EPTI really don't like lynching people while they aren't here. That being said, I'm probably going to end up voting for either Alderan or DoYouHas. Leaning towards Alderan at the moment. More on this as it develops.
Newbie Mini Mafia IV - Page 45
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
I really don't like lynching people while they aren't here. That being said, I'm probably going to end up voting for either Alderan or DoYouHas. Leaning towards Alderan at the moment. More on this as it develops. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
1.) The first one is about this post: On February 28 2012 09:56 phagga wrote: This argumentation is absolutely stupid. If igabod is getting replaced, then he was not playing the game at all. Therefore him lurking does not say anything at all about his alignement. He might even be a blue for all we know, and some real life matter keep him from playing. This is exactly the reason why we should NOT just lynch any lurker. So as long as igabod is not casting a vote, we should not try to lynch him. I later wrote in a later answer to him that I did not find his play suspicious at the time. The reason I said this was that I thought that no matter if he was town or scum, he could not know if igabod was town. Only today when I reread all posts it dawned on me that this is not true (obviously). If he was scum, he would have known all along that igabod was town. And suddenly it made a bit more sense that he pushed that lynch. 2.) I really just realized today (after reading this post) that I wrote the following answer to the same person as the quote above: On March 02 2012 01:44 phagga wrote: No, I don't agree. You accused him of not generating content. He agrees, but then only writes an excuse, and you are already giving him a free pass. Now there is no more pressure on him to generate real content, which is what would have given us more information on him. You left him of the hook way to early. Instead, I would have liked to see you call him out on his confession of not generating content, and pressure him more at least until he starts generating content. I noticed several times that people don't want to pressure someone anymore after the target went from scummy to towny. Why not? If you already started, pressure some more. Townies don't need to be afraid to get pressured. After all, they have no reason to lie, and if they write what they think and observe, than they have nothing to fear. And it will generate more information which will enable more people to judge better if someone is town or not. But if you let Nightfury of the hook like that, and nightfury gets lynched anyway and flips red, I will immediatly get suspicious about your reluctance to pressure him after making a case on him. My Stance on DoYouHas: After reading his filter, I find a lot of small things that I find strange, but by themselves are not noteworthy. examples: - Thinks Quatol confirms FourFace as town - Forgets his case - the igabod thing mentioned before - Let's nightfury of the hook too easily (that one especially irks me when I reread his reaction to nightfurys defense) - The whole "parallels to the other mafia game" thing - confuses ntteas vote Collected, they raise suspicioun. It might be that is all a coincidence, perhaps it's not. I am suspicious of him, but not enough to want to lynch him over Alderan. As we are again in the bad situation that roughly 4 hours before the deadline only 5 people have voted, I just keep my vote on Alderan and hope that we will be able to get a majority for a lynch. I am off to bed in about 30 minutes. | ||
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zelblade
Australia901 Posts
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
On March 03 2012 22:54 zelblade wrote: 1) The definition of a lurker is someone who actually posts, but doesnt post anything worthwhile. Did you really think igabod was more likely scum than town? I dont understand why you would prefer having him dead as opposed to replaced. Chances are the "lurker" is more often town than scum either way, and the fact that he has flipped town further reinforces this fact. 2) So what do you think of Alderan now? 3) Yes. Perhaps the situation played out a little similarly, but no two games are the same. Besides, what makes you believe that scum did the same thing as last game? One of the "expereinced players" could easily be scum for one, or the candidates could be scum. You have zero reason to believe that scum played similarly according to last game. Why dont you see this? 3.1) Scum almost always split their votes day 1, for obvious reasons, unless the lynch is close and one of the two candidates are mafia. There is no reason to believe they did not do so, and having all of them dump their votes on a single person is just dumb. And no, I never said that you and Alderan were acting similary. Instead, what i meant is this: I believe that you didnt vote gumshoe, claiming that you thought he was town, to gain towncred when he flipped. Alderan did something similar to this going against your lynch and voting for someone else instead. Besides, how do you know what you think is an "accurate portyal" of scum's play? You do not know how they are acting. Another thing - what conclusions have you yourself drawn from this activiy? Note how you never actually do so, and never actually use this speculation to drive home a case. Which is why I dont see it as useful. Note that this still doesnt explain why you wanted to venture into this topic. 4) Isnt this a position scum love to be in? 5) You might be right on this point that I am expecting too much of you, honestly because NMMIII gave me quite the impact. However, I still do think that your logic is horrible, and dont believe that you believe in it. 1. If you make it through a day without posting, but are not being removed from the game, that makes you a lurker. 