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I tried this strat three times on ladder and I just get owned every single time by Biomech, Marines/Marauders/Tanks. I've only won once with this strat and I feel I'm doing something incredibly wrong. TvT is my weakest matchup and I'm a low (SUPPPPEEERRRR) Gold. Here's the replays.
http://filesmelt.com/dl/TvT_1.SC2Replay
http://filesmelt.com/dl/TvT_2.SC2Replay
My macro is extremely horrendous in both games so I know thats what I really gotta work with... But I think the main problem I have executing this build is that it just seems that I don't have enough for anything. I know that the supply drop at one point of the game helps from using up 100 mins, but other than that I feel like I can never afford anything right on time.
Again, I'm a low level gold Terran player trying to execute this build, but losing to standard marine/tank/marauder most of the time.
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it sucks IMO and really sucks
no way to play midgame with this opening and its basically 1 base allin hoping u kill every scv he has so u can win
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On May 31 2011 13:38 Jon Jern wrote:I tried this strat three times on ladder and I just get owned every single time by Biomech, Marines/Marauders/Tanks. I've only won once with this strat and I feel I'm doing something incredibly wrong. TvT is my weakest matchup and I'm a low (SUPPPPEEERRRR) Gold. Here's the replays. http://filesmelt.com/dl/TvT_1.SC2Replay http://filesmelt.com/dl/TvT_2.SC2ReplayMy macro is extremely horrendous in both games so I know thats what I really gotta work with... But I think the main problem I have executing this build is that it just seems that I don't have enough for anything. I know that the supply drop at one point of the game helps from using up 100 mins, but other than that I feel like I can never afford anything right on time. Again, I'm a low level gold Terran player trying to execute this build, but losing to standard marine/tank/marauder most of the time.
I've read these two replays.
In the first replay, your oppnent opens with marine/tank. You should have controlled the xel'naga tower to react promptly when his army moves out.
Your first drop rewards significantly, but after that, no more drops.
You just rally your force and prepare for a battle in the front.
But in this build, you should act like a zerg.
Scout! Harrass! Air control!
You should not make more vikings as you see no vikings in his army.
Keep harrassing by your hellions and banshees, like zergs use zerglings and mutas to restrain terrans army.
Attack his army when his tanks are moving. That's what zergs do, isn't it?
In the second replay, your oppent opens with marine/marauder/mediac.
Please see the "reacting to the terran's opening" part,
You should 2x produce banshees.
You have better to add on your factories with reactors to 2x produce hellions.
And also, you just harrass once which still works well but you should keep doing it.
In this game, you actually have economic advantage, and tech as well.
You'd have won this game.
However, you have too much vikings.
If you get 2X banshees, you should have reached like 14 banshees.
If you are a zerg, with 14 banshees, would you be afraid of those missle torrets?
Have you seen zergs facing terrans MMM ball with zerglings and mutas but wins the battle?
So, you could win these two games if you use right strategies and harrass them properly.
Your concept of this build is not appropriate so that you lost in the front line even though you are way ahead in economy.
Try to use it against a computer player till you are mature in using this build.
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my major problem in using this build is air control..
how do you hit the balance between vikings and banshees?
once you lose air control it's a guaranteed lost
but if you overmake vikings you don't have enough banshees to defend/attack...
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On June 03 2011 12:46 Puffstuff wrote:
my major problem in using this build is air control..
how do you hit the balance between vikings and banshees?
once you lose air control it's a guaranteed lost
but if you overmake vikings you don't have enough banshees to defend/attack...
Scouting is key. One thing I've found is that since you start rolling in minerals once you get your second base up, make sure to keep scanning his base to keep an eye on his viking count.
Normally you don't need more than about 5 b/c most terrans focus on tanks so if you have problems scouting that's a good number to start.
just make sure to keep an eye on his army comp and if you see him pumping out lots of vikings do the same. remember you can make more at a time than him (if you can't you're also doing something wrong)
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never seen this build performed in such a way where a few thors added into a normal marine/tank/viking make-up didn't wreck it.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never seen this build performed in such a way where a few thors added into a normal marine/tank/viking make-up didn't wreck it.
It's an early to mid-game build to punish T as long as he sticks to only Marine Tank Viking. As soon as he adds thors to the mix, i.e. when you scout an armory, you need to transition out maybe to a third bass and battle cruisers.
