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Hey, I've been trying out this build for a while now and I really like it.
I only have one question, how do you play against someone who goes 1-1-1 into BF helion drops? helions aren't the most effective against other helions, so are your 2 marines, also, your two marines wont do much damage to the medvac... Overall Im really confused as to what you're supposed to do against this kind of play?
Only thing I can think of right now is to do the same to him, drop helions, however your oponent gets that drop out faster considering he's opening with only one factory compared to two...
I am pretty confused about this, other than that I really like the build good job.
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On March 11 2011 11:04 GinDo wrote:
Personally i find Mech to be the best solution. Their aren't any "hardcounters" which demonstrates how solid Hellion Banshee is as a TvT composition.
Actually hellion & banshee composition is hard countered by thor or mass viking. The problem is, that iEchoic opener can transition to something else.
The reason why people consider this build as "solid" with no counters, is that player with this build opener has time to transition to something else if he sees that there is thors or mass vikings coming (we could question, is that iEchoic build anymore after that if strategy needs to be changed).
But the actual hellion & banshee gameplay (described by iEchoic) does have counters. Player just can not go for banshees and hellions if enemy has been building thors or vikings.
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My first post here. I have to write something about this build because it has helped me a lot. I had problems with the siege tank+viking race and usually lost. With this build I usually win my TvTs. But as always you usually have to play better and make better transitions to win.
One composition I've had problems with is Thors+Marauders. I scouted the Thor and started with BCs but before my first was out he was outside my natural. I lost all my army and I probably could have done better, he didn't lose much at all. What is the best reaction? My thought are either:
1) Sac the natural and do a counter attack. With good wall in I can get some BCs and more hellions out while my natural gets destroyed.
2) Try to focus fire the Thors and micro by Banshees hard so I don't lose too many. I'm not sure this will work, Marauders kills Hellions pretty fast.
3) ???
The best thing is of course to scout in time or don't let the army reach your base with constant harassment, but sometimes you fail and what I want to know is the best thing to react in the situation described above. Assume about the same army sizes, Hellion+Banshee+Viking vs Thos+Marauder.
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sounds very good.. but would you not say building a bunker to counter early 2rax would be much better than macroing ur SCVs? u can always salvage ur bunker later
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Congrats on the blue background.
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On March 11 2011 09:33 Enforcerone wrote:
This is a fucking rediculously stupidly build..
All i get in ladder now is people who spam air so to get upper hand in this the one who makes more vikings wins and u have to spam vikings whole game because both are trying to win the air battle.
Fucking stupid idea and 100 times worse than tanks.
Thanks for ruining TvT.
Hope this stupid idea will wear OUT soon!
This build is probably only used by 10% of top Terrans. I would hardly call that ruining T v T. It's just one viable option out of dozens.
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This build is great. I used to play Zerg and am switching to Terran because it's a lot easier and can be 100% more creative with builds like these. I picked this up, read it over and haven't lost a TvT yet. Perhaps it's because as he says, this build plays like a Zerg, but I understand it completely and it really dominates any Terran that hasn't seen it.
Really wish Zerg could have creative builds like this but since they can't, I'll be sticking with Terran. Thanks for helping my switch over iEchoic.
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I have a question about this build.
If you see a big incoming push of tanks/marines or just marines/marauders against you, do you still send 4 hellions to his base ?
I've had this dilema a few times in the last days. A few facts emerge from this situation:
1- You can easily kill all his scvs if he is attacking you
2- By the time his push hit you should have about 2 hellions at home + 1 banshee almost done, which could hold the push but requiring very focused micro.
3- It's almost impossible to micro both your attack and defend your main properly as hellions are very micro-intensive units.
So far in this situation, I decided to go ahead with the 4 hellions drop with rather poor results. I was able to kill all his scvs, but then back at home my defending hellions died and too many marines stayed alive to keep the banshees effective. In almost all case it resulted in a base trade, and then the game become very unpredictable.
Here is a few options regarding the situation (seeing an incoming scary push):
1- Still send 4 hellions to his base and focus on killing his economy.
2- Keep the 4 hellions at home, defend, and drop him afterwards.
3- Send only 2 hellions, keeping the other 2 for defense.
Another question is: Do you focus your micro on attacking or defending ?
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I just ran this build through the build order optimizer here.
