EPTOh well, will probably play DotA 2 now.
The flaw of Automine/growing HOTS casual base - Page 3
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS |
|
Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
Oh well, will probably play DotA 2 now. | ||
|
HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
1) If it is not obvious that workers need to be sent to mine, Blizzard needs to create better tutorials for new players rather than change the game. 2) Even if a mundane choice, sending all of your workers to mine is a choice. 99% of the time most players will do exactly this. But 1% of the time they won't, and if the metagame worked out differently, maybe sending all six workers to mine WOULDN'T be the standard. Yes, you could grab one worker and send it out to proxy, but it feels like it is one less choice being made. This is also why although useful, I am not sure how I feel about the worker counts. IIRC, it was not Blizzard that told everyone that 24 workers per mining base is optimal. It was the community that realized this through testing, and even then 16 was OPTIMAL, 24 was pretty much the max, but even the 25th and 26th workers added a (tiny) amount of additionally mined resources [iirc]. 3) Even if you could turn off sending all of your workers to mine, because every player clicks their CC/Nexus/Hatchery to build their first worker, then split their workers, it will not be as fast as having the workers automatically start moving to the minerals, even if they're split better for the manual player. This is why some comments read "doesn't it seem like I have more money in the early game?". It's because you do. If they wish to convey these things to new players, I think it's fine to say how many workers are mining minerals/vespene at a given base when clicking on the vespene geyser/command center. Adding it as a fraction is unneeded, maybe even SLIGHTLY misleading and I would much rather Blizzard work on incorporating their own tutorials or even community-based tutorials into their game rather than adding redundant things such as this. | ||
|
Schlendrian
49 Posts
Problem solved. | ||
|
radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
So in a game where we have all of our information “outside the game” displayed in a graphical way, we now have information being displayed to us in a textual way. There isn’t anything necessarily wrong with this, and this is where my opinion is much less logical/rational and more a matter of consistency, but I believe that the “Worker count per base” idea interferes with the consistency of the game and just does not fit into the general flow of Starcraft II. The information is just projected incorrectly. I think on the issue of worker counts per base, its much more important because the number of workers you have matters a lot more than your army. Because in the latter case...no one really needs to count an "exact" number of roaches or marines or stalkers that they need in their army. They just eyeball something that looks appropriate or go for a certain timing attack, trying to squeeze out as many units as possible by the time their upgrades are ready. Obviously it matters a lot more for economy because a precise number of workers creates the most efficient economy, and having a number that is easy to see makes it a lot easier for players to accomplish this than eyeballing the number of workers they have or trying to do a good box and counting the complete complete rows and the deciding how much to add in combination with any incomplete rows. So really when you compare the tremendous advantage in accessibility with the disadvantage of not maintaining "consistency", I think its clear that Blizzard's change is a good one. Also the game clearly uses numbers when its appropriate, whether its hit points, attack speed/damage, workers per vespene geyser, move speed, hot keys...Blizzard should be trying to make the game as good as possible, not forcing consistency where it doesn't make sense. But I think more people are disappointed by the change because they feel it "dumbs down" the game. But I don't agree with this view. You could make a lot of things in the game require a painful, unnecessary amount of work in order to increase the skill level required to play. I mean you could disallow rallying entirely and force people to move each individual unit when it spawns, or prevent people from boxing more than 6 units at a time or assigning more than that number to a hotkey. But that's a really bad way to make the game difficult, and would be an example of really lazy design to make the game "challenging". The kind of difficulty viewers want to see, and (I would think) that players would want to practise, is the meaningful challenges like microing and mulitasking an army, whether its multi-pronged aggression, or scouting/harassing while macroing up back at your home base. These are the challenges that matter...and for this reason, in the broader scheme of things, there is still going to be a tremendous gap between bronze and masters players regardless of whether this change goes through, so I really don't think this is some serious effort by Blizzard to appeal to casual gamers. Its simply a reasonable change that makes the game less tedious and focuses people's APM on the stuff that's actually important. Edit: Oh man...why are my posts always so long -.-. Oh well I'll keep working on that | ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:47 Akhee wrote: good players will constantly check workers in every base and setting rallies to where it should have a good saturation now any scrub can do that to the same level putting worker per base to observers only would be awesome, but NOT in the game and automine is ridiculous History repeats itself. | ||
|
Penecks
United States600 Posts
I don't get lag at the beginning of a match, why should my game be negatively altered for those that do? | ||
|
FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
