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On April 10 2011 17:27 abaitor wrote:
I hate how people aren't actually answering questions. People are treating the iechoic build like it's a religion, they either just believe its the best build without actually explaining why, or explain that it can be beaten really easily without describing how. It's been common in the thread for people to say "to beat iechoic just play better". You never see that with any other build "how to beat cloak banshee" herp der play better. No, the answer is get detection. "how to beat muta ling bling as t??" variety of ways, for example, some variation of tank marine, once again, not "herp derp play better get w/e the hell u want".
But it also works in the opposite direction, people are saying, "hmm what if you do x, or y, or z" and there's always an answer regardless of how unviable it is. If this build really was as strong as people like to believe then I think we'd be seeing it a lot more on the ladder, and we'd be seeing it at least once or twice in tournaments. The fact of the matter is, yes the iechoic build can adapt to anything you throw at it, but which good standard build just flat out loses to something and you just hope and pray he doesn't go for it? None that are popular, however, having the potential to adapt to something, doesn't mean you will in a game. People seem to believe fog of war doesn't exist, and that you can immediately respond with whatever 'counters' their reaction (works both ways, marauder push vs reasonably unscoutable early iechoic is good yes but will lose to almost anything else, and expecting to be able to have bcs out the second the non-iechoic player goes thor, is also good in theory).
I just wish people could discuss the build rather than taking a side and blindly believing in it. There are weaknesses and strengths of the build and every other build, just embrace them and discuss them rather than trying to deny their existance.
Quite frankly many of the questions are answered in the first post of the thread.
Go into a unit tester and watch 2 banshees with +1 armor kill a thor, and if microed properly banshees are great against marines as well.
It's not like once thors are out the opponent is off the hook, he needs to turtle behind tanks and turrets to stay alive, which allows iEchoic to expand much faster. Considering you can camp outside their base while u halt unit production or tech to BC. Air superiority allows you to scout (FLY INTO THEIR BASE) very well unless they're massing turrets which means ur expoing will be that much faster.
Engine bay + 4 Turrets == iEchoic Orbital Command.
Most of the answers are pretty simple. This strategy isn't a wacky Picasso, it's all plainly stated in the OP. But here's some main points.
VS
BARRACKS
iEchoic chooses when to engage after opening, and Hellions hold their own against marauder.
FACTORY
iEchoic chooses when to engage, and Thors only beat Banshee if iEchoic doesn't magic box. Battle Cruisers are good, and are an easy transition.
STARPORT
Even at worst for iEchoic.
TURTLE
iEchoic out expands the player spending money on static defenses.
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[QUOTE]On April 10 2011 17:27 abaitor wrote:
I hate how people aren't actually answering questions. People are treating the iechoic build like it's a religion/QUOTE]
Yeah thats what im feeling too
I guess mass viking just does the trick and, he cannot afford to make as many vikings as I can because he has been using money to banshees too. I can make hellions or marines with spare minerals. If he chooses to transition in to tanks then he looses because i can start to make battlecruisers my own because of air superiority.
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On April 10 2011 18:08 Komsa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 17:27 abaitor wrote:
I hate how people aren't actually answering questions. People are treating the iechoic build like it's a religion, they either just believe its the best build without actually explaining why, or explain that it can be beaten really easily without describing how. It's been common in the thread for people to say "to beat iechoic just play better". You never see that with any other build "how to beat cloak banshee" herp der play better. No, the answer is get detection. "how to beat muta ling bling as t??" variety of ways, for example, some variation of tank marine, once again, not "herp derp play better get w/e the hell u want".
But it also works in the opposite direction, people are saying, "hmm what if you do x, or y, or z" and there's always an answer regardless of how unviable it is. If this build really was as strong as people like to believe then I think we'd be seeing it a lot more on the ladder, and we'd be seeing it at least once or twice in tournaments. The fact of the matter is, yes the iechoic build can adapt to anything you throw at it, but which good standard build just flat out loses to something and you just hope and pray he doesn't go for it? None that are popular, however, having the potential to adapt to something, doesn't mean you will in a game. People seem to believe fog of war doesn't exist, and that you can immediately respond with whatever 'counters' their reaction (works both ways, marauder push vs reasonably unscoutable early iechoic is good yes but will lose to almost anything else, and expecting to be able to have bcs out the second the non-iechoic player goes thor, is also good in theory).