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I actually think it's a lot better just to stick with the standard Marine/Tank/Viking. Yes it's boring sometimes and not very "original", but it's the easiest way to win. So sure if you want an extreme challenge, go 3 rax bio or whatever. But just stick normal imo if you just want to improve and get higher up in the ladder. Same goes with iEchoic's build. At the moment I don't really think it fairs well vs. an equally skilled player.
It's easy to scout and once scouted easy to adapt against. And going marine tank doesn't always have to mean long boring macro games. You can still do stuff like 3 drops at the same time, drops on tanks, and much more.
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I can see how this build works. Combat is very strict, and you can't take a-move for granted because you'd want specific units to only attack specific enemy units. Here's me kinda following the build.
Replay here. (mediocre mechanics  )
What I realize is that this build is highly reliant on getting units based off your opponents, so there's no guessing or setting the pace (except hellions I guess) when you decide to go with this build.
It's a fun build to play, but definitely not friendly, which is why a lot of people have been complaining about this build in this thread I guess. But I like it.
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On May 10 2011 09:39 RuFF(TR) wrote:
So like I did this build against you Echoic, why you stealing it, I have reps dating in november with it and I recall using it against u. -.-
All rights reserved! Learn to publish your results.
This build seems pretty down to earth though.
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All I can say is I've never done this build, but I've never lost to it either. And it has been done to me many times. It's ridiculously easy to hold, honestly it only punishes terrans who don't know how to fight against it.
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I've been using this build with great results. Even in the games where I lost I feel I had no one to blame but myself, but there was one game I played against someone who opened BF hellion as well (presumably because my ramp wasn't blocked off and he scouted early 2nd gas with his SCV - he wasn't doing iEchoic) and FEd. The problem with this was that after he saw I was going iEchoic he just built two more factories, got 3 siege tanks, and then proceeded to outproduce me in the hellion race.
I couldn't drop because he'd always have enough hellions to deal with it, and I couldn't run into his nat because he had 3 tanks guarding it (not to mention he could just retaliate with a hellion runby of his own). By the time I had enough banshees to do any sort of damage to his tanks, he had missile turrets up (and more than enough hellions to kill all my hellions and SCVs). I also couldn't expand because it would have been completely vulnerable to his superior number of hellions. All I felt I could do was keep pumping hellions and vikings (which went straight to ground mode) off one base and eventually try to secure an expo with that. That obviously didn't work well though because he was on 2 bases to my one, outproducing me in the hellion race, and getting vehicle upgrades (and, though he never did, he could've kept expanding safely). I was trapped in one base, was only getting further and further behind in supply, and couldn't slow his economy down at all.
After watching the replay I realized that the second starport will always go down before you can scout that your opponent is opening with BF hellion (unless you scout with your rax on close air spawns), and so in order to be able to outproduce him in hellion count you would have to either cancel your starport for a late 3rd fact (off one base) and go hellion/raven (harassing/defending with auto-turrets), or just try for mass viking while blocking off your ramp (and then use your vikings to do the economic damage instead of hellion dropping his main), but I worry that smart tank placement and/or thors could deal with this pretty handily as well.
I made some bad decisions that game, and my micro wasn't good at all, but even if I played it better I'm not sure I would've won with this build. The BF hellion -> FE really did force me to use iEchoic in a gimmicky way in order to stand any chance of winning, and with hellions becoming increasingly more popular in TvT, I'm not sure I feel all that safe using this build anymore.
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this build is brilliant, but I feel one issue bears mentioning: Your complete poo pooing of ghosts. on paper, they're an ideal counter.
hellions do not receive bonus damage.
ghost do bonus vs light (hellion, banshee)
if you do tech cloak, ghosts have emp.
a ghost marauder ball would stun/ pwn your hellions (zerglings) and be unadressable by your banshees.
essentially a thorazain style pure marauder/ ghost army should break this. I wonder what your thoughts are. also, Im going to playtest this and post it one way or another, but I feel its a hard counter.
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On June 17 2011 06:40 Kritzkrieg wrote:
this build is brilliant, but I feel one issue bears mentioning: Your complete poo pooing of ghosts. on paper, they're an ideal counter.
hellions do not receive bonus damage.
ghost do bonus vs light (hellion, banshee)
if you do tech cloak, ghosts have emp.
a ghost marauder ball would stun/ pwn your hellions (zerglings) and be unadressable by your banshees.
essentially a thorazain style pure marauder/ ghost army should break this. I wonder what your thoughts are. also, Im going to playtest this and post it one way or another, but I feel its a hard counter.