Very interesting results:
+ Show Spoiler +10 Supply Depot
11 Barracks (Naked)
14 Refinery
15 Refinery
15 Marine
16 Orbital Command
16 Marine
18 Supply Depot
18 Calldown MULE
18 Factory (Naked)
22 Supply Depot
22 Factory Tech Lab
23 Calldown MULE
23 Infernal Pre-igniter
24 Starport (Naked)
24 Hellion
26 Move SCV To Gas
26 Factory (Naked)
27 Hellion
30 Supply Depot
31 Starport (Naked)
31 Medivac
33 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Hellion
35 Move SCV To Minerals
36 Hellion
38 Move SCV To Gas
38 Move SCV To Gas
38 Move SCV To Gas
38 Calldown MULE
All finished at 6:42.06
I think I'm still gonna stick with the original build, though.
EDIT: Wow, the program saved .1 seconds by moving more SCVs from the refineries. I'll ignore it since it leaves you with less gas for Banshees/Vikings, but I'll put it here just incase anybody wants to see.
+ Show Spoiler +10 Supply Depot
11 Barracks (Naked)
13 Refinery
15 Marine
16 Refinery
17 Supply Depot
17 Marine
20 Lift Barracks (Naked)
20 Factory (Naked)
21 Orbital Command
21 Factory Tech Lab
22 Calldown MULE
23 Hellion
25 Infernal Pre-igniter
26 Supply Depot
26 Starport (Naked)
26 Factory (Naked)
28 Hellion
30 Move SCV To Gas
31 Starport (Naked)
31 Medivac
33 Calldown Extra Supplies
33 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Hellion
35 Move SCV To Minerals
36 Hellion
38 Move SCV To Gas
38 Move SCV To Gas
38 Move SCV To Gas
38 Move SCV To Gas
38 Move SCV To Gas
38 Move SCV To Gas
Very big post, I know.
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i was wondering what you should do against a tank/marine rush
banshees didn't come out in time until the tanks were sieged right outside my base. as he was pushing out i only had the 2 hellions, which managed to clean up most of the marines. he also made turrets, which i could have possibly sniped the scv but i messed up (my banshee wasn't out in time). if his tanks are sieged with turrets, should i just abandon my base, and just hellion drop and use banshees at my opponents base? (base trade)
i couldn't scount much because it was the last position on the new metalopolis like map, and the hellion pokes only saw like 4-5 marines at the ramp. scan shouldn't be used right this early right? he scanned me pretty early and scouted my 2 factory/starport so he brought scvs along to make turrets in the marine/tank push.
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On March 12 2011 01:42 drcatellino wrote:
I have a question about this build.
If you see a big incoming push of tanks/marines or just marines/marauders against you, do you still send 4 hellions to his base ?
Another question is: Do you focus your micro on attacking or defending ?
If I see a big push incoming of MMM, I'll drop 2 hellions quickly and clean up as many SCVs as I can, as soon as I see the push getting close to my ramp, I change my focus to defending, and sometimes stop microing my dropped SCVs (they shouldn't have any units you need to micro against if they moved out to attack, and if they left stuff behind, you shouldn't need to do much micro back at your base to defend)
Simple answer, make sure you can stay alive, that's your priority, so microing defense should be primary, if you're close spawns you can delay the drop and use the hellions on the map to try to pick of marines and slow their attack, and then as soon as they commit just drop/elevator them into their main. If you're dieing to early pressure, then firstly, make sure you're not screwing up any of the timings and your macro is nice and clean, then check and see if you could have micro'd your hellions better to pick off marines, then check and see if your banshee micro was butchered or not.
So priority list goes as follows:
1) Maintaining map control and picking off marines as they stream out to attack
2) Preventing marines/marauders from running up your ramp into your base (hellion micro).
3) Cleaning up with the banshee, if your first banshee dies, it's most likely because you messed up on 1 or 2, but it could possibly be something to do with ur banshee micro, try pulling SCVs on auto repair to keep the hellions alive longer or absorb some damage, allowing you to pick off more marines.
4) Doing damage with a drop.
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Just a big shout out to the new patch 1.3, BC's get a massive speed boost, this really really really helps out this build, as any strategy not involving thors will get beat pretty easily by this build, and BC's dont' take any damage from thors or marines, meaning if they go MMM, you can keep your mobility and should be able to out expo them and win through harass (forcing PFs, tanks,bunkers, turrets, or just killing a shit ton of SCVs)
If you see thors, now you can safely get BCs without having it completely turn your army in a PF being dragged by a turtle with 1 leg.
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On March 13 2011 10:43 akalarry wrote:
i was wondering what you should do against a tank/marine rush
banshees didn't come out in time until the tanks were sieged right outside my base. as he was pushing out i only had the 2 hellions, which managed to clean up most of the marines. he also made turrets, which i could have possibly sniped the scv but i messed up (my banshee wasn't out in time). if his tanks are sieged with turrets, should i just abandon my base, and just hellion drop and use banshees at my opponents base? (base trade)
i couldn't scount much because it was the last position on the new metalopolis like map, and the hellion pokes only saw like 4-5 marines at the ramp. scan shouldn't be used right this early right? he scanned me pretty early and scouted my 2 factory/starport so he brought scvs along to make turrets in the marine/tank push.
