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On February 27 2011 02:06 orKisT wrote:
With all due respect to Mr. Echoic, I submit my own humble thoughts on countering this build as a 2200 Master Terran:
Proxy Banshee Cloak Rush
This is my standard tvt opener. The key to the proxy port is obviously location, and, there are certain spots on the map where you can always get away with a proxy port. I consider it safe enough that I do a proxy every single game. TVT is by far my best matchup.
One detail to my proxy port strategy is that I include a very early tech lab on my factory at my main so that a scan would make it appear as if I am rushing tank, when really, I am rushing banshee with a port very close to his main.
Anyways, I have found that people that go Echoics build do not build Towers. Thus, if you can survive the initial hellion harass, you generally have map control with your banshees until the Raven comes out. During this time, I have been able inflict great damage on my opponents economy.
After the initial two banshees, I throw up more Starports and just start massing Tank-Viking.
To counter the hellions, I have been working on walling off my mineral line and placing a tank in my mineral line.
In any event, I just wanted to say that I win the great majority of my TVTs performing this opening, including against Echoic's new build!
Cloaked banshee FTW, business as usual for humanity.
(first TL post! so be nice!)
I would love to see some replays of this build, just for my own educational purposes  I'm just a plat Terren and TvT is my worst matchup. This sounds interesting to me.
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I have some troubles if the player simply goes marine tanks.
He just protects his marines "in" his tanks, so I cannot kill the marines, because the helions get pulverized in < 1 seconds.
Kinda the same way when banelings get stomped by tanks imo.
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I would love to see some replays of this build, just for my own educational purposes I'm just a plat Terren and TvT is my worst matchup. This sounds interesting to me.
Here is a master league match I played last night using the proxy banshee opening vs Echoic's build. Sorry for the media fire link, SC2Replayed doesn't accept replays from the latest patch yet.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/xrpc6kmax405jpu/Banshee Opening v. Echoic's TVT.SC2Replay
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On February 27 2011 02:27 Heavy Note wrote:
I have some troubles if the player simply goes marine tanks.
He just protects his marines "in" his tanks, so I cannot kill the marines, because the helions get pulverized in < 1 seconds.
Kinda the same way when banelings get stomped by tanks imo.
I think you want to play that exactly as if you're playing muta/baneling. That can be the hard part, you don't want to charge sieged tanks. But you can abuse how immobile they are, poke everywhere, pull marines out of position, make them turtle up. It's hard to break them, so you just have to make sure you expand more and keep them contained. If they unsiege and move out you can easily swarm them. Just like Zerg, I have problems on small maps like Steppes of War where they can tank crawl to your front very quickly, especially if they turret push. But marine tank loses to muta baneling all the time, and we have to fight it in the same way. The games I lose to marine tank are usually because I am too reckless and I don't expand enough. Honestly it's so much more fun than siege tanks I would be fine with a 30% win ratio. Luckily I'm still about 50/50 but it's never been a BO loss, just sloppy play.
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Hyperdub did a varation of this build in the gsl against immvp it didnt exactly work in the end but it caught immvp with his pants down in quite a few encounters, I dont think hyperdub had the build quite right but i think in the right hands this build could flourish in the gsl, Artosis even gave echoic some love for the build during the game.
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With the new maps like red stone glutch, this build will be better as the maps are so open u can generally avoid tanks.
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Liking this build. Does it work against any races?
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On February 27 2011 20:40 Axeaman wrote:
Liking this build. Does it work against any races?
The reason this works in TvT is because marines are the staple A-A unit , and it is light. While hellions do only a huge amount of damage to light.
So for example, in ZvT, the staple anti air unit is the mutalisk. Which both the hellion nor the bashee can hit. In PvT, the staple anti-air unit is stalkers, which are armoured so they recieve less damage from the hellions, and can blink to take out out of position banshees.
It does not work effectively in other match ups. Unless for example in ZvT where the zerg decided the only AA he was going to make that game was hydralisks, in which case, you could have finished him off with marine tank anyway.
Thats not to say about a banshee/viking techswitch in the lategame in TvZ though, I think that is pretty effective considering you do good damage against both ultralisks and broodlords. I've been pulled off guard by these tech switches a couple of times now and its pretty annoying to deal with.
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Question what if a Player goes ghost? they are neither Light nor Armored and deal double damage vs Hellions and Banshees
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I'm new to TVT and also don't like using the seige tanks as much as i do in other math ups, so this i will be trying alot. also might help me keep minerals down easier. thx for post!
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On February 27 2011 21:17 Blasterion wrote:
Question what if a Player goes ghost? they are neither Light nor Armored and deal double damage vs Hellions and Banshees
They wouldn't have enough ghosts to deal with your army. Ghosts aren't a viable unit en mass because they are far too expensive to produce(150 minerals/150 gas). Their primary purpose is as a spellcaster.