2. I did not like his early play with 1 case and lots of smaller posts. That is why I pushed him some. Also, I don't like that he has not posted in a while. However, (this is mostly from memory because I'm in a bit of hurry) he makes more sense some of you. I lean town for him atm. 3. You don't like my reasoning, so be it. I think that correlating events and situations hint at how the mafia are playing. You don't. I'm not wasting any more time on this. 3.1 bolded What is this? It was extremely clear what you said, you said that I did something similar to Alderan's scum play from SNMM7. As for the "accurate portrayal" talk. My actual words were, "You think that I am scum, that I gave an accurate portrayal of how scum are playing this game, made a point of bringing it back up and getting Alderan to comment on it, and that I wasted everyone's time with speculations that you seem to agree with and even use in your case against me." I never said that I thought that I had presented a completely accurate portrayal of scum play this game. Instead, my point is that you are using some of the same things that I brought up in my speculation to attack me. So you must think that I was at least somewhat accurate with my speculation. Italicized What conclusions did I make? What cases did I push forward with my speculation? This One I used my speculation to create standards which I used to scumhunt. I pushed NightFury with these standards. 4. Yes it is, but it is still the truth of how I felt. 5. I think the logic of your cases against me is equally horrible, so at least it is mutual. Something about zelblade that needs to be said. Many of us (including me) believed he is town because of the ridiculous and crazy response FourFace made to my initial case. However, with nttea flipping medic, we know that FourFace fakeclaimed doctor. I am of the opinion now that FourFace's craziness no longer exonerates zelblade. I am obviously biased against zelblade because I think he is making bad cases against me. All that I am asking of you is to put him back on the table when you are considering who is suspicious. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
On March 04 2012 13:35 k2hd wrote: In response to zelblade: Despite the pressure on him, I am still not totally convinced that alderan is mafia. He stuck his neck out on day 1 with his case against chocolate (this is I believe the first case made in the whole game), and I don't see why mafia would do this. He drove a lot of discussion on day 1, and I don't see why mafia would want to do this, rather than letting discussion stagnate or focus on the wrong things (we spent a LOT of time debating the merits of a soft deadline). He was bringing the spotlight onto himself, increasing the chance that his posting would be scrutinised more closely (which happened). The above paragraph alone isn't enough, but his voting pattern also suggests town to me. He voted steve day 1 and me for day 2. He did not want a chocolate lynch (who I still believe is town from my previous post), or an igabod/nttea lynch, who has since flipped blue. I obviously know I am town (still unsure about testsubject), but alderan does not. He could've helped in getting a lynch on an easy target in igabod/nttea (at the time there was a real chance of igabod being lynched), but chose steve instead. On day 2 he votes for me and keeps his vote on me when there was still the danger of a no lynch. I hope he can explain his absence when he gets back. As for DoYouHas, I now find it VERY suspicious that after making these 2 posts (also used in sloosh's case): post 1 post 2 He still has not responded to this post (in regards to the nightfury issue): phagga's post The only post he makes addressing phagga's post is this one: + Show Spoiler + On March 02 2012 02:45 DoYouHas wrote: This is wrong. It is equally as possible that mafia would tunnel someone that hard. Tunneling someone into a lynch, on a green flip, makes it very hard for the town to determine whether it was just bad town play or scummy play. It is an easy way for a scum to get into and out of the spotlight without offering anything more than a null read on them. It also lowers the town's expectations for them for the rest of the game. Similarly, being willing to back off a case is just as often a trait of a townie who has changed their mind as it is a scum who wants a bandwagon. WIFOM my friend, WIFOM. I also find myself oddly comfortable with either a k2hd, gumshoe, or Alderan lynch. I think they all have good reasons to be lynched, but I will wait a little longer to see what people think before I make my preference clear. No mention of why he let nightfury off so easily. + Show Spoiler + On March 03 2012 04:10 DoYouHas wrote: No I didn't think k2hd was a better choice solely based on comparison to gumshoe. He was someone that I found suspicious when I was making my case against NightFury because he met many of the scum standards I was using to accuse NightFury. I do think he is a good suspect for tomorrow. Or why I do not get the same treatment as nightfury. He left for his trip AFTER phagga made his post, and has ignored the nightfury issue. As for sloosh, I am on the fence, but leaning town. I am ready to re-evaluate after today's lynch, if alderan or DoYouHas are lynched and flip green. Btw, chocolate, can you not post like that (your phagga case). It was extremely hard to read. Still believe chocolate is town because I doubt mafia team would let him make cases like that... k2hd, you do not get the same treatment because you used a similar defense and you were second. You had the opportunity to play off of NightFury's response, so I was not going to treat you the same. As for the way I acted towards NightFury. After his response (which did strike me as earnest), I knew I wasn't going to make myself any more or less certain of his alignment by continuing to batter away at him. So instead I decided to play of an attitude I saw in his defense. Namely that he felt like he couldn't do anything that wouldn't throw suspicion on him. So I decided I would give him a strong town read from me and see where he ran with it. If he took my quick turnaround as a blank check to continue lurking or posting poorly, then he was probably scum. If he took my quick turnaround as a vote of confidence and his new posts showed that new confidence, then he was probably town. (note that this cannot work if I tell anyone about it) What has he shown in his more recent posts? Confidence and content. I lean town for him. As for you k2hd, I don't know what to think, in my quick read through of what I missed I did like a few of the things you posted. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
