point. Blizzard doesn't need to change it, they just need to add to it. I never said Automine needs to be completely removed from the game, I just said that the function blizzard wants it to serve would be better done by something else.
On September 06 2012 10:09 terriBean wrote: I'm a platinum level player and I think these changes will help me. The changse aren't just geared towards new players who don't know the basics, it's not like that at all. The changes will make it so I will no longer have to count workers(time consuming) to have optimum saturation, and the auto-send workers is just one less thing I need to do at the start of the game.
Which proves the point that it is a bad thing from the standpoint of reducing skill in the game. It actually does require a higher level of multitasking to check worker saturation constantly and it is rewarding to have achieved it. I'm not exactly sure of the figures, but a worker mining at a suboptimal rate mines something like 30 minerals less per minute, which is a big deal, especially at the higher level.
The thing is, I don't even see how it will improve the game experience for lower level players. If I didn't really aspire to getting better than my current level then I wouldn't have a terrible time playing with suboptimal mineral saturation, because I would be matched up with likeminded people. The only thing this change is going to do is allow people with less multitasking (or what was previously less multitasking) play at the same level at those who do have the ability to check mineral saturation constantly.
I don't really like the fact that mining starts automatically, but I see it as a bad fix to a problem that does exist. Everyone seems to be going on as if this is the actual issue, but I see the worker counter as a much greater issue, as it does actually reduce the amount of skill required to play the game, and due to the importance of mineral saturation in the game, it reduces skill to a non-trivial degree. A lot of people seem to be ridiculing this idea with statements such as "LOLOL now it tells me my mineral saturation i can play at the level of Mvp". While this is obviously not true, it is actually things like this that do separate players like Mvp from the rest of us. ONE worker mining sub-optimally for ONE minute leads to a loss of ~30 minerals, make that two workers and you have one extra marine with some minerals left over, a huge deal, not even at the very highest level of play but even as low as diamond. If someone is not paying constant attention to their mineral saturation (which of course is made easier by having the constant reminder on your Town Hall), they could easily have two too many workers on one base and two too little on another. In the long term this will make a massive, massive difference.
While having a constant reminder of minerals wont allow scrubs to play at the level of Mvp, it just takes away one of the things that players like him have the opportunity to excel at and show how amazing they are at this game.
On September 06 2012 10:16 emc wrote: bro, this isn't a huge deal, the first 2 seconds of a game is meaningless. This helps lower level players and people with bad computers, how will this effect pro level at all when thats the only thing that really matters in the end?
24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem?
The problem is you completely ignored my point >.>
You ignored MY points! And someone even quoted them for truth!
On September 06 2012 10:25 734pot wrote:While having a constant reminder of minerals wont allow scrubs to play at the level of Mvp, it just takes away one of the things that players like him have the opportunity to excel at and show how amazing they are at this game.
In the end it comes down to how important you think such a skill is for pros. I personally don't think it's a big deal, I'd rather be impressed by unit control, predicting the enemy's strategies, creative build orders and so on. As long as there's plenty of depth to those I don't mind the little things like these being trimmed away.
On September 06 2012 10:11 NeMeSiS3 wrote: T.T So you like the idea that "less things for you to do" = more skill? I mean in all honesty by this, as a Masters T I really have trouble keeping my supply depos going sometimes so I want my scvs to auto create depos when I get near 8 supply of the mark at around the 150 supply mark. Oh and I have trouble microing marines, so to make it easier let's have marines auto micro and stim back (like the bot that was arouind a year ago) so I don't have to, and medvac drops? I just want them to do the dmg on their own.
Let's make this game of chess into checkers.
This ties into my point directly. None of the things you mentioned are things I'd want removed, because I value a pro's ability to manage unit supply and unit control a great deal more than I do the ability to count workers rapidly. So saying I want the latter removed doesn't imply the former must also happen (slippery slope fallacy).
On September 06 2012 10:16 emc wrote: bro, this isn't a huge deal, the first 2 seconds of a game is meaningless. This helps lower level players and people with bad computers, how will this effect pro level at all when thats the only thing that really matters in the end?
24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem?
The problem is you completely ignored my point >.>
You ignored MY points! And someone even quoted them for truth!
Somebody owes me an apology Now I may not have answered it satisfactorily to you, but that's a different matter entirely. I definitely made an effort to answer it. Not only that, I answered it before that person QFT'd.
Edit: However, if I DO happen to ignore somebody's points (particularly in pages 3-5 because I missed those and only addressed what I felt summarized the page really) please let me know if you take issue with it.
On September 06 2012 10:25 734pot wrote:While having a constant reminder of minerals wont allow scrubs to play at the level of Mvp, it just takes away one of the things that players like him have the opportunity to excel at and show how amazing they are at this game.
In the end it comes down to how important you think such a skill is for pros. I personally don't think it's a big deal, I'd rather be impressed by unit control, predicting the enemy's strategies, creative build orders and so on. As long as there's plenty of depth to those I don't mind the little things like these being trimmed away.
On September 06 2012 10:11 NeMeSiS3 wrote: T.T So you like the idea that "less things for you to do" = more skill? I mean in all honesty by this, as a Masters T I really have trouble keeping my supply depos going sometimes so I want my scvs to auto create depos when I get near 8 supply of the mark at around the 150 supply mark. Oh and I have trouble microing marines, so to make it easier let's have marines auto micro and stim back (like the bot that was arouind a year ago) so I don't have to, and medvac drops? I just want them to do the dmg on their own.
Let's make this game of chess into checkers.
This ties into my point directly. None of the things you mentioned are things I'd want removed, because I value a pro's ability to manage unit supply and unit control a great deal more than I do the ability to count workers rapidly. So saying I want the latter removed doesn't imply the former must also happen (slippery slope fallacy).
This is much more subjective, and I like hearing this personally. This is where we get differentiation - whether or not you value a player's ability to intuitively know how to properly saturate workers. Depending on how importantly you view economy management in SC2, the change will mean different things to you, and I'm completely ok with that. It's completely reasonable to not see the point in boxing/microing your economy, but I also think it's reasonable to care about it (the side I happen to fall on).
On September 06 2012 10:25 734pot wrote:While having a constant reminder of minerals wont allow scrubs to play at the level of Mvp, it just takes away one of the things that players like him have the opportunity to excel at and show how amazing they are at this game.
In the end it comes down to how important you think such a skill is for pros. I personally don't think it's a big deal, I'd rather be impressed by unit control, predicting the enemy's strategies, creative build orders and so on. As long as there's plenty of depth to those I don't mind the little things like these being trimmed away.
But what makes players like Mvp so great is that they can do both at the same time. It not like you have to make a choice between the game having good micro situations and the macro requiring skill. Someone who can multitask is much more impressive than someone who can only macro or only micro.
I don't really see any good reason to take skills like this away. It doesn't really make the game more accessible, its not like lower level players even pay great attention to this sort of thing in the first place and its not going to ruin their gaming experience if its too hard for them to do, they'll just be matched up against other people who have the same skill deficiency. Its small enough of a deficiency that it won't really matter till they get to a higher level, and I'd like to think that people that play at this higher level actually get some satisfaction from mastering something that isn't flashy explosions. I acknowledge that the game does need to be accessible to lower players, but not at the expense of dumbing down play at the highest level.
what i don't understand is why blizzard doesn't just make these changes only affect practice league. I mean, completely new players are supposed to play practice league matches first anyways, so they should learn from it.
Another solution I saw: Instead of automated WC/B, just provide a numeric value after you box workers. It seems like a reasonable compromise between the two. Such a thing already exists (check out here) and something like this could probably be implemented into HOTS, for a more subtle way of giving a quick numerical number, while still requiring an action on the users part.
On September 06 2012 10:42 ironpiggy wrote: what i don't understand is why blizzard doesn't just make these changes only affect practice league. I mean, completely new players are supposed to play practice league matches first anyways, so they should learn from it.
Thats a very good point. If they're trying to add features that supposedly make the game more accessible for lower level players, then they should make such features only for that purpose.
On September 06 2012 10:44 Alryk wrote: Another solution I saw: Instead of automated WC/B, just provide a numeric value after you box workers. It seems like a reasonable compromise between the two. Such a thing already exists (check out here) and something like this could probably be implemented into HOTS, for a more subtle way of giving a quick numerical number, while still requiring an action on the users part.
Edited into OP as well.
I like this idea, as it maintains the APM and rewards being attentive to something that isn't completely obvious in the visual sense. It still does make it a bit easier, which I would still prefer to be avoided though, as it does take away some of the visual programming people have gained from looking at the wireframes (is this the right term?) after boxing over workers, but it sort of seems like I'm nitpicking at that point.
The thing is, I don't even see why they need to put this in in the first place, though it could actually be a good idea for lower league players. Maybe only practice league or even up to Plat. I prefer this solution to be honest because it leaves play at the highest level completely untouched.
On September 06 2012 10:44 Alryk wrote: Another solution I saw: Instead of automated WC/B, just provide a numeric value after you box workers. It seems like a reasonable compromise between the two. Such a thing already exists (check out here) and something like this could probably be implemented into HOTS, for a more subtle way of giving a quick numerical number, while still requiring an action on the users part.
Edited into OP as well.
I like this idea, as it maintains the APM and rewards being attentive to something that isn't completely obvious in the visual sense. It still does make it a bit easier, which I would still prefer to be avoided though, as it does take away some of the visual programming people have gained from looking at the wireframes (is this the right term?) after boxing over workers, but it sort of seems like I'm nitpicking at that point.
The thing is, I don't even see why they need to put this in in the first place, though it could actually be a good idea for lower league players. Maybe only practice league or even up to Plat. I prefer this solution to be honest because it leaves play at the highest level completely untouched.
I've thought about these kinds of ideas, but once a player advances to plat, some (not all of them) will not adapt to not having worker counts. It'd be like fishing in front of a cave man every day and feeding him, and then leaving and expecting him to do it himself. Some will succeed, some won't, (and then they die :O) and then they might have trouble making it past plat until they learn to manage it anyways.
On September 06 2012 10:44 Alryk wrote: Another solution I saw: Instead of automated WC/B, just provide a numeric value after you box workers. It seems like a reasonable compromise between the two. Such a thing already exists (check out here) and something like this could probably be implemented into HOTS, for a more subtle way of giving a quick numerical number, while still requiring an action on the users part.
Edited into OP as well.
I like this idea, as it maintains the APM and rewards being attentive to something that isn't completely obvious in the visual sense. It still does make it a bit easier, which I would still prefer to be avoided though, as it does take away some of the visual programming people have gained from looking at the wireframes (is this the right term?) after boxing over workers, but it sort of seems like I'm nitpicking at that point.
The thing is, I don't even see why they need to put this in in the first place, though it could actually be a good idea for lower league players. Maybe only practice league or even up to Plat. I prefer this solution to be honest because it leaves play at the highest level completely untouched.
I've thought about these kinds of ideas, but once a player advances to plat, some (not all of them) will not adapt to not having worker counts. It'd be like fishing in front of a cave man every day and feeding him, and then leaving and expecting him to do it himself. Some will succeed, some won't, (and then they die :O) and then they might have trouble making it past plat until they learn to manage it anyways.
But isn't that how advancing as a player works? As you get better you need to improve your skillset and even incorporate new things into that skill set. Normally this is necessitated by the increase in skill of your opponents, but in this case it is necessitated by the UI itself demanding a higher skill level. As long as players understand the concept of worker saturation and its importance then I don't see them eventually completely failing at the game because it doesn't blatantly tell them the level of saturation.
On September 06 2012 10:44 Alryk wrote: Another solution I saw: Instead of automated WC/B, just provide a numeric value after you box workers. It seems like a reasonable compromise between the two. Such a thing already exists (check out here) and something like this could probably be implemented into HOTS, for a more subtle way of giving a quick numerical number, while still requiring an action on the users part.
Edited into OP as well.
I like this idea, as it maintains the APM and rewards being attentive to something that isn't completely obvious in the visual sense. It still does make it a bit easier, which I would still prefer to be avoided though, as it does take away some of the visual programming people have gained from looking at the wireframes (is this the right term?) after boxing over workers, but it sort of seems like I'm nitpicking at that point.
The thing is, I don't even see why they need to put this in in the first place, though it could actually be a good idea for lower league players. Maybe only practice league or even up to Plat. I prefer this solution to be honest because it leaves play at the highest level completely untouched.
I've thought about these kinds of ideas, but once a player advances to plat, some (not all of them) will not adapt to not having worker counts. It'd be like fishing in front of a cave man every day and feeding him, and then leaving and expecting him to do it himself. Some will succeed, some won't, (and then they die :O) and then they might have trouble making it past plat until they learn to manage it anyways.
