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On June 23 2011 16:24 Whitewing wrote:
Actually, one ghost straight up beats one banshee, and the ghost is only 50 minerals more. Get a few ghosts, and they'll kill the banshees pretty damn quick, especially if you cloak, go in, pick a couple off before scan goes off, then bail. They also maul hellions.
Banshees have more health (140 vs. 100), do more damage per attack (24 vs. 20), and have a quicker cooldown (1.25 vs. 1.50) than ghosts. They're also faster (2.75 vs. 2.25) and can fly. One-on-one, banshees pick ghosts apart.
/PSA
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 25 2011 06:10 Aoi_10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 16:24 Whitewing wrote:
Actually, one ghost straight up beats one banshee, and the ghost is only 50 minerals more. Get a few ghosts, and they'll kill the banshees pretty damn quick, especially if you cloak, go in, pick a couple off before scan goes off, then bail. They also maul hellions. Banshees have more health (140 vs. 100), do more damage per attack (24 vs. 20), and have a quicker cooldown (1.25 vs. 1.50) than ghosts. They're also faster (2.75 vs. 2.25) and can fly. One-on-one, banshees pick ghosts apart. /PSA
Furthermore, the idea that somehow a ghost is going to cloak and pick of banshees rather than the opposite happening is mostly incorrect. Banshees can also cloak, and due to their speed, stacking, and ability to ignore terrain, should be able to punish any such attempts from someone who tries to beat banshees with ghosts.
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I just started using this build because I've grown tired of marine-tank all the time. While I'm late to the party, I must say that this build does okay vs Plat-to-Masters Terrans that I've played in custom games.
If Terran is going mass bio, I think it makes more sense to get vehicle upgrades rather than ship upgrades. Although stimmed Marines rip Banshees and BFHs to shreds, BFHs at least have the AOE to take the marines out quickly, are cheaper than Banshees, and are easier to make en masse.
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If opp' goes mass bio then the only AA you have to worry about is marines, and maybe some ghosts.
If that's the case then air upgrades are still good. Hellions go in do their splash to kill most the marines, and then Banshee will kill everything else uncontested. That's the point. That's the abuse.
Hellions are expendable, you don't need to increase their toughness sense they're cheap and produce quickly.
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When people do boxer's build(reactor on starport), it will be so hard to hold air superiority.
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This build is out-dated and gimmicky. It dies to any early aggression, And is an insta build order loss against Mech play, which if you watch Korean TvT has become pretty much the standard.
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On July 17 2011 22:05 GinDo wrote:
This build is out-dated and gimmicky. It dies to any early aggression, And is an insta build order loss against Mech play, which if you watch Korean TvT has become pretty much the standard.
I like that you are very blunt, but some kind of explanation would be nice...
1) sure this build does require one to do a lot of fancy micro and harassment, but last i checked those werent no goes in the gsl either.
2) for that same reason (see 1)) on larger maps this build has the potential to take map control, which in turn can be used to get an economic lead.
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On July 17 2011 22:05 GinDo wrote:
This build is out-dated and gimmicky. It dies to any early aggression, And is an insta build order loss against Mech play, which if you watch Korean TvT has become pretty much the standard.
Did you even read the OP? This build can handle almost all early aggression quite well. The only thing that has ever given me trouble is a 2rax stim push with 3-4 marauders and 7 or so marines. (and the only way i ever encounter this is late at night when i end up playing the same person 2 or 3 times) But that build dies to anything other than this build, so why would anyone do it?
This build works quite well even in mid-high masters. Honestly I would say the fact that it's "out-dated" is another reason I have so much success with it.
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I build Thors and win every game agains this build ;P
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On June 25 2011 06:10 Aoi_10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 16:24 Whitewing wrote:
Actually, one ghost straight up beats one banshee, and the ghost is only 50 minerals more. Get a few ghosts, and they'll kill the banshees pretty damn quick, especially if you cloak, go in, pick a couple off before scan goes off, then bail. They also maul hellions. Banshees have more health (140 vs. 100), do more damage per attack (24 vs. 20), and have a quicker cooldown (1.25 vs. 1.50) than ghosts. They're also faster (2.75 vs. 2.25) and can fly. One-on-one, banshees pick ghosts apart. /PSA
Thank god someone posted this. Ghosts are not some sensational underused unit. They are underused, but that's because they are not very good in most situations. The idea that ghosts counter banshees is just as stupid as the idea that ghosts counter broodlords and ultralisks. Moral of the story: Just because something can be done doesn't mean it's cost effective at all.