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On February 27 2011 21:14 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 20:40 Axeaman wrote:
Liking this build. Does it work against any races? The reason this works in TvT is because marines are the staple A-A unit , and it is light. While hellions do only a huge amount of damage to light. So for example, in ZvT, the staple anti air unit is the mutalisk. Which both the hellion nor the bashee can hit. In PvT, the staple anti-air unit is stalkers, which are armoured so they recieve less damage from the hellions, and can blink to take out out of position banshees. It does not work effectively in other match ups. Unless for example in ZvT where the zerg decided the only AA he was going to make that game was hydralisks, in which case, you could have finished him off with marine tank anyway. Thats not to say about a banshee/viking techswitch in the lategame in TvZ though, I think that is pretty effective considering you do good damage against both ultralisks and broodlords. I've been pulled off guard by these tech switches a couple of times now and its pretty annoying to deal with.
I've found it has worked very well vs protoss (me). If you abuse cliffs at expansions with banshees you are able to do tons of damage to stalkers because banshees can stack, while stalkers can not. Eventually you need all your stalkers defending agenst banshees, which allows blue flame hellions to wreck you eco.
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On February 26 2011 19:29 valheru wrote:
^^seconded.
20 seconds is a long time and BC speed went up by about 30% 1.4 to 1.8.
For those of you who don't understand what a 30% speed difference is, that's the difference between kiting zerglings on creep vs off creep.
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QXC's games against WhiteRa today definitely seemed inspired by this build....
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United States7483 Posts
On February 28 2011 02:13 -Mav- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 21:17 Blasterion wrote:
Question what if a Player goes ghost? they are neither Light nor Armored and deal double damage vs Hellions and Banshees They wouldn't have enough ghosts to deal with your army. Ghosts aren't a viable unit en mass because they are far too expensive to produce(150 minerals/150 gas). Their primary purpose is as a spellcaster.
That's actually not true. I played some TvT's recently where I did just that, after watching Noblesse open ghosts in Code A vs. Maka prime. You can maintain constant ghost production off one base and get marines from other barracks. Then it becomes a battle of killing the hellions before they kill your workers or marines. With clever and careful cloak usage, you can wipe out large groups of hellions with a few ghosts well before they engage your marines. Nukes are also very useful, since one good nuke can take out a bunch of add-ons and completely stop banshee production and slow hellion production etc. You don't really need them 'massed', hellions just do no damage to them and once you get 4-5 they just tear through banshees and hellions. Especially since you can cloak them too, and get a nice sexy headstart. They're also great for EMP'ing ravens, and sniping scv's.
You can also safely expand with a ghost opening vs. the iEchoic opener, just not a fast expand. Get a few ghosts and some marines at each mineral line and you're fine, ghosts demolish banshees with ease so those are a non-issue. You also don't need to use scans, EMP beats their cloak. You can easily punish their expansions with some good nuke usage too, especially since hellions don't kill ghosts anywhere near fast enough, and he has to pull his banshees back to kill the ghosts to stop nukes from falling. It's not a counter to the iEchoic build, but it does fare very well against it, and is perhaps less demanding than other builds.
I didn't save the replays unfortunately, but if I play some more I'll get them up here.
EDIT: I should mention that you are still somewhat vulnerable to hellion drops, but the first one doesn't come until you push out, so you have time to build up enough ghosts and marines to slow expand safely. The iEchoic player expands before you, so you need to punish it. A couple ghost academies with nukes take map control back from the iEchoic player.
If he doesn't keep banshees and hellions near his base, he gets nuked. The units are fast, but usually aren't fast enough to get back to their base and kill the ghosts before it lands, especially since he has to figure out where the nuke is landing and find the ghost before he can attack it. Ghosts have a lot of hp and aren't light, the only unit in the game that does bonus damage to a ghost is an archon. Most players undervalue the damage nuke does, because people use them wrong. Do not nuke worker lines: he'll get his workers out of there and take almost no damage. Rather, nuke supply depots and add-ons, or send 3 ghosts to nuke in one spot so you take out actual production facilities.
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MKP, y u no get blue flame!? Its a shame since I think he could've taken the game with it in the initial push in his game in gsl with a modified version of your build.
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On March 02 2011 08:53 dizzy101 wrote:
QXC's games against WhiteRa today definitely seemed inspired by this build....
any replay links?
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Banshee rushes are extra effiient when unscouted.
It's a sad day to have two scans but no unit that can shoot up.
I now am really careful to make sure the opponent isn't banshee rushing. You don't have clutch marines you can feel safe behind. I've lost 2 games where I watched 1 uncloaked banshee killing my depots while all I had was an army of hellions.
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On February 28 2011 02:13 -Mav- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 21:17 Blasterion wrote:
Question what if a Player goes ghost? they are neither Light nor Armored and deal double damage vs Hellions and Banshees They wouldn't have enough ghosts to deal with your army. Ghosts aren't a viable unit en mass because they are far too expensive to produce(150 minerals/150 gas). Their primary purpose is as a spellcaster.
I dont think he means mass ghost, but either maka's ghost build or the TvP marine ghost timing attack might work with this build, since the ghost will help greatly with killing those first few hellions and banshee.
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after some other games, this build seems very unstable vs really early rines only + scv allin, when your blue flame is not yet done and you dont have the critical amount of helions
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EPT
