EPTBut I have an incredible hard time when my opponent ist doing a fast marine/tank push out of one base. One replay of iEchonic says it show how to counter it. But in this game the opponent is going for an fast expand and doesnt make a fast push. Normaly this push comes around the 7 minute mark, and even iEchonic has no Banshee till at least the 9th minute. And without a Banshee the tanks are unstopable. Does anybody has some ideas how to change the buildorder to get save against this push?
[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 46
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flying-egg
10 Posts
But I have an incredible hard time when my opponent ist doing a fast marine/tank push out of one base. One replay of iEchonic says it show how to counter it. But in this game the opponent is going for an fast expand and doesnt make a fast push. Normaly this push comes around the 7 minute mark, and even iEchonic has no Banshee till at least the 9th minute. And without a Banshee the tanks are unstopable. Does anybody has some ideas how to change the buildorder to get save against this push? | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
The quick rine/tank push is a good response to the iEchoic theme. It can be deadly if iEchoic'er doesn't post hellions forward. Map awareness is very important, and you need to threaten the counter attack. Expect to lose some SCV's cause they will most likely be combat units this early in the game. The trick though, is to realize you can kill marines/SCVs much faster than he can. At the seven minute mark you should have about 2 rines, 5 helion (w/ BF), 1 viking, 1 medivac. When you see the push you can use your barracks for couple extra rines, and don't forget to swap starport for banshee as it will be dominant this early in the game. Send your banshee to their base as soon as battle is over. Their composition requires a ball to be effective, so you can bum rush them after battles. | ||
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afk4lifez
United States44 Posts
edit: i've never lost a game to fast thor push / thor drop before | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
On April 26 2011 08:57 afk4lifez wrote: i use a superior version of iechoic which is not only faster, but safer vs early aggressions, better vs fast thor, and gives me higher econ edit: i've never lost a game to fast thor push / thor drop before Somebody give this man a cookie!! Care to elaborate on this super build sir? | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
(As in sucks to have 10 hellions and a Banshee watch helplessly as a single banshee manhandles the mineral line) I was wondering if others were finding this helpful to their play? I'm curious because I'm not certain if the better transition is to build a late 2nd factory or for the barracks to eventually start making a reactor (to switch with the factory when complete) My midgame composition remains the same--Hellion/Banshee heavy expand constant harass. However I'm finding my ability to survive "random fast aggressions" to be much better than before. Anyone else finding this to be true or is this just me? | ||
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sonnyb
Canada18 Posts
On April 26 2011 16:27 lorkac wrote: I've been skipping the 2nd Factory and simply building more marines in the early game with my Barracks and finding my early game play becoming much more robust as I don't feel as mineral starved and I'm not helpless against a fast banshee that I scout too late sometimes. (As in sucks to have 10 hellions and a Banshee watch helplessly as a single banshee manhandles the mineral line) I was wondering if others were finding this helpful to their play? I'm curious because I'm not certain if the better transition is to build a late 2nd factory or for the barracks to eventually start making a reactor (to switch with the factory when complete) My midgame composition remains the same--Hellion/Banshee heavy expand constant harass. However I'm finding my ability to survive "random fast aggressions" to be much better than before. Anyone else finding this to be true or is this just me? That actually sounds decent, I would guess that you'd want the reactor on rax done as soon as blue flame upgrade is complete so you can swap immediately. You'd have more marines & faster starports but sacrificing early hellion count at a critical timing for your own aggression vs certain terran openings. I'm gonna try it out! The faq says: "Q: Why 2facts? Why not just make a reactor? A: 2facts allows you to create 2x hellions while researching preigniter. It removes the inherent danger that comes with using only one factory to produce hellions. 2factories makes you much safer vs 2rax openings and early cheese, and gives you infrastructure for later down the road." If that's the only reason then imo more marines & bunker should make up for it. I've been using this build a lot and I've had to cut hellions after the first 2 off the first 2 factories to get starports up anyway. | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
Key things to note: 0. SCV pivotal in first battle. 1. I would have got rolled without the threat of economy damage. 2. Banshees quite strong vs. a mixed composition. * Huge Blunder! Researched Raven energy upgrade instead of cloak. http://www.mediafire.com/?obs0znraiad1rk2 Game was extremely close but would have favored the mobile style a little more if I got the correct upgrade. I also thought I might have time to get one tank out so my hellion production was hampered big time when i switched factory from reactor to techlab. Opponent disconnects at end, but I believe I was in a commanding position despite the massive damage incurred. Discussion welcome! | ||
