Hello all.
I have been tying this build against terran and I love it! It makes TvT fun! But I have one little problem. I am having trubble killing them of. You can't attack them if use static defence.

I realise that I make many misstakes but I did feal that I was in the lead a long time. What what my BIG error in this game?

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/27035963/download/Steppes_of_War.SC2Replay

Thanks all!

shutdown_exploded

United States133 Posts

February 23 2011 16:20 GMT

#702

On February 24 2011 00:33 CowWithGun wrote:
. I am having trubble killing them of. You can't attack them if use static defence.

you don't have to?
expand all over the entire map.
once you get about 10 banshees you can lol at turrets.
but if it's like steps of war and they ring their base with turrets and refuse to leave, get double air upgrades and and yamato cannon.

Tyrannon

Germany113 Posts

February 23 2011 16:27 GMT

#703

@Tierfight

if the Hellionplayer is a-moving, you MIGHT be right!

BUT if the Hellionplayer is mikroing as well, he´ll move to pointblankrange. Range = 0 No way in Hell, a Marine can run out of that Blue Flame.

Do you know that the flamerange=6?

ToastieNL

Netherlands845 Posts

February 23 2011 16:28 GMT

#704

Hellion attack range is 5; Splash range is 6

ROFL_copter

United States1 Post

February 23 2011 21:03 GMT

#705

@CowWithGun

On a nitpicky note, you should work on the build order: 2nd refinery -> 2 factories -> tech lab on rax

As for the big picture, I think it all went downhill for you when you became passive and switched to thors for some reason. You were doing great and had the game won @ 15:00 when you killed his entire army. All you had to do was attack with a couple hellions and you would have killed all his scvs and the few marines that were popping out. You could have attacked with your 1 thor and won, but you sat back allowed him to rebuild and gain air superiority with more vikings and BC's than you.

On a fundamentals note, you should work on keeping constant scv/depot production. "Probes and Pylons" as Day[9] would say.

CowWithGun

Sweden18 Posts

February 23 2011 21:58 GMT

#706

Thank you for your post. Now I see that I should've produced more hellions to kill him of. I was just surprised by all the missleturrets.

Yeah I usually play better. I picked this replay because I've had some trubble with finnishing them of.

Blazinghand

United States25551 Posts

February 24 2011 00:01 GMT

#707

On February 24 2011 01:27 Tyrannon wrote:
Do you know that the flamerange=6?

On February 24 2011 01:28 ToastieNL wrote:
Hellion attack range is 5; Splash range is 6

The hellion does have slightly more range than it has attack range, but it does not have a total range of 6. It has a total splash range of 5.15. From Liquipedia's (Wiki)

Hellion entry:

Despite being able to activate its weapon within a range of 5, the Hellion will deal AoE damage up to a range of 5.15. The flamethrower's stream is about 0.15 wide.

Still, hellions are fast enough and deal enough damage that they should be able to deal with marines fairly effectively.

GuYuTe-

United States550 Posts

February 24 2011 00:20 GMT

#708

Been playing this style and countering this style in my past like 10 TvTs at @ 3100 diamond level. It's actually quite humorous how many people are doing this build. Sim City is the most crucial element to countering this style imo. I like to sim city with every one of my first 7 or 8 buildings, completely walling off both entrances to behind the minerals and then 1-1-1 into expo behind tank and constant viking production off 2 starports into 3 later game. A lot of people doing this build are pretty predictable where they will fly with their first dropship so you can pick it off sometimes with your first viking or first 2 vikings. I've yet to see it really executed superbly and have won every time against this build, several games where we both did the build and it was just a race to fry scvs/snipe banshee. It's definitely a great build but like iEchoic said it's really hard to execute correctly and hence relatively easy to counter imo.

nyczbrandon

United States124 Posts

February 24 2011 00:44 GMT

#709

i tried this build but lost to someone who went mainly marauders so my preignightered hellions didnt do much

Senorcuidado

United States700 Posts

February 24 2011 02:22 GMT

#710

This definitely takes practice. I just had some troubles on Crevasse against mass mass turrets, I didn't mass expand as much as I should have and my bc transition was a bit late but I still almost had it. It's hard to be Zerg in this matchup

It's totally different from the style of Terran that I'm used to but whenever I lose it never feels like a build order loss, it just feels like I should have done several different things better. It definitely feels like ZvT, you contain them and hurt their economy, beware the death push, expand more and win with air control and attrition or break them with t3 units. Very fun :D

Sar

United States30 Posts

February 24 2011 07:28 GMT

#711

This is such an annoying build since everybody is doing it. It's popular. Congrats iEchoic! :D

Now if only people could do it right and not suicide everything they have into my turrets and tanks. I generally do a two base turtle into a slow tank/rine/viking push whenever I see this coming, because few people ever really deviate from the Helion/Banshee BO and don't really get a good expansion up in time to match production. I'm thinking of just thoring it one of these times to really beat it fast.