Any build can be completely hard countered. But going marauder/ghost leaves you incredibly vulnerable to other types of play. If you're 100% without a doubt sure that the opponent is going 2fact2port, by all means go marauder/ghost. Otherwise it might not be worth the risk.
Also, once a single BC comes out you'll have a bit of trouble. 
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On June 17 2011 06:49 dudeman001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 06:40 Kritzkrieg wrote:
this build is brilliant, but I feel one issue bears mentioning: Your complete poo pooing of ghosts. on paper, they're an ideal counter.
hellions do not receive bonus damage.
ghost do bonus vs light (hellion, banshee)
if you do tech cloak, ghosts have emp.
a ghost marauder ball would stun/ pwn your hellions (zerglings) and be unadressable by your banshees.
essentially a thorazain style pure marauder/ ghost army should break this. I wonder what your thoughts are. also, Im going to playtest this and post it one way or another, but I feel its a hard counter. Any build can be completely hard countered. But going marauder/ghost leaves you incredibly vulnerable to other types of play. If you're 100% without a doubt sure that the opponent is going 2fact2port, by all means go marauder/ghost. Otherwise it might not be worth the risk. Also, once a single BC comes out you'll have a bit of trouble.
agreed, the counter is cumbersome and risky if your opponent takes a BO switch. I merely comment that iEchoic said "ghosts are terrible" when they could definently pose a threat.
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How is it best to engage,
All hellions then move in with the air force?
Or all at once?
if its vs masssss bio(marine heavy)
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Ghosts don't fight against banshees cost for cost, even if they're uncloaked. Any marines in your comp will still get melted by hellions. Ghosts are pretty terrible indeed. IEchoic doesn't even advocate cloak usage (additional banshees are preferable) - what's EMP going to do? Ghosts do the same DPS as stimmed marines. To light units. They have a minor range advantage, this is true, and can cloak, but banshees don't need to fear ghosts. Ghosts also don't have the mobility to cover multiple locations at once.
I think if you play this style solid, vs solid marine tank, it really comes down to looking a TON like ZVT. Hellions are banelings - a few good shots wrecks the entire marine ball, but they can't go crashing into tanks. Banshees try to pick off tanks, threaten counterattacks, and secure map control so the echoic player can have third and further expos faster. Expanding faster is CRITICAL for this build to work - if you don't have enough gas available, Thors DO shut you down because you can't afford a strong enough BC transition.
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If you are low gold, this strat won't work because you need a combination of micro and macro together to make it happen. Someone going marine tank viking is going to have an easy time against you because while you are trying to micro your shit, you're getting outmacroed and while you try to macro your stuff, you're not microing. Not just this, but you also need to know where and when to engage because this strat is about using the speed of your units to put the biomech player OUT of position so you can capitalise on it.
It's definitely a good strat to encourage multi-tasking but you're definitely taking too much on as a 'low gold' player.
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United States7483 Posts
On June 23 2011 14:56 sylverfyre wrote:
Ghosts don't fight against banshees cost for cost, even if they're uncloaked. Any marines in your comp will still get melted by hellions. Ghosts are pretty terrible indeed. IEchoic doesn't even advocate cloak usage (additional banshees are preferable) - what's EMP going to do? Ghosts do the same DPS as stimmed marines. To light units. They have a minor range advantage, this is true, and can cloak, but banshees don't need to fear ghosts. Ghosts also don't have the mobility to cover multiple locations at once.
I think if you play this style solid, vs solid marine tank, it really comes down to looking a TON like ZVT. Hellions are banelings - a few good shots wrecks the entire marine ball, but they can't go crashing into tanks. Banshees try to pick off tanks, threaten counterattacks, and secure map control so the echoic player can have third and further expos faster. Expanding faster is CRITICAL for this build to work - if you don't have enough gas available, Thors DO shut you down because you can't afford a strong enough BC transition.
Actually, one ghost straight up beats one banshee, and the ghost is only 50 minerals more. Get a few ghosts, and they'll kill the banshees pretty damn quick, especially if you cloak, go in, pick a couple off before scan goes off, then bail. They also maul hellions.
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Doesnt this get raped by mech? Every time ive played against this ive won fairly easy with Thor/hellion/viking/Tank
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EPT