But isn't that how advancing as a player works? As you get better you need to improve your skillset and even incorporate new things into that skill set. Normally this is necessitated by the increase in skill of your opponents, but in this case it is necessitated by the UI itself demanding a higher skill level. As long as players understand the concept of worker saturation and its importance then I don't see them eventually completely failing at the game because it doesn't blatantly tell them the level of saturation.
It's definitely worth considering, and also a potential option for sure. At some level, resource management should probably be your own.
I'm just too hungry to think about it, and I want my bbq chicken/rice (on campus from 9-8 today haha)
the beta has been out for less than 24 hrs and you are alrdy giving your solutions to problems...let the game play out for umm, maybe more than a day before you complain.
On September 06 2012 10:09 terriBean wrote: I'm a platinum level player and I think these changes will help me. The changse aren't just geared towards new players who don't know the basics, it's not like that at all. The changes will make it so I will no longer have to count workers(time consuming) to have optimum saturation, and the auto-send workers is just one less thing I need to do at the start of the game.
T.T So you like the idea that "less things for you to do" = more skill? I mean in all honesty by this, as a Masters T I really have trouble keeping my supply depos going sometimes so I want my scvs to auto create depos when I get near 8 supply of the mark at around the 150 supply mark. Oh and I have trouble microing marines, so to make it easier let's have marines auto micro and stim back (like the bot that was arouind a year ago) so I don't have to, and medvac drops? I just want them to do the dmg on their own.
Let's make this game of chess into checkers.
well imagine a pro level game, where the mineral line was just harassed by muta for example.
Rather than Bracketing the mineral lines after sending them back to the gas/mineral and make a conclusion how many workers were just killed (have to assume the base was saturated/or they know the EXACT number of workers before the harassment)
They can now just simply sent the workers back to gas/minerals and have a more accurate number on how many workers were just killed.
what you are suggesting (auto supply depot) is more on the line of the AI automatically making/transfering workers till optimal for you. It's more like an enlarged coloured Supply count on the side when you are close to supply block
(the saturation number also changed according to how many mineral patches are left, pretty useful if you are asking me)
On September 06 2012 11:28 Disarm22 wrote: the beta has been out for less than 24 hrs and you are alrdy giving your solutions to problems...let the game play out for umm, maybe more than a day before you complain.
Oh come on. Arguments like this are silly, especially with something static not related to balance like this. Why should I? Is automine going to be different 2 weeks from now? Is anybody going to find "clever" uses of it to balance it? Unlike balance changes, where gameplay data can definitely give a reason to delay (somebody might know of a way to counter the warhound effectively that hasn't been seen yet for example), automine isn't changing anytime soon. I got my first impression of it, and am discussing it. And the only way to get something static like this changed is particularly that.
If you disagree: how exactly is waiting going to help me get something that I want changed, changed (in this case)? If it's because "blizzard might decide to change it anyways" won't feedback (very quickly) convince them to change even faster?
On September 06 2012 10:16 emc wrote: bro, this isn't a huge deal, the first 2 seconds of a game is meaningless. This helps lower level players and people with bad computers, how will this effect pro level at all when thats the only thing that really matters in the end?
24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem?
The problem is you completely ignored my point >.>
You ignored MY points! And someone even quoted them for truth!
Somebody owes me an apology Now I may not have answered it satisfactorily to you, but that's a different matter entirely. I definitely made an effort to answer it. Not only that, I answered it before that person QFT'd.
Edit: However, if I DO happen to ignore somebody's points (particularly in pages 3-5 because I missed those and only addressed what I felt summarized the page really) please let me know if you take issue with it.
Hahaha! Sorry :D
Though I don't see how making otherwise "secret" information more obvious is harmful or bad. I mean, without a counter for how many workers you have, why would anyone think there is a max? Workers give you money, why wouldn't more workers give more money? A counter that says x OF 24 can imply to newer players that there's possibly a limit to how many workers you can have at one base, and lead them to educate themselves on that important subject.
Workers automatically mining displays the primary function of a worker, and clicking on the command center would reveal the little rally line and is fairly intuitive. Presented with the problem between their expansion's workers not automatically going to mine poses an interesting problem to solve for the player, but given the information they've had up to this point and relatively intuitive design, most people that have made it that far are capable of figuring that puzzle out.
The changes are consistent with taking steps away from esoteric knowledge being necessary to play effectively!
On September 06 2012 12:09 j.k.l wrote: i don't get why people are bull shiting about the auto mine.
Seriously if you want a harder game ask for a manually put worker to mine change just like we had in BW...
yeah i didn't think so,
see my point?
I dont get why people are bull "shiting" about threads when they don't read them.
Seriously if you want to insult somebody try reading their thread properly so you can have some good things to insult them with.
Apparently you don't want to.
See my point?
I mean god, you didn't even read the TL;DR...
TL;DR 1) Auto mine is an acceptable (but poor) fix to the "entering a game late" scenario. 2) Auto mine serves two functions: fixing that bug and helping new players. Tooltips would be a MUCH more useful method of helping new players with the game, and they would be much more all encompassing than simple auto mine. It's a win-win for both new players and "elitists" 3) Worker count per base interrupts with the idea of "microing" your economy. 4) Completely subjectively: I don't like WC/B because it interrupts with the feeling of the game in my opinion. WC/B is much more subject to opinion than my ideas about automine, as I see it. (Need of a tooltip that is) 5) Ultimately I would be ok with both changes going through (particularly WC/B because I still do it badly at masters) but I still dislike the change.
Why they can't make it as an option in custom games, to help new players, but remove it from ladder, so it can help new players but doesn't ruins the game itselfs. Cause cmon it becomes ridiclious, next expansion the game produces the units and workers alone, all you do is move your units. This is really not the point of a RTS-Game.
TL;DR 1) Auto mine is an acceptable (but poor) fix to the "entering a game late" scenario. 2) Auto mine serves two functions: fixing that bug and helping new players. Tooltips would be a MUCH more useful method of helping new players with the game, and they would be much more all encompassing than simple auto mine. It's a win-win for both new players and "elitists" 3) Worker count per base interrupts with the idea of "microing" your economy. 4) Completely subjectively: I don't like WC/B because it interrupts with the feeling of the game in my opinion. WC/B is much more subject to opinion than my ideas about automine, as I see it. (Need of a tooltip that is) 5) Ultimately I would be ok with both changes going through (particularly WC/B because I still do it badly at masters) but I still dislike the change.
When did I complain about it being too easy?
did i say anything related to what you have accused me of? seriously people need to stop making assumptions.
On September 06 2012 12:09 j.k.l wrote: i don't get why people are bull shiting about the auto mine.
Seriously if you want a harder game ask for a manually put worker to mine change just like we had in BW...
yeah i didn't think so,
see my point?
I dont get why people are bull "shiting" about threads when they don't read them.
Seriously if you want to insult somebody try reading their thread properly so you can have some good things to insult them with.
Apparently you don't want to.
See my point?
I mean god, you didn't even read the TL;DR...
TL;DR 1) Auto mine is an acceptable (but poor) fix to the "entering a game late" scenario. 2) Auto mine serves two functions: fixing that bug and helping new players. Tooltips would be a MUCH more useful method of helping new players with the game, and they would be much more all encompassing than simple auto mine. It's a win-win for both new players and "elitists" 3) Worker count per base interrupts with the idea of "microing" your economy. 4) Completely subjectively: I don't like WC/B because it interrupts with the feeling of the game in my opinion. WC/B is much more subject to opinion than my ideas about automine, as I see it. (Need of a tooltip that is) 5) Ultimately I would be ok with both changes going through (particularly WC/B because I still do it badly at masters) but I still dislike the change.
When did I complain about it being too easy?
did i say anything related to what you have accused me of? seriously people need to stop making assumptions.
Idk technically not. But how many people would read your post and not conclude that you were insulting me in some way? Especially considering your "If you wanted a harder game just ask for this..."
If it didn't imply that I was complaining about how easy the game was, and you were merely remarking "well if he wanted the game to be harder, he should just say this" why on earth are you commenting here, since clearly it has nothing to do with any of my comments?
You also say "i don't get why people are bull shitting about auto mine" Saying that in my thread which discusses auto mine ALSO implies that you saw the thread, assumed I was complaining, and then decided to complain about my complaining *that doesn't exist*
I accused you of not reading my OP. I believe that because you blindly complain about people whining about automine. Seeing as I've seen that reaction countless times already, it would be reasonable for me to assume you're doing it as well. Why isn't that a logical conclusion? And if it isn't, PLEASE tell me why you came into this particular thread to complain about people complaining about auto mine, especially if it had nothing to do with my OP.
I made an assumption in the same way you did. (I hope). You assumed I was whining about automine, hence the "i dont get why people are bull shitting about auto mine." I hope that was your assumption, otherwise you've either clicked the wrong thread or you're just plain trolling for no reason. I assumed that, from your comment, you hadn't read my OP (also relevant, in the context of this thread).
On September 06 2012 10:16 emc wrote: bro, this isn't a huge deal, the first 2 seconds of a game is meaningless. This helps lower level players and people with bad computers, how will this effect pro level at all when thats the only thing that really matters in the end?
24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem?
The problem is you completely ignored my point >.>
You ignored MY points! And someone even quoted them for truth!
Somebody owes me an apology Now I may not have answered it satisfactorily to you, but that's a different matter entirely. I definitely made an effort to answer it. Not only that, I answered it before that person QFT'd.
Edit: However, if I DO happen to ignore somebody's points (particularly in pages 3-5 because I missed those and only addressed what I felt summarized the page really) please let me know if you take issue with it.
Hahaha! Sorry :D
Though I don't see how making otherwise "secret" information more obvious is harmful or bad. I mean, without a counter for how many workers you have, why would anyone think there is a max? Workers give you money, why wouldn't more workers give more money? A counter that says x OF 24 can imply to newer players that there's possibly a limit to how many workers you can have at one base, and lead them to educate themselves on that important subject.
Workers automatically mining displays the primary function of a worker, and clicking on the command center would reveal the little rally line and is fairly intuitive. Presented with the problem between their expansion's workers not automatically going to mine poses an interesting problem to solve for the player, but given the information they've had up to this point and relatively intuitive design, most people that have made it that far are capable of figuring that puzzle out.
The changes are consistent with taking steps away from esoteric knowledge being necessary to play effectively!
See, I like you.
Well, I've said before (or at least changed my views to say) I don't necessarily think auto mine is a problem. We've already established that it's 1) necessary and 2) has no effect on high level play. That said, if it's something designed to make "secret" information more obvious, why not be more all encompassing with it and include tooltips for everything?
And about the "why would anyone think there is a max," there is already an in-loading screen tooltip that tells you that you can have a max of 3 workers per base, so anybody who's loaded more than 5 games should know this (granted I've made some arguments about how new players will have trouble in their first few games, but if somebody gets to 30 workers in their game #1 with no RTS experience, I'd be proud)
The rest of your points I'm more or less in line with. I already advocated auto rallying (but its in the game haha) and I think that auto mine isn't actually bad, it's just not fulfilling the function it's supposed to as best as it could (in my opinion), or as well as another "idea" could.
IMHO I don't see why Blizzard actually automatically implemented this feature for an expansion. It's logical to say, enable it as an option for those who is lagging. But TBH I don't see the point as you have bought the expansion which anyone could assume you have basic knowledge of RTS or how SC works. Granted that should you bought it just cause it looks interesting, you could at least play the original campaign, look at the unit description, play the tutorial, and most importantly, play the practice matches as it is exactly what those features are for isn't it? I'd honestly have it implemented but have the players figure it out for themselves as a part of a learning experience.
The change has the same affect on all players. The better player will still win and not because both players' starting workers auto mined in the beggining of the game. If anything the changes help the pros have better games. Instead of pros having to box/ count/ and adjust, they can use thier insane apm elsewhere in-turn making the game smoother for both pros involved and also for the fans watching.
I agree w/ blizzard and also can't wait to play, currently deployed and can't wait to get home. --Peace
How come this thread isn't closed yet ? I still don't understand why it's a big deal. Do you seriously have nothing else to do than complain to the most trivials things you see in each patch (expansion in this case) ?...
Really don't see how showing the worker count per base is a bad thing. Your enemy doesn't see it, only yourself. You already can see the amount of workers you have by doing it the old way, this information isn't hidden from you.
On September 06 2012 13:41 RaiZ wrote: How come this thread isn't closed yet ? I still don't understand why it's a big deal. Do you seriously have nothing else to do than complain to the most trivials things you see in each patch (expansion in this case) ?...