I just wish people could discuss the build rather than taking a side and blindly believing in it. There are weaknesses and strengths of the build and every other build, just embrace them and discuss them rather than trying to deny their existance. Quite frankly many of the questions are answered in the first post of the thread. Go into a unit tester and watch 2 banshees with +1 armor kill a thor, and if microed properly banshees are great against marines as well. It's not like once thors are out the opponent is off the hook, he needs to turtle behind tanks and turrets to stay alive, which allows iEchoic to expand much faster. Considering you can camp outside their base while u halt unit production or tech to BC. Air superiority allows you to scout (FLY INTO THEIR BASE) very well unless they're massing turrets which means ur expoing will be that much faster. Engine bay + 4 Turrets == iEchoic Orbital Command. Most of the answers are pretty simple. This strategy isn't a wacky Picasso, it's all plainly stated in the OP. But here's some main points. VS BARRACKS iEchoic chooses when to engage after opening, and Hellions hold their own against marauder. FACTORY iEchoic chooses when to engage, and Thors only beat Banshee if iEchoic doesn't magic box. Battle Cruisers are good, and are an easy transition. STARPORT Even at worst for iEchoic. TURTLE iEchoic out expands the player spending money on static defenses.
You make is sound as if this build is the answer to life the universe and everything.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 10 2011 18:30 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 18:08 Komsa wrote:On April 10 2011 17:27 abaitor wrote:
I hate how people aren't actually answering questions. People are treating the iechoic build like it's a religion, they either just believe its the best build without actually explaining why, or explain that it can be beaten really easily without describing how. It's been common in the thread for people to say "to beat iechoic just play better". You never see that with any other build "how to beat cloak banshee" herp der play better. No, the answer is get detection. "how to beat muta ling bling as t??" variety of ways, for example, some variation of tank marine, once again, not "herp derp play better get w/e the hell u want".
But it also works in the opposite direction, people are saying, "hmm what if you do x, or y, or z" and there's always an answer regardless of how unviable it is. If this build really was as strong as people like to believe then I think we'd be seeing it a lot more on the ladder, and we'd be seeing it at least once or twice in tournaments. The fact of the matter is, yes the iechoic build can adapt to anything you throw at it, but which good standard build just flat out loses to something and you just hope and pray he doesn't go for it? None that are popular, however, having the potential to adapt to something, doesn't mean you will in a game. People seem to believe fog of war doesn't exist, and that you can immediately respond with whatever 'counters' their reaction (works both ways, marauder push vs reasonably unscoutable early iechoic is good yes but will lose to almost anything else, and expecting to be able to have bcs out the second the non-iechoic player goes thor, is also good in theory).
I just wish people could discuss the build rather than taking a side and blindly believing in it. There are weaknesses and strengths of the build and every other build, just embrace them and discuss them rather than trying to deny their existance. Quite frankly many of the questions are answered in the first post of the thread. Go into a unit tester and watch 2 banshees with +1 armor kill a thor, and if microed properly banshees are great against marines as well. It's not like once thors are out the opponent is off the hook, he needs to turtle behind tanks and turrets to stay alive, which allows iEchoic to expand much faster. Considering you can camp outside their base while u halt unit production or tech to BC. Air superiority allows you to scout (FLY INTO THEIR BASE) very well unless they're massing turrets which means ur expoing will be that much faster. Engine bay + 4 Turrets == iEchoic Orbital Command. Most of the answers are pretty simple. This strategy isn't a wacky Picasso, it's all plainly stated in the OP. But here's some main points. VS BARRACKS iEchoic chooses when to engage after opening, and Hellions hold their own against marauder. FACTORY iEchoic chooses when to engage, and Thors only beat Banshee if iEchoic doesn't magic box. Battle Cruisers are good, and are an easy transition. STARPORT Even at worst for iEchoic. TURTLE iEchoic out expands the player spending money on static defenses. You make is sound as if this build is the answer to life the universe and everything.
No, he makes it sound as if the build is well thought out and has the ability to respond to what your opponent does, which every good build should have. The reason this build isn't all over the freaking place all the time is that it's harder to play well than other terran builds, and it requires a very high level of execution, micro, and multitasking. You're required to take map control, harass, keep macro'ing, micro your units against their units well in any engagement, and numerous other things. It's hard to do.
But it's a good build: that is, it doesn't automatically lose to another build, just because someone else decided to get a certain unit composition.
