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On April 08 2011 09:50 Alaric wrote:
I'd rather get vehicle plating first, as I noticed most of my non-BO losses are from either:
- losing air superiority,
- or not forcing engagements often enough, and since as numbers grow marines become better against hellions I don't have enough of those to kill all the marines, spelling doom on my long-to-build army
Also, whatever happens if your opponent goes bio he'll likely get infantery weapons soon enough (armor would be a waste, unless he can set up some marauder/viking, as hellions do too much damage to marines for 1 armor to matter), drastically increasing his bio's efficiency against your army.
As ship's plating is less likely to be of use (there should be almost nothing to shoot air when your banshees waltz in) while hellions will always tank hits on their kamikaze run, vehicle plating seems more important to me, even vital if you go for too long without "trading" armies (of course you don't want to trade with a slowly-building, expensive army against marines!).
Hellions in mass are great vs marines in mass, and hellions reinforce just as fast as marines considering the extra 5 seconds it takes to build they make up for with movement to the front lines much sooner.
Aim your hellions at their center mass your hellions will run up and roast a ton. DON'T let the Ai micro your hellions for you. The Ai will fire at max range and make a horrible concave for hellions that should be considered a melee unit in this situation.
Consider getting amazing concaves with Hellions. When you see the enemy ball move toward you, move a few hellions around it to the reinforcement path, this will prevent a pressure push. Also, more than just cutting off the reinforcement path, consider getting into a huge surround (read: awesome concave) in wider open areas like center of Shattered Temple for instance.
All the MOVEMNT you see professionals do with MUTALISKs try to emulate with hellions. Watch Idra move/position his mutas in ZvT. Cutting reinforcements is so solid.
Now consider the massive MMM ball, Moving towards your base, you can kite with banshees sense marines will never be able to have 6 range (abusing cliffs to negate stims). The longer it takes them to get to you the more likely your hellion concave will be advantageous and the more free damage your banshees, and vikings (if they get medivacs) will do.
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I hate iechoics tvt and tvp builds. The more I use them, the more the ladder throws diamond players at me. How can I be a lazy noob if hellion harass and tech switches forces dynamic games which destroys most players.
Damn you iechoic!
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Well if I don't get a huge surround I tend to feel that the first attack will be of the uttermost importance: if I don't kill enough marines, they'll generally kill a lot of hellions in the delay between 2 attacks thanks to stim, and end up winning the fight by a sufficient margin.
Then again, I only produce out of 2 reactored factories in most situation, being on that and 3 starports (2 techlab, one reactor) on 2 bases. When I get an early 3rd I generally have established a huge lead so it's not relevant.
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The important part of attacking out in the open with hellions I that you need "retreat space" between attacks.
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GUYS
I am SO FRUSTRATED
Just, tell me some clear way to fucking kill this build. I am literraly so angry of this build, i dont know how to kill this.
"play better" doesnt cut it, that line is so vague. I need exact game plan to fucking kill this.
I use word "fuck" alot because of i am so angry.
User was warned for this post
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because of this stupid build, i always open reaper after 1st marine, get a preemptive factory, swap on tech lab from barracks.
scout with reaper
if i suspect he's going for it: get siege tech, park first siege near CC, start 2nd CC right away. then i get starport + 1 viking, ebay, spam 3-4 turrets, oversaturate my main and go from there.
last dude trying this sh1t called me a map hacker
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On April 09 2011 18:57 Axeinst wrote:
GUYS
I am SO FRUSTRATED
Just, tell me some clear way to fucking kill this build. I am literraly so angry of this build, i dont know how to kill this.
"play better" doesnt cut it, that line is so vague. I need exact game plan to fucking kill this.
I use word "fuck" alot because of i am so angry.
It's a build that depends on low HP slow attack speed units to hold the ground while low hp high cost units shoot from the air.
Treat it like you would treat MutaBaneLing
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Muta/ling/bling is not same thing even though people often refers to it.