Why the senseless hate? I'm not really "complaining," and you implying that I am seems a bit silly, considering I've at least tried to make my OP very "solution based" instead of "problem based."
I didn't ask to remove any features blizz put in, (I guess WC/B but I'd rather it be retooled, not removed), rather I'm saying that there are better ways to do what I think they're trying to do. I'm not sure why you think I'm complaining about "trivial things."
On September 06 2012 13:48 Herper wrote: Really don't see how showing the worker count per base is a bad thing. Your enemy doesn't see it, only yourself. You already can see the amount of workers you have by doing it the old way, this information isn't hidden from you.
Yeah, it's basically opinion.
I said it earlier - I think managing worker saturation is a matter of economic micro, one of the finer points of the economy that helps give you an edge, much like splitting or multitasking - therefore, to me, it's as integral to the game as splitting. Whether or not you agree with that train of thought is entirely up to you, and I think it's been split basically down the middle in responses.
On September 06 2012 13:48 Herper wrote: Really don't see how showing the worker count per base is a bad thing. Your enemy doesn't see it, only yourself. You already can see the amount of workers you have by doing it the old way, this information isn't hidden from you.
Yeah, it's basically opinion.
I said it earlier - I think managing worker saturation is a matter of economic micro, one of the finer points of the economy that helps give you an edge, much like splitting or multitasking - therefore, to me, it's as integral to the game as splitting. Whether or not you agree with that train of thought is entirely up to you, and I think it's been split basically down the middle in responses.
This isn't a skill based variable by any means. You shoiuldn't win a game based off lag at the beginning or your ability to quickly split workers. Its such a miniscule point of interest, these threads are ridiculous.
Your initial 6 workers mine minerals, thats what they do, thats what they'll always do. There's no decision or strategy or game-breaking changes you can do with your first 6 workers. Evening out the playing field for people who have intermittent lag at the beginning of the game can ONLY be a good thing.
There is a campaign as you all may seem to forget, and many, if not all casual players will try it at some point if they spent 60 dollars on the game. The campaign will teach you basic things such as mineral/gas gathering and rally points. I really hope everyone is aware of this fact.
And lastly, what could possibly be wrong with having worker counts above ur cc/refineries. Regardless of your skill level, it doesn't impact anything minus the ability to check ur counts without boxing. A skilled player will know how many workers they want at each base, and having a "max" count won't change anything for them. And for bronzies, it will help them realize that 24 workers is the "max" and they will have a reasonable economy, even if they don't know what they're doing.
I just don't see the aforementioned change to the "skill ceiling" with these changes. They implemented it pretty well, and no advantages are given (or taken away) to anyone skilled or not.
You're putting a big paragraph as to why it should become clear to make them mine minerals manually because otherwise they'd not understand why they're doing it in the first place.
I really really did my best to not say "F.. off" because all you're trying to explain is already explained to the new players : I call it "Campaign".
Yeah right there.
The worker count again is not a big fucking deal. Seriously, Do you really want every player to count the workers every fucking minute ? I know i don't. If this "not so aesthetic" thing is really bothering you because it doesn't fit with your perfect vision of the elitist game called BW, then lemme say "f. you". Argh.
Stop comparing this game to BW, It's not BW. This game is trying to make all the trivials things called auto mine and mbs to be automatic so that you can focus on a more strategic approach of the game. If, for you, winning the game because you did a perfect split of workers on each 3 bases instead of focusing more on your army, is what you call a win then lemme say you're wrong. I want this game to be awarded solely to the most strategic player, not for the player who has the most apm (And no i don't have low apm in case you're wondering, in fact i just don't fucking care).
Argh. I'll probably get a warning or a perm ban but i don't care. I'm so annoyed at all those whinning bitches. Just please stop whinning for every minor changes there's in the game. Focus on the most importants changes that are the new units.
On September 06 2012 13:56 HypaSnipa wrote: This isn't a skill based variable by any means. You shoiuldn't win a game based off lag at the beginning or your ability to quickly split workers. Its such a miniscule point of interest, these threads are ridiculous.
Your initial 6 workers mine minerals, thats what they do, thats what they'll always do. There's no decision or strategy or game-breaking changes you can do with your first 6 workers. Evening out the playing field for people who have intermittent lag at the beginning of the game can ONLY be a good thing.
There is a campaign as you all may seem to forget, and many, if not all casual players will try it at some point if they spent 60 dollars on the game. The campaign will teach you basic things such as mineral/gas gathering and rally points. I really hope everyone is aware of this fact.
And lastly, what could possibly be wrong with having worker counts above ur cc/refineries. Regardless of your skill level, it doesn't impact anything minus the ability to check ur counts without boxing. A skilled player will know how many workers they want at each base, and having a "max" count won't change anything for them. And for bronzies, it will help them realize that 24 workers is the "max" and they will have a reasonable economy, even if they don't know what they're doing.
I just don't see the aforementioned change to the "skill ceiling" with these changes. They implemented it pretty well, and no advantages are given (or taken away) to anyone skilled or not.
Comments like these are well thought out, but not for my thread X.X
My issue (AGAIN) is not with the skill ceiling, or lag, or any of that. I even agree with auto mine. I think it's an ok fix (certainly not the best) to the lag issue. Better fixes could include a game countdown or just plain better code.
I have multiple friends who skipped the campaign. And I also have friends who played all the way through and are still stuck in bronze. Even though the campaign explains these things, retaining it is entirely different - you can play the campaign on "casual" and practically win with any strategy at all. You could probably do it with mass scv's if you had enough tenacity.
The point to that is that the campaign doesn't really properly prepare you for multiplayer, you have abnormal situations and units, and the game difficulty is tweaked so weirdly. And even though it SHOULD explain things like constantly training SCVs and rallying workers, bronze players still fail at these core mechanics. It explains attack move, but so many bronze players fail at even this (see Gheed's worker rushing blogs)
Bronzies should already know that 24 workers is the max, because its a loading screen tip And I've explained my sense of economic "micro" and why I believe worker saturation is relevant to the skill ceiling in the game, and I'm too lazy to do it again, look three posts up if you want to see why (at which point you can continue to hold your opinion if you're so inclined. and I have no issue with that)
On September 06 2012 14:11 RaiZ wrote: You're putting a big paragraph as to why it should become clear to make them mine minerals manually because otherwise they'd not understand why they're doing it in the first place.
I really really did my best to not say "F.. off" because all you're trying to explain is already explained to the new players : I call it "Campaign".
Yeah right there.
The worker count again is not a big fucking deal. Seriously, Do you really want every player to count the workers every fucking minute ? I know i don't. If this "not so aesthetic" thing is really bothering you because it doesn't fit with your perfect vision of the elitist game called BW, then lemme say "f. you". Argh.
Stop comparing this game to BW, It's not BW. This game is trying to make all the trivials things called auto mine and mbs to be automatic so that you can focus on a more strategic approach of the game. If, for you, winning the game because you did a perfect split of workers on each 3 bases instead of focusing more on your army, is what you call a win then lemme say you're wrong. I want this game to be awarded solely to the most strategic player, not for the player who has the most apm (And no i don't have low apm in case you're wondering, in fact i just don't fucking care).
Argh. I'll probably get a warning or a perm ban but i don't care. I'm so annoyed at all those whinning bitches. Just please stop whinning for every minor changes there's in the game. Focus on the most importants changes that are the new units.
Ugh. More "not reading"
You could have at LEAST bothered to read the TL;DR instead of not reading the entire thing. I mean, you sound like you read it a little bit, but you clearly missed the point.
TL;DR 1) Auto mine is an acceptable (but poor) fix to the "entering a game late" scenario. 2) Auto mine serves two functions: fixing that bug and helping new players. Tooltips would be a MUCH more useful method of helping new players with the game, and they would be much more all encompassing than simple auto mine. It's a win-win for both new players and "elitists" 3) Worker count per base interrupts with the idea of "microing" your economy. 4) Completely subjectively: I don't like WC/B because it interrupts with the feeling of the game in my opinion. WC/B is much more subject to opinion than my ideas about automine, as I see it. (Need of a tooltip that is) 5) Ultimately I would be ok with both changes going through (particularly WC/B because I still do it badly at masters) but I still dislike the change.
Where in this do I ask for the game to be dumbed down? Where in this do I want the game to be elitist? I do compare to BW, but only to point out that the WoL changes are GOOD because they convert mindless tasks that HAVE to be done to automatically done tasks. Then, I go on to point out that the changes like WC/B are NOT mindless, they require an active micro of your economy, so to speak. I make a comparison like that three posts up or so and won't do it again.
When did I advocate making the game elitist? I want tooltips. I want WC/B in observer mode. I WANT auto-mine in. How does that make the game elitist? PLEASE enlighten me. Or at least please read/understand my post.
The campaign: Already covered. It explains attack move - why do bronze players fail at this (Ex. Gheed's worker rush threads)? It explains building workers - why do bronze-masters players fail at this? (Ex. Common sense). It explains rallying units - why do bronze players fail at this? (Replays, friends, etc.) Because there are no tooltips explaining how they work in the concept of multiplayer! Singleplayer is an entirely different beast from multiplayer, and I don't believe its adequate to explain the game. There are crutches built into singleplayer to make it easier (auto gas refinery, 2 SCVs at a time). It's really unsuited for multiplayer, unless you already know how to play.
But please, continue insulting me without making a single point relevant to my arguments.
It's not really removing a skill away from the game. It allows top-tier gamers to focus on other things, increasing the skill cap in that manner, not things like worker splits or boxing and counting workers.
On September 06 2012 10:52 YyapSsap wrote: Lowering the skill gap yet again.. Mind as well have automated BOs built in while we are at this.
Hell even better just make the game build workers for these people that need auto split and auto mine already ffs.. Pretty much what the game might aswell be heading to. Dont have to worry about splitting, setting rally points for workers, worker saturation (which takes 1 box of minerals and 1 click per gas to see satuation) might aswell leave you to make production structures and have hte computer build a god damn army and have you just control that and forget about macro.
If these features are in HoTS I swear I will find a way to sue Blizzard..your solutions are good though. Its clearly a marketing ploy by blizzard to get more casuals in their game.
On September 06 2012 14:14 Alryk wrote: Then, I go on to point out that the changes like WC/B are NOT mindless, they require an active micro of your economy, so to speak.
Like i said, big fucking deal. Actually i want my apm spent on counting workers, being spent elsehwere. Which is exactly what i said on my previous post :
RaiZ wrote: If, for you, winning the game because you did a perfect split of workers on each 3 bases instead of focusing more on your army, is what you call a win then lemme say you're wrong. I want this game to be awarded solely to the most strategic player, not for the player who has the most apm.
It means i don't want this feature to be observer only, otherwise i'd have to spend every second dragboxing my workers or ctrl leftclicking every base instead of focusing my army more (i.e, templars vs ghost, tanks line with vikings sights, mutas endless harass, and probably more).
Alryk wrote: The campaign: Already covered. It explains attack move - why do bronze players fail at this (Ex. Gheed's worker rush threads)? It explains building workers - why do bronze-masters players fail at this? (Ex. Common sense). It explains rallying units - why do bronze players fail at this? (Replays, friends, etc.) Because there are no tooltips explaining how they work in the concept of multiplayer! Singleplayer is an entirely different beast from multiplayer, and I don't believe its adequate to explain the game. There are crutches built into singleplayer to make it easier (auto gas refinery, 2 SCVs at a time). It's really unsuited for multiplayer, unless you already know how to play.
Wait what ? Are you actually implying there's not enough informations on the campaign in order to play multiplayer ? Right now you're exactly teaching a fish how to swim.
On September 06 2012 14:14 Alryk wrote: Then, I go on to point out that the changes like WC/B are NOT mindless, they require an active micro of your economy, so to speak.
Like i said, big fucking deal. Actually i want my apm spent on counting workers, being spent elsehwere. Which is exactly what i said on my previous post :
RaiZ wrote: If, for you, winning the game because you did a perfect split of workers on each 3 bases instead of focusing more on your army, is what you call a win then lemme say you're wrong. I want this game to be awarded solely to the most strategic player, not for the player who has the most apm.
It means i don't want this feature to be observer only, otherwise i'd have to spend every second dragboxing my workers or ctrl leftclicking every base instead of focusing my army more (i.e, templars vs ghost, tanks line with vikings sights, mutas endless harass, and probably more).
Alryk wrote: The campaign: Already covered. It explains attack move - why do bronze players fail at this (Ex. Gheed's worker rush threads)? It explains building workers - why do bronze-masters players fail at this? (Ex. Common sense). It explains rallying units - why do bronze players fail at this? (Replays, friends, etc.) Because there are no tooltips explaining how they work in the concept of multiplayer! Singleplayer is an entirely different beast from multiplayer, and I don't believe its adequate to explain the game. There are crutches built into singleplayer to make it easier (auto gas refinery, 2 SCVs at a time). It's really unsuited for multiplayer, unless you already know how to play.
