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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
10 supply 12 barracks 13 refinery 16 orbital command 16 bunker supply drop at the completion of the orbital command allows for an early bunker w/out delaying timings. If you only make 1 marine (which you hide in the bunker) you save enough minerals to not slow down the build mineral wise as well. This gives you better early defense at the cost of weaker early map control. | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
Low Master vs High Diamond. http://www.mediafire.com/?cnoezzkuschkofy I do the fast gas build in the replay I gave on the previous page, although I mess up and get a depot too quickly. But none the less the replays shows how to combat a fast tank push. Note: Shown in game... Scout for cheese/close positions early cause the build is very vulnerable early. | ||
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NuclearStar
United Kingdom57 Posts
I am only high diamond do maybe my opponents are doing something wrong, but I never lose to this build anymore. | ||
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davidk
49 Posts
To compensate for the extra minerals for the bunker and marines I only build one starport before the drop. At my level of play, the opponents rarely have a starport before me, so there's no need to produce mass vikings for air control. Although the economical damage really works and I also have map control, it is hard to end the game. Especially when there are turrets and tanks up. I then just keep expanding and build battlecruisers. Does someone have replays of big tournament games where this build is used? It'd be nice to check it out. | ||
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Shucks!
United States118 Posts
On May 03 2011 19:49 NuclearStar wrote: I use to go this build for a few days. But got kinda bored of it, sure I won a lot. But then I encountered it myself. I built a few thors and some marauders, and just stormed every T that tries this build. It seems so easy to defeat now. I love it when I scout 2fact2port. I am only high diamond do maybe my opponents are doing something wrong, but I never lose to this build anymore. If you go Marauder Thor, he shouldn't lose unless he doesnt scout or react. If I'm doing 2fact2port, as soon as I see an armory (because I will have dropped you or banshee harass etc) I'm gonna be making some bcs. Thors and marauders are useless against bcs. If he keeps up hellion production vs marauder thor, thats probably a waste. | ||
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JusticeUS
36 Posts
On April 30 2011 18:36 Kostoglotov wrote: I'm currently refining a ghost opening in my TvT, and it gives me hilarious early wins vs the iEchoic build. I use to poke with a reaper/maraudeur/scv/ghost army (1 of each), followed up by more ghosts and later tanks. If there is no bunker, it's a straight-up win. If there is a bunker, well, I suppose I can expand quite early while being very safe, and while teching to thors quite fast. But this is theorycraft, as there is never a bunker. How should this build react against a ghost opening ? The OP doesn't say. I agree that the Ghost opening is nearly impossible for this build to deal with. And it just becomes silly if they manage a proxy Rax or a proxy Bunker. Having a Ghost in your mineral line while all you have producing are banshees and hellions, and you don't even have blue flame yet, is not a good situation at all. I'm not sure the exact build order of this opening, but it's quite legit. QXC used and developed it for a while. Liquipedia link: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ghost_First_(vs._Terran) I also found this great replay of TLO using a similar build against Goody, who reportedly plays mech slavishly. Sure, bunker nullifies the Ghost opening quite well, but the Bunker is a threat that the Ghost opening has to deal with anyway when it's reacted to. It has answers to it. Some replays I've seen even show the Ghost player practically camping the opposing ramp, destroying any after the fact bunker before it's built. The question is 1) whether going x + Ghost pays off with the initial harass and 2) transitions into a good mid-game v. this build. Those questions are debatable, but here's my take. 1) Ghost First played properly and without it being expected easily results in 4-5 unanswered worker kills at the 6m mark - unanswered as in their Ghost often retreats alive when threatened. Yes, you will be pulling SCV's to defend the push, something that no standard build should ever resort to as a default play v any other. And if he gets a bunker of his own in the area of your natural, God help you. This can put anyone's BO seriously behind. 2) And that Ghost surviving will cause hell later, alone or joined by any of his buddies. Ghost First usually goes into Maraudars to preempt Marine Tank, and even against other builds, those two initial Rax are going to either produce Marauders or more Ghosts. And if Marine/Marauder can be micro'd successfully against Hellion, then Ghost/Marauder is cake. There are fewer light units, so spreading them out is easier, and Ghost has greater range than the Marine and comparable dps against light per resource spent . You should have the ground quite easily. And against Banshee, the Ghost is not ideal, but it's serviceable, especially considering the relative quantities each player is likely to have in the midgame. Cloak can be combated with EMP. In the liquid cast that QXC did, he mentioned that opponent was likely to go Banshee, and that hitting proper EMPs was key to coming ahead there, but that was actually what he wants to see because of so many early resources spent on tech. Posted replays show QXC fighting off 2 port Banshee quite easily. As I see it, the Hellion/Banshee relies on three things: 1) The opponent's early/mid anti-air to consist mainly of Marine, so that when its ground army is wiped out, Banshees have free reign. 2) Time to tech to achieve air superiority. 3) The capacity to inflict more eco damage than it suffers to the opponent. Ghost First seems to combat all three of these fronts directly. A bit disappointing that all the OP mentions of Ghosts is that they are "terrible". Oh, and 1.3.3 will make Ghosts easier to build, further buttressing the viability of Ghost First TvT (my favorite build aside from Hellion/Banshee : ---- ) | ||