His voting pattern day 1 left a bad taste in my mouth, he refuses to stick to his guns, and I think he pushes weak cases to hide the fact that he's scum. That, and all the stuff that everyone else brought up. | ||
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dreamflower
United States312 Posts
Alderan - 2 slOosh phagga DoYouHas - 2 k2hd zelblade Non-Voters - 7 DoYouHas JekyllAndHyde NightFury Alderan Chocolate TestSubject893 ghost_403 Voting ends in a little over 3 hours! At the moment, with 4 voters, 3 votes are needed to lynch. Please remember that you need to vote in the voting thread for your vote to be counted. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
DoYouHas I'll just list things that add up to build up my read, as posting quotes is too messy and difficult to read. You can read his filter alongside as this is loosely chronological. - Voting patterns. I pointed it out above in his relation with k2hd. - His instantaneous drop of his NightFury case, only to pick it up on k2hd with the same reasoning. - Weird vote switch from k2hd to nttea and back - Flip flopping on gumshoe - Using "you voted gumshoe" as considerable reason for suspicion - Jumping straight for a nttea lynch, and not providing much anything else when probed for information It's hard to point out "scummy" posts because all his reads and stances are weak, unsure and flip flopping. He doesn't push or pressure for anything, and the only people he has gone after this game are easy to pick on players (Fourface, k2hd and nttea). Finally, add in the weird interactions between DYH and Alderan where there is sheeping and soft defending, asking each other easy-to-respond-to clarification questions, establishing "interactions" so if one flips the other isn't suspected due to them being missing from filters or whatnot. -Voting patterns. D1, I have rehashed this plenty. D2, Why should I have switched to gumshoe? You didn't need me to make a majority, if I had you would just be calling me out for bandwagoning instead of for being on the right side of a lynch. You will not convince me that I was wrong to vote nttea. You play like that, you get lynched. -Dropping of NightFury case I just explained. - Weird vote switch from k2hd to nttea and back. We had an iffy case against gumshoe, I was somewhat more confident in the ones against k2hd, and a person who had just done something unquestionably scummy. Even if it was a last minute vote switch and bandwagon, that is the best choice. You don't ignore scum tells just because they come late in the day. - Flip flopping on gumshoe. Wishy-washy yes, flip-floppy no. I made it clear that I did not think gumshoe was the best lynch, but if it came to it I was willing to vote him to avoid a no-lynch. - Using "you voted gumshoe" as considerable reason for suspicion. You will have to give me the quote for this one, I don't want to dig through my filter searching for this when a vote deadline is imminent. -Interactions between DYH and Alderan. I feel vaguely insulted by this. You know that Alderan plays solidly as scum. I have already mentioned that I look for these soft defenses and easy interactions when I am scumhunting. Yet you think that both of us would be stupid enough to be that obvious. If both Alderan and I were scum, you are right, we would not ignore eachother, but our interactions would also not be this stupidly obvious. Throw Chocolate onto the pile too. I have soft defended him by tearing down bad arguments against him. I do think it is amusing that zelblade accuses me with the assumption that I play well and you accuse me with the assumption that I play terribly. | ||
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
A no-lynch is the worst thing that could happen to this town (already inactive and demoralized). Alright slOosh, you win. I'll vote Alderan in spite of my leaning town on him. But you had better believe that if he flips green I am going to come after you with a vengeance night3/day4. ##Unvote: nttea ##Vote: Alderan | ||
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NightFury
Canada114 Posts
##Vote: Alderan | ||
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Alderan
United States463 Posts
If anyone has any questions for me off the top, that would be the easiest answer. | ||
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Alderan
United States463 Posts
When I flip town you can almost assuredly say that DYH is town. There are a couple reasons, but the biggest one is that on N1 DYH basically berated me for buddying up to him. This is not something that scum does, they want the town to befriend them, so they can carry votes and look less suspicious. DYH calling me out on buddying him that early in the game would have been a terrible move as scum, and DYH is better than that. Everyone's vote should instantly go on Sloosh. He's done nothing but belittle others (namely me and DYH) under the guise of active posting. He's also the Godfather, so a dt claim that he is town will only show scum who to hit. Honestly if there is a vig, shoot Sloosh tonight. Trust me. Sloosh's hardcore defense of K2HD leads me to believe that k2hd is town. He would not have been this aggressive in defending him had he been scum as it would have looked terrible if me and DYH had gotten the lynch to go through. He wanted k2hd to get lynched so he comes out and looks very town and can lynch both me and DYH. Don't let that happen. The other 3 are not set in stone yet, but in my mind, one is definitely one of the lurker players, probably TestSubject. That can be determined after Sloosh. Also, I feel like I have already been checked by a DT. Do NOT claim. You alive and me confirmed town is worth more to the town than me confirmed town and you shot tonight. If we have another medic, save DYH tonight, and every night you can. Now that I got this out I'm going to provide more evidence on the Sloosh case, just wanted to hurry this out before I was unable to post anymore. | ||
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
I haven't been posting that much because the mafia is basically running the town now. I was thinking of getting myself modkilled to show you all my alignment so you would finally lynch my suspects, but I think it would be cheating because it's against my win condition, although it could help. Tomorrow I may do that if we really need to start lynching mafia. | ||
