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OneGoal: A better SC2 [Project Hub] - Page 39

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Doominator10
Profile Joined August 2012
United States515 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-13 02:57:05
February 12 2013 02:35 GMT
#761
***Not a balance change necessarily***

On September 12 2012 21:22 Ponera wrote:
Queen

By popular demand!!

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading][image loading]
[image loading]

The queen is really a unique Zerg unit, one that shows the new frontiers they are starting with gene incorporation into the swarm itself. Other than that volatile infested terrans and Kerrigan, the most intelligent creatures incorporated into the swarm are the Gargantis proximae which became the Overlord, so this is a rather significant step forward in the intelligence department. The queen seems to set a dangerous precedent of a tiered hierarchy within the hive with specific roles to play.

Anatomically speaking, we see the controversial "hydralisk effect" again, but these seemingly useless jaws have been expanded with a nasty looking set of caniniform teeth. They seem to only move laterally, making them useless for any kind of prey capture. Their function is rather mysterious and in my opinion, useless yet again.

You can clearly see that there is some hominiform (human/protoss) genetics incorporated. The face looks really protoss-like, with two small eyes and that elongation in the lower part of the face where the mouth would be in a human, but isn't. Makes nutrient intake a mystery, perhaps there is a semi permeable membrane somewhere for ingestion. Yes, I know that zerg are supported by creep, but exactly how is rather ambiguous so nutrient intake consideration is important. You can see the brow ridge and up features some armoured plates, to help protect that large brainlike structure the queen has heading out the back of the skull. The spikes on each plate seem like simple design yet again with not form/function. Nobody can say it's vestigial, as this queen is a direct descendant of the brood war queen but with hominiform DNA tossed in. I have no idea what the purpose of the large posterior extension from the head; it surely can't all be brain! I would suggest that perhaps this structure houses hormonal/pherimonal assembly structures, which are then somehow injected into the hive to stimulate larvae production. How this is transferred is a mystery, perhaps there is some kind of semi permeable membrane on the face. No wonder there is protection in the form of armour for this structure. This structure also almost certainly contains the anti-air attack, working like a biological spike thrower. How this works is probably with muscle contractions and this structure likely stores and produces the spikes. How they leave the head is a mystery as I don't see any openings.

Hanging off the posterior head are a few interesting aspects. Firstly we can see structures that look similar to Kerrigans zerg dreadlocks. Looks kerratinous to me, which suggests mammalian origins, or at least vertebrate. Probably from the human. Doesn't seem to have purpose, but it is a clue into the origins of the modern queen. The armoured plates on the head expand laterally, making a shield-like structure to protect the claws below, as well as the abdomen.

Continuing on with the hominiform appearance, there is a graceful neck heading down from that large posterior head. The femininity continues with a female-like pectoral girdle (the collarbone area isn't very broad, nor are the shoulders.) Coming off from the shoulders are unnecessary spike things. This would add a weight burden to the slender upper arm and would perhaps hinder the 2 fingered hand from tending to larvae and creep. The fingers are like little pincers but they move more like fingers. So what these do is a little bit baffling, as there is no ability to grasp. Perhaps they are used for scooping larvae and eggs. They are really delicate and remind me of the fingers from the aye-aye.


Just in case you got tired and want to skip to the point. There's more!

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

The long, skinny finger of the aye-aye is used to tap trees and find hollows where larvae can be found. Perhaps there is a similar purpose for the queens long fingers, tapping eggs to check for viability/readiness to get a sense of when things will hatch? Would be a useful tool to have in order to manage larvae and egg production.

Coming from the shoulder girdle is a wicked set of claws used in close combat attacking. These claws really don't seem that effective to me, as their location is awkward and their form is rather fragile with several mechanical weak spots, like the peak at the top. One half decent shot from a marine would end this claws usefulness. Since marines are decidedly more accurate that stormtroopers, this would potentially be an issue with queens seeing their close combat spayed mid-battle. Not sure how the musculature would work here, again we see the design of this creature trying to do too much with a single limb girdle. While the location is actually lower on the back for the attachment, it would absolutely affect the shoulder girdle as that is likely the platform that supports the upper muscles for the claws.

