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Voyboy taking all the limelight, no opportunity for Westrice
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On December 16 2012 17:40 MooMooMugi wrote:Voyboy taking all the limelight, no opportunity for Westrice 
I wonder if Westrice would make a better support than Elementz.
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On December 16 2012 07:34 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:31 Seuss wrote:On December 16 2012 04:35 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:32 Seuss wrote:On December 16 2012 03:21 obesechicken13 wrote:I think DFG's actually a lot weaker now. It was way stronger before when it did 30+% health (or flat base) in damage. Now it has a longer range, worse build path, less base damage, no scaling off AP, costs more, provides less gold in stats, and has damage amplification. I don't think it's possible for the new DFG to provide more burst. Even assuming you 100-0 someone using the damage multiplication, the old DFG would have let you do the same thing since the bonus 20% damage can only apply on 85+% of your opponent's remaining life. + Show Spoiler [Spoilered for brevity.] +Even after the range got buffed on DFG, I find that I still get within 600 range before I fire off DFG just so I can get my other skills and ignite off. So DFG got nerfed in every meaningful way.
Now DFG is in a spot where it's not worthy of a first buy, and isn't vital on every AP. I'm definitely not going to build it as much. I tried getting chalice on Veigar yesterday with mana regen runes, and I found that pre level 9 I had enough mana to constantly spam Q. Veigar's Q doesn't cost very much, or have a shorter cooldown until higher levels. I think I'll be going for chalice first in the future. The only problem is that Veigar can't push lanes so against anyone with a waveclear, I'd have been helpless to stop roaming. It's just an example, where, if I see my lane opponent is an Annie and also can't push, I'd consider picking Veigar, and not build DFG first. Veigar's Q passive gives too much free stats.
I think since for months deathcap was the goto first item on every AP, and most people even argued to go deathcap before DFG on Veigar in the Veigar thread, that there's a lot that this community doesn't know. Deathcap never got nerfed. But DFG and abyssal did.
Also it's really cool how a lot of items are no longer cost efficient in stats but provide a good active. DFG GA Mogs and shard of true ice being examples. I think this DoTA style is way better than just selling stats since it means that players have more chance of coming back if they use their items well. Actually, the new DFG outperforms the old one in all but the ideal scenario for old DFG. + Show Spoiler [Math and Words] +Old DFG there were essentially only two variables which affected its raw damage, the opponent's current health and your AP. If you assume you always use it on a full health target then it's pretty easy to assess its damage potential.
Enemy Maximum Health * (15% + 5%/100 AP * Your AP) = Raw Damage
New DFG is slightly more complicated because its effectiveness is based on the base damage and AP ratios of all magic damage abilities and items you can cram into the four second amplification period, in addition to the target's maximum health.
Enemy Maximum Health * 15% + (Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = Raw Damage
However, we can simplify the comparison because both items share Enemy Maximum Health * 15%. The equations to solve are therefore:
Enemy Maximum Health * 5%/100 AP * Your AP = Old DFG (Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = New DFG
Now we're obviously going to have to make a lot of assumptions here as we have a lot of unknown variables. For the sake of this argument let's assume a 3000 Health target and 400 AP (a number which came up earlier in the thread). That leaves Base Damage and Ratios to be determined. There are going to vary wildly from champion to champion, so it's hard to know exactly what to put there. However, in general the total damage potential of a single AP carry's rotation is around 3.0. Thus we can solve for the necessary base damage to match old DFG.
3000 * 5%/100 AP * 400 AP = (Base Damage + 400 AP * 3.0) * 20% 3000 * 20% = (Base Damage + 1200) * 20% 3000 = Base Damage + 1200 1800 = Base Damage
So against a tank that's actually a lot of base damage. Some AP carries have that much base damage (e.g. Syndra, Veigar, LeBlanc) but not all.
However, we've intentionally ignored some differences between the two iterations of DFG. For one, how often did carries use old DFG on tanks at full health? Generally such a use would be wasteful as the tanks were rarely the critical target that needed to be burst down. Second, old DFG was a part of Season 2, where Magic Resistance was more plentiful and Force of Nature existed. The environment surrounding new DFG is different and plays to its favor. Finally, new DFG amplifying any incidental or focused damage on a target, which can amount to a significant amount depending on team composition.