Wait what ? Are you actually implying there's not enough informations on the campaign in order to play multiplayer ? Right now you're exactly teaching a fish how to swim.
Dude read my post. I never complained about how they have it implemented. And "big fucking deal" nice way of iterating something that plenty of people have said without cursing, and in far more meaningful and knowledgeable ways too. That's your opinion, mine differs, if you dislike my evidence or refuse to read it we will just agree to disagree. You think that you shouldn't have to spend time managing your economy (along with many others); I do (along with many others) so we will have to agree to disagree. Hopefully respectfully, but you kind of already threw that out the window. I stated my opinions, you were more than welcome to do so with yours, but plenty of people have gotten across the exact same point as you without being insulting/cussing over it, I'm not sure why you feel the need to be different other than blind hate for a topic you aren't understanding properly.
I didn't say the campaign does not have enough information, I pointed out that the campaign actually explains this information, yet we still see people struggling with it because they don't retain it after playing through the campaign once. How can I be implying the campaign doesnt explain things when I explicitly say what it explains?
Do you think that the campaign prepares you for a suitable multiplayer environment, with its tweakable units, casual setting (50% unit HP) and random settings of starting points? Yes it explains basic concepts, but there are very few campaign maps that are like the multiplayer 1v1 scenario.
You are missing the point. We're BOTH arguing for a "more casual/easier to learn" game, just in different ways. But you seem hell bent on insulting this made up image of me touting the necessities of a BW-elitist like game.
Edit: AND, your example of what you think is "microing economy" I.E. splitting 3 units at the beginning of the game, is terrible and the exact opposite of what I've been getting at all along, but you refuse to read my proper example of it and addressing THAT.
If Blizzard really implemented this automine shit in response to the fact that people with lower tier computers enter games late, that's probably literally the worst example of problem solving I've ever seen out of Blizzard as a game company. I mean, really, that's just incredibly lazy. Off the top of my head I can think of like 10 different better ways to solve that problem.
When WoL started, I discovered TL and quickly realized, how much feedback is there and wondered why Blizzard consistently refuses to hear it and was angry at Blizzard. Slowly I realized, that 99 % of the feedbackis at least as stupid as this thread and became very, very glad that Blizzard refuses to hear it (there are bright expections, such as better unit movement, fewer resources per base, etc., but they are very, very rare) .
Why is this stupid? Because it is bitching for the sake of bitching. Someone once convinced the TL userbase that it is good for a game to be "difficult". Most of the people have no idea what does it mean, but it they feel better if they deffend a "good thing". The big blob of text in the OP is just made up arguments in a desperate attempt to make it look "deep", but it does nto make it any better.
Automine at the beginning of the game does not change shit about the difficulty of the game. It has absolutely no effect on anything. It just removes one stupidly boring action that you had to do at the beginning of every game, no matter what. Most of the whiners probably have dead-end jobs that consist of nothing but boring, repeated tasks, so they are conditioned to accept them. But I hate boring, repeated tasks and I believe that anyone with a half of brain should do as well.
So If you really want to micro your workers, nobody prevents you from doing that. You can even try to fight the AI split, if you think you are better! But please, stop ruining good things for the others.
Fine, let's do this way, you can't argue I didn't read your post :
On September 06 2012 06:20 Alryk wrote: Introduction
First of all, I am immensely enjoying the HOTS beta, and I am in no way taking this for granted or anything. Secondly, I would like to say that I amaware that these functions can be “disabled” through the options. The point of this post is why Blizzard is attempting to make the game easier (in my eyes) and also why they are going the wrong way about it.
The Changes For anybody who hasn’t played the heart of the swarm beta yet, there is a new function that automatically sends your initial six workers to mine minerals. Essentially, it boxes your workers, and right clicks on the middle mineral patch and they all get to work. I believe that Blizzard’s intention in this is to show newer players the concept/idea in the beginning of the game. Much like the auto-mining and unlimited selection implemented with Wings of Liberty, it could be argued that a function like this is intended to make the game more available for newer players, and easier to understand.
This is your own opinion. As a master player and i'm pretty sure i don't speak for myself alone, this change is heartly welcomed. I can perfectly split all my workers up to 3 differents patches but it doesn't matter, because it's not gamebreaking at all. This new way means that there's no advantages / disadvantages for every player that fucked the split up or that got a lag. It's common sense to have them automine right away.
The second change is the “worker counts” per base. Basically, if you have 14 workers mining minerals, then it displays “Worker Count: 14/24” over your Nexus/CC/Hatchery. And for Gas, it displays “Workers: 1/3” over each individual gas. This change by itself isn’t as big of a deal as the initial change, but I will try and address it as well.
The “Idea” behind the changes Blizzard wants to make the game easier for casual players. This is evident with the relative dumbing down of mechanics compared to Brood War. By queuing workers to go mine for you, I think that Blizzard intends to lead you into the idea that “oh, my workers need to mine minerals.” This in itself is a good idea, but I think it is badly implemented (my solution later).
Once again, that's your own opinion. I used to play bw and i had no problem with it. This automine thing has been welcomed too because it allows you to focus your apm on something else.
With the worker count tooltip, blizzard wants to give you the idea of “oh, I shouldn’t have more than 24 workers.” If you know that you have 25/24, it seems reasonable for somebody who has never even played the game to say “one worker is going to waste.” This idea is to help lower level players manage their economies – now you won’t get bronze players who know how to produce SCVs, but have 37 on one base, and 4 on the other. While this idea isn’t necessarily flawed, and it could even be relevant in the game, I’m not sure it has a place either.
The Inherent Problem (As I see it) So, we want to make the game easier for new players. We can do this by sending their workers to mine right? I disagree. There are two main problems with this. First, a new player needs to understand how their workers are getting to the minerals. Let’s think about (in Wings of Liberty) the actions that need to be performed in the first five seconds of the game.
1) Send workers to the minerals to mine 2) Queue a worker to build 3) Rally your nexus to the minerals
Now, think about what is inherent to an RTS. Even somebody who has never played Starcraft II before should know that at the heart of any strategy game is the need to obtain resources and turn those resources into an army. Therefore, it should make sense to (at some point) tell your workers to mine. The hardest part should be realizing that those 6 little bugs/machines/people are workers. But that’s different. This information should be inherent to anybody trying out RTS. Taking that assumption is the basis of my post.
Now, let’s think about what is NOT inherent. Rallying workers. Even if you know that you need to gather resources, not as many people may gather that you need to choose your nexus and right click on the minerals. And even worse, the new change may make this problem even harder to understand. If your first six workers go straight to mine, a new player might assume that this is always the case (rational to me at least). This means they should not need to set a rally! So they build there worker, and all of a sudden it pops out and doesn’t do anything, and they are confused. + Show Spoiler +
Spoiling out because it's not needed/overblown on second glance. Not only do they not know why their worker is moving, they don’t know how to get it to the minerals (this has already been done for them). They know they need to gather resources, but they have not seen that they need to actually make workers go to the mineral line. So: the worker automine causes two problems. First, it performs a function that should be basic knowledge to somebody playing a RTS (I need to gather resources). Secondly, it removes the “idea” that the player needs to rally workers to the mineral line. It creates the impression that this is automatically done.
NOW………..
We get to the mineral count/base idea. I think this idea could work. As a masters player who sucks at it, I actually like the idea of it. But I don’t think it should be in the game. This is why: The majority of information in the HUD of Starcraft II is graphical, not text based. You have a minimap. You have unit portraits to count, not “10 zealots, 5 sentries, stalker.” Fungal growth has a portrait and a tooltip, but not many people actually bother using the tooltip, they know what the spell is by the picture. And in the idea of grid layout for hotkeys, the spells are arranged in such a way that they form a logical “grid” – all graphical representations. So in a game where we have all of our information “outside the game” displayed in a graphical way, we now have information being displayed to us in a textual way. There isn’t anything necessarily wrong with this, and this is where my opinion is much less logical/rational and more a matter of consistency, but I believe that the “Worker count per base” idea interferes with the consistency of the game and just does not fit into the general flow of Starcraft II. The information is just projected incorrectly.
My Solutions
Now let’s revisit the core problems. We know that (if you take my logic) the automine interferes with both knowledge of needing to rally troops, and the idea of how to get workers to mine. Additionally, the idea they’re trying to implement is something that is much more ingrained into the idea of an RTS than say, rallying troops. So, my solution is this: Instead of making units automine, require players to send their own workers to the minerals. Additionally, automatically rally the Nexus/Command Center/Hatchery to the minerals. + Show Spoiler +
This is irrelevant because it's already in the game
How many players in bronze-silver do you see without worker rallies? I have seen plenty of games (from my friends and otherwise) where they don’t rally new workers to minerals, nor do they know how to set a rally. By automatically rallying your workers, the new players can be aware that newly created workers are rallied to minerals when they see a worker “walk” to the mineral patch. This doesn’t affect anybody over gold in any way whatsoever, and I think it’s an excellent way to cover one of the crutches/confusions of being new.
Like i said, everything is explained in the campaign. After that it's common sense. And then it's all about getting it in the most efficient way which is exactly what you're doing as long as you're playing more and more games. This whole paragraph is just completely irrelevant. Seeing bronze players still doing the same errors is not because blizz did a poor job but because the players aren't putting enough efforts in understanding the game, or worse, they just don't care and simply want to have fun
Additionally, implement tooltips seen in dota games like League of Legends. Think of the champion selection screen – if you are new, it tells you how to choose a champion, how to lock in, select summoner spells etc. These tooltips, most importantly, provide no in game differences/advantages to players, rather they teach you how to play. The tooltips in the loading screen aren’t really enough. Blizzard has already done it with wow, they can easily have it enabled in Starcraft II. At the beginning of the game, a simple “Left click to box your workers, and right click on minerals to make them mine” would suffice. Additionally, as soon as they click on the Nexus, a tooltip that says “your nexus has been automatically rallied to the minerals. Newly trained workers will automatically mine. To re-rally your units, do this…” would be possible.
I'm not familiar with LoL, just with WoW, but even with the tooltips it was far better to experiment it yourself. But why not ? As long as i can disable it, just do what you please.
This makes the game (in my opinion) even more user-friendly than the current implementation, while being non-obtrusive to better players. It also provides no tangible in-game benefit to players who have it enabled versus disabled. Yes, you can disable the auto-mine and worker count per base, but doing so (in a way) can disadvantage you. I don’t think you should have options that should hold inherent advantages/disadvantages.
Or maybe not, for the players who aren't lagging it's roughly the same. Either way it's not gamebreaking at all, therefore not a big deal to have this option on or not.
Worker Count per Base fix
As for fixing the worker count per base, I think it should be used as an observer tooltip only. The observer function of the game exists to make casters capable of analyzing the game in an effective, and engaging way. And it is textually based. You can see the number of workers, total income, workers lost etc. All of these are effective tools for casters to analyze and illustrate the advantage/disadvantage that one particular player is at.
That’s why I think the “Worker count per base” should belong here. It allows a caster to say “MarineKing has 22 workers at his main base, but only 10 at his expansion. To maximize his economy, he should have 16 at both bases.”
Why are these different from auto mine and unit select?
There are differences, again in my opinion, between these changes and the changes with Wings of Liberty. Wings of Liberty removed mindless mechanical things like telling each individual worker to mine, and have 12 army hotkeys that all needed to be moved at once. Those are sensible changes (whether or not they dilute the game too much is a different matter and not one I want to have discussed) that simply remove “mindless” mechanical things. Being able to automatically mine minerals IS mindless, but it is also the POINT of a strategy game. There isn’t anything to do at the beginning of the game, so it isn’t something to worry about. Knowing how many workers you have per base is NOT mindless, and that’s why it should not be provided. Learning to manage your economies is a skillset that must be developed. Anybody can mindlessly tell workers to mine minerals (like in BW) so this was removed. The only prerequisite to doing this is the APM necessary for it. Managing an economy properly is a mental aspect of the game that requires you to learn the optimal saturation for a base, and then using that to gain an advantage. Unlike no automine in brood war, it requires a conscious, active thought process throughout the course of the game, constrained by more than just APM.
Like i said in the previous posts, i disagree. I want it on in game because it saves time to count workers. Having to drag the workers every minute to be sure you're efficiently mining is just stupid.
I stopped here because after that it was a conclusion that weren't much to say. Hope it helps.