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sonnyb
Canada18 Posts
On April 27 2011 13:54 Komsa wrote: Masters rep' close position Shattered Temple. Opponent one base all-in with heavy bio/tank aggression. Key things to note: 0. SCV pivotal in first battle. 1. I would have got rolled without the threat of economy damage. 2. Banshees quite strong vs. a mixed composition. * Huge Blunder! Researched Raven energy upgrade instead of cloak. http://www.mediafire.com/?obs0znraiad1rk2 Game was extremely close but would have favored the mobile style a little more if I got the correct upgrade. I also thought I might have time to get one tank out so my hellion production was hampered big time when i switched factory from reactor to techlab. Opponent disconnects at end, but I believe I was in a commanding position despite the massive damage incurred. Discussion welcome! I watched the replay, just as a note to people that it's not iEchoic build but a 1/1/1 blue flame hellion drop build with an eventual 2nd starport. Lol at raven energy, but yeah you had the game won. | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
Builds are good if you want to think about timings I suppose, but I'm not really on that level yet. When I decided on this build all I wanted was something that didn't completely scream iEchoic's style, but still got me to the same overall plan. | ||
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sonnyb
Canada18 Posts
On April 27 2011 14:50 Komsa wrote: iEchoic's build is just one path to the goal of Hellion and Banshee abuse. It's not the build that allows iEchoic to win but the idea behind the units and their abuses. Builds are good if you want to think about timings I suppose, but I'm not really on that level yet. When I decided on this build all I wanted was something that didn't completely scream iEchoic's style, but still got me to the same overall plan. Yeah I agree, I just thought you should mention you weren't using the exact build as a lot of all-in type rushes can be hard for the iEchoic build to hold, so people might be looking to gain insight there with the exact build. Personally, good execution of the build and the ensuing advantages (doing economic damage or forcing turtle & map control to outexpand) has won me the games, not necessarily the composition which imo is pretty fragile and you can lose the game with one mistake in either decision making, harass multi-tasking all game long, or if they get a good position on you with their units. I was wondering maybe you were trying to do the suggestion above to try 1fact+reactor instead of 2fact. Anyway I made a build in YABOT somewhat similar to your 1fact with the ideas from a few posts above, theorycraft here so far as I have no replays but the idea is to get a quicker 3 hellion blue flame drop before converging with iEchoic. It might be slightly "weaker against cheese/early aggression" as stated in the FAQ, but I think you can hold with good reaction and micro. (E.g. like what you did with scvs in first engagement to fight/repair hellions.) If it's a later 1-base 1/1/1 timing from terran, the build converges so there shouldn't be any problems there, or rather, suffers from the same problems if any. -- tl;dr: goal of build: converge to iEchoic build in OP, with 1fact+reactor & 2starports. Use saved resources from 2nd-fact to get fastest possible 3 hellion blue flame drop while maintaining spirit of the OP. FYI, Not tested fully, idea comes from posts above on this page, and I did not read the entire thread but I've been using iEchoic build/style for a long time at high masters. -10 supply -12 rax -13 ref -15 OC -15 Marine -16 supply (Wall) -16 Refinery -(supply counts discontinued from here - keep making scvs nonstop) -Factory -Marine (Note: I just noticed u can't actually get 2 marines before factory without delaying ur factory or cutting scvs? It's probably done that way because of gas timing, but we save gas on 2nd fact.. not having 2 marines might hinder early game xel naga control.) -Tech Lab on rax -Supply Depot (wall) -Swap first factory onto rax -3 hellions & get preigniter (start poking with first hellion) -Starport (put away from wall with rax/fact for easy swap of first addons... might need to cut scv for a second as the goal is to get the drop asap) -Starport (wall) -Note: Marine/Bunker/(+Supply drop if necessary), or squeeze in depot depending on hellion scout? (to test, might need supply drop regardless, but I think cutting 2nd factory might let you get a depot up) -Reactor on rax -Supply drop(? build hasn't been optimised yet, but this generally flows) -Medivac comes out -> Load 3 hellions (which have been poking/scouting map for xel nagas near opponent's front), drop. -Swap factory onto reactor, starport onto tech lab, -Continue iEchoic style, building starport units based on scouting & drop scouting info Edit: some mistakes in my post | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
With that being said, if you get gas before Barracks you can get Factory immediately after the barracks finishes. http://www.mediafire.com/?qx0051ndxib6pji Here's a BO that seems to be about the quickest BF Helion drop, without too many SCV production bumps. In retrospect I think the 2nd Hellion can be delayed for a couple marines. As the replay shows 4 Hellions are in the drop, which might be overkill. 6:40 Flamin away! | ||