See for yourself: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/queen

The hominid pelvis has been completely re-purposed in this case and is apparently the platform for the frontal claws to attach to. These are likely powered by some very tensile and thick tendons which allow for them to smack a marine vertically, piercing their suit and ruining their day.

The queens lower body is clearly a manufacturing facility for creep tumors, which exit from her celebrated anal sphincter. The zerg really do love to use spinctors and support them with clawlike structures. Unarmoured and expansive, this re-purposed gut allows the queen to function further in he defensive support role. This is good, because the queen can't walk for shit off the creep. How the creep speeds up her locomotion is really a mystery to me. She has six insect-like limbs that end as a spike. They are joined together by some sort of membrane which likely limits the stride length of the queen. Perhaps they had issues with the likely intelligent (and perhaps independently minded) queens exploring and moving off from their duties, so needed to find a way to keep them on the creep. Silly rebellious queens, filled with angst.

I am not sure how the transfuse ability would work. Don't even get me started on how lame the animation is for it. Perhaps she somehow transmits creep to the zerg/building in question?

Overall, I really don't like the queens design. I find more flaw with it than I do with many others, as it really seems to be trying to do too much. I know it's getting a change in HotS (at least it might be, it's not present in the beta.)

Perhaps your genius minds can help explain some of the mysteries of the queen!


And:

+ Show Spoiler +


Basically this guy is saying there is a bit of a biological issue with the way the queen is designed. Without going into the really nitty gritty biology of what he is saying, I think it sufficient to suggest that the creep tumor be replaced with the,

"Creep Grub."

+ Show Spoiler +
Modeled as several darker and smaller larva that are technically "burrowed" like creep tumors.


This tiny little organism is a creep-generating worker sub-species spawned by queens. Creep grubs function similarly to creep tumors, but instead of just auto-spawning creep wherever they are placed, they have an ability called breeding mitosis (better name will come soon hopefully.). Then, while active, it remains stationary and generates a field of creep around it. The area generated per grub is larger, and spreads slightly faster than normal creep tumors. When it reaches it's max area of creep generated, the mitosis is complete and it will leave behind a permanent breeding ground or grub nest or whatever you want to call it. The nest will maintain that field of creep until destroyed. The grub is then free to roam the creep to a new location (at a speed slower than a queen) and start planting a new nest.

Grubs travel off of creep but extremely slowly (As slow as a pre-patch overlord??). They can only generate creep, while ON creep.
Grub Nests are really nothing more than dormant tumors. They keep creep, not generate more.
They can be placed on ramps, thank you HotS :D
Grubs are also tougher to kill than tumors, but not as tough as normal larva, and they can run away (think speed of wol hydra off creep? maybe?)
The nests are much more flimsy though... like a normal tumor. (Hint hint for the modeling.)

If the mitosis is paused or the grub is destroyed, the creep that was generating recedes at an accelerated rate than was being generated.

Gameplay wise spreading creep is really nothing more than a mechanical skill, and only 1 player I know of actually expresses his aptitude for it (If you have not seen TLO spread creep....omg what a try hard.) Having the creep generators as precious life forms to be cared instead of just a alarm bell and speed buff aura will hopefully allow for more interesting things to be done with creep spreading, as well as adding more interest for spectators. (That meanie Terran just burned up all the peaceful grubs >:O Send the soldier bugs!)
No more simply boxing all your tumors or cntr click spam, you must be meticulous about where your grubs are going. Losing grubs would be much more painful than losing a tumor since grubs are MOBILE (slightly...)

Design wise it fits for a unit called "Queen" to be a spawner / nurturer. The tumor makes it sound more like a parasite generator, and I don't think it is as appropriate. Queen bees and ants spawn grubs right? Making sense? Since the queens are often body blockers (which I still don't like. Refer to previous post on queens), it would seem natural for them to be guarding their grubs nearer to the front line :D. To be continued...