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.<
i didnt have NEAR as much love for sc2 as i did for bw, even though i am better at sc2 than i am at bw. now seeing the changes their making to hots, i am not sure how this will affect my love for the game. this upcoming expansion might be the make or break for me.
A different solution to all this would be to, for example, forcibly disable these faciliations of macro as soon as the player enters Diamond-Masters, and he/she could be considered playing the game as a sport rather than a timekiller. (I don't know if this has already been suggested)
I agree that these changes, when implemented for all levels of skill, remove yet another element that keeps SC2 the most synapse-frying and entertaining game of our time. Atleast let the top level of play remain what it is today.
Casual players need this help to focus on the game and the strategies. The pros allready do this "perfectly" and gain little, while the casuals can enjoy the game more.
I have lost tons of games due to bad worker micro and this is really a welcome addition that helps casuals without affecting pro-players very much.
I agree the worker saturation per base is kind of stupid and unnecessary. I mean, how hard is it to box all your workers and count how many rows of 8's you have.
So what's the problem with having it, then? It benefits new players and in no way hinders professional players. Everybody wins.
I disagree 100% that it helps new players in the slightest. How does it?
I mean literally the very first custom game you make, you may learn that you have to send those worker guys to those blue crystal things. I'm pretty sure you'll pick that up anyway. There are enough resources / tutorials available.
So once you've got the actual box and move command down, what is it helping?
No, it's not a HUGE change, but it's just one more thing that is done for you instead of you having to do yourself. If you change all the small things to be automated, you don't have much of a game left.
On September 06 2012 16:25 opisska wrote: When WoL started, I discovered TL and quickly realized, how much feedback is there and wondered why Blizzard consistently refuses to hear it and was angry at Blizzard. Slowly I realized, that 99 % of the feedbackis at least as stupid as this thread and became very, very glad that Blizzard refuses to hear it (there are bright expections, such as better unit movement, fewer resources per base, etc., but they are very, very rare) .
Why is this stupid? Because it is bitching for the sake of bitching. Someone once convinced the TL userbase that it is good for a game to be "difficult". Most of the people have no idea what does it mean, but it they feel better if they deffend a "good thing". The big blob of text in the OP is just made up arguments in a desperate attempt to make it look "deep", but it does nto make it any better.
Automine at the beginning of the game does not change shit about the difficulty of the game. It has absolutely no effect on anything. It just removes one stupidly boring action that you had to do at the beginning of every game, no matter what. Most of the whiners probably have dead-end jobs that consist of nothing but boring, repeated tasks, so they are conditioned to accept them. But I hate boring, repeated tasks and I believe that anyone with a half of brain should do as well.
So If you really want to micro your workers, nobody prevents you from doing that. You can even try to fight the AI split, if you think you are better! But please, stop ruining good things for the others.
Splendid argument! Nothing better to support your point than ridiculing those whom you disagree with. Your logic seems to be that checking worker saturation constantly is a boring repetitive task, which I guess I could agree with. But if you actually look at the game nearly everything considered in isolation is a boring, repetitive task. By the same logic I could say that the game should undertake many other tasks for me because they are not particularly enjoyable (mineral boosting, mineral pairing, building workers etc.)
If you want a game that is purely made up of strategy without any mechanics then perhaps you should consider playing chess.
There is a large and compelling reason for the worker count per base addition. Zergs were disadvantaged in wings of liberty because their workers are consumed for buildings. This forced zergs to spend more time than the other races adjusting worker counts. I agree the worker counter feels gimicky but it fixes a straight up macro imbalance.
On September 06 2012 17:31 Pabs wrote: There is a large and compelling reason for the worker count per base addition. Zergs were disadvantaged in wings of liberty because their workers are consumed for buildings. This forced zergs to spend more time than the other races adjusting worker counts. I agree the worker counter feels gimicky but it fixes a straight up macro imbalance.
How so? How does looking at a base, seeing how many workers are there and making a learned, skilled decision regarding whether this base is saturated or not change if you've used some drones for buildings or not? Many factors affect whether you are able to competently saturate a base, including harassment - killed workers & running workers, repairs, maynard transfers, pulling workers for an attack etc.
Point being, whether you've used some workers for buildings or not, you're looking at the same mineral line and making the same judgements as other races.
Furthermore, I don't think they key is to just flatten everything out to make all races "even" or "balanced". I think balance is better achieved through each race having their own disadvantages and advantages. This actually adds some skill and unique talent requirements for each race.
I don't know has somebody already came up with this, but I have a solution to the lag that may occur in the begining of the game. In my solution you dont need to make the workers automine and it will even make the game feel more like esports.
My solution: At the begining of the game the time would "freeze" and no actions could be done. The lag that some players may get would occur now. After the begining there would be a countdown like in sports in general. So it would go like:
3... 2... 1...
And then the player could make a woker and send the 6 first workers to mine and split them.
I think the start of the game is part of the game and the esports. Like in the start of a sprint the countdown is big part of the whole thing. Imagine if they could fix the sprint in a way, that everybody would start running at the exact time X.
Making a good start recuires concentration, good reflexes and accuracy. Please Blizzard don't take it away.
On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
It ONLY helps lower league players? How can you not see the problem in that? Counting workers and moving them around is a small edge you gain, that starts showing up to masters league and then it vanishes because everyone does it, yes.
You know we could say stalkers should auto-blink themselves, it would only help lower league players anyway, top korean protosses wouldn't lose anything..they already have insane blink micro.
Once you start removing these small things the GAP between lower league players and higher league players becomes smaller.
On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
It ONLY helps lower league players? How can you not see the problem in that? Counting workers and moving them around is a small edge you gain, that starts showing up to masters league and then it vanishes because everyone does it, yes.
You know we could say stalkers should auto-blink themselves, it would only help lower league players anyway, top korean protosses wouldn't lose anything..they already have insane blink micro.
Once you start removing these small things the GAP between lower league players and higher league players becomes smaller.
And as I stated previously, it is most definitely not a trivial thing to have a few workers mining sub-optimally. It is ~30 minerals a minute lost, which is a huge deal. Even if it is true that everyone who is masters and above can do this well, I don't think that it is true that they will achieve this perfectly all of the time, even when under great pressure. And even if it is not necessarily something that separates players at the highest level in of itself, the fact that you do it in conjunction with many other activities means you must have great multitasking and APM to play the game. Its not like in any other sport trivial things are dumbed down at the highest level to make things easier for new people approaching the game. In fact, in many cases amateur competitions will have different rules to a game to be more accommodating to those who are less skilled or less experienced than those at the highest level. I think if people are really intent of having this counter in place to aid lower level players then the same approach should be taken, have such training wheels in place for those who play at the lowest level.
I wonder why something like an ingame count down or read set go isn't implemented instead. In fighting games we hear something like Ready - ACTION! In some of these the player can position their fighter. In this someone could set up hotkeys and waypoints for any RTS game. Now the game is about your choices rather than just the actions and load speed.
The sad part is that SC2 isn't supplying the player with fascinating choices from game start if this is truely an issue and that is by no means a success.
While I don't like the idea of auto-mine (aside from laggy starts...but unfortunately lag IS going to make the game harder so..kinda silly to try and "fix" lag by automatically doing things for the player), I don't really think that it is going to HURT new players to the game..new players are new players and they are going to figure things out one way or another. I didn't know immediately that I could rally my base to the mineral patch when SC2 came out, how is adding auto mine going to make you suddenly not be able to realize you can rally workers? It wasn't obvious without it and it won't be obvious with it. It changes nothing in that regard. I personally don't like the idea because it takes away any TINY advantage you might get from splitting workers quickly and accurately and producing that worker really fast.
SOLUTION IDEA:
Allow this to ONLY be available to players in Bronze League
On September 06 2012 18:47 kmillz wrote: While I don't like the idea of auto-mine (aside from laggy starts...but unfortunately lag IS going to make the game harder so..kinda silly to try and "fix" lag by automatically doing things for the player), I don't really think that it is going to HURT new players to the game..new players are new players and they are going to figure things out one way or another. I didn't know immediately that I could rally my base to the mineral patch when SC2 came out, how is adding auto mine going to make you suddenly not be able to realize you can rally workers? It wasn't obvious without it and it won't be obvious with it. It changes nothing in that regard. I personally don't like the idea because it takes away any TINY advantage you might get from splitting workers quickly and accurately and producing that worker really fast.
SOLUTION IDEA:
Allow this to ONLY be available to players in Bronze League
I did actually think about this too. If you can't even get the basics down, like sending your workers to mine, you're going to end up in bronze, so it would be logical to turn this on there.
There are no circumstances where that worker count tooltip should be on, as that's simply and directly removing a skill element from the game.
I think the solution to the automine-lag issue would be to simply wait on the loading screen a little longer and make sure a few more things are loaded / optimise it before sending players into the game.
However the "automine-lag issue" that people are now discussing is not an issue. It never was an issue throughout BW and SC2. If you are lagging that much, just the start won't save you. Not that you could lag enough to make a huge difference at this point without just disconnecting.
That blizzard add feature like automine, auto-rally and worker count per base means that they downplay economy management. Economy management is at the very heart of strategy. That is what make it so disheartening when they just diss the very core to any strategy and basically saying it is trivial. Yes, it can be hard and it should be hard if you want a competitive scene at all. Now the only way you can differentiate in economy management is when you put down your geyser and maynarding and how many workers you maynard.
Changing it so you can see how many workers that mine at your base like geyers in WoL is a much better way to fix it. Then you can have a tooltip or whatever saying that "24 workers is sufficient to saturate a base".
On September 06 2012 18:47 kmillz wrote: While I don't like the idea of auto-mine (aside from laggy starts...but unfortunately lag IS going to make the game harder so..kinda silly to try and "fix" lag by automatically doing things for the player), I don't really think that it is going to HURT new players to the game..new players are new players and they are going to figure things out one way or another. I didn't know immediately that I could rally my base to the mineral patch when SC2 came out, how is adding auto mine going to make you suddenly not be able to realize you can rally workers? It wasn't obvious without it and it won't be obvious with it. It changes nothing in that regard. I personally don't like the idea because it takes away any TINY advantage you might get from splitting workers quickly and accurately and producing that worker really fast.
SOLUTION IDEA:
Allow this to ONLY be available to players in Bronze League
I did actually think about this too. If you can't even get the basics down, like sending your workers to mine, you're going to end up in bronze, so it would be logical to turn this on there.
There are no circumstances where that worker count tooltip should be on, as that's simply and directly removing a skill element from the game.
I think the solution to the automine-lag issue would be to simply wait on the loading screen a little longer and make sure a few more things are loaded / optimise it before sending players into the game.
However the "automine-lag issue" that people are now discussing is not an issue. It never was an issue throughout BW and SC2. If you are lagging that much, just the start won't save you. Not that you could lag enough to make a huge difference at this point without just disconnecting.
I agree, worker count tool tip too much. auto-mine too much. starcraft 2 already eliminates an incredibly large amount of the micro required from BW, it doesn't need more simplifying. If you lag it is not the communities problem that your computer/connection are lacking, sorry, but I remember playing BW on 56k, it was rough but I still won games and didnt need the game to "micro" for me while the game is starting!
EDIT: Also, if my graphic settings are too high, I lag and it becomes difficult to play the game, not just send workers to mineral line...so yeah, lag is an issue you need to solve on your own because its going to hinder your entire games performance alot more than those extra 50-150 minerals you lost.
The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. This is not fucking BW - the UI is not obtusive and annoying. It is meant to provide information that a player can easily access. I mean christ - you can click on an opponents unit and determine their upgrade value as well as their health and their composition. Why exactly have you suddenly promoted COUNTING to a skill that only gosu gamers have?
Last I checked, counting was something babies learned.
On September 06 2012 19:36 Evangelist wrote: The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. This is not fucking BW - the UI is not obtusive and annoying. It is meant to provide information that a player can easily access. I mean christ - you can click on an opponents unit and determine their upgrade value as well as their health and their composition. Why exactly have you suddenly promoted COUNTING to a skill that only gosu gamers have?
Last I checked, counting was something babies learned.
Every second is important when players are performing between 150-250 actions per minute, and if it takes you a couple less seconds to identify the exact number of units, yes it DOES change the game at high levels. Looking at your units and identifying how many there are based on a picture may take one player a second, it could take another 3-4 seconds or longer, but why don't we just let blizzard hold our hands through every process of the game. Next they should start having options to check off whether you want your buildings to automatically start units or create add-ons or research upgrades as soon as they are finished? Babies count. Wow. That is an impressive arguement for your point.
