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On March 26 2011 23:15 Drinc wrote:
If you play against an opponent who knows what you're doing, he's going to deflect all your helion harasses and move out with 1-2 thors, b4 u have time to get out ONE BC.
Can anyone tell me how to stop this? Because this is the only problem i have with this build.
this is exactly how i beat this build nowadays im able to make two tanks with seige, a handful of marines in bunkers and push out with two thors a raven and some vikings and end the game right there, can even bring some delayed scvs to repair the thors after more of the hellions are dead, this build isnt really that strong anymore, heres an example
Pookie Vs NamhciR @ Metalopolis
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Great another all in to deal with on the ladder, Why don't players just learn mechanics and how to play long macro games so they can last around the scene for more than a few months? This build is very clever and well thought out through and from your replays looks difficult to stop. How does this build workout if someone were to meta game you in a tournament format? For example a FE on a map with a narrow choke for a natural and just FE into 3 racks with a bunker at the front to deny any type of hellion play?
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how exactly is this an all in... and lolz @ you saying iEchoic doesn't have mechanics.
This is a great build that has many amounts of transitions ..
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United States7483 Posts
On March 31 2011 00:17 LovE-z33k wrote:
how exactly is this an all in... and lolz @ you saying iEchoic doesn't have mechanics.
This is a great build that has many amounts of transitions ..
He's talking about the post just above his regarding tank/raven/thor all-ins to beat the iEchoic build. He's actually saying iEchoic's build is great. Don't jump to conclusions after reading a single post, read the whole thread.
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Damn, played against it today and thought mid way into the game (it was a decently long game with 4 bases) that HSM might be useful against mass air. So I got 2 or 3 ravens, and damn, at the final confrontation I think I fired 2 HSMs and everything just EXPLODED. Holy cow, HSM is strong against air.
The new BCs are quite scary, but actually I fear usual terran play more than this strategy at ~Top 300-400 EU.
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On March 31 2011 00:20 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 00:17 LovE-z33k wrote:
how exactly is this an all in... and lolz @ you saying iEchoic doesn't have mechanics.
This is a great build that has many amounts of transitions .. He's talking about the post just above his regarding tank/raven/thor all-ins to beat the iEchoic build. He's actually saying iEchoic's build is great. Don't jump to conclusions after reading a single post, read the whole thread.
??? how is what i posted an all in? did anyone bother to watch the replay?
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lol i expanded before NamhciR but im the one doing an all in build? thats funny
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If he makes starport with reactor what should i do???
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On April 02 2011 04:18 Rexar123 wrote:
If he makes starport with reactor what should i do???
2 starports with 2 reactors
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On April 02 2011 04:18 Rexar123 wrote:
If he makes starport with reactor what should i do???
He he's using all his gas for vikings, he's not getting ground gas units, which means marines, and hellions kill off marines. you just need good awareness of what he's producing at the time and adjust your build accordingly while getting extra expos for the additional gas to stay ahead.
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tnx for tip if he turtles up with tank marine bunker turres do i jusst mass expwnd??
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How do i deal with a TvT push whch involves a banshee+a tank+rines? Since this requires bith reactions.
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On April 02 2011 17:45 thoradycus wrote:
How do i deal with a TvT push whch involves a banshee+a tank+rines? Since this requires bith reactions.
Well Viking + Banshee + Hellions: you charge in with the hellions kill all marines then you kill the banshee with your viking and the tank with your banshee... Everything without thors is not so hard to stop i think.
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Hello Echoic, at first thanks for your strategy, they are very explicit and very complete. I already use your 1/1/2 drop hellion for which I’ve a very high percentage of win. I’m analyzing your new TvT build that I consider very interesting but I have a question: If the another Terran do a fast harass banshee, how many time we have before our first Viking+raven ?
Thank you in advance Echoic and again thank you for sharing your builds.
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It's heavily map-dependent. Since most of my opponents seem to open cloaked banshee these times, I've been able to try it, and w/o a perfect execution there is about 10-15 seconds before banshees arrive. About.
I stopped a 2 port cloaked banshees on XNC with viking and raven popping right when the banshees arrived, but I think he might have been late. I lost like 5-6 scvs on metalopolis close positions (and obliterated 2/3rd of his mineral line in retaliation).
It could be devastating on shattered temple or metal close air positions, though. I guess in these cases you'd need to use your drop to threaten him and force him to use his banshee to defend.