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JusticeUS
36 Posts
On February 05 2011 03:34 iEchoic wrote: This build really hard-counters any marine allins. You just spread your hellions at the top and hold them and the ramp funnels all incoming marines, making splash incredibly strong. Any allins before you have hellions are would be worthless because they wouldn't have any more marines by time they get to your base. Sorry that I got into this build so comparatively late, but just one more thing: This Hellion ramp defense isn't going to work. If the opponent walks into it as described, sure, it's almost as good as bunkering up, and a mite bit better than fast seige tank. But at diamond level, I've not seen a 4+ rax Marine all in hit an opposing T's ramp without one of the following things: 1) A few leading SCV's 2) A scan at the top of the ramp (Or if he's not gasless) 3) A hopping reaper to spot the ramp 4) One or two Marauders leading Anyone with this kind of opener in their arsenal is quite accustomed now to busting ramps, honestly. Let's take them one by one. Obviously, 2-4 are going to give the attacking player enough time to engage at Range 5 versus Hellions until they're either dead or have moved away from the ramp to safely allow the Marines through. Hellions at range 5 typically hit only one Marine, and the dps of that attack without splash is horrible. Played this way, the Marines are getting up the ramp, and it's up to the attacker to get a good concave on possible routes of re-advance for your hellions and a concave on your factory for when more come out. It's certainly not unwinnable for the Hellion defender when the Marine player doesn't micro, but the question is who doesn't devote a majority of their attention to micro when they do a Marine all-in? Not a good situation to be in at all. As for the leading SCV with no engergy for scan, the Marine only player is going to be stopped cold, sure. And in fact, this is what I see most often out of people, a leading SCV. But played well, 2-3 SCV's are being brought, and 40s later you have a Bunker at the base of your ramp. Then he may have enough time to save up for a scan. Some players have the habit of getting gas at this point as a failsafe also, in which case you might see a Reaper at around 45-50s after poke, a Marauder at about 1m after poke, or both. So we see 1 leading into 2, 3 or 4, all bad situations. So, saying that a tech-greedy build like this can deal with a competent 4 rax is simply not giving your opponent enough credit, and the statement that it "hard counters" it is just straight-up fantasy. I would say wall off, but I've tried that and it's not too hard for him to kill a depot in this scenario, and it's equally bad if you try to make a rax-fact wall they manage to kill the fact. Walling off might give you more options though, but I'd say that if you scout a Marine rush, you'd better switch your build. I'll post replays when I find out how to upload somewhere. I'm not saying the build's not solid, far from it. Just that, like any other build, you need to scout the opponent and restrain the impulse to be greedy when you see aggression. Statements like the above just lead people to think that 2fac/2port is the new religion, cracking the face of TvT wide open. It's been impactful, but not THAT impactful. There's no end run around just being a better player. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
Which means all this "early marine/ghost pressure is moot since the build can get defenses up really early before even scouting anything. If the midgame scout spots a FE instead of 1base play, bunker is salvaged and no loss of minerals or timings. | ||
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2Vs2Lukking
Germany103 Posts
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Birnie
Taiwan5 Posts
Basically he has nothing to counter my air units except MORE VIKINGS. Marines are traded with my hellions. His thors make him loss of map control... then I can have more expos than he has, and surely with more resources I still pump out more VIKINGS than him... Gound army died by relentless BANSHEE's attack which forces him GG. Well, once he knows I'm going to do the iEchoic's TVT BO, he rushes marauders.. 2raxs marauders push while I have 1rax and 2fact pumping blue flame hellion. I have to say that to counter his marauders, you might stop hellion and produce tanks to stop his attack, and then .. pump out banshees and vikings to take over the advantage. However, there's still a very weak timing in this build when you only have 1rax and 2fact researching your blue flame. what ever rushes come, it's hard to hold it. Could iEchoic goes some details how you hold early rush in this build. How did you response to it. | ||
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twiitar