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JekyllAndHyde
42 Posts
Here is the case on k2hd. I am going to catch up on the newest pages, as there probably has been some posts while I was finishing this case. I will post the rest as soon as possible. Hyde also asked me to take over for now since he is too busy, so I will be the one mainly posting from now on. Case in spoilers because it's huge. + Show Spoiler + k2hd On February 27 2012 21:08 k2hd wrote: Right then. First off, FourFace. His posts sound like a town player who is very enthusiastic about playing things his way, and having fun with his writing style, hence the kooky posting, so I agree that we should take the heat off of him just for now... In my opinion, he is unnecessarily drawing the attention away from FourFace to start with. On February 27 2012 21:08 k2hd wrote: As for chocolate and ghost, I must say I have my suspicions regarding them as well. I'm not going to quote too much because I think others have done enough of that already while I've been away. There is no such thing has others have done enough, even if everyone had gone through a persons filter ten times, someone else could still find something that others have not noticed. On February 27 2012 21:08 k2hd wrote: Ghost seems VERY insistent on lynching. He's even against using FOS and wants to straight out lynch anyone he considers suspicious, as some have already pointed out. Then, when FourFace places a vote on jekyl just to "pressure" them, ghost posts this: It doesn't really say much about WHY FourFace is doing it wrong, and conveniently places another vote on jekyl. You are right that his "pressure vote", is totally useless and says nothing. I do not understand why do you considering being insistent on lynching suspicious? The only way the scum dies in this game is by lynching. (Well, with the obvious exception of a vig possibility, but even they have only one shot in newbie games usually.) On February 27 2012 21:08 k2hd wrote: Then, FourFace presents himself as a better, and more possible target for a mislynch. Ghost accuses FourFace of scummy/crazy play, and it seems to me like he is out to get the easy mislynch again. Does he actually just think that FourFace is playing a very weird and seemingly nonsensical style? Maybe, but he has yet to unvote FourFace in the voting thread. FourFace's play up to that point is by no means pointing him out as town in my opinion, and considering it was still the early stage of the day, what does a vote hurt? It may force out more reactions, and it certainly is no harm unless it is thrown around as something of no value, by constantly changing it. Which ghost did not do in my opinion, although moving it a few times. On February 27 2012 21:08 k2hd wrote: I'm also very curious though to know why everyone is ignoring igabod. Up until now, his contributions have been these 2 posts: All he has done is agree with what has been said so far (without even bothering to put it into his own words, or back his agreement up with his own logic), and since then we have heard nothing from him. It may not always be worth it to constantly poke at a lurker. Most people should acknowledge someone is MIA, and everyone constantly asking the MIA person something isn't necessarily going to change that. Rather use the effort to get out more content from the current active people, and if the lurker has no legit reason as to why he is not contributing (but does enough to avoid modkill), then it's quite clear that he should be pushed more. On February 27 2012 21:08 k2hd wrote: Now I should say that this will likely be my last post from now until the voting deadline (the real one) because I have to head off to bed soon for class tomorrow, and will be in uni when the deadline is up. I have pretty much no breaks tomorrow either in between classes. Because of this, I will vote for a no lynch for today only. Since I will be away for so long, I'd rather not vote for a lynch on someone who posts a proper defense when they wake up, or if a better target presents themself and I'm not available to change my vote. Just to confirm, can I ACTUALLY vote for a no lynch, or does that only occur when there is no majority? I will actually probably come online tomorrow during a lecture just to check this post (and change my vote if I have to), wouldn't want to be modkilled for a stupid mistake like this Just fyi, If I cannot vote for a no lynch, I will be voting for igabod no matter what, because I won't have time to go through posts properly in a lecture to consider what everyone has to say. It seems like a safe enough option for now because I am sure I will not get a majority on him anyway at this stage, so this vote shouldn't have an effect on tomorrow's lynch. I'll be able to post more as I have Wednesday and Thursday off (GMT +11). ##vote: no lynch Why on earth would you go for a no-lynch on D1 if you could.... It seems like you are scared to take any responsibility in whomever ended up being lynched, as your only choice of vote is a lurker. On February 28 2012 21:58 k2hd wrote: Alderan, I want to ask you now, do you think I'm still suspicious for "stacking" my vote on igabod to potentially save chocolate? I see that you yourself changed your vote away from chocolate, so I'd like to hear what your case is against me now. I already stated why I voted igabod. I had suspicions regarding chocolate and ghost like everyone else (was leaning more towards ghost in fact), but did not want to vote for either one in case they posted some convincing arguments while I was gone, and still have my vote on one of them because I wasn't around to change it. I was the first to bring igabod up, and voted for him because I didn't want to affect the outcome of today's lynch as I figured that sure, he was lurking, but was that by itself enough to convince others to vote for him? Turns out he did almost get lynched, but hey, I missed out on a LOT while I was gone. Not that it matters now anyway. Hi to the new entrants btw  The two bolded parts do not make any sense to me. Why did you not vote for someone you were initially suspicious of? Just because someone may come back with good arguments while you are away, does not mean that they couldn't be scum. What are you were doing by keeping your vote for a lurker, you were one of the persons to cause a no-lynch. If you had