1) it removes a skill, therefore a degree of interaction with the game, 2) it is too forgiving. Consider that player who has unwittingly forgot to place a third worker in each of his vespene geysers. " -Gosugamers-
On September 06 2012 19:36 Evangelist wrote: The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. This is not fucking BW - the UI is not obtusive and annoying. It is meant to provide information that a player can easily access. I mean christ - you can click on an opponents unit and determine their upgrade value as well as their health and their composition. Why exactly have you suddenly promoted COUNTING to a skill that only gosu gamers have?
Last I checked, counting was something babies learned.
Every second is important when players are performing between 150-250 actions per minute, and if it takes you a couple less seconds to identify the exact number of units, yes it DOES change the game at high levels. Looking at your units and identifying how many there are based on a picture may take one player a second, it could take another 3-4 seconds or longer, but why don't we just let blizzard hold our hands through every process of the game. Next they should start having options to check off whether you want your buildings to automatically start units or create add-ons or research upgrades as soon as they are finished? Babies count. Wow. That is an impressive arguement for your point.
If you are at 250 actions per minute, counting how many scvs you have at each base requires approximately 0.24 seconds per check. You add another action involved in jumping between bases. Since pro gamers prioritise really heavily (the macro cycle), all they are doing is boxing the mineral line and counting how many lines are filled. When you get to 32 workers, the mineral line is VISIBLY over-saturated, as in, you don't even need to count.
This change simply removes the pointless boxing and counting. The actual check is still necessary which is the important part. The transferring workers, the building extra bases, all of that is still necessary. You remove 1 action for every base check. Nothing else.
You are arguing over a maximum of 8 actions per minute.
1) it removes a skill, therefore a degree of interaction with the game, 2) it is too forgiving. Consider that player who has unwittingly forgot to place a third worker in each of his vespene geysers. " -Gosugamers-
1. It removes an action. The skill itself is the same. A bronzie is still going to ask "wtf is this counter". 2. The counter for the vespene geysers is already there. It's on the vespene geyser. I click it automatically.
You people really don't have any arguments. You just want to complain for the sake of complaining. If you want to complain, I recommend you focus on the warhound which has broken every terran matchup in beta, cheers. Not crap like this which only benefits bronze leaguers and just removes a few actions per minute for everyone else.
On September 06 2012 19:36 Evangelist wrote: The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. This is not fucking BW - the UI is not obtusive and annoying. It is meant to provide information that a player can easily access. I mean christ - you can click on an opponents unit and determine their upgrade value as well as their health and their composition. Why exactly have you suddenly promoted COUNTING to a skill that only gosu gamers have?
Last I checked, counting was something babies learned.
Yeah you didn't really think about this did you? Well done though, you've defined counting. The clear point, which you did miss, is that you can't exactly count your workers quickly and efficiently straight off. It involves being able to have good judgement, and good knowledge of how much you've been producing workers.
If you don't understand the point in the slightest, it's probably not best to write condescending comments insulting other peoples opinions.
"Counting" hasn't suddenly become anything special in regards to change. If ANY additional changes were added that remove skill elements from the game, people would take issue with it. Like auto-mining...
On September 06 2012 19:57 Evangelist wrote:
1. It removes an action. The skill itself is the same. A bronzie is still going to ask "wtf is this counter". 2. The counter for the vespene geysers is already there. It's on the vespene geyser. I click it automatically.
You people really don't have any arguments. You just want to complain for the sake of complaining. If you want to complain, I recommend you focus on the warhound which has broken every terran matchup in beta, cheers. Not crap like this which only benefits bronze leaguers and just removes a few actions per minute for everyone else.
Well "us people" do have an argument, and it's quite clearly presented. Just because you require additional help to play the game, doesn't make your opinion the only valid one. To say people are complaining for the sake of it is pathetic. Accept people have differing opinions or I guess don't bother posting.
In an attempt to actually explain the points though... Small actions like this are what people enjoy. There's no difference between this and numerous other repetitive actions. It does not help bronze who've played more than one game in the slightest, meaning it's very simply, a part of gameplay that is automated. Which begs the question 'why'?
You even described yourself the process of checking for mineral line saturation (the issue being under-saturation as opposed to over-saturation for lower level players). This is a skill. It is one that anyone can improve and is quite easily measurable. All this change does is remove having that skill as an advantage. No comparisons need be made to any other action or any other change. Simply right here, right now, it's removing something that good players have learned. If you're a lower level player who's bad at it, that's fine. You'll improve I guess. You'll be facing people of equal skill until you do so.
Microing is quite hard too for lower level players, why not automate it? Why not have a "constantly make workers" button while you're at it?
So you agree it removes a skill, yet still argue that it is a necessary change to the game? Why is removing a skill necessary at all, when boxing and counting has never been an issue before?
On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
It ONLY helps lower league players? How can you not see the problem in that? Counting workers and moving them around is a small edge you gain, that starts showing up to masters league and then it vanishes because everyone does it, yes.
You know we could say stalkers should auto-blink themselves, it would only help lower league players anyway, top korean protosses wouldn't lose anything..they already have insane blink micro.
Once you start removing these small things the GAP between lower league players and higher league players becomes smaller.
Slippery slope slippery slope slippery slope.
It's like two/three clicks at the beginning of the game. It's weird and unnecessary and maybe it is indicative of a larger issue with Blizzard's idea for the game but of itself it doesn't lower the gap between lower and higher league players by even the smallest noticeable amount.
HAHAHA oh my god. You platin players, aka "those who perfected minor things like worker splitting for several months and now think this has a huge effect" or "I can't understand why I'm still plat, my enemy can't even worker split" simply don't understand that:
1) It doesn't take skill to split workers 2) It's a minor thing, that didn't win one game ever 3) It's just a change of fairness for players with starting lag
Seriously.. complain about other things in this game. It has more than enough flaws for you eternal QQers, but this small little change, that take away a bit of your elitism ("I'm a worker splitting, worker counting gosu. Still plat though, enemies cheese constantly T___T") is not one of it's problems.
On September 06 2012 20:47 lolnice wrote: HAHAHA oh my god. You platin players, aka "those who perfected minor things like worker splitting for several months and now think this has a huge effect" or "I can't understand why I'm still plat, my enemy can't even worker split" simply don't understand that:
1) It doesn't take skill to split workers 2) It's a minor thing, that didn't win one game ever 3) It's just a change of fairness for players with starting lag
Seriously.. complain about other things in this game. It has more than enough flaws for you eternal QQers, but this small little change, that take away a bit of your elitism ("I'm a worker splitting, worker counting gosu. Still plat though, enemies cheese constantly T___T") is not one of it's problems.
Idiot.
The fact that you don't understand the importance of optimal worker saturations brings your own intelligence into question, as does your apparent need to insult people that you don't agree with. How do you even know what league we are in?
Its not elitism, I just would like the game to be a display of skill, and few other things display a players skill than them just having more units than their opponent due to perfect macro. Sure, worker saturation may be an unexciting thing from a viewer point of view, but so are things like mineral pairing. It would be ridiculous to suggest to take the feature of mineral pairing out of the game to make it easier for lower level players to achieve optimal mining.
This entire change is to help those that load into the game early. This is not reflective of "trying to remove extra actions". Some people load into the game a few seconds after the game actually starts and that sets them behind. Now with the actions being server-side and not reliant on the player's computer or network the game will start out more fairly.
Stop talking about how this will make it easier for noobies and how they're making the game easy because it isn't about that.
On September 06 2012 17:07 exog wrote: I totally disagree with OP.
Casual players need this help to focus on the game and the strategies. The pros allready do this "perfectly" and gain little, while the casuals can enjoy the game more.
I have lost tons of games due to bad worker micro and this is really a welcome addition that helps casuals without affecting pro-players very much.
Great job blizzard!
Wait you realize my post was about helping new players learn the game in a more effective way than we currently have, right?
As far as worker micro - doesn't that mean you should properly learn to micro your workers? (An opinion but oh well)
On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing.
It ONLY helps lower league players? How can you not see the problem in that? Counting workers and moving them around is a small edge you gain, that starts showing up to masters league and then it vanishes because everyone does it, yes.
You know we could say stalkers should auto-blink themselves, it would only help lower league players anyway, top korean protosses wouldn't lose anything..they already have insane blink micro.
Once you start removing these small things the GAP between lower league players and higher league players becomes smaller.
Slippery slope slippery slope slippery slope.
It's like two/three clicks at the beginning of the game. It's weird and unnecessary and maybe it is indicative of a larger issue with Blizzard's idea for the game but of itself it doesn't lower the gap between lower and higher league players by even the smallest noticeable amount.
I was reffering to the saturation counter that is present on the main buildings..
And that definetely lowers the gap. Atm, in WoL you gotta either go select everything fast - count the workers and re-arrange them if need be. Or you do it by feeling which is what most pros do, you gauge how many you need and send them around. Removing this by having a number counter that does this for you basically does lessen the gap between worse and better players in fact. If you don't see it I don't know what to say.
Having for example 5 scvs in surplus in a mineral field is a BIG waste, it's 250 minerals + 5 supply + time lost on other patches, which is about ~150 minerals/min IIRC.
Now fast-forward to HotS, everyone has perfect saturation everywhere and they're being effective - an element of the game removed because Blizzard for some reason wants us to be lazy fucks.
On September 06 2012 16:25 opisska wrote: When WoL started, I discovered TL and quickly realized, how much feedback is there and wondered why Blizzard consistently refuses to hear it and was angry at Blizzard. Slowly I realized, that 99 % of the feedbackis at least as stupid as this thread and became very, very glad that Blizzard refuses to hear it (there are bright expections, such as better unit movement, fewer resources per base, etc., but they are very, very rare) .
Why is this stupid? Because it is bitching for the sake of bitching. Someone once convinced the TL userbase that it is good for a game to be "difficult". Most of the people have no idea what does it mean, but it they feel better if they deffend a "good thing". The big blob of text in the OP is just made up arguments in a desperate attempt to make it look "deep", but it does nto make it any better.
Automine at the beginning of the game does not change shit about the difficulty of the game. It has absolutely no effect on anything. It just removes one stupidly boring action that you had to do at the beginning of every game, no matter what. Most of the whiners probably have dead-end jobs that consist of nothing but boring, repeated tasks, so they are conditioned to accept them. But I hate boring, repeated tasks and I believe that anyone with a half of brain should do as well.
So If you really want to micro your workers, nobody prevents you from doing that. You can even try to fight the AI split, if you think you are better! But please, stop ruining good things for the others.
Wait, so what you're saying is you didn't read my post?
Bolded in the hopes that people who won't read my OP will read this. I'm not advocating making them game more difficult. I have NO issue with automine itself. I recognized that it helps lag, and even can help lower players. I'm actually advocating making the game even EASIER for new players by implementing tooltips. HOW on earth is that "bitching for the sake of bitching? Please enlighten me. Further, how is it me feeling better if I defend a "good thing" like the difficulty of the game?
When did I complain about auto mine making the game too easy? When did I say that auto mine was a boring and repetitive task? And in fact I've detailed several times why I believe WC/B is the exact opposite, and I won't do so again. We have different opinions here and if you don't want to discuss mine we'll just agree to disagree.
I never said I want to remove automine really, I just said there is a problem in that the function it is trying to perform for newer players would be better served by something like ingame tooltips.
It's depressing when so many people blindly think that I'm bitching about how the game is too easy, when I'm asking for the exact opposite.
On September 06 2012 19:36 Evangelist wrote: The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. This is not fucking BW - the UI is not obtusive and annoying. It is meant to provide information that a player can easily access. I mean christ - you can click on an opponents unit and determine their upgrade value as well as their health and their composition. Why exactly have you suddenly promoted COUNTING to a skill that only gosu gamers have?
Last I checked, counting was something babies learned.
Why is it then, that people from bronze all the way up to grandmaster fail at the "fundamental" skill of counting workers and managing the workers per base? We can SEE that even progamers struggle with optimal saturation sometimes.
You don't increase the skill cap of a game by removing one active APM component (thinking and making decisions about worker saturation) so that they can use that APM elsewhere - that's keeping the skill cap the same. The skill cap is raised when somebody has the ability to do all that we previously thought was possible, AND micro their economy, AND do something new. That's when the skill cap is raised. (Sadly this is an opinion and most people (staboteur is an awesome dis-example) seem to fail at expressing their opinions when they conflict with mine. I'd love to be proven wrong though.)
@Railz (sorry if i mispelled)
This is your own opinion. As a master player and i'm pretty sure i don't speak for myself alone, this change is heartly welcomed. I can perfectly split all my workers up to 3 differents patches but it doesn't matter, because it's not gamebreaking at all. This new way means that there's no advantages / disadvantages for every player that fucked the split up or that got a lag. It's common sense to have them automine right away.
