EPTThe flaw of Automine/growing HOTS casual base - Page 2
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RoberP
United Kingdom101 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3682 Posts
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Protein
United States132 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:31 ref4 wrote: wait so what your are proposing is still rallying workers to mineral patches, how is that different than what SC2 is already doing right now? I agree the worker saturation per base is kind of stupid and unnecessary. I mean, how hard is it to box all your workers and count how many rows of 8's you have. Not hard at all. I'm shocked people are whining about something as inconsequential as this so hard. So we attract more casual players into the game and they start watching? What's the big deal? This doesn't change anything for anyone except for bronzies. People need to chill. I actually had a friend who had bought Starcraft but given up promptly. Once, he saw me playing and said "wow, you get way more workers than I did... How many are you supposed to have?" If this had already been in play, maybe he would be with us today? And maybe we'd have an even bigger player base? Veterans need to stop being so snooty. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:50 Lorch wrote: If splitting wouldn't do anything I'd highly agree. Also keep in mind someone from blizz said most of these things are for ums and are probably not gonna stay in 1 v 1 in the final. Yeah. I'm not raging or anything, and I'm actually assuming that something like this might easily not make it to final, but it's worth addressing now on B.Net when you have the least amount of traffic (highest amount for blizzard to see it) | ||
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JackDT
724 Posts
If the skill ceiling to the game is so shallow that you run into by fixing some trivial interface stuff, the solution is to MAKE THE GAME DEEPER. Unit formations effecting combat effectiveness and movement like in Kohan, cover and suppression systems like in Company of Heroes, detailed physics like in Men of War. Rise of Nations had national borders with associated economic and combat attrition/supply effects. Units with line of sight considerations both for targeting and for what they or the player can see (hide units behind other units or map objects). Range playing in combat effects directly rather than being a binary in-range or not. Unit orientation mattering more (a turret takes time to swivel around to aim at a target behind it). Tanks also have weak armor on the back, etc. Analog movement speeds rather than just moving or not (set with a mouse flick to match the speed?). Why aren't projectiles and units and other game objects 'real physics objects' in Starcraft 2 -- make them into frisbees! Just generally -- increases the granularity of the simulation. More 'spellcaster' units does it too of course but it's far from the only way. Tried the new Company of Heroes at Pax -- the new line of sight and fog of war is crazy detailed. Really interesting stuff. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:51 Protein wrote: Not hard at all. I'm shocked people are whining about something as inconsequential as this so hard. So we attract more casual players into the game and they start watching? What's the big deal? This doesn't change anything for anyone except for bronzies. People need to chill. I actually had a friend who had bought Starcraft but given up promptly. Once, he saw me playing and said "wow, you get way more workers than I did... How many are you supposed to have?" If this had already been in play, maybe he would be with us today? And maybe we'd have an even bigger player base? Veterans need to stop being so snooty. You seem to have missed my point if you are directing this at me as well. My argument is the "starting rally" option implemented can actually confuse new players because they don't understand why their units are auto-mining already. The fact that it has auto rally too addresses my point already, but it doesn't explain how to properly expand or something. That's why tooltips are a better choice than what we have. I'm actually advocating a way of "dumbing down" the game, but without affecting anybody above gold level. | ||
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Kygus
Canada19 Posts
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13JackaL
United States577 Posts
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Grummler
Germany743 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 06:40 BlackPanther wrote: I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts. This. This is sooo much more important than "A new player won't realize that he has to rally his workers to the minerals once he build a new base". I mean, seriously, 90% of new players will actually realize this and the other 10% will make the mistake ONCE and learn afterwards with trial and error. Having an unfair random component inside the game just to make sure new players learn their worker rallying with their first base instead of their second is just dumb. Also, having a peer to peer based RTS start at EXACTLY the same time for all players is really difficult, so i am glad blizzard came up with a simple solution. Worker count: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing. Couldn't agree more. I am glad that there are still people on this forum with common sense. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
I personally am bad at re-locating workers around(am low masters) and in HotS I won't have to improve upon this part of the game, I'll just check the number and be happy about it. "yay" Autosplit - sure it's neglible if it's in but let's put in mineral stacking because hey why not? it's silly to mineral-stack, this is just brainless I tell you, let's add AUTO - mineral stacking so we can focus on the big battles n shit.... | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:58 Grummler wrote: This. This is sooo much more important than "A new player won't realize that he has to rally his workers to the minerals once he build a new base". I mean, seriously, 90% of new players will actually realize this and the other 10% will make the mistake ONCE and learn afterwards with trial and error. Having an unfair random component inside the game just to make sure new players learn their worker rallying with their first base instead of their second is just dumb. Also, having a peer to peer based RTS start at EXACTLY the same time for all players is really difficult, so i am glad blizzard came up with a simple solution. How many bronze friends do you have? I have friends who consistently are slow in rallying probes to minerals etc. Then they do it with their expansions. They KNOW they are supposed to but most players flat out don't remember it. It will be even worse if a player