As for beating someone playing an iEchoic build, you need to protect your resource lines very carefully, and either hide starports and vikings until you can take air control (which is unlikely if they're playing well), or spend a lot more than you'd like on turrets. You can of course do reverse harass, groups of reapers are actually great against the iEchoic build for sniping off important buildings, because they're faster than hellions with the nitro-packs upgrade and can get in and out really fast. You just have to make better decisions and control better. That's the answer to beating a good build. If you can just make one unit composition and win easily, you're playing against a bad build. On the other hand, basically any style can work against the iEchoic build, as long as you're playing very well.
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On April 10 2011 18:09 Axeinst wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 17:27 abaitor wrote:
I hate how people aren't actually answering questions. People are treating the iechoic build like it's a religion Yeah thats what im feeling too
You're both starting to bother me. What's the point of talking here if you don't even bother to read our posts? Axeinst, if it does not dawn on you that simcity might be a good start to fight off hellion harass, even to the point of calling it "religious zeal" when I advise you this way, what I am feeling is that you aren't worth our time.
There are ways to beat this build. Tons of. But you won't find any if you keep being as narrow-minded as you are now. I'm not going to bother answering whining/unconstructive criticism anymore, that's too much time wasted on nothing.
Besides, we wouldn't give you a precise BO "autowinning" against this one because that's not how you improve nor learn strategic thinking.
But for everyone, yeah, 3-3 marauders/vikings on double the bases of the Echoic build player will utterly stomp the hellion/viking/banshee mix. That's right, so go on, do it and be happy with your deep game sense.
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To all the naysayers of this build I'd like to inform you of something.
The iechoic build does not auto-win versus any build. None. It has as hard a time against all builds.
Why?
Because when stripped down it's a build that depends on harrassment, map control and heavy macro. It forgoes brute strength in favor of speed.
Simcity well, place 1-3 strategic turrets and a few bunkers. Expand slowly but safely. When the big fight happens micro like a fiend. Spread your marines, target fire with tanks, stutter step with marauders etc... And you'll win. It's hard, and slow, and not unlike playing versus Zerg.
The strategies people already use can beat this strat. It's not a strat meant to counter anything, it's just a solid unit comp. That's it.
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I've been playing this strategy in TvT every game. The biggest weakness of this build is that it relies entirely on shutting down expansions and controlling the air. If you fail to control the air, then the game is over for you.
If my opponent is playing the same build, then I go marauder viking with a few ravens. The marauders level ground units and the vikings control the air. I think that marauder/tank/viking can counter iEchoic well if you manage to control the air with them.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 11 2011 09:23 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
I've been playing this strategy in TvT every game. The biggest weakness of this build is that it relies entirely on shutting down expansions and controlling the air. If you fail to control the air, then the game is over for you.
If my opponent is playing the same build, then I go marauder viking with a few ravens. The marauders level ground units and the vikings control the air. I think that marauder/tank/viking can counter iEchoic well if you manage to control the air with them.
All of this is mentioned in the opening post. If the person with the 2 starport build loses air control, he loses the game.
That's why the build is designed to give you a very easy way to control the air, by allowing you to produce more vikings than your opponent possibly can. As long as you are scouting and properly reacting, you won't lose air control: all your gas goes to air units, your enemy is spending gas on marauders and infantry upgrades.
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On April 11 2011 09:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 09:23 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
I've been playing this strategy in TvT every game. The biggest weakness of this build is that it relies entirely on shutting down expansions and controlling the air. If you fail to control the air, then the game is over for you.
If my opponent is playing the same build, then I go marauder viking with a few ravens. The marauders level ground units and the vikings control the air. I think that marauder/tank/viking can counter iEchoic well if you manage to control the air with them. All of this is mentioned in the opening post. If the person with the 2 starport build loses air control, he loses the game. That's why the build is designed to give you a very easy way to control the air, by allowing you to produce more vikings than your opponent possibly can. As long as you are scouting and properly reacting, you won't lose air control: all your gas goes to air units, your enemy is spending gas on marauders and infantry upgrades.
a gross oversimplification is this.
Imagine two players spent 100% of their gas on Vikings. Same number of starports, same amount of Econ.
With no gas, both players need mineral sinks.
Hellions > Marines
if a player spends gas on non-Vikings, he has one less Viking and suddenly loses control of the air. He loses.
Both players mass Vikings and one player spans hellions against marines? Hellions win.