voted for ghost or chocolate, and they had came out with a convincing defense, I am sure the town would not have lynched them regardless of your placeholder vote. But if they seemed scummy, the town would have had a much better chance at lynching them for not missing a vote, if you get what I mean. I don't see how your voting was pro-town. Also, as a townie, why would you ever NOT want to affect the outcome of the lynch? Your primary mission as a townie is to affect the outcome of the lynch, to sway it towards a mafia member and get them killed. If every townie was thinking like you, that would be equal to letting the mafia decide every lynch, which would obviously result in the town losing. In my opinion, you are just trying to give yourself an out/excuse for bandwagoning without needing proper reasoning for it. Not everyone is a "town leader", but no townie should sit beside and follow the supposed "town leaders". On February 28 2012 21:58 k2hd wrote: Sloosh, I find your case against alderaan very interesting. And just to add to what zelblade has said, here's this post by alderan: + Show Spoiler + On February 28 2012 01:28 Alderan wrote: Obviously we need to hear more from everyone, but here is who I'm specifically looking forward to: - Igabod - Chocolate - Janaan (In that, I would like to hear who you want to vote for) - Ghost_403 - Steveling I still like Chocolate as the lynch candidate for today, but I'm going to hold out as I wait for a response. Also I have more reads on Ghost, but again, I'd rather wait for him to respond so as not to jump the gun with divulging information. A note on Steveling. Last game he played a very "I'm a noob town don't lynch me" game as stated in one of his first posts in the scum qt. He obviously can't do this again if he's scum, because he knows I'm town, and I'll call it out. After playing a game with him it seems like he is a person who would use a shtick as scum. Steveling I'm telling you now, if a lurker scum is your thing, I'll find you. He wanted to hear about what those 4 had to say, but janaan is exempt from explaining himself, he just has to tell him who he's voting for. He has now stated that janaan makes him suspicious (in alderan's post regarding those among igabod's voters who he found suspicious), so we will have to see how convincing a case he posts for janaan, or if he is going to post a weak case and let someone else tear it down because it is not concrete enough, thus absolving janaan of any guilt. I say all this because I have also started to get suspicious of janaan. However, I don't think I have enough yet to be any more than moderately suspicious of either at this point (would alderan really shove himself into the spotlight this much if he were mafia? It must be awfully hard to keep from any slips this way... But I'm new to mafia, so who knows). I would like to hear from both of them first before going further with this. I'd also just like to sleep on this too, I've spent hours looking at everyone's filters, having over 10 tabs open and trying to find what I want in each of those tabs. Also, I obviously want to see what the night brings along. The above just looks like a bunch of nonsense speculating to me. I do not see how useful your theorycrafting about how Alderan may or may not post a weak or a strong case and let someone tear it down. Neither do I find useful how you are implying that you are suspicious of Janaan, but say you don't have anything to back it up with. If you are suspicious of someone, why would you say it aloud that you have nothing to pressure them with? That just lets the mafia calm down, knowing they haven't made a mistake yet and not needing to worry. I also find it slightly funny how you talk about Alderan shoving himself into the spotlight, and why would he do that if he was mafia? Only to find him quiet down later.... On February 28 2012 23:14 k2hd wrote: This is not enough for me to lynch you personally. It's just something that phagga brought up that I didn't catch, and I wanted to hear what you had to say. I really don't have much of a scum read on you at all. BassInSpace ... I just hate when people do this. Why would you need to assure someone that you don't have a scum read on them? Unless you are trying to buddy up with someone. Mafia isn't a game where you should be afraid of stepping on someone's toes. Mafia is a game where you SHOULD step on someone's toes, and see how they react after. On February 29 2012 11:33 k2hd wrote: As for voting for igabod, I wasn't saying I did anything special. I was just reminding people that I was the first to vote him, and not simply jumping on a bandwagon to save chocolate; who is still potential scum. I was not trying to make my actions look any more meaningful than that. I already stated my reasons for voting igabod, so I will not repeat them here. If you are not trying to make your actions look any more meaningful, why would you need to bring up the fact that you were the first to vote for someone? It does not matter whether you are the first, the second, the third, or the last, or anything inbetween that to point out/vote/suspect someone. What matters is the content you provide to prove that person is scum. On February 29 2012 11:33 k2hd wrote: Now for this: Why on earth does that make you suspect me more? I don't see how that shows that I am "worried" about being suspected. There were a few who were starting to get suspicious of me, and I was addressing them, simple as that. How is this bizarre? This is your weakest point on me. I agree, it's certainly no strong point on anyone. But I do not either see why you would need to specifically point something to the people who suspect you. Everyone else wants to know your reactions just as much, and if you play this game by "only reacting to those who ask something of me", then you clearly have your hands dirty on something. On February 29 2012 12:43 k2hd wrote: As for why janaan, there is the possibility that he was killed because alderan started pressuring him, and if he was scum, the kill would make alderan look more innocent. Why kill janaan if testsubject and alderan had started making cases on him, wouldn't it be better for scum to leave him alive to absorb some pressure? Alternatively it could just be a scum ploy to heap more pressure on an already suspicious alderan. BassInSpace