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On July 22 2011 06:06 silverdevilboy wrote:I found a decent replay online that is *exactly* the response you want against someone who opens standard and techs to thors to 'counter' you. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150790-1v1-terran-delta-quadrantPsychobabas, any chance of you showing us a replay of the Reaper FE opening? I *really* like the sound of it on the really big maps where the drop is basically worthless, but I dunno quite how you'd time the factories and starports. I assume you no longer have to cut hellions for starports? Do you still get 2 ports to begin with, or is it 3-4 quite quickly on 2-base?
I actually had it done to me from someone on the ladder so I totally copied his build. We both went iechoic btw (I went for the 4 hellion drop). After checking the replay, I realised that he was vastly ahead of me and was able to defend my drop simply by putting depots around his base which put him infinitely ahead, even after I killed scvs.
Sorry I dont have the replay, its lost in the mists of time but this is basically what he did. I'll see if I can get one of my own.
Barracks>Refinery>Tech Lab>Reaper
Command Centre (reaper is scouting and harrassing)
lift Barracks>Factory using the tech lab>2nd Refinery>Barracks is making reactor
make 4-6 marines from the reactored barracks>bunker at exp>Barracks lifts and is making tech lab
switch the Factory after blue flame is ready on the reactor, and put 2 starports on the tech labs when ready
So basically you have 1 reactored factory with blue flame researched and 2 starports with techlabs + the expansion a bunker and a total of maybe 4-6 marines.
The one weakness of this is I think a superfast marine, siege tank push but thats the purpose of the scouting reaper. Also, I think that the reaper really throws off a lot of players, they expect a marauder or even tank build from the early tech lab.
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Huh, that sounds pretty cool. Only 1 Fact saves a fair bit, and you'd only be 2 hellions short I believe.
And in cross positions, a tank/marine push is gonna be pretty late on, so you might have time to get a banshee and hold.
*goes to check the timings*
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I build thors, people spot me doing this and transition out and I'm stuck with a thor :S
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Bomber just used it against Skulk in the GSL. He opened 1 fac 2port for banshee viking, and went blue flame hellions after. He's just demolished Skulk's army and did damage at the expo, then expanded and transitioned into thors.
His opponent went marauder viking, and did a cool timing push that nearly took down the thors, but he messed up the stim timing. Bomber did a mech push to follow up, and won.
However, it is a demonstration that is is a viable tactic at top tier play for at least the early game. The lategame transition is different, but seems pretty easy to do, given that you already have the tech labs and 2 factories.
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On July 22 2011 22:09 silverdevilboy wrote:
Bomber just used it against Skulk in the GSL. He opened 1 fac 2port for banshee viking, and went blue flame hellions after. He's just demolished Skulk's army and did damage at the expo, then expanded and transitioned into thors.
His opponent went marauder viking, and did a cool timing push that nearly took down the thors, but he messed up the stim timing. Bomber did a mech push to follow up, and won.
However, it is a demonstration that is is a viable tactic at top tier play for at least the early game. The lategame transition is different, but seems pretty easy to do, given that you already have the tech labs and 2 factories.
Actually both players opened two port (which is probably a reaction to all the single port banshee openers, you get a banshee to do damage and a viking to kill the opponents banshee). What won bomber the game is that he stopped making banshees and instead made a raven while Sculp continued making banshees and researched cloak. Sculp lost all his banshees and air control while bomber transitioned into hellions and did a big roast on Sculp's scv's. After that the game was pretty much over.
Bomber did get a unit comp similar to the echoic style (thor, hellion, viking, raven and I think also a few banshees) but after Sculp lost all his banshees and had his scv's roasted he was pretty much dead already.
The idea behind this opener is to get a quick banshee and a viking out to take air control and do a lot of damage with the banshee, I think it allows for transitions to both standard marine/tank, standard mech (hellion/tank) and the iEchoic style of viking/hellion/banshee.
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i think this build works really well for catching your opponent out in a Bo3/5, but laddering with this strat was just not fun at all. It just became straight viking wars with either side having like 3 banshees and a billion vikings/hellions.