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hello, im a former 3700masterseu terran and am almost top200 atm and ive been using this build for the past months or so.
i always loved the hellion drops because its not that all inish but gives you an opportunity to win the game directly but if you dont you still can make enough damage to pay for it so its exactly what i love.
a few weeks ago i started to lose more than before with it becaude its kinda easy to scout and people understood how to be solid against it with turrets tanks and marauders plus marunes in the back or just annoy me with fast cloak banshee + whatever defense they got (even if i won most of these, it doesnt feel right to put myself in such retarded positions).
so i brainstormed for a bit and came up with what i find to be a much better build.
here are the basics:
-normal terran opening
-get 2nd refinery before the depot
-get factory before the depot
-make depot before an scv (cut an scv for some seconds), dont forget the mule
-make a techlab on the rax and fly it
-swap fact, get hellion, blue flame and a starport asap and a supply depot
-get a reactor on rax asap
-supply depot before the starport, continuous hellion production
-starport on reactor, get viking + medivac
-get anotger starport
-swap factory and starport
you now have a reactored factory which is like 2 factories, you have a viking to survive the early banshee in time, and can now make banshees or a raven. if he scouted you, he has no idea wether you go hellion drop, tank marine push, tank marine viking expand . he didnt see "2 fact 2 starport", you can do damage and transition into your unit comp as usual. even there, he just saw a hellion drop, is he sure you wont play it standard? it punishes bad scouting and greedy "i am safe coz he gets reactor marine" builds. you waste less ressources early on on facilities to make everyting fit better, and make it harder to scout. you can add factories or starports to your desire after you have expanded, i personaly favor a heavy air early bcs build, thats how i like it (bcs are amazing now).
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On April 09 2011 18:57 Axeinst wrote:
GUYS
I am SO FRUSTRATED
Just, tell me some clear way to fucking kill this build. I am literraly so angry of this build, i dont know how to kill this.
"play better" doesnt cut it, that line is so vague. I need exact game plan to fucking kill this.
I use word "fuck" alot because of i am so angry.
User was warned for this post
Proxy a rax after your fac goes up, lift it and use it to scout. If you see 2 factories and/or bflame researching get a tank with siege mode, park it near your mineral line. Get a port, second CC(inbase), and eng bay+turrets against the banshees (Raven + Viking and your starting marines would probably be better but I dunno if you can keep them alive). Secure your expo with a second tank, then start massing thors and use excess minerals for your own hellis. Push while setting up your third, you should probably raze his nat or at least force him to lift off. Switch to mass vikings yourself to couner the incoming BCs.
I never lost to this build, it's really quite gimmicky.
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On March 11 2011 09:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:33 Enforcerone wrote:
This is a fucking rediculously stupidly build..
All i get in ladder now is people who spam air so to get upper hand in this the one who makes more vikings wins and u have to spam vikings whole game because both are trying to win the air battle.
Fucking stupid idea and 100 times worse than tanks.
Thanks for ruining TvT.
Hope this stupid idea will wear OUT soon! No you don't need to do that at all. This build is a strong build if you haven't ever played against it before or don't know how to build a strong unit composition of marine/tank/viking/med or hellion/tank/viking/raven/thor. If you are going to go bio, you're fine with just marine/marauder/medivac and micro. Then you just add in some thors and it doesn't matter how many vikings they have. If you go mech, same deal. You can build some vikings and then entirely switch to ground thor/tank/hellion and you'll have a huge ground advantage you can usually just win the game from always having the stronger army. And in some of those situations, the opponent will try to be "smart" and stop building vikings because he sees you aren't contesting air control anymore, and then you can just start building lots of vikings/ravens yourself and you have both air and ground control then, while all they have are hellions.  Also, versus almost anyone that goes OFFENSIVE banshee hellion two fact two port off of one base, you can always have your expansion up way sooner than them and just defend for a free advantage literally every game. I was playing this style ages b4 the cat was let out of the bag about it lol but I rarely post TvT replays/strategy cause i enjoy a 90%+ win% TvT ^_^ it's a good solid build order counter to 1 rax FE Terrans because of mobility, but it's very flimsy if the person knows that you're doing it. Just play defensive and accumulate marine/tank or marine/hellion and you're fine. Also, you can leave 1 tank at each of your CC's and hellions aren't gonna do jack shiot to your mineral line if you're careful  Some people over exaggerating this play style. It's a nice style but people that are dying to it are losing mostly because they have little to no experience playing against it.
