EPTThe flaw of Automine/growing HOTS casual base - Page 6
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terriBean
Canada75 Posts
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:09 terriBean wrote: I'm a platinum level player and I think these changes will help me. The changse aren't just geared towards new players who don't know the basics, it's not like that at all. The changes will make it so I will no longer have to count workers(time consuming) to have optimum saturation, and the auto-send workers is just one less thing I need to do at the start of the game. T.T So you like the idea that "less things for you to do" = more skill? I mean in all honesty by this, as a Masters T I really have trouble keeping my supply depos going sometimes so I want my scvs to auto create depos when I get near 8 supply of the mark at around the 150 supply mark. Oh and I have trouble microing marines, so to make it easier let's have marines auto micro and stim back (like the bot that was arouind a year ago) so I don't have to, and medvac drops? I just want them to do the dmg on their own. Let's make this game of chess into checkers. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:58 ghost_face wrote: People are ignoring your argument because it's a bad argument. It's based on the player being completely oblivious and unable to learn. "Not only do they not know why their worker is moving, they don’t know how to get it to the minerals (this has already been done for them). They know they need to gather resources, but they have not seen that they need to actually make workers go to the mineral line. " No one is that stupid, and if they are, they are going to have much bigger problems in SC2 than getting their workers to mine. In (almost) any RTS, left click to select, right click on something to interact. If a player can't figure out that right clicking on a mineral line will make a worker mine, how are they going to understand how to attack or move units? How did they even launch the game if they didn't understand the concept of using a mouse to interact with things on a computer? Even if they can't figure it out, it's something they only have to learn once. You're claiming auto-mine/split is going to make the game harder for beginners, that's ridiculous. 1) Ad hominem ("it's a bad argument" while not necessarily an attack on me its still a fallacy as you don't provide any real basis, whereas I've stated that I've seen people in bronze struggle with simple things like rallying their workers to the minerals) is unnecessary. It also doesn't address the fact that they aren't reading my argument at all, and if it's simply a "bad argument" then why post about something completely unrelated? Would you argue that attack moving is common sense? Because it isn't. Worker rush in bronze - people right click SCVs. They ignore an extremely common sense tactic, and one that is directly addressed in the campaign, but for some reason they don't do it. Why? I'm not saying the player is oblivious to learning, I'm saying that an unnecessary confusion can be placed on somebody when a tooltip would be a much easier and simpler way of resolving the issue. And multiple times I have acknowledged that my opinions/examples were both overblown, disjointed, and not necessarily the best. But all you did was pick out one example (that I even admit was overdone) and criticize it. But how many games of bronze players have you seen? I have been in bronze, I have friends who are in bronze right now, and they don't always rally their workers. They obviously know that they should be rallying their workers, but I have literally had to tell friends every game to do mundane stuff like that. I have friends who don't understand attack move (The "fourth" thing anybody should learn, behind building workers, structures, and units). I sound like an ass for saying so, but you're almost giving bronze players too much credit for being able to learn. ANYBODY in bronze who wants to learn can easily get out of bronze. The problem is so many of them don't want to, or choose not to learn. That's why you see worker rushes, 6 pools, mass void rays on one base, stuff like that, because its easy to execute and it requires no actual learning. Learning (like I said) should be in the sense of tooltips, not a hidden option in the game menu that nobody is going to bother with or understand. Would it not be much easier to have tooltips explaining every facet of the game to a new player until they disable them? "These are probes/SCVs/Drones, your main mining unit. Use them to gather resources" could easily be the starting tip for a game. As soon as you click on a Nexus, it could say "this is your Nexus, it does X..." Is that not easier than automining units and not explaining why they automine? Sure they rally to minerals and what not but that doesn't explain anything about the game or how to help newer players get accustomed to it. On September 06 2012 10:09 terriBean wrote: I'm a platinum level player and I think these changes will help me. The changse aren't just geared towards new players who don't know the basics, it's not like that at all. The changes will make it so I will no longer have to count workers(time consuming) to have optimum saturation, and the auto-send workers is just one less thing I need to do at the start of the game. I'm actually not too against the idea of auto mine. It's a necessary (at least temporarily) fix to the lag issues at the beginning of a game. The problem is I think Blizzard intended it to assist new players, and I believe that there is a better way to do that. | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