And then someone gets thors, and realizes that tanks beat hellions... And we're right back where we started. Just with an absurd viking war every time.
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On July 23 2011 00:34 Honeybadger wrote:
i think this build works really well for catching your opponent out in a Bo3/5, but laddering with this strat was just not fun at all. It just became straight viking wars with either side having like 3 banshees and a billion vikings/hellions.
And then someone gets thors, and realizes that tanks beat hellions... And we're right back where we started. Just with an absurd viking war every time.
Some people enjoy that playstyle over traditional tank-lines. I'm one of them.
I use iEchoic's style in TvT, but usually get there going 1/1/1 into a faster expansion. If you stay ahead on the Viking count, all it takes is one engagement and you have air dominance for the rest of the game. That's when you switch to BC's and force him to go Thor/Tank/Viking. It's actually pretty fun.
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On July 22 2011 23:36 Marsupian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 22:09 silverdevilboy wrote:
Bomber just used it against Skulk in the GSL. He opened 1 fac 2port for banshee viking, and went blue flame hellions after. He's just demolished Skulk's army and did damage at the expo, then expanded and transitioned into thors.
His opponent went marauder viking, and did a cool timing push that nearly took down the thors, but he messed up the stim timing. Bomber did a mech push to follow up, and won.
However, it is a demonstration that is is a viable tactic at top tier play for at least the early game. The lategame transition is different, but seems pretty easy to do, given that you already have the tech labs and 2 factories. Actually both players opened two port (which is probably a reaction to all the single port banshee openers, you get a banshee to do damage and a viking to kill the opponents banshee). What won bomber the game is that he stopped making banshees and instead made a raven while Sculp continued making banshees and researched cloak. Sculp lost all his banshees and air control while bomber transitioned into hellions and did a big roast on Sculp's scv's. After that the game was pretty much over. Bomber did get a unit comp similar to the echoic style (thor, hellion, viking, raven and I think also a few banshees) but after Sculp lost all his banshees and had his scv's roasted he was pretty much dead already. The idea behind this opener is to get a quick banshee and a viking out to take air control and do a lot of damage with the banshee, I think it allows for transitions to both standard marine/tank, standard mech (hellion/tank) and the iEchoic style of viking/hellion/banshee.
In other words, he got air control, the showed that the iEchoic style is the best early style if you can get and maintain air control.
His opponent lost the next engagement *hard* because hellions smash marines, and then he transitioned into Mech play to deal with the inevitable followup of marauder/Viking, since Thors smash vikings. IMO the BC transition is the best way to handle it, but he showed that mech is very good when you're already ahead due to that big hit in the first hellion engagement.
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On July 23 2011 00:50 ZasZ. wrote:
Some people enjoy that playstyle over traditional tank-lines. I'm one of them.
I use iEchoic's style in TvT, but usually get there going 1/1/1 into a faster expansion. If you stay ahead on the Viking count, all it takes is one engagement and you have air dominance for the rest of the game. That's when you switch to BC's and force him to go Thor/Tank/Viking. It's actually pretty fun.
While I love me some air wars too (I basically look for any excuse to use vikings) the problem I've noticed is that going viking on viking, the winner wins the game, and the situation you get into is this "how many vikings do I need? I must keep making them. Is he upgrading? Maybe I should upgrade too (though you would anyways in this build)" mentality. Because if he has one more, or a good thor volley, you lose That kind of play is why I don't play P or Z (I think Z is more fun, but ZvZ might as well be played to the benny hill theme)
But digression aside, my point was that it takes less true skill to win in those situations, with very few chances at a comeback. Even a slight mis-step and his marines/tanks suddenly have no opposition. Makes it too knife-edge for my tastes. Though I hate tank/marine too. So I've been playing with this
Marine/marauder/ghost/medivac/heavy upgrades and expanding.
