EPT[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 53
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silverdevilboy
United Kingdom38 Posts
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
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MKultra
16 Posts
Thank you for the concept. Master TvTreplay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12691 First time trying this strat, played a little sloppy, but so nice! | ||
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CarlaBruni
61 Posts
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lastshadow
United States1372 Posts
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
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raX_NT
24 Posts
On August 24 2011 02:41 ZasZ. wrote: Did you even read the OP? He specifically talks about a required transition to BCs once your opponent starts Thor production. The key is not over-producing Banshees and being able to utilize the right timing window to start BC production. You also need to be vigilant with your Hellion harass. Yes I did read the OP post, did you read my post? The only way a opponent Terran will allow you to transition into BC is if you have hurt his econemy so bad that he basicly lost the game from harassment already. If a opponent Terran knows this unit composition is coming, he can just A-MOVE into your base once he has a couple of Thor's and there is nothing you can do to stop him without siege t'anks of your own. Thats just pure logic. He will have a ball of units which you cant engage without a really high number of Battlecruisers which is just unrealistic in the short time a Terran needs to be able to push out to punish you for going for BattleCruisers that early. Sky Terran would have 2 ways to stop this , 1 is ALOT of banshee which we all know doesnt work, Battlecruisers which take to long and requires good econemy and alot of time to back it up. And it's not like a Terran going SiegeTank/ Light Thor/Hellion can't add inn a heavy viking production of his own. This "style" if not a playstyle its just a harassment based build almost similar to most other and if it fails your forced to play Siege Tank's and when that happens your already way behind. To me Sky Terran just looks like someone who wanted to find an easy way to play TVT that was not so Multitasking heavy. Siege Tanks will always be the main unit of TVT simply because you can't dominate air with banshees, and you can't dominate ground long enough to get econemy to have huge numbers of Battlecruisers. Everyone knows this. Anyway my initial post and my whole point was , you will never be able to remove Siege Tanks from the TVT matchup nomatter what "playstyle" people come up with. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On September 06 2011 04:03 raX_NT wrote: Yes I did read the OP post, did you read my post? The only way a opponent Terran will allow you to transition into BC is if you have hurt his econemy so bad that he basicly lost the game from harassment already. If a opponent Terran knows this unit composition is coming, he can just A-MOVE into your base once he has a couple of Thor's and there is nothing you can do to stop him without siege t'anks of your own. Thats just pure logic. He will have a ball of units which you cant engage without a really high number of Battlecruisers which is just unrealistic in the short time a Terran needs to be able to push out to punish you for going for BattleCruisers that early. Sky Terran would have 2 ways to stop this , 1 is ALOT of banshee which we all know doesnt work, Battlecruisers which take to long and requires good econemy and alot of time to back it up. And it's not like a Terran going SiegeTank/ Light Thor/Hellion can't add inn a heavy viking production of his own. This "style" if not a playstyle its just a harassment based build almost similar to most other and if it fails your forced to play Siege Tank's and when that happens your already way behind. To me Sky Terran just looks like someone who wanted to find an easy way to play TVT that was not so Multitasking heavy. Siege Tanks will always be the main unit of TVT simply because you can't dominate air with banshees, and you can't dominate ground long enough to get econemy to have huge numbers of Battlecruisers. Everyone knows this. Anyway my initial post and my whole point was , you will never be able to remove Siege Tanks from the TVT matchup nomatter what "playstyle" people come up with. This is my throught of the iechohic build as well. Against a terran who plays an extremely solid mech style, and commits a bit of ressources to compltely shut down harass while taking a fast expasnion at the same time (this is doable with a reactor hellion expand build), and then goes for a quick armory build producgin thor/hellions. How do you beat that timing push if you dont have bc yet? | ||
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silverdevilboy
United Kingdom38 Posts
On September 06 2011 04:03 raX_NT wrote: Yes I did read the OP post, did you read my post? The only way a opponent Terran will allow you to transition into BC is if you have hurt his econemy so bad that he basicly lost the game from harassment already. If a opponent Terran knows this unit composition is coming, he can just A-MOVE into your base once he has a couple of Thor's and there is nothing you can do to stop him without siege t'anks of your own. Thats just pure logic. He will have a ball of units which you cant engage without a really high number of Battlecruisers which is just unrealistic in the short time a Terran needs to be able to push out to punish you for going for BattleCruisers that early. Sky Terran would have 2 ways to stop this , 1 is ALOT of banshee which we all know doesnt work, Battlecruisers which take to long and requires good econemy and alot of time to back it up. And it's not like a Terran going SiegeTank/ Light Thor/Hellion