Sure, they were both added to help weaker players, but the former is mostly inconsequential in SC2 once you know what the workers do, while the latter will have repercussions in most of the lower leagues for sure, and even pros might benefit from not having to spend a few seconds less every game boxing and quickly figuring out how many workers they have. Personally I don't mind, IMO things like these shouldn't be what separate pros from noobs. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem? until blizzard adds in a button where you hit it and you get green arrows telling you where to place your army, then I don't give a shit about the little things they add to help the casual players. The more casuals the better imo, it's why LOL is so successful because they have so many scrubs playing a F2P game. This game will never be F2P, so to keep the casuals coming back, they make it a bit easier, big deal. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:16 emc wrote: bro, this isn't a huge deal, the first 2 seconds of a game is meaningless. This helps lower level players and people with bad computers, how will this effect pro level at all when thats the only thing that really matters in the end? 24 workers also isn't optimum, try putting 24 workers on your base and look at how many workers are jumping around. This is a starting point for NOOBS, so seriously, whats the problem? The problem is you completely ignored my point >.> | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:18 Alryk wrote: The problem is you completely ignored my point >.> your point is you dont like it, and blizzard should change it. blizzard won't change it. and if tournaments desire, they can BAN it because it's an option in the menus. if tournaments ban the function, then pros will never use it. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:20 emc wrote: your point is you dont like it, and blizzard should change it. blizzard won't change it. and if tournaments desire, they can BAN it because it's an option in the menus. if tournaments ban the function, then pros will never use it. Actually, that's exactly what I've been trying to tell people ISN'T my point. Nice reading skills. I believe there's a problem with it, but not that I don't like it. I have already acknowledged that it's necessary (to fix lag) which you completely ignored. My next point is that there is a better way to help casuals than this, i.e. tooltips like in that game LoL that you claim is so popular. When did I complain about blizzard making the game easier? Yes I said I didn't like how it's implemented, but not for the reason you're saying. You're implying that I'm just whining, whereas my entire post highlights how I think the game could be made easier in a way that is less obtrusive. Even if automine stays (which I would be ok with) I don't think it's the way that blizzard should take to introduce the game to new players. THAT was my point. Blizzard doesn't need to change it, they just need to add to it. I never said Automine needs to be completely removed from the game, I just said that the function blizzard wants it to serve would be better done by something else. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:09 terriBean wrote: I'm a platinum level player and I think these changes will help me. The changse aren't just geared towards new players who don't know the basics, it's not like that at all. The changes will make it so I will no longer have to count workers(time consuming) to have optimum saturation, and the auto-send workers is just one less thing I need to do at the start of the game. Which proves the point that it is a bad thing from the standpoint of reducing skill in the game. It actually does require a higher level of multitasking to check worker saturation constantly and it is rewarding to have achieved it. I'm not exactly sure of the figures, but a worker mining at a suboptimal rate mines something like 30 minerals less per minute, which is a big deal, especially at the higher level. The thing is, I don't even see how it will improve the game experience for lower level players. If I didn't really aspire to getting better than my current level then I wouldn't have a terrible time playing with suboptimal mineral saturation, because I would be matched up with likeminded people. The only thing this change is going to do is allow people with less multitasking (or what was previously less multitasking) play at the same level at those who do have the ability to check mineral saturation constantly. I don't really like the fact that mining starts automatically, but I see it as a bad fix to a problem that does exist. Everyone seems to be going on as if this is the actual issue, but I see the worker counter as a much greater issue, as it does actually reduce the amount of skill required to play the game, and due to the importance of mineral saturation in the game, it reduces skill to a non-trivial degree. A lot of people seem to be ridiculing this idea with statements such as "LOLOL now it tells me my mineral saturation i can play at the level of Mvp". While this is obviously not true, it is actually things like this that do separate players like Mvp from the rest of us. ONE worker mining sub-optimally for ONE minute leads to a loss of ~30 minerals, make that two workers and you have one extra marine with some minerals left over, a huge deal, not even at the very highest level of play but even as low as diamond. If someone is not paying constant attention to their mineral saturation (which of course is made easier by having the constant reminder on your Town Hall), they could easily have two too many workers on one base and two too little on another. In the long term this will make a massive, massive difference. While having a constant reminder of minerals wont allow scrubs to play at the level of Mvp, it just takes away one of the things that players like him have the opportunity to excel at and show how amazing they are at this game. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:18 Alryk wrote: The problem is you completely ignored my point >.