EDIT: Just to make it even more challenging, Creep generation does not stack with other grubs >.
Your DOOM has arrived,,,, and is handing out cookies
ItWhoSpeaks
Profile Joined September 2010
United States362 Posts
February 12 2013 02:57 GMT
#762
Fixed and expanded.
Reflection and Respect.
ItWhoSpeaks
Profile Joined September 2010
United States362 Posts
February 12 2013 03:16 GMT
#763
Woah, interesting! This might just do the trick.
Reflection and Respect.
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
February 13 2013 00:06 GMT
#764
ill be on for a bit lets goooo
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
February 13 2013 14:32 GMT
#765
I recently watched this SC2BW match and the thing that most struck me was how long the fights continued for, seemingly minutes at a time, which is super cool and gives a lot of direct player interaction and opportunity for skill expression. So it made me curious as to whether you guys see it as within the scope of the Onegoal project to elongate battles between players to allow for better micro/opportunities for in-battle decision making, as opposed to the 15 second long battles we currently have in SC2 where pre-battle positioning is the primary skill. Will the tweaks to units help bring this about? Perhaps when the macro is given some attention the streaming of units across the map will lengthen battles? Or perhaps accomplishing this would take an across the board damage nerf/health buff to all units.. and if so would that take the mod too far away from anything blizzard would ever consider?
I am terrible at this game!
topsecret221
Profile Joined September 2012
United States108 Posts
February 13 2013 20:42 GMT
#766
From what we've seen, a lot of battles already last much, much longer. Still not quite to the scale of BW yet, but we're slowly getting there

I just watched a PvP yesterday. One composition was Phoenix/Immortal/Carrier, the other a Stalker/Zealot/Tempest + a mothership core. The game itself was pushing 40 minutes, and the battles all lasted an average of a minute or so. I then played a TvZ where he went Marine/Medivac/Tank with a couple of Battlecruisers thrown in, and I went ling/hydra/viper... at the big midgame collision, the battle lasted for a consistent minute or so... I managed to get in several waves of hydra production before I had to pull back (I then over-committed, lost my army, didn't get ample AA, and lost said game). Anyways, we have managed to see a substantial increase in the length of battles.
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
February 14 2013 01:58 GMT
#767
Well I'm glad to hear it! If nothing else I guess with lowering the supply of hydras/tanks and making a bulky unit such as immortal more prevalent .. there's just more stuff there to kill, so naturally it takes longer :D
I am terrible at this game!
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-14 04:00:57
February 14 2013 04:00 GMT
#768
Good news! Ranking system is officially launched.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17788857

I told him I'd let the other modding communities about his work. Please get in contact with him if you are interested or you can just let me know or something. The process is really seamless. There are limitations like what he is willing to do (currently, at least), but overall it's great. We're using ELO ratings where every ranked game counts.
Let him/me know!
T P Z sagi
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
February 14 2013 04:03 GMT
#769
On February 14 2013 13:00 purakushi wrote:
Good news! Ranking system is officially launched.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17788857

I told him I'd let the other modding communities about his work. Please get in contact with him if you are interested or you can just let me know or something. The process is really seamless. There are limitations like what he is willing to do (currently, at least), but overall it's great. We're using ELO ratings where every ranked game counts.
Let him/me know!

Sounds cool
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
ItWhoSpeaks
Profile Joined September 2010
United States362 Posts
February 14 2013 08:34 GMT
#770
Wow that is really neat! When the mod is in better shape we will look into it! Thanks so much for the heads up!
Reflection and Respect.
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-14 14:10:12
February 14 2013 12:29 GMT
#771
Yay that's awesome! I really feel like that kind of thing will really help build a community around the mod :D Speaking of which it occurred to me recently that the ability to play on multiple servers in HotS could also really help with this as, lag permitting, it could allow smaller communities to all congregate on one server and thus hopefully achieve a sustainable critical mass.
I am terrible at this game!
lunkfumble
Profile Joined October 2012
Brazil3 Posts
February 15 2013 23:06 GMT
#772

Have you guys thought about this? I personally think it's a good idea
gCgCrypto
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany297 Posts
February 16 2013 00:05 GMT
#773
On February 16 2013 08:06 lunkfumble wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgkCx-1VUtU
Have you guys thought about this? I personally think it's a good idea


Right when i finally started to get some motivation to play hots you made me realize how mutch better SC2 could be if the devs knew what they are doing.
Thanks -.- now i´m all frustrated with SC2 again.

But yeah that movement really looks way way better!
L E E J A E D O N G ! <3
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
February 16 2013 00:23 GMT
#774
On February 16 2013 09:05 gCgCrypto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2013 08:06 lunkfumble wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgkCx-1VUtU
Have you guys thought about this? I personally think it's a good idea


Right when i finally started to get some motivation to play hots you made me realize how mutch better SC2 could be if the devs knew what they are doing.
Thanks -.- now i´m all frustrated with SC2 again.