can't add inn a heavy viking production of his own. This "style" if not a playstyle its just a harassment based build almost similar to most other and if it fails your forced to play Siege Tank's and when that happens your already way behind. To me Sky Terran just looks like someone who wanted to find an easy way to play TVT that was not so Multitasking heavy. Siege Tanks will always be the main unit of TVT simply because you can't dominate air with banshees, and you can't dominate ground long enough to get econemy to have huge numbers of Battlecruisers. Everyone knows this. Anyway my initial post and my whole point was , you will never be able to remove Siege Tanks from the TVT matchup nomatter what "playstyle" people come up with. Getting thors off 2 bases is as unreasonable as getting BCs off 2 bases. You will have very little else. And he has map control until you get thors, so can react at least partially to the attack before you get there (just like zerg manage to delay the terran mech pushes by forcing seiges a lot on the way), and can at least start teching to BCs. And thors are *not* an instawin button against banshee viking. Magic boxing is just as good with banshees, and you can very very quickly make a raven to negate thor volleys while you focus it down. It will come down to who can micro their marines/hellions better. If you can keep enough marines alive, you can win. If not, you will be killed off by the banshees. Yes, thors are super good. Just as they are against mutas. Why do terrans not just go 'build 2 thors and a-move into his base' against zerg? How come zerg players can survive long enough to get broodlords? It's the same idea. If he does a mech push, you need BCs to easily break it. Without BCs, you need to delay the push and hold by the skin of your teeth, and it comes down to you keeping marines alive. That's not as easy as it sounds against that many hellions. All we know is, iEchoic was top 200 NA. Consistently. And had a 70% winrate with this. With no tanks. We have a GM player who just posted that this is still very viable at top level play. With no tanks. | ||
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ContactKilla
United States194 Posts
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scarper65
1560 Posts
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silverdevilboy
United Kingdom38 Posts
And just think. Why does 'just going thor' not work every TvZ against mutas? It helps, but between magic box, harass, map control, and thors being slow, the other player has time to respond and tech. Z goes broodlords, and BCs are *faster* to get than broods. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 06 2011 09:05 silverdevilboy wrote: Getting thors off 2 bases is as unreasonable as getting BCs off 2 bases. You will have very little else. And he has map control until you get thors, so can react at least partially to the attack before you get there (just like zerg manage to delay the terran mech pushes by forcing seiges a lot on the way), and can at least start teching to BCs. And thors are *not* an instawin button against banshee viking. Magic boxing is just as good with banshees, and you can very very quickly make a raven to negate thor volleys while you focus it down. It will come down to who can micro their marines/hellions better. If you can keep enough marines alive, you can win. If not, you will be killed off by the banshees. Yes, thors are super good. Just as they are against mutas. Why do terrans not just go 'build 2 thors and a-move into his base' against zerg? How come zerg players can survive long enough to get broodlords? It's the same idea. If he does a mech push, you need BCs to easily break it. Without BCs, you need to delay the push and hold by the skin of your teeth, and it comes down to you keeping marines alive. That's not as easy as it sounds against that many hellions. All we know is, iEchoic was top 200 NA. Consistently. And had a 70% winrate with this. With no tanks. We have a GM player who just posted that this is still very viable at top level play. With no tanks. Thorzain went hellion/banshee/raven/viking against Noblesse in the GSTL (Noblesse went thor/hellion/viking, emphasis on thors). Thorzain rolled him. | ||
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silverdevilboy
United Kingdom38 Posts
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Keirden
17 Posts
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HDream
Norway20 Posts
On October 08 2011 06:31 Keirden wrote: How do you deal with reaper rush with iechoic's build ? Scvs and helions should be enough to be honest. | ||
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Keirden
17 Posts
On October 08 2011 06:49 HDream wrote: Scvs and helions should be enough to be honest. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=235989 Hellion lose vs reaper 1v1 and i think reapers come before you have enough hellions. | ||
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HDream
Norway20 Posts
On October 08 2011 08:10 Keirden wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=235989 Hellion lose vs reaper 1v1 and i think reapers come before you have enough hellions. That's where the scvs come in. | ||
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TheSpoiler
United States4 Posts
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Keirden
17 Posts
Yeah but reapers are faster than scvs. You can buy time with them but you will take a lot of damage. If you suspect reapers, you should leave the barracks on the TL and produce 1-2 marauders and build a TL on your factory. It may delay your drop slightly, but it should still do crushing damage since your opponent won't have vikings or tanks. That might be the best thing to do but i dont think you will do "crushing damage" since he will scout your drop coming and prepare for it. | ||
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