> You ignored MY points! And someone even quoted them for truth! Hypocrite :D | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:25 734pot wrote:While having a constant reminder of minerals wont allow scrubs to play at the level of Mvp, it just takes away one of the things that players like him have the opportunity to excel at and show how amazing they are at this game. In the end it comes down to how important you think such a skill is for pros. I personally don't think it's a big deal, I'd rather be impressed by unit control, predicting the enemy's strategies, creative build orders and so on. As long as there's plenty of depth to those I don't mind the little things like these being trimmed away. On September 06 2012 10:11 NeMeSiS3 wrote: T.T So you like the idea that "less things for you to do" = more skill? I mean in all honesty by this, as a Masters T I really have trouble keeping my supply depos going sometimes so I want my scvs to auto create depos when I get near 8 supply of the mark at around the 150 supply mark. Oh and I have trouble microing marines, so to make it easier let's have marines auto micro and stim back (like the bot that was arouind a year ago) so I don't have to, and medvac drops? I just want them to do the dmg on their own. Let's make this game of chess into checkers. This ties into my point directly. None of the things you mentioned are things I'd want removed, because I value a pro's ability to manage unit supply and unit control a great deal more than I do the ability to count workers rapidly. So saying I want the latter removed doesn't imply the former must also happen (slippery slope fallacy). | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:28 Staboteur wrote: You ignored MY points! And someone even quoted them for truth! Hypocrite :D No I didn't >.> HA! Somebody owes me an apology  Now I may not have answered it satisfactorily to you, but that's a different matter entirely. I definitely made an effort to answer it. Not only that, I answered it before that person QFT'd.Edit: However, if I DO happen to ignore somebody's points (particularly in pages 3-5 because I missed those and only addressed what I felt summarized the page really) please let me know if you take issue with it. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
Essentially only newgens who started with SC2 would ever defend such changes from Blizzard. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:30 archon256 wrote: In the end it comes down to how important you think such a skill is for pros. I personally don't think it's a big deal, I'd rather be impressed by unit control, predicting the enemy's strategies, creative build orders and so on. As long as there's plenty of depth to those I don't mind the little things like these being trimmed away. This ties into my point directly. None of the things you mentioned are things I'd want removed, because I value a pro's ability to manage unit supply and unit control a great deal more than I do the ability to count workers rapidly. So saying I want the latter removed doesn't imply the former must also happen (slippery slope fallacy). This is much more subjective, and I like hearing this personally. This is where we get differentiation - whether or not you value a player's ability to intuitively know how to properly saturate workers. Depending on how importantly you view economy management in SC2, the change will mean different things to you, and I'm completely ok with that. It's completely reasonable to not see the point in boxing/microing your economy, but I also think it's reasonable to care about it (the side I happen to fall on). | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:30 archon256 wrote: In the end it comes down to how important you think such a skill is for pros. I personally don't think it's a big deal, I'd rather be impressed by unit control, predicting the enemy's strategies, creative build orders and so on. As long as there's plenty of depth to those I don't mind the little things like these being trimmed away. But what makes players like Mvp so great is that they can do both at the same time. It not like you have to make a choice between the game having good micro situations and the macro requiring skill. Someone who can multitask is much more impressive than someone who can only macro or only micro. I don't really see any good reason to take skills like this away. It doesn't really make the game more accessible, its not like lower level players even pay great attention to this sort of thing in the first place and its not going to ruin their gaming experience if its too hard for them to do, they'll just be matched up against other people who have the same skill deficiency. Its small enough of a deficiency that it won't really matter till they get to a higher level, and I'd like to think that people that play at this higher level actually get some satisfaction from mastering something that isn't flashy explosions. I acknowledge that the game does need to be accessible to lower players, but not at the expense of dumbing down play at the highest level. | ||
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ironpiggy
United States70 Posts
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
Edited into OP as well. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:42 ironpiggy wrote: what i don't understand is why blizzard doesn't just make these changes only affect practice league. I mean, completely new players are supposed to play practice league matches first anyways, so they should learn from it. Thats a very good point. If they're trying to add features that supposedly make the game more accessible for lower level players, then they should make such features only for that purpose. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:44 Alryk wrote: Another solution I saw: Instead of automated WC/B, just provide a numeric value after you box workers. It seems like a reasonable compromise between the two. Such a thing already exists (check out here) and something like this could probably be implemented into HOTS, for a more subtle way of giving a quick numerical number, while still requiring an action on the users part. Edited into OP as well. I like this idea, as it maintains the APM and rewards being attentive to something that isn't completely obvious in the visual sense. It still does make it a bit easier, which I would still prefer to be avoided though, as it does take away some of the visual programming people have gained from looking at the wireframes (is this the right term?) after boxing over workers, but it sort of seems like I'm nitpicking at that point. The thing is, I don't even see why they need to put this in in the first place, though it could actually be a good idea for lower league players. Maybe only practice league or even up to Plat. I prefer this solution to be honest because it leaves play at the highest level completely untouched. | ||
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