We do not need to hear epic theorycrafting about the night-kill. Most likely only the scum knows why they killed someone. On February 29 2012 13:23 k2hd wrote: I don't think it's wise to claim blue at this stage of the game zelblade. Not sure if this is just a mistake or done on purpose to try and fish for a reaction / make the others convinced that zelblade is a blue. On February 29 2012 16:13 k2hd wrote: Sloosh, I wanted to ask you about this part of your case against alderan + Show Spoiler + Summary: Alderan has shown a great bias against Chocolate. He tries to focus people on him (such as Janaan when he posted about ghost) but is perfectly willing to drop it when DYH comes in to call out what is going on. Even so he picks it back up and tries to get people to look at it, and then tries to get something on Steveling started on the sole basis that he is involved with Chocolate. Conclusion: It could be a case of serious tunneling (which I doubt as he seemingly listened to DYH), but I find it more likely that he is casting confusion amongst town by setting up multiple suspects without good reason or case. It does seem, as you say, that alderan is focusing hard on chocolate, but is he really trying to set up multiple targets? From what I can tell, at the point you made that post, he was only setting up chocolate and steveling to be scrutinised, and dropped his case against ghost. I think it's becoming more and more likely that chocolate is town, so if alderan were scum, why waste his vote on steveling, who he knew was not going to attract enough votes for a lynch? And nttea, you haven't contributed to the thread yet and you are already advocating a default alderan lynch if there is no new info? It is only the start of day 2, there is plenty of time for more info to come out. Why are you soft-defending Alderan? How would you know what he is doing unless you've planned it out together? Then you also claim chocolate is more and more likely town, without providing any reasoning, just clearly letting everyone know. And then more theorycrafting about if Alderan would be scum, why would he do "such a bad decision." Well, no-lynching is not pro-town play in my opinion. A no-lynch is a free kill for scum, and it's always better than a scum lynch for them. And right away you are trying to convince nttea on someone else. Why so focused on defending Alderan? On March 01 2012 19:39 k2hd wrote: I believe that chocolate is town. He's had a LOT of pressure put on him due to his sub-par posting on day 1, and had to defend himself left, right and centre for the rest of day 1. He's spent most of his time on defensive posts, and perhaps hasn't been able to focus on gathering much of his own evidence on other players. He is very aggressive in trying to force lurkers to post more by voting, but as was mentioned by DYH, this could just have been a poorly thought out way of fostering discussion. I understand that it may have been an easy way to avoid generating original content/cases of his own, but again, this is probably just the play style of a townie who is unsure of what to do, or who would rather not stick his head out too much. I did not check up on everyone's previous games, but from what I gather from what others have said, chocolate was mafia in his last game, had to tone down his posting because it was too aggressive, and hasn't played town before (unless he's had another game that I don't know about). Why do you find the need to make a case on someone being town? As far as I know, chocolate wasn't under that heavy pressure that he would've needed help of someone else to convince others of his townyness. I don't like at all how you are defending certain people. It's like you are trying to belittle his play on purpose, and try to set him up as a newbie town. Why would you want to do that? On March 01 2012 19:39 k2hd wrote: There is also this post by chocolate: Why would he argue so confidently against a vote swing AWAY from him? Chocolate is also one of the first to start getting suspicious of alderan. After day 1, some of the heat was finally lifted off of him and focused on alderan by others. Following this, we have sloosh post a large case against alderan, followed by JekylAndHyde's case, and alderan is under more and more pressure. Instead of continuing his case against alderan, chocolate decides to launch a case against night fury of all people, who no one had posted any suspicions against yet. If he were mafia, why would he not join others in pressuring alderan (or the case that is piling up against gumshoe), and go for a target who would be harder to mislynch? I sincerely believe chocolate is town, and that some of those pressuring him hard are looking scummy to me. Those who voted chocolate on day 1: phagga, sloosh, NightFury, ghost As mentioned a dozen times before, why would you try to need to make something look better than it actually is? The obvious reason for the second bolded: He obviously doesn't want Alderan to get lynched, so he is trying to propose an alternate (town) target instead. At this point reading your filter is making Chocolate & Alderan look worse and worse to me, which are both on my possible scumlist. (Scum: Alderan/kh2d/DYH/slOosh, Suspicious of: Testsubject/Chocolate) <-- This is for those that are not up-to-date with my reads. On March 01 2012 19:39 k2hd wrote: I currently do not have as much info as I'd like on NightFury to say much about him. Sloosh's actions seem pro-town to me so far, and though he has not posted as much as others, his posts have generally been full of content. And we needed to know this because? On March 01 2012 19:39 k2hd wrote: Now for the remaining two: Phagga has been trying very hard for a chocolate lynch the whole game. He takes a moment to call gumshoe out on why he didn't change his vote from ghost, and why he felt the need to "take responsibility" for voting chocolate if he flipped green, and then goes straight back to attacking chocolate. He is either getting tunnel vision with chocolate, or trying to get the mislynch on him. Have a look at this post. He accuses chocolate of relying on the arguments of others, and voting lurkers (a policy which he did state at the start), but ignores the fact that it is chocolate who first brought up a case against alderan (albeit a rather lackluster one) and states