EPTAm I timing wrong? Against hard I never have any trouble defending this first push.
Sorry if this is a repeat, I looked through alot of the pages and didn't see it.
Thanks.
[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 45
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sunbeam22
4 Posts
Am I timing wrong? Against hard I never have any trouble defending this first push. Sorry if this is a repeat, I looked through alot of the pages and didn't see it. Thanks. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
On April 13 2011 02:40 sunbeam22 wrote: I'm a fairly newbie terran player (switched from zerg) and have focused on trying to master this build as my standard TvT BO. I'm practicing against very hard AI and for the life of me, I cannot counter the initial push of marauders and marines. Usually the comp pushes with 6-8 marines and 3-4 marauders and a ST. At this point (even though I'm following the BO pretty well and have been macroing correctly) I'm just getting my starport up, the number of hellions I have melt against that force. Am I timing wrong? Against hard I never have any trouble defending this first push. Sorry if this is a repeat, I looked through alot of the pages and didn't see it. Thanks. High level computers get bonus money, don't practise against a computer unless your just practising execution of your build against an easy one. Just ladder. | ||
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antilyon
Brazil2546 Posts
On April 13 2011 02:40 sunbeam22 wrote: I'm a fairly newbie terran player (switched from zerg) and have focused on trying to master this build as my standard TvT BO. I'm practicing against very hard AI and for the life of me, I cannot counter the initial push of marauders and marines. Usually the comp pushes with 6-8 marines and 3-4 marauders and a ST. At this point (even though I'm following the BO pretty well and have been macroing correctly) I'm just getting my starport up, the number of hellions I have melt against that force. Am I timing wrong? Against hard I never have any trouble defending this first push. Sorry if this is a repeat, I looked through alot of the pages and didn't see it. Thanks. If you are new to terran i don't recommend this build as your standard TvT, since it's quite micro intensive and you will need much more game sense to execute it. Also, like the user above said, don't practice against har computers. | ||
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Washow
Korea (South)119 Posts
That said though, you are really really late if you are losing to very hard AI with their initial push. You should have your banshee out when their force reaches your ramp. I actually lost to very hard AI a few times while practicing this but after a few tries I could get a banshee out by the time they reach my ramp so I could win. Hellions kill all the marines while banshees make the marauders run away. | ||
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
I am really looking forward to using early blue flame hellions in a 2v2 TZvTX matchup in a similar fashion, as the hellions can fill the role of banelings (except being faster and not always exploding during the attack). If my zerg team mate pumps speedlings then the early to mid game would hopefully feel like us maintaining map control with very fast units that can take out any ground army, while harassing later with mutas, hellion drops, banshees and ravens. | ||
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bruteMax
Canada339 Posts
On April 13 2011 02:40 sunbeam22 wrote: I'm a fairly newbie terran player (switched from zerg) and have focused on trying to master this build as my standard TvT BO. I'm practicing against very hard AI and for the life of me, I cannot counter the initial push of marauders and marines. Usually the comp pushes with 6-8 marines and 3-4 marauders and a ST. At this point (even though I'm following the BO pretty well and have been macroing correctly) I'm just getting my starport up, the number of hellions I have melt against that force. Am I timing wrong? Against hard I never have any trouble defending this first push. Sorry if this is a repeat, I looked through alot of the pages and didn't see it. Thanks. You should only practice against the AI to practice build orders. With that in mind, do not practice against anything harder than 'Hard' AI, as otherwise you will be compromising the purpose of practicing vs. the AI by being forced to react to an unnaturally high number of units early in the game. As others have said, the 'Very Hard' and 'Insane' AI have production advantages. As an aside, the Blizzard AI isn't very good. You might want to consider the YABOT build order custom maps to practice against more realistic AI opponents. Again don't practice against anything harder than 'medium' or 'hard' level AI since you're not necessarily trying to win, just practicing getting comfortable with a build and all the other little things you should be doing (scouting, taking Xel'Naga towers, etc). | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On April 13 2011 03:27 statikg wrote: High level computers get bonus money, don't practise against a computer unless your just practising execution of your build against an easy one. Just ladder. I thought only "Insane" had a resource cheat. I thought the Blizzard AI for "Very Hard" had no resource bonus. YABOT's AI (I think its using Green Tea underneath) uses resource cheats past Medium difficulty. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On April 13 2011 02:40 sunbeam22 wrote: I'm a fairly newbie terran player (switched from zerg) and have focused on trying to master this build as my standard TvT BO. I'm practicing against very hard AI and for the life of me, I cannot counter the initial push of marauders and marines. Usually the comp pushes with 6-8 marines and 3-4 marauders and a ST. At this point (even though I'm following the BO pretty well and have been macroing correctly) I'm just getting my starport up, the number of hellions I have melt against that force. Am I timing wrong? Against hard I never have any trouble defending this first push. Sorry if this is a repeat, I looked through alot of the pages and didn't see it. Thanks. Versus "Very Hard" on ladder maps, you should be able to have a banshee popping out by the time the first push hits. You may have to do 1 port instead of 2 ports immediately. Regardless, if you're just putting up your first port when the push hits, you're way behind on the build. Anyway, be sure to pull back with hellions when the marines die and let your banshee knock down a few marauders before you clean it up. Also, one bunker can help alot. I'm not convinced you can blindly do the build vs. an early bio push or all-in, especially. | ||
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Fyodor
Canada971 Posts
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Ironsights
United States196 Posts