Trick here is to use nukes to force an unseige (cloak and aim the nuke just in front of the tanks, so a scan won't let them murder him) and then charging in with stimmed, brutally upgraded bio. Lets me be all over the place, and I can force engagements with the nuke/cancel trick, I don't need to make any vikings, so I'm free to medivac (and subsequently double or triple drop) like crazy and expand like a zerg. You don't really have an endgame transition (you can easily switch to vikings with two reactored starports if he goes BC. Before that, he really shouldn't be building many vikings since there's no real point in the sight advantage,) but you also don't really need one, either. a good nuke will force him to unseige, and even massively upgraded tanks, when unseiged, are just fodder for your bio. Also, your ups are focused and his are split between his mech and his bio.
Granted, this build would get roasted by iechoic's in an a-move battle, but going full on turbo-newbie turrets, even blocking the chokes to your expansions with depot's since hellions barely tickle buildings, and proper micro of sending in marauders first to murderize the hellions (concussive, baby) followed by marines to mop up the air that's too slow to escape, just seems like an easy counter to me. Also, if his BC's aren't at least at 2 armor, lots of 3/3 marines just liquify them, as the BC takes too long between targets.
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this build is awesome for mixing up my tvt style thx dude, tried it some games today, but will tkae some time when i can really play it well.
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How the hell do you beat this strat?? This is literally the only way I've been losing in TvT lately.
I open 1/1/1, I always build a turret in my mineral line before expo, but most the time they just come in with like four banshees and kill it before I can repair. They cancel my factory that im trying to build a thor and if I try to counter push they just kill all my units with some banshees they have spawning.
Tips please?
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On July 23 2011 05:03 sCfO20 wrote:
How the hell do you beat this strat?? This is literally the only way I've been losing in TvT lately.
I open 1/1/1, I always build a turret in my mineral line before expo, but most the time they just come in with like four banshees and kill it before I can repair. They cancel my factory that im trying to build a thor and if I try to counter push they just kill all my units with some banshees they have spawning.
Tips please?
You have to scout before they get 4 banshees. Train some vikings and push earlier.
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it looks like more and more people are useing the iechoic build or at least a variation of it. it seems like TvT is changing atm. just my 2cents
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On July 31 2011 13:46 Taiko wrote:
it looks like more and more people are useing the iechoic build or at least a variation of it. it seems like TvT is changing atm. just my 2cents
I have to disagree. I'm guessing you say that because so many Terrans at MLG have been + Show Spoiler +making a lot of hellions. This doesn't mean they are using his build though. When people build banshees they're usually just trying to harass before the opponent gets detection. This build is supposed to mass banshees (or BCs) to deal with any kind of armored ground unit, which I haven't really seen people do at mlg. Also people at MLG have been building medivacs, tanks, and barracks units. None of these things are supposed to be used with this strategy.
^ MLG Anaheim spoilers ^
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On July 31 2011 13:46 Taiko wrote:
it looks like more and more people are useing the iechoic build or at least a variation of it. it seems like TvT is changing atm. just my 2cents
No, Terrans are going mech, which works differently from this build.
Mech
- tanks...lots of them
- banshees for harassment, not for the main army
- aggressive, not reactionary (playing Terran like a Terran)
iEchoic
- no tanks whatsoever
- banshees are part of the main army
- reactionary, not aggressive (playing Terran like a Zerg)
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I remember the days when Echoic was just a Nordic minstrel with a sweaty viking and a torid dwarf by his side...
Oh, such bedlam...
<3
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I use the strict iEchoic opening and style exclusively, and it does wonders for me. I have ~75% win rate with it as a Random high Master's level player.
One thing I noticed is that it works extremely well against the now-standard 1-1-1 expansion into mech opening. 2fact 2port allows many more hellions, giving you an opportunity to drop his mineral line with more effect. The banshees/vikings generally grant you quick air control so that he has to turtle up. His "economic" opening loses in economy to 2fact2port due to these factors.
A side note: 2fact2port is very fun to use.
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Wow, this build taught me how bad of a Terran player I am. Regardless, I gotta keep practicing this build!
Great post 
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How do you deal with heavy turtle billion misslemids and tank+rines
I got bored and quit :/
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EPT