You realize I said the EXACT same thing right? Not once in those paragraphs that you quoted did I actually even SAY an opinion. Other than the fact that I am enjoying the beta, and I believe that blizzard put the function in to help newer players (AND I acknowledged the lag issue already). So I'm stating facts (unless you disagree that its helping new players, but you don't)
Once again, that's your own opinion. I used to play bw and i had no problem with it. This automine thing has been welcomed too because it allows you to focus your apm on something else.
I never debated automine. I like the WoL automine. I like the HOTS automine. You are still completely failing at understanding the point. automine in the sense of WoL perfectly performs the function it was intended to do - removing a mindless action that no matter what HAS to be performed so you can focus on something else. Again, we agree, but you don't see it.
Like i said, everything is explained in the campaign. After that it's common sense. And then it's all about getting it in the most efficient way which is exactly what you're doing as long as you're playing more and more games. This whole paragraph is just completely irrelevant. Seeing bronze players still doing the same errors is not because blizz did a poor job but because the players aren't putting enough efforts in understanding the game, or worse, they just don't care and simply want to have fun
Yes, everything is explained in the campaign. But seeing it once is not enough. We know this because bronze players fail at fundamentals that they should have learned and intuitively known throughout the campaign. If you were teaching somebody a normal sport, say baseball, basketball, or even swimming, would you walk them through it once, and then leave them to it, expecting to grasp all of the fundamentals? Or would you provide tips throughout their learning process, coaches to help them gain knowledge (tooltips), until they have it sufficiently memorized (gold ish)?
If somebody was learning piano, would you give them one lesson and expect them to know how to play a scale, what a chord was, and what tempo is (all fundamentals) or would you give them multiple lessons over and over until they were sufficiently capable of memorizing things?
Basically, if we accept that the campaign is the only place where these fundamentals are explained, a player who does not know them - but wants to ladder, and has already played the campaign once (but didn't grasp it completely), HAS to go replay the campaign to have it explained to them? That's what you're saying. I want it integrated into multiplayer. It's not common sense, otherwise EVERYONE would do it. Breathing is common sense. Attack move is not. Again, we know this because a good 10-20% of the player base doesn't grasp it!
Why is it so bad for tooltips to be put into multiplayer? That is what this is about, and that is what you're saying "fuck you" at me too. That's what I'm advocating, I've said it countless times but you continue to just get angry over me complaining about the game being too easy. I don't understand.
I'm not familiar with LoL, just with WoW, but even with the tooltips it was far better to experiment it yourself. But why not ? As long as i can disable it, just do what you please.
EXACTLY. But you can't experiment if you have NO idea what is happening. You can't experiment by dropping if you don't know how to attack move. That's what tooltips are FOR, for the most basic of players to learn the absolute basics when they are not capable of experimenting. You can't experiment to improve attack move - there is no real better way to move army units in an aggressive manner. That's why something so fundamental should be in a tooltip, and why we should have them - some players don't know this.
Or maybe not, for the players who aren't lagging it's roughly the same. Either way it's not gamebreaking at all, therefore not a big deal to have this option on or not.
This I didn't differentiate properly. There is no disadvantage to automine. There is a disadvantage in disabling WC/B as you now have to physically do something that the other player does not.
Like i said in the previous posts, i disagree. I want it on in game because it saves time to count workers. Having to drag the workers every minute to be sure you're efficiently mining is just stupid.
This is the only post that I feel you understood, and I am completely ok with you disagreeing. I never wrote it expecting everybody to agree with me. But I did at least hope they would -understand- what I was getting at (and some people have), but a lot have just really come into this thread with stupid angry ideas insulting me for wanting the game to be hard.
You shouldn't have stopped. If you had read the "TL;DR" you'd see that we're practically advocating the same things.
On September 06 2012 20:06 kmillz wrote: So you agree it removes a skill, yet still argue that it is a necessary change to the game? Why is removing a skill necessary at all, when boxing and counting has never been an issue before?
Automine (not a skill) is necessary because it (at least until a better fix is out) alleviates lag for people coming into the game late. WC/B is not because it removes the skill in counting and distributing your economy the most effectively.
The crux of WC/B comes down to whether or not you believe that economy management (in the sense of saturation, NOT mindless automine on workers) should be part of a strategy game. I believe there is, because there is a tangible difference when you choose not to properly saturate your workers. Learning this skill provides a real benefit to players who excel at it. I Believe that economy management is important to a strategy game. Mindlessly telling workers to mine is not economy management, but knowing how to use your resources to maximize profit IS.
Now, feel free to disagree with that statement, but don't flame it. No automine in BW was a mechanical disparity - players who lacked APM could not excel. Maximizing worker saturation takes at most 3 APM - it is not a mechanical disparity, it is a mental disparity. Lacking the ability to saturate your bases properly does not mean you don't have the APM for it, it means you don't have the focus to do so properly and keep track of how many workers you're building. (I struggle with this as well, but removing the need for it would immediately up my skill level in a way that I don't think should happen). Again, you have every right to disagree with me as much as I have a right to voice my opinion, so I don't see why anybody would need to be aggressive about it.
On September 06 2012 22:35 Butterednuts wrote: This entire change is to help those that load into the game early. This is not reflective of "trying to remove extra actions". Some people load into the game a few seconds after the game actually starts and that sets them behind. Now with the actions being server-side and not reliant on the player's computer or network the game will start out more fairly.
Stop talking about how this will make it easier for noobies and how they're making the game easy because it isn't about that.
Why then does that function set your rally point to the mineral line - an action that has no effect on the game unless you make a worker. The only way this would make sense is if Blizzard automatically builds your first worker, but they don't. So why do a user function that can't have any effect in setting you behind until you build workers? (Which is NOT done with the function as it is)
Edit: Another thing I should say is the simplified command card in the bottom right for HOTS is an excellent idea. It is basically tooltips, just for specific unit commands, and THAT is the kind of thing that explains attack move.
*puts on flameproof suit* I'm fine with the worker count per base thing. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=366475 Check out that blog if you want to see why I'm fine with it. Or just read my tl;dr, I don't care. You'll probably get more out of the blog, though. Anyways, the tl;dr version of the point I'm wanting to make is that counting your workers per base is not necessarily a good kind of difficult. Landing good storms or making an awesome flank is a good kind of difficult. Not so much for spending an apm or two to check out your mineral lines. It was a minor thing when it comes to how hard the game is, and so removing it won't really make things that much easier. Overall, if they add more of the fun kind of difficulty, the kind that both the players and spectators can get behind, then I'm fine with removing minor nuisances like this. I mean, seriously, how many competent players actually fuck up their worker spread? It's just an apm sink. Judging by what Blizzard is trying to add to the game from the units in the beta right now, I can safely say that we are going to get our difficult game. New zerg spellcaster? Protoss harass? The game is getting a lot more micro shoved into it, and I like that as much as the next guy.
On September 07 2012 05:22 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: *puts on flameproof suit* I'm fine with the worker count per base thing. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=366475 Check out that blog if you want to see why I'm fine with it. Or just read my tl;dr, I don't care. You'll probably get more out of the blog, though. Anyways, the tl;dr version of the point I'm wanting to make is that counting your workers per base is not necessarily a good kind of difficult. Landing good storms or making an awesome flank is a good kind of difficult. Not so much for spending an apm or two to check out your mineral lines. It was a minor thing when it comes to how hard the game is, and so removing it won't really make things that much easier. Overall, if they add more of the fun kind of difficulty, the kind that both the players and spectators can get behind, then I'm fine with removing minor nuisances like this. I mean, seriously, how many competent players actually fuck up their worker spread? It's just an apm sink. Judging by what Blizzard is trying to add to the game from the units in the beta right now, I can safely say that we are going to get our difficult game. New zerg spellcaster? Protoss harass? The game is getting a lot more micro shoved into it, and I like that as much as the next guy.
This is a good point, and really the best kind of counterargument that I've seen for WC/B. I certainly don't mind more micro, and as long as we have something raising the skill cap (more spellcasters for example) then it could be ok. But we just have to make sure (or hope) that the units we get aren't gimmicky. (The warhound seems kind of gimmicky and boring, the battle hellion I like, warhound should be redesigned, not necessarily because it's op, but just because it seems like it clashes with other units.)
On September 06 2012 16:25 opisska wrote: When WoL started, I discovered TL and quickly realized, how much feedback is there and wondered why Blizzard consistently refuses to hear it and was angry at Blizzard. Slowly I realized, that 99 % of the feedbackis at least as stupid as this thread and became very, very glad that Blizzard refuses to hear it (there are bright expections, such as better unit movement, fewer resources per base, etc., but they are very, very rare) .
Why is this stupid? Because it is bitching for the sake of bitching. Someone once convinced the TL userbase that it is good for a game to be "difficult". Most of the people have no idea what does it mean, but it they feel better if they deffend a "good thing". The big blob of text in the OP is just made up arguments in a desperate attempt to make it look "deep", but it does nto make it any better.
Automine at the beginning of the game does not change shit about the difficulty of the game. It has absolutely no effect on anything. It just removes one stupidly boring action that you had to do at the beginning of every game, no matter what. Most of the whiners probably have dead-end jobs that consist of nothing but boring, repeated tasks, so they are conditioned to accept them. But I hate boring, repeated tasks and I believe that anyone with a half of brain should do as well.
So If you really want to micro your workers, nobody prevents you from doing that. You can even try to fight the AI split, if you think you are better! But please, stop ruining good things for the others.
I totally agree. Four separate threads about the warhound and how it is bad, including how it will kill Esports. At least four threads about how the game is being made easier through surfacing information, such as how wide a scan is. One whole thread complaining about how they didn’t fix the clock. And let’s not forget the clock, which people complained about when it was added to the interface.
People are just complaining to complain. The fact that the game now starts the game by performing a two click action for me has no effect on anything that matters SC2. There are so many other important issues, like in game support for teams(like Dota), better tools for casters, a better league system and tools for new players to get into the game and understand how to play correctly.
But not on TL. On TL, we care about things like the game taking a single action for us. Or how pretty the warhound is and if it can be a-moved or not and if that is ok.
This is designed to help those who lag upon start, or those who have to wait for observers and wont know when the game will start. It doesn't really lower the skill rating of the game, because in all seriousness how many people didnt use their starting workers to mine.
It doesn't split them either so I dont see why it is bad in anyway. Not like its automaking workers or something....
On September 06 2012 16:25 opisska wrote: When WoL started, I discovered TL and quickly realized, how much feedback is there and wondered why Blizzard consistently refuses to hear it and was angry at Blizzard. Slowly I realized, that 99 % of the feedbackis at least as stupid as this thread and became very, very glad that Blizzard refuses to hear it (there are bright expections, such as better unit movement, fewer resources per base, etc., but they are very, very rare) .
Why is this stupid? Because it is bitching for the sake of bitching. Someone once convinced the TL userbase that it is good for a game to be "difficult". Most of the people have no idea what does it mean, but it they feel better if they deffend a "good thing". The big blob of text in the OP is just made up arguments in a desperate attempt to make it look "deep", but it does nto make it any better.
Automine at the beginning of the game does not change shit about the difficulty of the game. It has absolutely no effect on anything. It just removes one stupidly boring action that you had to do at the beginning of every game, no matter what. Most of the whiners probably have dead-end jobs that consist of nothing but boring, repeated tasks, so they are conditioned to accept them. But I hate boring, repeated tasks and I believe that anyone with a half of brain should do as well.
So If you really want to micro your workers, nobody prevents you from doing that. You can even try to fight the AI split, if you think you are better! But please, stop ruining good things for the others.
I totally agree. Four separate threads about the warhound and how it is bad, including how it will kill Esports. At least four threads about how the game is being made easier through surfacing information, such as how wide a scan is. One whole thread complaining about how they didn’t fix the clock. And let’s not forget the clock, which people complained about when it was added to the interface.
People are just complaining to complain. The fact that the game now starts the game by performing a two click action for me has no effect on anything that matters SC2. There are so many other important issues, like in game support for teams(like Dota), better tools for casters, a better league system and tools for new players to get into the game and understand how to play correctly.
But not on TL. On TL, we care about things like the game taking a single action for us. Or how pretty the warhound is and if it can be a-moved or not and if that is ok.
So basically, you think that what I'm advocating (a new tool to help new players get into the game and understand how to play correctly) is a good thing? Because that's what I'm saying... I'm not complaining (not exactly sure if you implied that I am, but you agreed with a post that certainly thought I was complaining, which is strange).
On September 07 2012 06:32 MaK UK wrote: This is designed to help those who lag upon start, or those who have to wait for observers and wont know when the game will start. It doesn't really lower the skill rating of the game, because in all seriousness how many people didnt use their starting workers to mine.