On April 13 2011 02:40 sunbeam22 wrote: I'm a fairly newbie terran player (switched from zerg) and have focused on trying to master this build as my standard TvT BO. I'm practicing against very hard AI and for the life of me, I cannot counter the initial push of marauders and marines. Usually the comp pushes with 6-8 marines and 3-4 marauders and a ST. At this point (even though I'm following the BO pretty well and have been macroing correctly) I'm just getting my starport up, the number of hellions I have melt against that force. Am I timing wrong? Against hard I never have any trouble defending this first push. Sorry if this is a repeat, I looked through alot of the pages and didn't see it. Thanks. I do this build almost exclusively in TvT. It has worked woners for me. I am at work and cannot provide a replay, but I will when I get home. The long and short is, if you suffer against rushes, build 1 or 2 seige tanks to defend. It works for me. -------------------- Sorry for the previous brevity, I was forced to leave my PC quickly. I do a variation of iEchoic's build, meant in my mind to assist lower level players such as myself in using this build. I open as stated in the OP, but I use my second "mule" as a scan instead. This happens just about as the Factory finishes its tech lab. At this point I have also built a bunker with 4 marines in it, which though not in the build it helps me hold the wall. If the scan reveals a bio or tnak push, I get 2-3 seige tanks asap, even slowing down my starport if needed. If i see a heavy tank push coming, I'll speed out a banshee or two. If it looks like fast banshee's or drop play, get turrets. And, if it looks like the other terran is fast expanding or teching hard, open with the dropped hellions as usual. This slows the build down slightly, but does allow me to stay in the game long enough to put up a fight. I have a pretty good couple replays saved at home, and will post them tonight when I get home in the hopes of assisting you better. ----------------------- Replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/164794-1v1-terran-delta-quadrant This one is long, but really fun to play. Ends up Thors vs BC/Viking/Banshee...emphasis on Thor vs Battlecruiser. Cruisers win. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/161279-1v1-terran-gutterhulk This one is mass bio against mass air at the end of it, but the tanks completely shut down early bio, proving the validity of my statements. New 4-20-11 Adding another replay because this one really seems to showcase my point. I open as normal, but scout what appears to be a tank push coming. I grab a seige tank at the wall and start preping my BFHellion drop. My marines at the tower spot the incoming push with a viking, so I cancel the drop ship and get a viking of my own. A Tank/Viking struggle ensues and I am able to harass his SCV's since I still have hellions and banshees, plus banshees help force scans and keep tanks in check. I ultimately prevail. I doubt I will update this particular post again, but this seemed very relevant. Happy gaming! | ||
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MarkBolinder
United States7 Posts
this build is crazy awesome. ive lost only 2 games this entire week!!! | ||
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Leraw
Germany7 Posts
ive lost only 2 games this entire week!!! do you mean ALL games or just the TvTs?i wonder if that BO does only work in TvT. Maybe its good in other matchups too. Or even in a 2v2.... | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
Looks like opponent assumes iEchoic from me and begins turtling hard into an expansion. I respond by minimizing ground production and banshee hard, with air support. I fight my way to his reactored starport and manage to destroy it. Final battle is iEchoic versus mass tank with rine/thor/viking/scv support. http://www.mediafire.com/?i433jjzc8ctlvot opponent appears to be a master smurf. | ||
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
===Countered By=== *Simcity/Fortress Build: Build all your production in such a way that Hellions cannot get to the mineral line, plugging holes with supply depots; Hellions are very expensive units and NEED to do economic damage and reduce the marine/ghost count. *Marauder w/ Concussive Shell: Mass Marauders and micro your Marines out of the battle, the Maruaders will easily finish off Hellions even without Stim-pack. *Believe it or not: Reapers kill blue-flame hellions in 1-on-1 battles. *With all the above in mind, once Stim-pack is finished you should have a bigger army and go kill the opponent on 2-3 rax with enough Marines to take out the Banshees. Really all comes down to unit management, making sure the marines hit banshees without being attacked by Hellions and you have a much more cost-effective way of dealing with this build on low tech. And trust me THIS BUILD NEEDS TO DO DAMAGE. Its just too fast for a tech for the early game. | ||
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Allenssmart
19 Posts
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Exactable
Australia263 Posts
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DiracMonopole
United States1555 Posts
Hellions are very expensive units and NEED to do economic damage. Are you perhaps confusing the hellion with just about any other unit in the game. Other than the marine, zergling and workers, it is the cheapest unit in the game. | ||
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
On April 23 2011 15:21 DiracMonopole wrote: Are you perhaps confusing the hellion with just about any other unit in the game. Other than the marine, zergling and workers, it is the cheapest unit in the game. In the case of this build. They are the most massed units an if they dont do enough damage, did not mean just economic, but for a unit you need to mass for this build to work against bio, yes they need to so a lot of damage or they simply cost you too much resources for a very specific role in TvT. I just think that there is a more powerful transition after hellions that can be done instead of two reactor-factories. Or you can just move the marines out of the way of their fire and suddenly you have a lot of problems. I'll be sure to change that. | ||
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MarcH
United Kingdom362 Posts
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
On April 23 2011 13:24 Allenssmart wrote: ok so I love this build very much, it has become my staple for tvt. I use it exclusively every game and I win most of my games. However, i'm stumped as to what to do in an iechoic vs iechoic. what do i make??? or do i just give up and go thor viking. Make more viking than them basically. And you will want to switch to marauders as well. Simcitying helps a lot as well. Not much else too it, just keep air control and counter his unit mix on the ground so he cant get to your SCVs. | ||
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