has zero indication it's supposed to happen. At least now, they KNOW they're supposed to, they just forget. It's not a mistake you make "once" for them, it's the same thing as not being supply blocked. It's still a mistake you can make and one that you need to remember to do. Being supply blocked is easier because the game tells you "make more pylons" having workers rallied for you automatically will have no indication that it's possible to actually rally workers. That means a new player will have no way of knowing how to do it, which is why I think we need tooltips. Also, his comment was a relevant one that I forgot about, and I already added it into my OP. On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing. Yes that's true, and I think that's one of the reasons that it could stay. My only real disagreement with it is it doesn't really fit well with how the rest of the SC2 information is presented. On September 06 2012 06:58 Grummler wrote: Auto rally: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 06:40 BlackPanther wrote: I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts. This. This is sooo much more important than "A new player won't realize that he has to rally his workers to the minerals once he build a new base". I mean, seriously, 90% of new players will actually realize this and the other 10% will make the mistake ONCE and learn afterwards with trial and error. Having an unfair random component inside the game just to make sure new players learn their worker rallying with their first base instead of their second is just dumb. Also, having a peer to peer based RTS start at EXACTLY the same time for all players is really difficult, so i am glad blizzard came up with a simple solution. Worker count: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing. Couldn't agree more. I am glad that there are still people on this forum with common sense. You seem like you're including these as some form of criticism, except I already acknowledged both. If blizzard's idea with automine is ONLY to help people who load late, then sure the OP is useless. But every business decision is made to increase profit - so I imagine that decisions like these also have some component of improving the game for new players to it. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:50 Lorch wrote: If splitting wouldn't do anything I'd highly agree. Also keep in mind someone from blizz said most of these things are for ums and are probably not gonna stay in 1 v 1 in the final. i'm just curious, do you have a source for this? didn't lurk too much regarding HOTS. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10126 Posts
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Rictusz
Latvia31 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:58 Grummler wrote: Auto rally: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 06:40 BlackPanther wrote: I think the reason its implemented is because there is usually some lag that occurs when you enter the game. There are times where you can be delayed by as much as 4-5 seconds when the game starts. This. This is sooo much more important than "A new player won't realize that he has to rally his workers to the minerals once he build a new base". I mean, seriously, 90% of new players will actually realize this and the other 10% will make the mistake ONCE and learn afterwards with trial and error. Having an unfair random component inside the game just to make sure new players learn their worker rallying with their first base instead of their second is just dumb. Also, having a peer to peer based RTS start at EXACTLY the same time for all players is really difficult, so i am glad blizzard came up with a simple solution. Worker count: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 06:58 13JackaL wrote: Does it really take that much skill to send your workers to mine and count the number? Not really. It probably wont affect anyone below master level either. I was watching qxc's stream and some of the coL players were complaining about this as well, but then qxc shut them down by asking them whether it actually affected them. It's not like when your opponent can count their workers they will suddenly be much better than you right? It only helps lower level players and I cant see that as a bad thing. Couldn't agree more. I am glad that there are still people on this forum with common sense. if we look at qxc or any pro recent vods we'll find that they don't count as much as we think... | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
@Godwrath What? When was I whining? On September 06 2012 07:05 Rictusz wrote: I rather see these kind of changes to help low league players improve than blizzard implementing extra balance changes because a certain race might be underperforming in low leagues , which directly affects high level play as well.Not to mention one of the changes is actually a "bug" fix. This is my point... I acknowledge that, but my point is its being done wrong. It's better to help players improve by adding tooltips, not a hidden function that they aren't aware of. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 07:05 Rictusz wrote: I rather see these kind of changes to help low league players improve than blizzard implementing extra balance changes because a certain race might be underperforming in low leagues , which directly affects high level play as well.Not to mention one of the changes is actually a "bug" fix. This is my point... I acknowledge that, but my point id its being done wrong. Edit: Sorry Double post | ||
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RonNation
United States385 Posts
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 07:09 RonNation wrote: I don't really understand this argument because when a new player starts playing SC2 they go through the tutorial that explains how workers and rally points work. Most new players don't just start laddering and they'll face much worse problems than figuring out they need to set rally points if they start laddering without going through the tutorial. I acknowledged that at some point, (Idt it's in my OP though) I know going through the campaign teaches you the basics, but I have a lot of friends actually (and I can't be the only one) who has friends who tried to jump straight into multiplayer. And I have friends who played the campaign but are still in bronze. Playing the campaign doesn't necessarily mean you understand all the mechanics inside the game. | ||
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Burns
United States2300 Posts
If a developer wants to make a game more accommodating to new players then if can do what valve did with counter strike. In that they create a casual and a competitive ladder. This allows new players to not get crushed my better players and makes the game more forgiving. | ||
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