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I think what we see with the iEchoic build is a fundamentally different way to play terran. The build is flexible, so you can't just say "xxx build order" or "xxx unit comp beats the iEchoic build." Its like trying to say "what build order always beats zerg?" The truth is that ZvT comes down to the skill of both players, the effectiveness of their scouting and decision making. Its the same with iEchoic vs standard Terran.
The standard player can adjust his play/decisions, and the iEchoic player can adjust well or poorly. Either player can micro well or poorly. Either player can make good or bad decisions about expansions and push timings.
So there really isn't an "autowin" decision for either player.
Personally I would love to see a player like qxc with his crazy harass micro take this build into tournaments. With the right mindset it has potential to make TvT more interesting, since it is essentially an "alternate" strategy and state of mind. What makes TvT less interesting is that both players are doing the same things.
What iEchoic isn't saying is that his build is fundamentally better than standard play; he is instead saying that you aren't forced to play standard. We can learn a lot from that mindset.
Just for reference, I have never used the iEchoic build as such, but I have played against it. The "not playing standard" part of my experience has been adjusting strategy and tactics in 2v2s - where 1v1 "standard" play is actually quite terrible.
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What happens if both players do this build? :O
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On April 11 2011 22:50 Nemasyst.598 wrote:
What happens if both players do this build? :O
lots of lols as the game transitios into grounded Vikings vs grounded Vikings.
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I'm sure its in here somewhere but the post is just too long...
My question is, how exactly do you guys micro your hellions to max damage against marines? My biggest problem with this build involve not being able to kill enough marines with my hellions in order to allow my banshees free reign.
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On April 12 2011 09:50 statikg wrote:
I'm sure its in here somewhere but the post is just too long...
My question is, how exactly do you guys micro your hellions to max damage against marines? My biggest problem with this build involve not being able to kill enough marines with my hellions in order to allow my banshees free reign.
this is why you need map control.
You attack move into the marine clump out in the open. Split your army into two groups to allow fr maximum and fast concave. Attack in a kind of Y where your two clumps attack on the same side and have space to form two small concaves that meet at the ends to form one large concave.
Upon firing a shot you have to retreat due to the slow attack speed of the hellions. You pull back and and time it so when you attack move again it's after the cooldowns is over.
Two shots + Stimmed marines = dead marines
3 shots + non-stimmed marines = dead marines without enough dps to kill the hellions. (the second attack move maneuver doesn't need a retreat)
on the second attack is when your banshees join the fight. The hellions would have dealt 48 splash damage to all the marines killing them or at the least putting them in one shot range if dying. Even still, kite with your banshees until the marines are dead. If they stimmed before the second attack then they die to blueflames. If they wait till the 2nd attack to stim then they can't stim and banshees can kite them all day. You win in both scenarios.
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On April 12 2011 10:29 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:50 statikg wrote:
I'm sure its in here somewhere but the post is just too long...
My question is, how exactly do you guys micro your hellions to max damage against marines? My biggest problem with this build involve not being able to kill enough marines with my hellions in order to allow my banshees free reign. this is why you need map control. You attack move into the marine clump out in the open. Split your army into two groups to allow fr maximum and fast concave. Attack in a kind of Y where your two clumps attack on the same side and have space to form two small concaves that meet at the ends to form one large concave. Upon firing a shot you have to retreat due to the slow attack speed of the hellions. You pull back and and time it so when you attack move again it's after the cooldowns is over. Two shots + Stimmed marines = dead marines 3 shots + non-stimmed marines = dead marines without enough dps to kill the hellions. (the second attack move maneuver doesn't need a retreat) on the second attack is when your banshees join the fight. The hellions would have dealt 48 splash damage to all the marines killing them or at the least putting them in one shot range if dying. Even still, kite with your banshees until the marines are dead. If they stimmed before the second attack then they die to blueflames. If they wait till the 2nd attack to stim then they can't stim and banshees can kite them all day. You win in both scenarios.
Won't this just hit the outer marines though? Wouldn't it be better to focus fire a marine in the middle of the clump?
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I would see if this is posted already, but there are 44 pages of posts, so i apologize if this has been brought up already.
What about sensor turrets? Couldn't this both make the build better and break the build?