emphatically that he will vote chocolate again on day 2, presumably for not coming up with original cases/evidence, when there was still 48 irl hours for chocolate to contribute on day 2 (day 1 had not even ended yet). This early vote behaviour was the same thing we called nttea out for when he wanted a default alderan lynch. It still doesn't matter whether you are the first or last to make a case, being the first one to make a case, especially if it's poor does not certainly make you look any more town. The whole paragraph above is written in a mindset "I want him to look suspicious for tunneling my scumbuddy". Or at least that's how I read it. Hard pressure and tunneling are different. On March 01 2012 19:39 k2hd wrote: I also do not trust this post made by ghost: + Show Spoiler + On February 28 2012 11:03 ghost_403 wrote: You see, this is how I see it. We could vote to lynch Igabod. That's not even really a bad idea. He's been lurking hardcore. Kinda scummy if you ask me. And I don't like scummy. However, his flip doesn't tell us anything. Maybe, we'll get lucky and lynch a scum. Odds are about, what, 28%? You can do worse than that. Other option: You lynch either me or chocolate. I think it's pretty well established, one of the two of us is scum. If whoever gets lynched flips red, awesome! Lynched a scum! If not, guess who the first person on the chopping block is tomorrow. The guy who wasn't lynched. Either way, going into day 3, the town is down one scum. Trying to gain the trust of the town by encouraging a chocolate or ghost lynch on day 1. If chocolate flipped green, suspicion may still have fallen off of ghost because mafia would presumably not make a post like this. I realise that this point is a bit WIFOM (I think I'm using the term correctly?). Basically, it seems to me that phagga and ghost are actively trying to discredit chocolate after his already shaky start, and possibly also get the mislynch on him. Why is encouraging a lynch on someone trying to gain the trust of town? Any townie should try to push for the lynch they are suspicious of, I think you are purposely misreading this aloud as "trying to gain trust". In my opinion, the whole meaning of this post of k2hd's is to protect his scumbuddies and try to cause suspicion against two town players. (Defending Alderan + Choco, Accusing ghost + phagga). Of course I can be wrong, but this is how it looks like to me. On March 01 2012 20:18 k2hd wrote: Sloosh, I was never more than mildly suspicious of alderan. I did make some points against him, but note that I then said this: + Show Spoiler + However, I don't think I have enough yet to be any more than moderately suspicious of either at this point (would alderan really shove himself into the spotlight this much if he were mafia? It must be awfully hard to keep from any slips this way... But I'm new to mafia, so who knows). So I was still very unsure about alderan. As for me suddenly dropping my case against alderan, it's just that ghost and phagga have stood out to me more now, after going through the most recent posts. I soft defended alderan because if there is going to be a case against him, I wanted those issues which I brought up to be dealt with first, so that I could be more open to an alderan case. My speculation on the mafia's intent on the hit and its impact on alderan is, after reading what others think, WIFOM and I will not harp on it any longer. This looks like trying to cover up for bad scum play early on. At the start you had clearly pointed out your suspicions on Alderan, which if you both are mafia members, would give in-between interaction for, which is something the scum usually forget since they are careful of not blaming each other too much. Now that someone picks up on your quick moving to others, you start convincing everyone how you never were more than only a bit suspicious of him. Bolded makes really no sense to me. Issues, really? If you can't look at every case from a neutral point of view, I don't understand how you can be a townie. As pointed out before, I just think this is even more evidence that Alderan & k2hd are scumbuddies, I see no reason why you should need to defend a fellow townie that is clearly able to defend himself from such claims. On March 01 2012 22:16 k2hd wrote: + Show Spoiler + I would be stupid to push his lynch so hard if I was scum and knew he was town. When he would get lynched and flipped green, everyone would be on my heels. You do not want that as scum, specially not so early in the game. Perhaps it is enough that chocolate is discredited, and you know you don't have the numbers to mislynch him without mafia stacking on him. At this stage, there is a low chance of chocolate actually being lynched and thus, flipping green, since there are multiple cases out on alderan, gumshoe and myself. It is also a convenient way of wasting a vote and not committing to anyone else, but as you say, I will wait to see what you have to say about others when you're done with their filters. I will try my best to see what you have to say in the morning before class. This is why I am placing a preliminary vote on ghost first. How would you KNOW that chocolate flips green unless you have a DT check on him? Scumslip? On March 02 2012 09:18 k2hd wrote: As for this: + Show Spoiler + K2hd has still not provided anything of value, under the guise of being a "noob town". Quite frankly I'm sick of responses like this. WE'RE ALL NOOBS.... hence the title of this game. Read filters and make cases. I say from this point forward we stop accepting responses like this. His vote is currently on Ghost_403. His reasons: - He thinks Chocolate is town. - Ghost voted for Chocolate. - Ghost made a slightly suspicious post (a point that I actually brought up initially) - Therefore Ghost is scum. What? It doesn't work like that. ##vote K2hd I'd rather you not devalue my post like this. I voted for ghost because of his day 1 posting, AND his recent interactions with phagga concerning ghost. You may argue that what I said about day 1 was already covered, but not day 2 posts. I have read filters, and my vote stays on ghost. I'm willing to take the chance that gumshoe flips red and I look even more suspicious than I already do, but I do not think he is scum. A response to a pre-set-up accusation between two scum? It looks to me like