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On July 21 2011 12:06 link0 wrote:The idea that ghosts counter banshees is just as stupid as the idea that ghosts counter broodlords and ultralisks.
What is your basis for saying that ghosts don't counter brood lords?
While I can agree with saying that ghosts do not counter banshees, I can't agree with your statement about BLs. Ghosts counter broodlords because 125 energy kills one. They are also good because EMP is a counter for infestor, so this means that 1 unit soft counters 2 different units.
Just because its not a hard counter doesn't mean its not a counter.
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I played this build for so long, but I kinda got bored out of it.
But now I know exactly how to counter it when I know it's coming. The whole build relays on having a succesful first drop, if it fails and you are expanding, the iEchoic player is behind.
I recommand a 1-1-FE-1 build, gets you ahead eco wise and you can get out quick viking to kill any incoming drop. Use your viking on patrol on the way to the area most likely to get dropped.
Then just use your economic advantage to get a lot of vikings ( a thor in the mix is good too). Don't forget air defense upgrade. Push with huge air dominances and a flock of tanks/rines.
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On July 21 2011 13:28 drcatellino wrote:
I played this build for so long, but I kinda got bored out of it.
But now I know exactly how to counter it when I know it's coming. The whole build relays on having a succesful first drop, if it fails and you are expanding, the iEchoic player is behind.
I recommand a 1-1-FE-1 build, gets you ahead eco wise and you can get out quick viking to kill any incoming drop. Use your viking on patrol on the way to the area most likely to get dropped.
Then just use your economic advantage to get a lot of vikings ( a thor in the mix is good too). Don't forget air defense upgrade. Push with huge air dominances and a flock of tanks/rines.
If you do this, a good iechoic's player will stall the drop, kill your viking (he has 2 starports, don't tell me you're suddenly going to have more vikings, and then drop either your main or expo.
Also, properly executed, on most maps, your medivac will be able to drop the hellions before the viking is ready/kills it.
Imo the best response to iechoics is still a thor rush.
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The problem is, unless you are thor rushing, which is a pathetically bad idea in high level play, you *will* lose the first engagement. If you *know* it's coming, you can set up fast vikings into thors, and you'll be fine. But that loses to basically any standard play, so it's only if you are certain of iEchoic's style happening.
Plus, if you've EVER seen it done well, there's enough hellions to hold a push even if all of the dropped hellions die, and there's a timing push at about the 3rd cycle of air units.
At the same time as that timing push, you can lift a starport, build a reactor, build reactors on the two factories, and you can afford to expand at *least* once. If you do significant damage (so he can't respond), you can get a 3rd up, too.
The hellion drop accomplishes two things. It DEFINITELY does damage against certain builds, most notably fast expands, and it definitely scouts his tech.
If he has more than one factory, you know he's teching to thors, and you do a slightly faster timing push and expand + tech to cattlebruisers behind the push. BCs just straight up smash thors. Absurdly easily.
If he has reactorport, you know he's making vikings, and can start making more vikings yourself. You can *barely* afford to go 2X Viking and 1X Banshee off one base, though it hits your hellion production slightly, or you can get one raven and use PDD to win the viking war. Both work.
If he hasn't got either multiple factories or a lot of viking production, you basically win. You can keep scouting what he's up to very easily unless he literally mass turrets (in which case, EXPAND.)
Things people keep saying:
'Oh, just go Marauder+Viking'
Assuming equal armies, I have at least as many vikings as you, because I have more starports, and I have 1 banshee per 4 marauders.
'Oh, you expand so late, you just fall behind economically'
The Hellion drop is timed so that if you try and do a 1/2-rax FE, you do not have the units to defend a drop without taking damage. The player must be doing a significant amount of production off 1 base in order to prevent any damage with that drop. Either a 1-1-1 for a super fast viking to kill the medivac in transit (risky), or a lot of bio.
If your opponent fast expands, the drop *will* do damage. There's very few other paths that mean you will definitely do damage, the only other one I know of is fast cloaked banshees. (And the thor rush attack, since he has no units.)
If your opponent does not FE, but expands reasonably fast (i.e. can defend the push but still expands. 1-1-1 expand, 3-rax expand, etc etc, they will get their natural made and just about to start *right* as you make a timing push with about 6 air units and 6-8 hellions.