Making the Build:
+ Show Spoiler +Adding sensor towers would make the map control work perfectly. First off, you see exactly where the opponents unit's are at all times. Second off, instead of needing to spend time sending your units off to scout, you can just wait for the minimap to show their movement, and then send a hellion to scout that, keeping your army reasonably together while still getting the information you need. This allows you to focus on making the units and expanding, rather than constantly scouting with units and scans.
Breaking the Build:
+ Show Spoiler +If the opponent gets a couple sensor towers in the right places, good luck with the whole harassment thing. They'll see it coming. As the OP said, the economic damage this does is a huge part of the build, and if the damage can not be done, the build ends up being less effective. Even if the opponent has an immobile mech army, he can put a couple tanks and turrets in your common paths and take care of your hellions and banshees.
Does this make sense, or am i just imagining things?
I haven't had an opportunity to try this out against anyone doing this build or incorporating this into my build, but i think this could have a big effect.
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United States7483 Posts
Sensor towers don't beat it, you forget that the iEchoic build has a really strong out if their opponent gets really worried about econ harassment and turtles hardcore: he outexpands you. Sensor towers aren't free, and while it does give a warning, it's not enough of one to have your units in position by the time the banshee is in your mineral line getting a couple kills, and it doesn't help against multi-pronged harass.
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Just my two cents in this, I've been playing with this and since most people go fast banshee for harass I usually end up getting viking/raven. In viking confrontations, a raven can REALLY tip the balance with the PDD. I'm not a mathelete, but I can see that even with 4 fewer vikings, a good PDD will win you the fight and you maintain air superiority.
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I almost never lose when I do a variation of this build(SEA GM), especially when I'm all warmed up. It's not an easy build by any means, you need to constantly keep your opponent on his toes, and if he can't keep up then he's going to die to just the harassment.
Constant hellion drops until he sieges + turrets his mineral, constant banshee harass until he turrets his whole base + tanks, while you expand more, get upgrades and build more units.
If he moves out you HAVE to pick off some units with either banshees or hellions. Poke here and there.
Don't let him build up turrets as he's pushing out.
Look at his viking/starport count and if he has armory.
Things I have lost to:
Thors
If he suddenly moves out with 2-3 thors with a substantial marine/ST army and you don't have BCs with air upgrades yet you'll be in trouble. Magic boxing thors is a cute move which doesn't work because stimmed marines are way too cost-effective against banshees, and the marine/st will melt your hellions while you can't pick their tanks off because of the thors.
BF Drop into Mass Marines + medivacs:
I've lost once to this where the guy just played brilliantly. We traded even amount of workers with our drops and he began getting stim, combat shields and just mass marine. He just played better with his movement and I didn't have two fact reactor to make enough hellions. Banshees got wrecked, etc. I think if well played this can counter Hellion/Banshee
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 11:23 statikg wrote:On April 12 2011 10:29 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:50 statikg wrote:
I'm sure its in here somewhere but the post is just too long...
My question is, how exactly do you guys micro your hellions to max damage against marines? My biggest problem with this build involve not being able to kill enough marines with my hellions in order to allow my banshees free reign. this is why you need map control. You attack move into the marine clump out in the open. Split your army into two groups to allow fr maximum and fast concave. Attack in a kind of Y where your two clumps attack on the same side and have space to form two small concaves that meet at the ends to form one large concave. Upon firing a shot you have to retreat due to the slow attack speed of the hellions. You pull back and and time it so when you attack move again it's after the cooldowns is over. Two shots + Stimmed marines = dead marines 3 shots + non-stimmed marines = dead marines without enough dps to kill the hellions. (the second attack move maneuver doesn't need a retreat) on the second attack is when your banshees join the fight. The hellions would have dealt 48 splash damage to all the marines killing them or at the least putting them in one shot range if dying. Even still, kite with your banshees until the marines are dead. If they stimmed before the second attack then they die to blueflames. If they wait till the 2nd attack to stim then they can't stim and banshees can kite them all day. You win in both scenarios. Won't this just hit the outer marines though? Wouldn't it be better to focus fire a marine in the middle of the clump?
The outer shell is the where the majority of the marines are in.
Focus firing into the middle of the clump only works in smaller armies where the marines haven't reached a critical mass where they deal enough DPS to kill all the hellions when the hellions engage to shoot point blank range at the marines.
The larger the army size, the more room you need to hit and run.
However, smaller army sizes you simply need to get good angles and 4-6 Hellions will kill a seemingly endless supply of marines before dying.
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EPT