you are trying to cover up that you buddied up to Alderan by defending him earlier by now getting him to accuse you. On March 02 2012 22:14 k2hd wrote: First, I fully agree with lynching nttea next. He did not explain the ninja vote then, and has still not done so now. Note that the first few posts he made were around this time of day/night. Easy jump on someone that eventually was nightkilled as medic? On March 02 2012 22:14 k2hd wrote: Now for your questions Sloosh. I am still suspicious of alderan, but am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding his most recent spate of inactivity (he says has a party). I also have some questions for him regarding why he was pushing my lynch so much harder than gumshoe's. Alderan, after gumshoe's lynch, you made these 2 posts: post 1 post 2 If gumshoe appeared SO scummy to you, why did you let your vote stay on me? I think we are all in agreement that a no lynch at this stage of the game is bad, and leaving your vote on me risked exactly that. I know you suspect me, but the 2 linked posts show that you supposedly felt that gumshoe was "so scummy". That, combined with the fact that the majority of the players were convinced he was scum would make gumshoe the better option to place your own vote on. More fake-interaction between the two scummies. If anything, this should finally convince everyone we aren't both scum, right? On March 02 2012 22:14 k2hd wrote: Speaking of DoYouHas, I had him pegged as town earlier, and still do. He makes constructive posts to foster discussion among town, and when he pushes somebody, he has plenty of reasoning to back it up. He believes that chocolate is town, as I do, and was against a gumshoe lynch. It's also difficult to really link him in with any potential mafia buddies. What I mean by this is that he has closely scrutinised posts by multiple players, and does not seem to be more or less friendly to any player in the game/agreeing with anyone prematurely. Did you point this out on purpose to make him look better incase someone caught up to you and Alderan? You just keep talking about your townie reads all game long, that is still not helpful. On March 02 2012 22:14 k2hd wrote: Now for my thoughts on gumshoe's lynch. The original reason I didn't want him lynched was because the reason he wanted to leave was boredom. This seemed to clinch his lynch in many people's eyes. If he was mafia though, why would he say this? Mafia have been doing well in this game, creating an uncertain town atmosphere with cases flying everywhere. If he was mafia, he would have been winning, and town are playing into their hands (hopefully we can change this from now on obviously). Why would he ever say that he was bored if he was mafia, and want to leave, unless he was a legitimately bored townie? This is all just speculative of course, but I suppose it was just a feeling. The fact that gumshoe ended up flipping green doesn't make this look any better to me, I still don't like how you are theorycrafting with such "outside" reasoning. You even say yourself it's just speculative stuff, but you still keep bringing it up. Why? On March 03 2012 11:36 k2hd wrote: I have just skimmed through everything and will go back for a more detailed look, but I'd just like to ask everyone in general how DoYouHas is going to be handled. It seems cases on him are springing up, but how are these cases going to be debated and addressed if he's not even going to be here to defend himself? Are you genuinely confused or just worried that your scumbuddy would not be able to defend himself? I think everyone should be smart enough to realize that if someone has posted a reason for their absence and people are jumping on it, then some people on that bandwagon are up to no good. The cases should be evaluated, if they are convincing and good enough to make everyone agree that he is scum, lynch. If not, then wait until more information is gained and lynch someone that is more likely scum. On March 04 2012 13:35 k2hd wrote: In response to zelblade: Despite the pressure on him, I am still not totally convinced that alderan is mafia. He stuck his neck out on day 1 with his case against chocolate (this is I believe the first case made in the whole game), and I don't see why mafia would do this. He drove a lot of discussion on day 1, and I don't see why mafia would want to do this, rather than letting discussion stagnate or focus on the wrong things (we spent a LOT of time debating the merits of a soft deadline). He was bringing the spotlight onto himself, increasing the chance that his posting would be scrutinised more closely (which happened). You again bring up how someone was FIRST to something. It. Doesn't. F*cking. Matter! >_> Why would mafia only want to hide if they are able to take control of the town by being active posters, gaining everyone's trust, and leading them from mislynch to another? I also like the two "and I don't see why mafia would want to do this", after each other. On March 04 2012 13:35 k2hd wrote: Btw, chocolate, can you not post like that (your phagga case). It was extremely hard to read. Still believe chocolate is town because I doubt mafia team would let him make cases like that... Why would they not? Not the first time the "newbie town" - card would be pulled, it's surprisingly common. You are pushing for this townyness way too hard in my opinion. | ||
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TestSubject893
United States774 Posts
Skimming over the thread, it looks like the general consensus is to lynch is Alderan, who, like I stated before, is high on the list of likely mafia for me. I'm trying to make time to properly catch up and respond to the posts that I promised I would (like this one), but I'm still really busy and can't promise I'll be caught up until tomorrow night. ##Vote: Alderan | ||
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JekyllAndHyde
42 Posts
He's already at 6 votes unless I miscalculated, and that's enough unless someone changes their vote. (We are 11 total at the moment if I'm right?) Alderan, do you think you can finish your case on Sloosh in 30 minutes or less? I'd like to see it as I am currently working on a case against him as well. /Jekyll | ||
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
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