The one in the shelter already infected, knowing it, but trying to distract the others from just ending his misery. Anyway as for the OP, after reading it i have a really different opinion on what a rts is, so a discussion would end nowhere most likely. But i have no issues with these changes, especially since you can turn the worker split off (would have had a problem with it otherwise). Its helpful for laggers in the beginning, its less good then doing it yourself, if you know what you are doing. And i really dislike the argument of the reward being to small for doing something, that is popping up every now and then for sc2, when people have the need to express something is getting to easy. So if you know how to properly split workers and count them, this won't affect you a tiny bit. The only argument that stays at the end is: "but now my cheese isn't super effective anymore, because my mining at the beginning isn't that much ahead." As for casuals being hurt by this. If they would be bothered by such fine tuning, they wouldn't be called casuals. As for Noobs being hurt by this, no they will find help on how to do it right if they really want to. About noobs not finding out that rally points exist, well then they are blind x3. You will find out what i mean once you are ingame ... hopefully. PS: getting resources is the heart of an eco sim. (though rts games without atleast a bit of a macro part are boring, but its not needed) | ||
|
FecalTank
United States70 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:49 Link_Drako wrote: This game is already killing my love for SC2.... They are taking away all of the skill based variables. >.< Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing. | ||
|
genius_man16
United States749 Posts
On September 06 2012 07:54 xccam wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mxypu9WC8c History repeats itself. Lol that was funny, I didn't realize that was a thing people complained about when SC1 came out. | ||
|
imre
France9263 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:17 FecalTank wrote: Are you seriously complaining that automining is somehow taking away ANY skill? That's just ridiculous. It takes away nothing. someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it. | ||
|
photomuse
United States102 Posts
| ||
|
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
actiblizzion making this game easier for the casuals yet again.. part of sc is that you influenced every factor of this game even if it's minute difference the fact that you sent your workers to begin mining influences the game. i like being able to say that I won the game. that I started mining and that I started my barracks, that I started marine production, etc. automation and "casualization" of games is a slippery slope and blizzard has been on it for a while now. if we don't fight for the fundamentals of starcraft theywill soon be gone. blizzard should know by now: casuals are not consistent. people who play this game competitively are. making things easier for casuals (while it makes them more money in the short term) cheapens the time and effort competitive players have taken to become good at this game. in the long run, these competitive players will leave if blizzard continues to insult their hard work by installing retard-friendly functionality at this point the player base is used to our level of automation. keep it that way and add units thta will increase the skill cap. thats ALL they need to do with this expansion, but i'm seeing none of that. just more amoving units so your build order can win if you follow it right | ||
|
FecalTank
United States70 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:19 sAsImre wrote: someone never played bw here. It's cool to not have to bother with it but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Hell without it 2raxing'd be really hard and rewarding if you're able to macro behind it. It takes nothing away. NOTHING. Selecting workers and clicking on minerals is not a skill. Splitting them, maybe, but you can still do that. And if somehow it automatically doing that for you fucks you up, you can turn it off. Nothing is lost. | ||
|
imre
France9263 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:23 FecalTank wrote: It takes nothing away. NOTHING. Selecting workers and clicking on minerals is not a skill. Splitting them, maybe, but you can still do that. And if somehow it automatically doing that for you fucks you up, you can turn it off. Nothing is lost. automining is the fact you can rally your workers being built on your cc directly to your mining, not the autosplitting thing. | ||
|
FecalTank
United States70 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:24 sAsImre wrote: automining is the fact you can rally your workers being built on your cc directly to your mining, not the autosplitting thing. My bad, but even then, I don't consider that a skill. Clicking on a worker and a mineral patch isn't a big thing. Keeping up on the production is, and even then it's hardly an issue. | ||
|
Slipspace
United States381 Posts
| ||
|
lazyitachi
1043 Posts
If this is such an issue, then posting on TL for discussion purpose is kinda silly. Instead it will be much more productive if YOU PROVIDED FEEDBACK TO BLIZZARD. Please take the time to compile a nicely written list of all your grievances. Write well thought out reasons supporting each and send them to blizzard! If you are really desperate, use an online signature gathering tool to show Blizz the amount of people supporting your cause! | ||
|
Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
| ||
|
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:28 LgNKami wrote: I dont see a problem with automine at all. And if it makes the game a little easier for new people to understand, why not let them play? There are a lot of people who are scared away from sc2 because of how "complicated" the game is. Making some of the basic things, that everyone knows how to do anyway, a little easier for new people to understand is just fine. I want sc2 to grow, not get smaller. okay. how do you feel about units like the siegetank being virtually replaced by the warhound? siege tanks have to focus fire to be useful many times vs good players, warhound will auto target units it gets a damage bonus against how do you feel about idle army key (similar to idle worker, except it selects all army)? shouldn't players be rewarded for hotkeying all their units? wasn't part of this "design idea" to break apart the deathball? strange and hypocritical to add a button like this how do you feel about the cc auto rallying to your minerals? were the 17 seconds in between starting worker 1 and 2 not enough time to do that? i just dont undersstand the rationale for these changes other than "we can make more money if more people play. if we make things easier, more people will play" | ||
|
GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
| ||
| ||