The thing is, you need to scout your opponent's mix: if he seems to go for an early attack (3 rax for example, or the marine poke of a 2 rax FE), you'll need more hellions, but if he's obviously teching, you can skip one or two hellions to get your starports earlier. You'll be limited by your minerals at the beginning, not the gas (it's really smooth in this regard actually). Only marines, or more importantly, a bunker at the front are tells of a banshee/thor/hellion drop.
I got wrecked on Scrap Station by a thor rush/drop btw. 
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Thank you for saving me from the boring, traditional, TvT!
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I find that when I play against S1 3500+ Masters Terrans, having Viking battles is really tough when he goes reactored starport. I usually mix it up by getting about 1-2 banshees, a Raven, mass vikings to dominate his. Those 1-2 banshees really eliminate any tanks, with hellions that you dump your minerals into to kill his marines. Then it just becomes a micro battle, which is exactly why I love this build :D.
More and more people are trying to use Thors to counter the build, but all you gotta do is spread your banshees (magic box style)
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I find that this build is best on cross positions or on gigantic maps (typhon peaks anybody?)
On smallers maps or closer positions I notice it struggles against several openers, including:
1rax FE into bunker front+ turrets in main/natural + expansion
The extra scans, the bunker's immunity to hellions, and the faster economy truly punishes the harassment potential. Once Thors, marauders, and vikings come into play, it becomes very hard as they've been sitting on a superior economy for a bit.
Reaper openings
Anything involving more than two reapers is extremely troublesome. It really hurts hellions in small numbers, and can easily pick off your measly 2 marines. Not to mention the scouting provided allows them to fully spread out their units in preparation for a harassment drop
Ghost Opening
This one is a nightmare, as the anti-light + emp + marine support really hurts. 1-2 ghosts to complement a marine/marauder army rips apart hellions before they get enough splash damage in, emp the banshees, and in general, ruins your day 
However this is still a very viable and very powerful build in TvT. I look forward to economic variations on the larger maps. As two base 4fact 4 starport iechoic provides such mobility and harassment potential that on maps such as Taldarim Altar and Typhon Peaks, it is extremely powerful.
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On April 08 2011 03:54 VictorX wrote:I find that this build is best on cross positions or on gigantic maps (typhon peaks anybody?) On smallers maps or closer positions I notice it struggles against several openers, including: 1rax FE into bunker front+ turrets in main/natural + expansion The extra scans, the bunker's immunity to hellions, and the faster economy truly punishes the harassment potential. Once Thors, marauders, and vikings come into play, it becomes very hard as they've been sitting on a superior economy for a bit. Reaper openings Anything involving more than two reapers is extremely troublesome. It really hurts hellions in small numbers, and can easily pick off your measly 2 marines. Not to mention the scouting provided allows them to fully spread out their units in preparation for a harassment drop Ghost Opening This one is a nightmare, as the anti-light + emp + marine support really hurts. 1-2 ghosts to complement a marine/marauder army rips apart hellions before they get enough splash damage in, emp the banshees, and in general, ruins your day However this is still a very viable and very powerful build in TvT. I look forward to economic variations on the larger maps. As two base 4fact 4 starport iechoic provides such mobility and harassment potential that on maps such as Taldarim Altar and Typhon Peaks, it is extremely powerful.
Not sure where EMP really matters. You're not making bio for your medivacs to heal, and you're not getting cloak for your banshees (At least iEchoic doesn't.) 1 Ghost is actually less DPS to banshees than 2 marines, though they aren't 2shotted by hellions.
I could definitely see reaper openings being tricky to deal with, though... Not sure.
2base 4fact 4starport? No way do you have the gas to support 4 starports on 2 base. Maybe on 3, though I would expect 3 starport + 1-2x armory would be better at that point.
Remember the transition to 2base is supported by adding reactors onto your factories, rather than adding new production buildings
What upgrade would you go for? Air armor seems great since anything that's going to kick you out of the sky is small damage shots (thor, marine.)
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I'd rather get vehicle plating first, as I noticed most of my non-BO losses are from either:
- losing air superiority,
- or not forcing engagements often enough, and since as numbers grow marines become better against hellions I don't have enough of those to kill all the marines, spelling doom on my long-to-build army
Also, whatever happens if your opponent goes bio he'll likely get infantery weapons soon enough (armor would be a waste, unless he can set up some marauder/viking, as hellions do too much damage to marines for 1 armor to matter), drastically increasing his bio's efficiency against your army.
As ship's plating is less likely to be of use (there should be almost nothing to shoot air when your banshees waltz in) while hellions will always tank hits on their kamikaze run, vehicle plating seems more important to me, even vital if you go for too long without "trading" armies (of course you don't want to trade with a slowly-building, expensive army against marines!).
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EPT