Rarely play anybody good enough to pull this build off, which means more wins for me. Really helped me in the TvT department. Diamond, here I come.

EnsisRaizo

25 Posts

February 24 2011 09:01 GMT

#712

Lowbie player here, so my opinion isn't one of much value, but I wanted to thank you for this build. I don't like using siege tanks either and this build has given me the most fun games I have yet to play on the ladder. TvT was by far my least favorite matchup before and is now easily my favorite game to play.

VieuxSinge

France231 Posts

February 25 2011 19:41 GMT

#713

I can't deal with the 3 rax into marauders opening. The push comes at ~8min and i don't have my banshee yet if I buy a medivac first (sometimes I don't even have my starport finished). The helions+preigniter can't kill those marauders. Should I build a bunker and 2 more marines? I don't know how to handle it...

FinestHour

United States18466 Posts

February 25 2011 19:58 GMT

#714

If you scout the 3 rax and one gas, then ofc you should bunker up. Once you hold off the attack you're free to get air control and pretty much easy win from there.

FallDownMarigold

United States3710 Posts

February 25 2011 22:20 GMT

#715

So, to succeed against this build:

Pretend you're playing against a Zerg that is playing muta/ling/bling.

Whitewing

United States7483 Posts

February 26 2011 00:19 GMT

#716

On February 26 2011 07:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:
So, to succeed against this build:

Pretend you're playing against a Zerg that is playing muta/ling/bling.

Basically, but you should also assume that said zerg's mutalisks kill things about 5 times as fast.

lorkac

United States2297 Posts

February 26 2011 00:43 GMT

#717

On February 26 2011 09:19 Whitewing wrote:

Show nested quote +

Basically, but you should also assume that said zerg's mutalisks kill things about 5 times as fast.

the banelings also don't die automatically.

iEchoic

United States1776 Posts

February 26 2011 09:57 GMT

#718

Just wanted to point out that the BC speed buff on PTR is actually a pretty significant buff to the build. Just tried it out and BCs move sooooo much faster. This is going to really help the mobility of the lategame composition and surely sell me on always going BCs lategame if you have air control.

The stim build time nerf is also another significant buff to the build as it slows down marauder or 3rax stim timing pushes.

Overall verdict is that the next patch should strengthen the build significantly.

valheru

Australia966 Posts

February 26 2011 10:29 GMT

#719

^^seconded.
20 seconds is a long time and BC speed went up by about 30% 1.4 to 1.8.

This build is going to be alot stronger next patch in the early and late game.
Grats on the GSL games btw.

orKisT

2 Posts

February 26 2011 17:06 GMT

#720

With all due respect to Mr. Echoic, I submit my own humble thoughts on countering this build as a 2200 Master Terran:

Proxy Banshee Cloak Rush

This is my standard tvt opener. The key to the proxy port is obviously location, and, there are certain spots on the map where you can always get away with a proxy port. I consider it safe enough that I do a proxy every single game. TVT is by far my best matchup.

One detail to my proxy port strategy is that I include a very early tech lab on my factory at my main so that a scan would make it appear as if I am rushing tank, when really, I am rushing banshee with a port very close to his main.

Anyways, I have found that people that go Echoics build do not build Towers. Thus, if you can survive the initial hellion harass, you generally have map control with your banshees until the Raven comes out. During this time, I have been able inflict great damage on my opponents economy.

After the initial two banshees, I throw up more Starports and just start massing Tank-Viking.

To counter the hellions, I have been working on walling off my mineral line and placing a tank in my mineral line.

In any event, I just wanted to say that I win the great majority of my TVTs performing this opening, including against Echoic's new build!

Cloaked banshee FTW, business as usual for humanity.

(first TL post! so be nice!)