EPTThe thing how you described it, cannot be true because otherwise that build would be invincible.
I refuse to believe iEchoic build to be really answer to everything, so I wanna ask question: how to defeat it?
[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 43
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Axeinst
Belize281 Posts
The thing how you described it, cannot be true because otherwise that build would be invincible. I refuse to believe iEchoic build to be really answer to everything, so I wanna ask question: how to defeat it? | ||
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CompanionQue
United States59 Posts
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Axeinst
Belize281 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On April 09 2011 20:13 Beastyqt wrote: Im pretty sure mech will demolish this so will mass marauder/viking/raven. Sure. Now the question is: how will you get mass marauders/vikings (a midgame composition) against this opening ? The "How do I get here" logic. On April 10 2011 02:08 Sapphire.lux wrote: I win every TvT against this build. Sim city with Thor hellion and a few Tanks and it's a slow but sure death for the opponent. Just watch out for expansions and possible Ravens (add 1-2 Ghosts). Or just build a couple of hidden reactor starports for a lol.  Same question here. Do you rush your thor, or transition to it? What do you refer to by "slow death"? What do you intend to do against expansions, considering the build is tailored at map control? I agree with the raven part, though, as PDD is about the only reliable way to kill thors without BCs once there are more than 2 in the army. On April 10 2011 02:11 Raiznhell wrote: True I mean I've had people do this build against me and killed tons of my SCVs and despit eall the SCV kills they can never just move in and kill Marine/Tank/Medivac especially if Terran gets bunkers and the Banshees are easily nullified by turrets and a Raven, That plus the Marine/Tank/Medivac player will always be out-expanding the iEchoic build player so he can quickly reproduce SCVs and if your going Marine/Tank/Medivac your first 2 expos are probably going to be Orbital Commands so you have a ton of mules. And when your Death push comes if you slow push with the tanks after getting close to his base he can't really push you even with a lot of Yamato Cannon because your marines will shred his Air and when his hellions come to kill the Marines they enter the Siege Tank range and if you've been upgrading Tanks 2 shot hellions so they die rather quickly. Medivacs wouldn't heal marines fast enough to effectively counter the hellions' damage (they may take 3 shots to kill instead of 2, which is mitigated by the splash, hence the "effectively"), not mentioning the possibility for vikings to snipe them unhindered. Now, some questions: - What makes you so sure that this plan will "always outexpand the Echoic build"? - If a push (please don't mix up an attack and a push) will indeed generally kill the base it goes to, what about the reactions of your opponent to a slow push? - What makes you think marines would "shred air" when said air is supposed to be armor-upgraded BCs (since you say even yamato won't cut it, there are BCs)? - Why do you take it for granted that hellions will attack your marines only when your tanks are sieged? I'm far from saying this build is flawless. Firstly, it requires an advantage over your opponent, be it in bases, upgrades, or tech (BCs), the most obvious being the air dominance that will take the game away from you if you lose it. The opening is tailored to net you said advantage, and it's up to you to make it snowball from there. The build isn't flawless, but if you are to criticize it, saying "hey, it's easy to beat it with x, trust me I'm master league material!", then please back up your statements. | ||
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scrawwww
4 Posts
Go standard and sim city. Sim city is a good idea TvT Scout. See 2 Factory with 1 barrack. Grab ghost academy and 1 more refinery and constantly produce ghosts and make your way to 3 barracks with 3 techlabs and constantly produce ghosts out of 1 and marauders out of the other 2. Make ghosts and marauders and get conc. shell. Your army will always win if he has less than 3 banshees. So push often with at most 3-5 ghosts. Win. That enough? Ghosts beat banshees because banshees are light. You will ALWAYS have at least 2 more ghosts because of constant ghost production. You can support it. If he's stupid enough to get cloak? EMP. Hellions do little damage against ghosts and marauders because ghosts are psionic and marauders are armored. Push often, push early and you'll win before the 10 minute mark. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On April 10 2011 04:42 scrawwww wrote: That enough? I never said it was unbeatable—even if I'm not a fan of so specific "counter-builds"—I was only asking the "anti" to not make useless assumptions. As far as I'm concerned, I feel that I have enough understanding of the build to fight if off with itself—starport timings are somewhat important, regarding cutting hellions or not to get them up faster: delay the second starport to get more hellions, so you have some to defend at home while filling your medivac. If your opponent went for the fast starports he'll lack defenses home and you'll be able to do far more damage, even potentially winning the game there. The late second starport isn't much of a problem since this build's banshees are late too. Going for a more standard response, I'd say simcity and not taking your nat early are good things to do, yes. Expanding faster than Echoic's air/hellion is easy, but not that useful if you lose so much scvs that during the time it takes you to catch up to his count he expands too. 1/1/1 or CC before starport should give you a viking before the medivac drop, allowing you to try to intercept it, or at least spot it and be there to get the hellions. Then, it's up to you to get a raven or turrets for the incoming banshee, if needed (though after such a net loss I wouldn't expect a good player to invest into cloak). After that, if you can snatch air dominance from him, it's over, so I guess the most important thing is to be on the look-out for more drops, and to make a point to take your natural's geysers before your opponent. It'll open you up to any kind of marauder/viking, thor/tanks or whatever you feel like is appropried. More than a precise build, the key to fighting this build off is a defensive mindset, much like in PvT where you know that if you don't let your opponent put you behind, you'll naturally get ahead eventually. Of course, it's only true for the initial harass. After that, it's up to you to out-viking or thor rush him. But you'll be ahead from this point on, and that's the most important. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
I lost my first hellion scout because I wasn't paying enough attention to it (never ever see tanks that freaking fast...) Anyways, I scouted the super fast second gas and expected banshees, so I went faster starport.. he still had a viking out when my first banshee popped. Would a replay be of use, and has anyone ever seen this very strange all-in rush before? | ||
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Ironsights
United States196 Posts
On April 10 2011 08:58 CatNzHat wrote: After using this build for a few months quite frequently in my TvTs, I finally hit a strategy that seems to kill me.... Super fast second gas before orbital 1tank w/ siege 2 marine push I lost my first hellion scout because I wasn't paying enough attention to it (never ever see tanks that freaking fast...) Anyways, I scouted the super fast second gas and expected banshees, so I went faster starport.. he still had a viking out when my first banshee popped. Would a replay be of use, and has anyone ever seen this very strange all-in rush before? Keeping in mind that I am currently gold league, yes I have seen this push. It wasn't too hard to stop at my level (read: it was probably poorly executed) but I waited for the tank to seige, rushed down to burn the marines and then poked at the tank inside its minimum range. Sure, it unseiged and killed the hellions, but by then I had popped a tank of my own and with an scv buddy my tank won the fight. This was some time ago, and I did not save the replay, but that was my experience. I have had trouble on a few occassions with a really fast 2-1-1 build that pushed with 1 viking, 2-3 tanks with seige, and marines. When I scouted it, I thought I would be facing a seige timing push and so grabbed a couple extra hellions and strove for banshees. My idea was to burn up the mariens at all costs and then laugh at the seige tanks with my banshees...the viking gave the tanks sight and pushed my banshees back, I had no cloak...I held for a while but ultimately he got more vikings faster than I expected and he ended up air-dominant...which we all know ends the iEchoic build. Again, these are low-mid league experiences...take them for what they are worth if you are above me. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
you'd have to tech to bcs on 2 base or do some serious damage before the thors come out | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:54 Itsmedudeman wrote: how would this build go against thors? not thor rushes, just having like 3 thors in the midgame sounds like it would demolish this build since I can't even imagine how many banshees and helions you would need to just take out 1 you'd have to tech to bcs on 2 base or do some serious damage before the thors come out The idea of the build is that by the time he goes thor you're going battlecruiser. Not to mention that with thors you do not have the mobility to secure more than 2, maybe three bases. This build is very tough to go up against, what I find beats it is just out playing the opponent with marine tank viking, this requires extremely careful micro. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 10 2011 03:00 Axeinst wrote: So you are telling me, that when playing perfectly this build will win everything that is not iEchoic-build? The thing how you described it, cannot be true because otherwise that build would be invincible. I refuse to believe iEchoic build to be really answer to everything, so I wanna ask question: how to defeat it? You aren't understanding what everyone is saying. Firstly, if you play any decent build PERFECTLY, you'll win every game against an opponent who doesn't play perfectly. The fact is, it's impossible to play perfectly, without making a single minor mistake anywhere, and to eek out every tiny edge theoretically possible. So to answer that question, if you played the iEchoic build perfectly, yes, you win, but the same is true for any other build. Builds are tools to let you play the game the way you want to play it, without getting you killed. This is a build to focus almost entirely on being able to get a better economy than your enemy, either by doing econ damage or by out-expanding him. The build focuses almost entirely on air units, with hellions to clear out marines and for their econ harass potential. Also, any time you say "refuse to believe", you might want to rethink your thought process, it shows a clearly closed mind. You can say "I believe this is wrong", but "refuse to believe" means you'll just ignore evidence when it's shown to you. So how do you beat the iechoic build? You play better than he does. | ||
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( bush
321 Posts
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
iEchoic mentions some transitions that stick with the MOBILE theme, but there is nothing wrong with getting tanks or any other freakin units you want. Seems like such a simple concept... | ||
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Axeinst
Belize281 Posts
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On April 10 2011 15:05 padfoota wrote: From what I see its just a bunch of players saying play better than the opponent. That rule applies to ALL builds, from 6 pool to BC rushing. You play better than he does. Thats not solving the problem at all, but it just adds more credibility to his build as there isnt a definite counter, but more of a micro war. Depends on execution.A better player will always beat the poorly executing player. | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
Most terran players are really bad at using mobility effectively, which means that marine/tank/turret play will always win out in the end. The drops are not scary at all if you scout em and stick marines on the side with a tank in the mineral line. Then a small transition into thor tank, with maybe like 2 thors and 3 tanks, will most likely scare any hellion/banshee army away and have him rushing to marauders or siege tanks. Scanning his starports is also usually a nice idea. If you see he's skimping on vikings at any time, 3 reactored starports will usually overwhelm his viking count while you cover the transition with marines. The hellions are also only good vs armies that are clumped up...their dps without splash is laughable. The build does have certain advantages over certain builds, but only the better players will be able to take advantage of them. | ||
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abaitor
England45 Posts
But it also works in the opposite direction, people are saying, "hmm what if you do x, or y, or z" and there's always an answer regardless of how unviable it is. If this build really was as strong as people like to believe then I think we'd be seeing it a lot more on the ladder, and we'd be seeing it at least once or twice in tournaments. The fact of the matter is, yes the iechoic build can adapt to anything you throw at it, but which good standard build just flat out loses to something and you just hope and pray he doesn't go for it? None that are popular, however, having the potential to adapt to something, doesn't mean you will in a game. People seem to believe fog of war doesn't exist, and that you can immediately respond with whatever 'counters' their reaction (works both ways, marauder push vs reasonably unscoutable early iechoic is good yes but will lose to almost anything else, and expecting to be able to have bcs out the second the non-iechoic player goes thor, is also good in theory). I just wish people could discuss the build rather than taking a side and blindly believing in it. There are weaknesses and strengths of the build and every other build, just embrace them and discuss them rather than trying to deny their existance. | ||
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Elanshin
Australia216 Posts
That said, as the iechoic build player, you MUST stop them scouting your build too easily (namely scv running in, reaper running in and early scan) so place your building accordingly and scout their base, be very wary of helion dropping if you spot good sim city (no easy access to mineral lines). Personally if i am playing the build and i get scouted, i will still "drop" but also drop an expo ASAP. He will be preoccupied making himself helion/banshee proof giving you the time to expo. | ||
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