When I see a big marine tank push coming I harass it with hellions, try and pick off enough marines so that all thats left is tanks, then counter his base with my hellions. His tanks aren't going to hurt you all on their lonesome. You can just stall with him outside until your banshees pop and then take out his tanks.
This is what has worked so far for me.
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United States12 Posts
Hey TL!
Long time lurker, first time poster here. Due to the TL rule, I can't create a new post for three days, so I decided that this would be the appropriate post to put it in.
First off, thank you to TL! This is an awesome site and I've learned a lot from these forums. Also, a big thank you to Iechoic. I absolutely hated marine-tank-vike for TvT and his thoughtful strategy gave us a new option.
Now on to my post. I really like Iechoic's TvT build and have used it since I read about it. However, as Terrans began to get used to this style of play, I found it more difficult to execute. I already had some trouble with the micro intensive first drop while keeping up with my macro, so if the drop failed to do damage, I often found myself in a difficult spot.
Analysis
I asked myself: is it possible to make the drop stronger and do more damage? To make the drop more powerful, it would need more units. However, I also wanted it to hit about the same time as a normal blue flame drop using Iechoic's build. This meant that I needed to cut something from the build to get more resources.
I looked at the build and noticed that it gets 5 production facilities (only 4 of which are in use) very quickly. This is the build's strength, allowing the player to adapt with the 2 factories and 2 starports. However, I also noticed that often times, the barracks often sat idle in the first 5 minutes of the game. On his posts and interview with Day9, Iechoic discussed how the barracks could be useful in making add ons. So instead of building more production facilities, I wondered if I could achieve the same effect via add ons.
Analysis: The Marauder
But what unit to add to the drop? We all know how deadly an 8 marauder drop can be on a base's infrastructure. In essence, the marauder serves the opposite purpose of the hellion: to destroy structures and armored units. The hellion, as awesome as it is, is absolutely horrible at the latter. How useful would a few rauders be thrown into the mix?
Execution
I admit, I don't have a perfect build order down. I came to this forum to share the idea before putting more work into it. Generally, the opening follows Iechoic's build until the factories go down. I'll note deviations in bold.
10 supply
12 rax
13 ref
15 OC
15 make one marine, do NOT queue another; instead make a techlab
16 ref
16-17 supply
(supply counts discontinued from here - keep making scvs nonstop)
At Techlab Completion: Marauder
At 150 minerals 100 Gas: Factory
Marauder
Marauder
After 3rd Marauder, Switch Barracks and Factory
make 1 hellion & get preigniter
-keep pumping hellions
Starport
At 50 mineral 50 gas: Barracks builds reactor
At 100% Starport: switch with barracks
2 Medivacs
At 50 mineral 50 gas: Barracks builds reactor
By the time the medivacs complete, you should have 3 marauders and 3-4 hellions. Go Drop with this force.
As your drop is moving, swap the factory onto the barracks reactor. Pump out 2 vikes and build a second starport then second factory when resources allow.
Why it works
This isn't a true "why it works" since I've only played a few games with it and much of it is, in all honesty, theoretical. Also, after the first drop, your production facilities will be more or less identical to Iechoic's build. We all know why that build works already.
But as for the drop itself, you have 3 marauders and 4 hellions. Often times (nowadays) the opposing Terran will have a siege tank or two backed up by marines or a bioball. If they react quickly, they can minimize SCV damage by either forcing your hellions back or destroying them altogether. Marauders also pose a pretty significant threat to just 4 hellions. This is where the Marauder comes in.
Against Sieged Tanks
Tanks are great against marauders...if there are a lot of them and they are in an open field. In smaller numbers, rauders are superior. Attacking early means 1. Less tanks and 2. Medevacs can help rauders avoid damage.
If your hellions start taking tank fire, retreat for a moment. Load up your rauders into your two med evacs and drop on top of the tank. If there is a second tank, micro your rauders to get into the medevac at the last possible moment before death. Keep your hellions ready to roast the supporting marines.
Against the Bioball
Get your rauders, medevacs, and hellions together. Use rauders to focus the other rauders and hellions on the marines.
You will take damage. You will take losses. But you should be able to kill the defending forces or at least whittle them down so your hellions can go off to roast a few more scvs and/or rauders can destroy tech/supply/refineries. When their reinforcements start to overwhelm you, load up and head back home. Continue Iechoic style as normal :D.