Germany372 Posts
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RuFF_SC2
United States203 Posts
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alia
United States294 Posts
On May 10 2011 09:39 RuFF(TR) wrote: So like I did this build against you Echoic, why you stealing it, I have reps dating in november with it and I recall using it against u. -.- Are you the Ruff that has a million different TvT builds and give players a headache so they don't like playing TvT against you?  | ||
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RuFF_SC2
United States203 Posts
On May 10 2011 09:44 alia wrote: Are you the Ruff that has a million different TvT builds and give players a headache so they don't like playing TvT against you? Yes I have tons of builds, I just beat select using this build and a friend pointed the thread to me. Also the only time you go battlecruisers is when the other Terran goes thors. In addition, this build does not work against zerg unless u literally kill every drone. Muta / Corruptor will kill this build in addition to infestors. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/6761/dSeleCT_vs_RuFF | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
Looking mostly at the e-bay play and weapon upgrade oppose to armor upgrade. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On May 08 2011 19:14 Birnie wrote: Big thanks to iEchoic. You've made SCII more interesting! And it keeps terran being my favorite. What a clever race that can create so many intriguing strategies. I've practiced it with my friend, and he's like: WHAT THE HELL IS THIS. DAMN YOU HAVE MORE VIKINGS.. GG! Basically he has nothing to counter my air units except MORE VIKINGS. Marines are traded with my hellions. His thors make him loss of map control... then I can have more expos than he has, and surely with more resources I still pump out more VIKINGS than him... Gound army died by relentless BANSHEE's attack which forces him GG. Well, once he knows I'm going to do the iEchoic's TVT BO, he rushes marauders.. 2raxs marauders push while I have 1rax and 2fact pumping blue flame hellion. I have to say that to counter his marauders, you might stop hellion and produce tanks to stop his attack, and then .. pump out banshees and vikings to take over the advantage. However, there's still a very weak timing in this build when you only have 1rax and 2fact researching your blue flame. what ever rushes come, it's hard to hold it. Could iEchoic goes some details how you hold early rush in this build. How did you response to it. Pretty simple. Scout his marauder build with your first hellion. Keep making marines from your 1 rax, and stuff them into a bunker. Put scvs nearby to repair. Get starport after only 1 factory and get banshee out ASAP. | ||
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djdoodoo
United Kingdom192 Posts
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Birnie
Taiwan5 Posts
Well, these above are just my suggestion. | ||
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Birnie
Taiwan5 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:02 link0 wrote: Pretty simple. Scout his marauder build with your first hellion. Keep making marines from your 1 rax, and stuff them into a bunker. Put scvs nearby to repair. Get starport after only 1 factory and get banshee out ASAP. Not that easy actually. When you just finish your first factory, he has two raxes, one with tech lab. When you have your first hellion and the hellion arrive his main, he should have marauder(s) and marines. Question one: do you make your second factory right after your first factory, which means you're making your second factory while you do not have even one hellion. If so, what will you do while scouting with the hellion? starport? you haven't see his composition. the second factory? he might be on the way of pressuring. A bunker? you're just blind gambling. Question two: you might not be able to scout in his base with your first hellion. It's possible your hellion is stopped by his marines or marines and marauder. What should you react when you see the marauder? put a bunker in case he pushes? continue the original building? Someone might say that the control of watch tower is very important for any early push. But in some maps, it's possible that the opponent's army just one the rounte that one watch tower does not cover, such as Metropolis, Xelnaga carveness, ... There is chances that he takes at least one tower. Surely he will do that because he does not want you to see he goes early pressure and see his SCVs and army. I think if you can scout a tech lab and 2 raxes with your first scout SCV, that will be very helpful and you definitely have time to defend. But if not, there's a window that, with this build, you have to struggle surviving through his early push and mostly, you lose right here. This is very much like when zergs see a 2BB early pressure, with marauders and marines. They use queens, few zerglings, and drones, and immediately making spine crawlers. BUT, as terrans, building one bunker spends 40 secs, and you also need marines which means your first two marines should survive or you produce more marines but he could attack again while the marine is producing. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
use supply drop instead of mule when orbital finishes. Instead of supply depot on 16 make a bunker instead--put marines inside. When you scout their base and see a fast expand--salvage bunker. When you scout their base and see a rush--make 2 more marines. | ||
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