So this build is not solid at all if it goes very flimsy after scouting and knowing what to do?
Doesnt sound solid build for me. People often claim iEchoic-build to be solid though.
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If anyone know how to execute iEchoic build well, then contact me. I need to practise against it.
Add me
Kirigi 578
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Im pretty sure mech will demolish this so will mass marauder/viking/raven.
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On April 09 2011 20:05 Axeinst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:58 avilo wrote:On March 11 2011 09:33 Enforcerone wrote:
This is a fucking rediculously stupidly build..
All i get in ladder now is people who spam air so to get upper hand in this the one who makes more vikings wins and u have to spam vikings whole game because both are trying to win the air battle.
Fucking stupid idea and 100 times worse than tanks.
Thanks for ruining TvT.
Hope this stupid idea will wear OUT soon! No you don't need to do that at all. This build is a strong build if you haven't ever played against it before or don't know how to build a strong unit composition of marine/tank/viking/med or hellion/tank/viking/raven/thor. If you are going to go bio, you're fine with just marine/marauder/medivac and micro. Then you just add in some thors and it doesn't matter how many vikings they have. If you go mech, same deal. You can build some vikings and then entirely switch to ground thor/tank/hellion and you'll have a huge ground advantage you can usually just win the game from always having the stronger army. And in some of those situations, the opponent will try to be "smart" and stop building vikings because he sees you aren't contesting air control anymore, and then you can just start building lots of vikings/ravens yourself and you have both air and ground control then, while all they have are hellions. Also, versus almost anyone that goes OFFENSIVE banshee hellion two fact two port off of one base, you can always have your expansion up way sooner than them and just defend for a free advantage literally every game. I was playing this style ages b4 the cat was let out of the bag about it lol but I rarely post TvT replays/strategy cause i enjoy a 90%+ win% TvT ^_^ it's a good solid build order counter to 1 rax FE Terrans because of mobility, but it's very flimsy if the person knows that you're doing it. Just play defensive and accumulate marine/tank or marine/hellion and you're fine. Also, you can leave 1 tank at each of your CC's and hellions aren't gonna do jack shiot to your mineral line if you're careful Some people over exaggerating this play style. It's a nice style but people that are dying to it are losing mostly because they have little to no experience playing against it. So this build is not solid at all if it goes very flimsy after scouting and knowing what to do? Doesnt sound solid build for me. People often claim iEchoic-build to be solid though.
It isn't. Once you get some matches under your belt against it, it becomes very easy to beat.
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So people lie to me, including iEchoic. So this build is gimmicky all-in instead of solid way to play TvT?
It makes sense, it feels that that build has not taken off at all in higher levels. Only hyberdup used it once.
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On April 09 2011 20:13 Beastyqt wrote:
Im pretty sure mech will demolish this so will mass marauder/viking/raven.
I win every TvT against this build. Sim city with Thor hellion and a few Tanks and it's a slow but sure death for the opponent. Just watch out for expansions and possible Ravens (add 1-2 Ghosts). Or just build a couple of hidden reactor starports for a lol.
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On April 10 2011 00:45 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 20:05 Axeinst wrote:On March 11 2011 09:58 avilo wrote:On March 11 2011 09:33 Enforcerone wrote:
This is a fucking rediculously stupidly build..
All i get in ladder now is people who spam air so to get upper hand in this the one who makes more vikings wins and u have to spam vikings whole game because both are trying to win the air battle.
Fucking stupid idea and 100 times worse than tanks.
Thanks for ruining TvT.