But yeah that movement really looks way way better!


You'd think so but Browder has mentioned that video specifically and said they tried out a test build using those settings internally and it basically did nothing. According to him the main problem is that when people are actually moving their army about they tend to click fairly close to their army so it all bunches up anyway. Not to mention that video shows the settings on a completely empty map whereas in actual play the pathing around terrain features would also cause the army to bunch up more.
I am terrible at this game!
MNdakota
Profile Joined March 2012
United States512 Posts
February 16 2013 01:26 GMT
#775
I don't agree with modified unit movement. If you want to split your units, then do it manually. Browder said this and I agree completely.
You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
February 16 2013 02:26 GMT
#776
On February 16 2013 10:26 MNdakota wrote:
I don't agree with modified unit movement. If you want to split your units, then do it manually. Browder said this and I agree completely.
Well, I used to be against this as well but I gave it some thought and I felt that basically increasing the colission radius of units as well as buffing AoE radii in tandem is a good move. Simply because it makes battles take up more of the screen. That's all. Large battles just look cooler. Units being spaced apart more also presents a finer degree of control and more accurate clicking, though that might remove skill ceiling.It doesn't take polt or Jakji any more then to focus down the 4 banelings in a pack of Zerglings as they are approaching.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
February 16 2013 21:26 GMT
#777
Are there any changes to the hellbat in Onegoal? I couldn't see any reference to it in the patch notes etc. If not any plans to tinker with it?

I really love how Onegoal has softened up a lot of the counter relationships in the game but to my mind the hellbat is the hardest of hard counters to lings that the game has seen thus far. This strikes me as a real shame as the WoL interaction between hellions/lings was really well conceived.. where ostensibly hellions "counter" lings but it was micro dependant and given a good surround on creep lings didn't trade too inefficiently even against blue flame. However hellbats, due to a mix of their damage/health/aoe cone.. make lings totally worthless irrespective of micro from either side.

I don't have any good idea what could be done about this, given that the hellbat (at least as far as I understand it) was added to deal with zealots in mech compositions TvP... and anything with aoe that trades well with zealots is kinda inevitably going to totally destroy lings. The only thing I can think of to ameliorate this is to decrease hellbat damage significantly and have a plus damage to shields element as they've done with the widow mine.. but it just seems like an inelegant solution when you start plugging in unintuitive modifiers everywhere. Anyone else got any nice ideas to fix this relationship short of just removing the hellbat/nerfing it to oblivion?

PS It's just occurred to me that having hydras at tier 1.5 will obviously lessen any issue with the hellbat/ling relationship... but I still think it's too hard of a counter and would be worth putting some thought into.
I am terrible at this game!
sKlapptNet
Profile Joined May 2012
Germany16 Posts
February 17 2013 11:14 GMT
#778
This is by far the greatest Thing i've ever read on Teamliquid.

You've done a great job! this has to go to Blizzard. they just need to notice that has to be done with the game.

I wish you good luck with this movement and hopefully they will use this for a better Starcraft 2

MfG: sKlapptNet aka Mushroom
Terran Mid-High Master streaming, http://www.own3d.tv/sKlapptNet/live/301109
ItWhoSpeaks
Profile Joined September 2010
United States362 Posts
February 17 2013 14:44 GMT
#779
Spaceboy: The hellbat is no longer biological and has 120 HP instead of 135. This has proven to be significant in Ling, Hellbat relationships. That said, there is a very real trade off between Hellbats and Hellions given the existence of AoE locusts and Hydras. We are keeping an eye on the Hellbat.
Reflection and Respect.
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
February 17 2013 14:55 GMT
#780
On February 17 2013 23:44 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Spaceboy: The hellbat is no longer biological and has 120 HP instead of 135. This has proven to be significant in Ling, Hellbat relationships. That said, there is a very real trade off between Hellbats and Hellions given the existence of AoE locusts and Hydras. We are keeping an eye on the Hellbat.


Rightio, thanks very much for the reply! That sounds pretty reasonable, I hope it proves to be enough long term.
I am terrible at this game!
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