Where YOU Come in
As with every build, this modified version of Iechoic's build will have it's weaknesses. But, 2 minds are better than one. So first, what problems do you see with this modified opener? Second, is there a way to fix that problem?
The most obvious one I can see is the fact that the second star port comes out a little later. This means you have to choose between Raven/Banshee/Viking initially. I've also been lol rolled by a marine tank push as I was dropping. I probably should have done what he did: lift off and relocate. If there is enough interest, I will dig around for that replay.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197622.jpg)
note: this is against a bioball with a somewhat fast expand. I know my macro slips pretty badly during the drop and my micro isn't the greatest, but it demonstrates how devastating the first drop can be. For reference, I am a top 8 diamond player.
Thanks for reading!
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Well that's a great first post. Interesting idea, could be useful to counter the siege tank protected mineral line that players seems to be opting for these days to fight iEchoic.
However, it seems very vulnerable to cloaked banshees opening. Thats what the two early starports are for in the original build: quick raven and viking if needed.
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@Rischardo - nice post. I've been thinking about a way to modify the build to my tastes as well. With your build (making only marauder/hellion at first) would you be really vulnerable to a fast cloaked banshee? Or would your vikings pop in time to let you survive?
I'm toying around with another variant but going 1/1/2 instead of 1/2/2 straight off the bat . . . producing more marines in the early game to defend better vs early bio pushes and early banshees, and trying to get your own bashee out a little faster to defend against rushed tank pushes. Still just experimenting with it though.
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I like this start as well. I would actually say it could work better against zerg. You dont have to go banshees after this, it could work better transitioning into something else.
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On March 12 2011 01:42 drcatellino wrote:
I have a question about this build.
If you see a big incoming push of tanks/marines or just marines/marauders against you, do you still send 4 hellions to his base ?
I've had this dilema a few times in the last days. A few facts emerge from this situation:
1- You can easily kill all his scvs if he is attacking you
2- By the time his push hit you should have about 2 hellions at home + 1 banshee almost done, which could hold the push but requiring very focused micro.
3- It's almost impossible to micro both your attack and defend your main properly as hellions are very micro-intensive units.
So far in this situation, I decided to go ahead with the 4 hellions drop with rather poor results. I was able to kill all his scvs, but then back at home my defending hellions died and too many marines stayed alive to keep the banshees effective. In almost all case it resulted in a base trade, and then the game become very unpredictable.
Here is a few options regarding the situation (seeing an incoming scary push):
1- Still send 4 hellions to his base and focus on killing his economy.
2- Keep the 4 hellions at home, defend, and drop him afterwards.
3- Send only 2 hellions, keeping the other 2 for defense.
Another question is: Do you focus your micro on attacking or defending ?
Just send 2 hellions. 2 blue flames are enough to roast all his scvs if there is no defense there.
and if you don't have the apm to bounce back and forth, its more important you don't die than it is killing his scvs.
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I just get better with banshee-hellion-viking-raven mix over time. Makes me like it more. I feel it's finally the final playstyle of TvT. Anything that's supposed to counter you doesn't have the same speed, mobility, harassment and economy damage capability as this unit mix, doesn't counter you hard enough, have as solid of a mineral to gas ratio, or the same flexibility. As a side benefit, the micro is variable and intensive enough to make a mirror build match fun enough to continue doing.
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United States12 Posts
Thanks for the comments!
As stated in my post, the second starport is in fact delayed and forces you to choose what air unit to get first. I thought I went up against a banshee rush recently, but it turned out to be a standard iechoic build lol. Replay is below.
Personally, I don't rush cloaked Banshees, so I don't know how quickly it can be done. I do know that it feels like cloaked banshees typically hit about the same time as my drop. I can think of two possible solutions to this:
First, just save a scan for your vikings. While a properly microed or two prong banshee attack will negate this, this variant merely delays the second star port. You only need to buy yourself some time until the Raven can get out. The great thing about blue flame harass vs. banshee harass is that blue flame gets the job done so much faster. You could even dance your SCVs around or set them to auto repair each other to buy more time while your drop wrecks havoc.
The other option is to get a raven after med evacs. Sounds preposterous, I know, but a vike or two is on the way. The raven pops with enough energy to put an auto-turret down which, if repaired, should be enough to deter the banshee from your mineral line until the vikes come online.
Against a standard banshee rush, the enemy terran most likely doesn't have anything more than marines and banshees. Your drop should be able to take out the defending forces then your rauders should kill the techlabs. Techlabs should be targeted anyways; you want to keep your opponent on basic units as long as possible.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197654.jpg)
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EPT