Hope this stupid idea will wear OUT soon! No you don't need to do that at all. This build is a strong build if you haven't ever played against it before or don't know how to build a strong unit composition of marine/tank/viking/med or hellion/tank/viking/raven/thor. If you are going to go bio, you're fine with just marine/marauder/medivac and micro. Then you just add in some thors and it doesn't matter how many vikings they have. If you go mech, same deal. You can build some vikings and then entirely switch to ground thor/tank/hellion and you'll have a huge ground advantage you can usually just win the game from always having the stronger army. And in some of those situations, the opponent will try to be "smart" and stop building vikings because he sees you aren't contesting air control anymore, and then you can just start building lots of vikings/ravens yourself and you have both air and ground control then, while all they have are hellions. Also, versus almost anyone that goes OFFENSIVE banshee hellion two fact two port off of one base, you can always have your expansion up way sooner than them and just defend for a free advantage literally every game. I was playing this style ages b4 the cat was let out of the bag about it lol but I rarely post TvT replays/strategy cause i enjoy a 90%+ win% TvT ^_^ it's a good solid build order counter to 1 rax FE Terrans because of mobility, but it's very flimsy if the person knows that you're doing it. Just play defensive and accumulate marine/tank or marine/hellion and you're fine. Also, you can leave 1 tank at each of your CC's and hellions aren't gonna do jack shiot to your mineral line if you're careful Some people over exaggerating this play style. It's a nice style but people that are dying to it are losing mostly because they have little to no experience playing against it. So this build is not solid at all if it goes very flimsy after scouting and knowing what to do? Doesnt sound solid build for me. People often claim iEchoic-build to be solid though. It isn't. Once you get some matches under your belt against it, it becomes very easy to beat.
True I mean I've had people do this build against me and killed tons of my SCVs and despit eall the SCV kills they can never just move in and kill Marine/Tank/Medivac especially if Terran gets bunkers and the Banshees are easily nullified by turrets and a Raven, That plus the Marine/Tank/Medivac player will always be out-expanding the iEchoic build player so he can quickly reproduce SCVs and if your going Marine/Tank/Medivac your first 2 expos are probably going to be Orbital Commands so you have a ton of mules. And when your Death push comes if you slow push with the tanks after getting close to his base he can't really push you even with a lot of Yamato Cannon because your marines will shred his Air and when his hellions come to kill the Marines they enter the Siege Tank range and if you've been upgrading Tanks 2 shot hellions so they die rather quickly.
Against MMM this build would probably destroy but against the Korean GSL style Marine/Tank/Medivac into BCs we see often it seems to fail no matter how much SCV damage you do.
Most of the times I've lost to this build where because the Terran decided to just get tanks instead of banshees to follow up or when the hellion drop got ALL my SCVs and I just didn't want to ruff it out.
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On April 10 2011 01:45 Axeinst wrote:
So people lie to me, including iEchoic. So this build is gimmicky all-in instead of solid way to play TvT?
It makes sense, it feels that that build has not taken off at all in higher levels. Only hyberdup used it once.
I'm not a Terran, but that was quite a leap in logic.
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On April 10 2011 02:17 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 01:45 Axeinst wrote:
So people lie to me, including iEchoic. So this build is gimmicky all-in instead of solid way to play TvT?
It makes sense, it feels that that build has not taken off at all in higher levels. Only hyberdup used it once. I'm not a Terran, but that was quite a leap in logic.
how? if its easy to beat when scouted, then it cannot be solid
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United States7483 Posts
On April 10 2011 02:23 Axeinst wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 02:17 ManyCookies wrote:On April 10 2011 01:45 Axeinst wrote:
So people lie to me, including iEchoic. So this build is gimmicky all-in instead of solid way to play TvT?
It makes sense, it feels that that build has not taken off at all in higher levels. Only hyberdup used it once. I'm not a Terran, but that was quite a leap in logic. how? if its easy to beat when scouted, then it cannot be solid
Because it's not true that it's easy to beat when scouted, try reading the opening post and the rest of the thread.
People just aren't playing it right. If you do what the above player above mentioned (get siege tanks in your lines and start pumping thors), then the iechoic player is supposed to out expand you while you're turtling and get battlecruisers, which he already has a nice tech lead on doing. He'll also be doing banshee harass in the meantime.
The idea behind the build is to do economic damage if the enemy opens himself to it, and if not, to expand while he's pinned. If he moves out at all, you can do economic damage, guaranteed if you control reasonably well. If he doesn't, you still get an econ lead, and you have the air advantage, so you can bring out battlecruisers, which are impossible to deal with without vikings, which he won't have because he's dumping everything into tanks/thors.
The reality of it is, assuming both players are playing well, that tech swaps will be frequent, and there is no special trick to winning.
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EPT