This push happens before you can get the stuff you need to defend it with. It's not an auto-win, but it basically will do damage. The likelihood is that you will trade armies, keep maybe 2-3 air units, and then back off, at which point he will just about manage to transfer SCVs.
You expand *twice* behind this push against a 2-base terran. You very quickly resume production of units, and you have map control.
If your opponent one-bases, you see the one-base, try and scout the front for tech, and since you expanded behind the push, you're feeling good.
'Oh, it just dies to Thor rush'
No, it trades with thor rush. You both lose your economy, and it all comes down to the fight with the thor, and how much economic damage the thor does. Plus, why the hell are you Thor rushing blind anyway? Any player good enough to play this style should be good enough to play standard too.
In all honesty, the very best counter to this build is pure tank marine with maybe thors lategame. You play *exactly* like you do against zerg's ling bling muta, where you keep your marines back and try and micro them so the tanks kill the hellions, and then kill the air units with your marines. Anything other than that is based on getting a lead on bases, which is not truly possible if your opponent is equally skilled. He *will* deal damage if you try and expand significantly faster than he does, and he has better map control than you unless you have a TON of tanks to control large areas of the map.
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I still counter this build easily by building 1 or 2 thors once i spot that my opponent is going for this build.
I dont see why its still so popular. Maybe people are just bad at it down in my diamond level.
I did do this build when it first came to the scene and it worked well for me, but i simply got bored of it =/
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The reason they're bad at it is that nobody describes how you expand easily to the people who saw it here or on day[9]. They sit one one base and just keep on making units, rather than actually expanding ever, and they don't scout for thors, so don't react appropriately.
Against someone who knows what to do, the second you start teching to thors, he'll be expanding and teching to BCs, using a raven with PDD to hold off a push if you try one.
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Dunno what you saying but at Masters I switched to this build when they nerfed tank damage and I'm not planning to switch back. Mech depends way too much on maps in my opinion, both size and layout. And I just dont like depending on maps.
Tips: If close position, go immediately for the 4 blue-flame hellion drop, then expand.
If far position or large map like Taldarim, open with 0 marine, 1 reaper then fast exp, make reactor with barracks for a few marines and the reactored factory (after blue flame from using your initial barracks techlab of course). It works like a charm and the timing of the reactor on the barracks is great for any 1-port banshee.
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I found a decent replay online that is *exactly* the response you want against someone who opens standard and techs to thors to 'counter' you.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150790-1v1-terran-delta-quadrant
Psychobabas, any chance of you showing us a replay of the Reaper FE opening? I *really* like the sound of it on the really big maps where the drop is basically worthless, but I dunno quite how you'd time the factories and starports. I assume you no longer have to cut hellions for starports? Do you still get 2 ports to begin with, or is it 3-4 quite quickly on 2-base?
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I haven't done this opener in a long time, but I did use this build for a very long time.
I'm currently sitting at around 1650 points in masters, and TvT is my best matchup at the moment with around a 80% win rate. This build itself has become quite gimmicky, especially at a high level of play. It is effective on ladder, and will lead to around a 60% win rate just due to the build order not being scouted/reacted to properly.
That being said, the unit composition and strategy is still very powerful. Banshees + vikings against any non-thor army are extremely cost effective and powerful, especially when backed up with tanks and hellions. You don't need to go overboard, even a single banshee with viking support will easily prevent any sort of tank cliffing or soft-contains from keeping you locked down. If they try to build more vikings to combat this, you can get a thor or two out yourself to maintain air superiority. This little principle/transition has been underused for a very long time, but it is finally gaining some traction at the higher levels of play, we see korean pros like puma and MKP building a banshee or two if their opponents sac air control and try to do a Bomber style very condensed style of super scary ground-only bust of your tank line. Banshee harass in the midgame has been severely neglected as of late in TvT, banshee can do terrible economic damage to the third/fourth on most maps, without too much risk involved, as they can almost always retreat, repair, and then use them in their main army. This can force either lots of turrets, or extra marine production that is not wanted, and just plain kill greedy builds.
Thanks iEchoic for figuring out this awesome build and sharing it with us, most people thought it would be a fad that would disappear overnight, but whilst every build order has a counter, the strategy itself stays as strong as the player.
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EPT