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jlai
Hong Kong63 Posts
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Kostoglotov
France28 Posts
How should this build react against a ghost opening ? The OP doesn't say. | ||
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Allenssmart
19 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 02 2011 01:02 Allenssmart wrote: i like to go gas first with this build. what's wrong with doing that? Then you aren't doing the build. The build order refers to the timings of structures and sequence of construction of various things you want. iEchoic does it in that specific order for a few reasons, there's nothing wrong, persay, with changing it up if it gets you an advantage you want, but just keep in mind that you'll quite likely be weakening the build significantly for various situations. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On April 30 2011 16:38 jlai wrote: Would it be better if i wall off the front if i use this strat? I have been losing to marine + SCVs semi-all in strat. That comes when i only get 1-2 hellion + 2 marines. Especially when it's the location that i scouted last and they wall off. I have no idea they're going 3-4 rax marine all in. They push up the ramp and i have a hard time to defend. As for the wall off idea, I like it--just do it over time and not early on. It's good vs the counterattacks people like do do when they feel desperately behind on econ. As for marine scv all ins--2 Hellions can beat a ridiculous amount of scv/marines due to speed+range advantage. Poke then run poke then run (assuming you were scouting with your first Hellion, you should whittle them down by the time they get to your base. | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
On April 30 2011 18:36 Kostoglotov wrote: I'm currently refining a ghost opening in my TvT, and it gives me hilarious early wins vs the iEchoic build. I use to poke with a reaper/maraudeur/scv/ghost army (1 of each), followed up by more ghosts and later tanks. If there is no bunker, it's a straight-up win. If there is a bunker, well, I suppose I can expand quite early while being very safe, and while teching to thors quite fast. But this is theorycraft, as there is never a bunker. How should this build react against a ghost opening ? The OP doesn't say. You react...with a Bunker. If you're doing any sort of tech, you make a Bunker to hold your ramp unless you're absolutely sure there's no aggression coming. Nothing special about the Ghost, a 3 Rax or maybe even 2 Rax would also straight up kill this (and any 1/1/1 build) without a Bunker. | ||
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jlai
Hong Kong63 Posts
On May 02 2011 01:52 lorkac wrote: As for the wall off idea, I like it--just do it over time and not early on. It's good vs the counterattacks people like do do when they feel desperately behind on econ. As for marine scv all ins--2 Hellions can beat a ridiculous amount of scv/marines due to speed+range advantage. Poke then run poke then run (assuming you were scouting with your first Hellion, you should whittle them down by the time they get to your base. yeah i guess walling off with supply as time goes on. The thing with marine scv all in is that they would have reinforcement non-stop coming and i have to bring scv to tank/repair my hellions. they don't need that many SCVs to have constant marine production. maybe it comes down to micro. If they spread the marine well then i would have a hard time. It almost comes before i get my blue flame. | ||
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Kostoglotov
France28 Posts
On May 02 2011 02:56 Curu wrote: You react...with a Bunker. If you're doing any sort of tech, you make a Bunker to hold your ramp unless you're absolutely sure there's no aggression coming. Nothing special about the Ghost, a 3 Rax or maybe even 2 Rax would also straight up kill this (and any 1/1/1 build) without a Bunker. Yes you're right. But there is no bunker in the OP's build, and I've never faced a iEchoic build with a bunker (it's not a very common build though). But I was theorycrafting that a ghosts/marauders defense (at least 3 ghost, CS and 1 bunker in each mineral line) should prevent any hellion or banshee harass. Denying the momentum of this build while expanding much earlier should give me a great lead and I should be able to make a strong 2 base push with some thors. I'm looking forward to test this on the ladder. | ||
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Mnijykmirl
United States299 Posts
On May 02 2011 01:02 Allenssmart wrote: i like to go gas first with this build. what's wrong with doing that? Gas first and skip the marines and get earlier BF hellion straight into banshee second starport viking before second factory. I like it better with a flying repair bus drop so I can have more BF hellion left behind to continue zoning or to counter drop. Squeeze in the expand at 6 minutes and then it's just a skip and a hop to 2 base production of 3 port 3 fact with banshee/reactor viking/cattlebruiser and Hellion. That's my success. It feels more universal. What's wrong with it is that you have a slower scout deny and if they're wise they hit you with bio all-ins better. | ||
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