It doesn't split them either so I dont see why it is bad in anyway. Not like its automaking workers or something....
I never said it is lowering the skill rating of the game (some people have though). And I acknowledged that it helps people who lag at the start. But that's not its only function, otherwise blizzard wouldn't rally your nexus to the starting minerals (an action that has no benefit at all for people who lag at the start, since they can't build workers to make use of the rally anyways). So if blizzard made this ONLY to help players who lag, then they did an awful lot of pointless code.
What bugs me the most is that again they choose to solve a problem in an overcomplicated way that causes new issues. All we asked for was a countdown after the loading screen to make sure everybody starts at the same time. Implementing exactly that would have solved that problem and not raised any new ones. This automining thing however kicked off a big discussion and makes people rage. Why do they always make decisions like that? I don't get it. Their life could be so much easier if they sometimes chose the obvious, simple solution.
As a few have pointed out before me these are very shallow "skills" toi have. Max saturation has by no means been intuitive before, with saturation counts the newbies will learn fast. If counting SCVs is made mechanically easier it also makes room for adding new and hopefully deeper skillsets. The automine is furthermore a very good solution to the laggy start problem. Tell me, what is the real issue here?
On September 07 2012 11:14 Blueblister wrote: As a few have pointed out before me these are very shallow "skills" toi have. Max saturation has by no means been intuitive before, with saturation counts the newbies will learn fast. If counting SCVs is made mechanically easier it also makes room for adding new and hopefully deeper skillsets. The automine is furthermore a very good solution to the laggy start problem. Tell me, what is the real issue here?
The real issue is that people aren't really addressing my points. YES the worker saturation can be considered a shallow skill to have (i disagree, but its certainly a valid point).
I already acknowledged that automine helps with lag, but that's not my point.
splitting at the start is a pretty dumb thing to consider a skill cap. typical of nostalgic brood war fans to consider built in mechanical obstacles essential for "skill" in a strategy game.
i mean i don't care one way or the other if my drones go to mine automatically, there's nothing going on in that part of the game so i've got my routine down pretty well but i seriously doubt this will cause my wins-to-losses ratio to change.
Note: Nony was mocking this thread(and others like it) earlier today on his stream. I believe he said something like "people are getting worried about boxing a group of units and an automatic rally that you are going to change anyways."
On September 07 2012 11:25 Plansix wrote: Note: Nony was mocking this thread(and others like it) earlier today on his stream. I believe he said something like "people are getting worried about boxing a group of units and an automatic rally that you are going to change anyways."
You realize that Nony (as much as I love him) completely missed the point of my thread as well? I'm not worried about boxing a group of units. Read my TL;DR PLEASE.
TL;DR 1) Auto mine is an acceptable (but poor) fix to the "entering a game late" scenario. 2) Auto mine serves two functions: fixing that bug and helping new players. Tooltips would be a MUCH more useful method of helping new players with the game, and they would be much more all encompassing than simple auto mine. It's a win-win for both new players and "elitists" 3) Worker count per base interrupts with the idea of "microing" your economy. 4) Completely subjectively: I don't like WC/B because it interrupts with the feeling of the game in my opinion. WC/B is much more subject to opinion than my ideas about automine, as I see it. (Need of a tooltip that is) 5) Ultimately I would be ok with both changes going through (particularly WC/B because I still do it badly at masters) but I still dislike the change.
When does that illustrate that I'm worried about auto mine? Do I not say that I like it for it's purpose of fixing lag? Where in the TL;DR or in my thread do I sound like I'm worried about boxing a group of units and an automatic rally that I'm going to change anyways? Because if it's anywhere in my OP it shouldn't be. Even a progamer's opinion is completely invalid (relative to the subject) if they have no idea what the subject is. :/
On September 07 2012 11:20 Doc Daneeka wrote: splitting at the start is a pretty dumb thing to consider a skill cap. typical of nostalgic brood war fans to consider built in mechanical obstacles essential for "skill" in a strategy game.
i mean i don't care one way or the other if my drones go to mine automatically, there's nothing going on in that part of the game so i've got my routine down pretty well but i seriously doubt this will cause my wins-to-losses ratio to change.
For the millionth time, I'm not asking for a better skill cap, nor mechanical obstacles. I'm trying to make the game easier.
This is such a depressing read, people just are jumping on Alryk without actually reading his points for a start.
The campaign does not prepare the casual player for the multiplayer experience, at all. I have spent hours of my time trying to teach friends who are new to the game what they should be doing. Things like worker saturation and whatnot are not intuitive to the newbie, but when explained properly they genuinely can take it up. There should be more tutorials to address this kind of issue, not a 'oh I barely have to even manage my economy now' tooltip.
Lag getting into the game, and fixing it with automine is ridiculous. All players needed was a countdown to display when both had loaded, and they would be starting simultaneously surely? That said, I haven't been able to play on my setup since 1.5 so any kind of Blizzard solution to problems they themselves created is welcome.
Regarding the worker counter, I've lost games from bad saturation, my response is 'oh I've fucked up a key aspect of the game, better tweak that'. But nope, let's just take out another attention-to-detail thing that people apparently don't want to bother practicing.
Also all this 'oh it frees up action to promote strategy' bollocks also gets annoying. Plenty of other games cater to this kind of playstyle, only Starcraft that I know of puts an emphasis on mechanical competence. Why take away this key aspect of the game's identity?
Perhaps the changes themselves aren't major at all, but the underlying design mentality that they reveal is something I disagree with.
On September 07 2012 11:14 Blueblister wrote: As a few have pointed out before me these are very shallow "skills" toi have. Max saturation has by no means been intuitive before, with saturation counts the newbies will learn fast. If counting SCVs is made mechanically easier it also makes room for adding new and hopefully deeper skillsets. The automine is furthermore a very good solution to the laggy start problem. Tell me, what is the real issue here?
The real issue is that people aren't really addressing my points. YES the worker saturation can be considered a shallow skill to have (i disagree, but its certainly a valid point).
I already acknowledged that automine helps with lag, but that's not my point.
Maybe people doesn't address your points because they aren't easily distinguishable in the OP's coagulation of text. Maybe you should try to retell your points in a more comprehensive fashion instead of repeating "not my point, not my point" over and over again.
How exactly does your solution address the lag issue?
And no, saturation counts only obsoletes a brainless click-drag-count mechanical exercise. It doesn't interfere with the strategical aspects of base micromanagement but simply enhances the importance of them. Having a feel for which count between 16 and 24 SCVs is optimal for the specific situation actually starts to approach some sort of strategical depth. Those sensitive for the viable exceptions of under- and oversaturation also deserve some merit.
Points 4 (makes the game look worse) and 5 (it's okay, but I'll still dislike and make a thread about it) are valid but very subjective.
On September 07 2012 11:14 Blueblister wrote: As a few have pointed out before me these are very shallow "skills" toi have. Max saturation has by no means been intuitive before, with saturation counts the newbies will learn fast. If counting SCVs is made mechanically easier it also makes room for adding new and hopefully deeper skillsets. The automine is furthermore a very good solution to the laggy start problem. Tell me, what is the real issue here?
The real issue is that people aren't really addressing my points. YES the worker saturation can be considered a shallow skill to have (i disagree, but its certainly a valid point).
I already acknowledged that automine helps with lag, but that's not my point.
Maybe people doesn't address your points because they aren't easily distinguishable in the OP's coagulation of text. Maybe you should try yo retell your points in a more comprehensive fashion instead of repeating "not my point, not my point" over and over again.
How exactly does your solution address the lag issue?
And no, saturation counts only obsoletes a brainless click-drag-count mechanical exercise. It doesn't interfere with the strategical aspects of base micromanagement but simply enhances the importance of them. Having a feel for which count between 16 and 24 SCVs is optimal for the specific situation actually starts to approach some sort of strategical depth. Those sensitive for the viable exceptions of under- and oversaturation also deserve some merit.
Points 4 (makes the game look worse) and 5 (it's okay, but I'll still dislike and make a thread about it) are valid but very subjective.
You realize I've been quoting my TL;DR like every single post? Also, there's a TL;DR, it's for people who can't be bothered to read the paragraphs - it outlines the major points so people can address them. People have no excuse for not reading or understanding my post because of the TL;DR AND the TL;DR being quoted probably at least once a page.
My solution is not about the lag issue. I never tried to solve that. MY issue has to do with new players. But I can easily solve that problem - put a counter on in game so that people are loaded but can't "do anything" until the counter expires. But that's not the point. Don't go into a discussion about the warhound and ask how their solution addresses the Tempest. I never tried to make the lag issue a major point of my post, I merely acknowledged that the automine helps with lag.
See, we disagree here. That's not a fact, that's an opinion. I think that the ability to know how to optimize workers is a skill that needs to be learned. Your opinion is not more valid than my opinion. My opinion is not more valid than your opinion. There is already a strategical depth involved, but some people just don't want to believe that it's there (and they have every right to think this) just as I have every right to flat out disagree with you.
Points 4 & 5 I stated as subjective, I just figured I'd voice them anyways. I should rephrase 5 though, as it's not really accurate. I dislike the change for the specific intention that it has - I think that something like additional tooltips would serve it better. I already stated the change is ok for lag, but not ideal (just add a countdown, or fix the code). WC/B is an entirely subjective matter. And newer players WOULD be better served with more all encompassing tooltips than they would with a simple automine.
I feel functions like automine and worker saturation are incredibly minor additions to solve a greater problem. SC2's playerbase is dwindling and these additions make the game more accesible towards players who can't put the time in to become high-skill.
These additions don't hurt the cerebral element of the game at all while lowering the twitchiness.
What i do think is bad would be automatic base management where the cpu automatically saturates gas when minerals are oversaturated. Worse, if you were harassed that the cpu automatically sends a worker to a 2/3 geyser.
Do people really consider boxing a group of SCVs, and clicking on a mineral field - a skill?
I don't - it's just a laborious thing that always needs to be done. No decision making, no strategic element - just a totally 'required' thing.
If it's gone, I can't see it making any difference to the outcome of games - it doesn't detract from strategy - it just means players with a bit of start up lag don't face the frustration of not having constant worker production. Anyone silver or above should be fairly efficiently send their initial workers anyway.
Meh, out of all the things I do while playing SC2, I don't consider the worker split to be an impressive demonstration of my skill.
On September 07 2012 23:23 Barrin wrote: Why don't these people just play the single-player? How stupid do you have to be to not realize that if you're completely new then you probably have little chance of giving any remotely established player a decent challenge? Multiplayer when single-player exists is not for newbs, this was always intuitive to me (donno bout you guys). If you can't figure out how mining works after a few missions, then perhaps there are better games out there for you.
Don't be fooled, these changes are not targeted at helping entry-level noobs. They are targetted at lowering the skill CAP, which of course also concerns noobs.
BTW I'm a top advocate of increasing skill cap of SC2 (mechanics being one of three major areas), but really the auto worker split is fine IMO. Worker display on the other hand?? I give up.
Well I certainly agree that playing single player would solve the problem, I feel like many players wouldn't want to just play single player over and over to get the basics. I know a lot of friends who jumped into ladder quickly because they didn't want to go through campaign. While I should be less extreme and admit that mining is pretty simple, other things like what building does what aren't necessarily so, especially since there is no zerg/protoss component to the campaign, so aspiring protoss/zerg players would probably be confused as to each building.
Especially since not every level of the campaign is a tutorial, and you have to play through it sequentially to get information on certain units, the information is so spread out that I personally don't think it's a very good way of "learning" moreso than introducing. And when the information/tooltips (such as what a barracks is etc.) is already present in the campaign (via adjutant talking) I think that it would be a fairly simple job (not really but some of the code can surely be reused) to port all of those tips into the multiplayer aspect - this way, instead of playing one mission to learn about the thor, another the viking, (and the factory and starport in two separate missions), upon building each respective building, the adjutant can pop in and say "this is X... use it to Y..." in a relatively short "mini tutorial" so to speak.
Since I am certainly not versed in computer coding relating to video games, I don't know how difficult this could be. It's possible that something like this is limited purely because of a time/investment sort of ratio.
EPT
) I know that there are simple things that people forget about in those levels. Worker production is one. It's an important aspect of the game. Worker Saturation is another, equally important aspect of the game in my opinion. Knowing how many workers goes to a base is (like I said earlier, but solely in my opinion) an aspect of "microing" your economy. Yes, it is kind of menial, but it requires an active attempt to learn something about the game and apply it to each particular situation (how many probes you have per game), much like keeping your army in a deathball versus a mass ling force, or splitting versus bane/fungal. 
(on campus from 9-8 today haha)