The post of new DFG is blatantly obvious when you look past a scenario where you attempt to solo burst a tank at full health. Targeting a squishy, a tank or bruiser whose already taken damage, or working alongside an ally with magic damage will all thrust new DFG way ahead. A Leona without any AP brings enough magic damage to account for almost all of that seemingly difficult to reach 1800 Base Damage value by herself. Even an enemy carry with 2000 Health only requires 800 Base Damage for new DFG to match the old, a number pretty much every respectable AP carry easily surpasses by themselves. It only becomes easier if your champion makes use of items such as Gunblade or Lich Bane. In short, the only situation where new DFG is worse than old DFG is this really weird case where you want to solo burst down an enemy tank who is at full health. In every other situation new DFG is equal or better than old DFG, and is blatantly better for assassination. I was talking about the old old DFG that provided 30% of an enemy's current health in damage with no AP. Even then the only case that really outshines the new DFG by any significant margin is attacking a tank at full health. The difference between what I calculated and what you're talking about is 9% Maximum Health, or 270 damage. That's significant, but it's not so much so that it overturns any of the points I made. + Show Spoiler [Spoilered for Length] +Some problems I have with your analysis: Considering how most games are short enough that IE appears in only 10% of games on lolking I'd say 400 ap is too high. It's also weird to do analysis at level 18 when most solo queue games are decided well before then. Some AP carries have that much base damage (e.g. Syndra, Veigar, LeBlanc) but not all Neither Leblanc nor Veigar has such high base damage. 1080 Veigar 1097 Leblanc I don't care about Syndra A Leona without any AP brings enough magic damage to account for almost all of that seemingly difficult to reach 1800 Base Damage value by herself. No she doesn't. Even if you assume she gets all 4 procs of her passive off from an ally she reaches 1550 damage. And that's a bit too optimistic. You can't really assume that every champion gets all their abilities off. Often Veigar and leblanc can only land Q and R. You left out the 30% max health vs 15% current health completely from your analysis. You left out stat efficiency completely from your analysis. You're paying 500 more gold for the passive on the new DFG. I might have made a mistake here in my analysis. Please review. If we assume 100,400 ap, and that the target squishy has 42 mr, and you have sorc boots and magic pen reds(8 magic pen) then the target has 14mr remaining. An "effective magic health" of 1.14*2000. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LUpAa.png) Things do sway more in the new DFG's favor if you do land more skills though. Also It is closer than I originally thought. I only used Veigar's Q and R abilities though I really should have also included ignite at the very least. I need to get laid.
To defend my analysis point by point:- The 400 AP number came from another poster who liked Season 2 DFG. In that light, examining numbers at level 18 made sense. It didn't have to be 400 AP, though it made the calculations a little easier, but I don't think you'll find comparisons at other stages of the game to be any more favorable for older versions of DFG.
- You're correct that I overestimated the base damage values on Veigar and LeBlanc, though your numbers seem to undershoot their full potential.
- 1550 is 86.1% of 1800, which I think is fair to describe as "almost all". It's an ideal case, but one made to illustrate a point about how quickly incidental damage can accumulate to new DFG's benefit.
- The 30% versus 15% is entirely accounted for in my analysis. If you assume your target is at their maximum health both Season 2 and Season 3 DFG start at 15%, so that specific value cancels out of the equations. Season 1 DFG starts at 30% but only scales at 3.5% per 100 AP, so at the values I was comparing it only did 9% more damage (a fact I stated). In any case, it was all accounted for.
- I obviously didn't bring cost efficiency into it, but with good reason. The environment in which new DFG exists is fundamentally different from that which any of the previous iterations did. Penetration mechanics, the amount of MR you can feasibly build, and item-based magic damage sources have all changed. As a result there is very limited value in direct cost-efficiency comparisons. It's much like this optical illusion, you have to go to a heck of a lot of effort to explain and account for context before you can compare them meaningfully.
It was not a perfect analysis, and that's not surprising considering I threw it together in approximately five minutes before rushing out the door to see the Hobbit. However, the core argument remains sound, new DFG is not substantially worse in the best cases for its predecessors, while matching and or surpassing them in a majority of other circumstances.
I actually expect this iteration of DFG to be nerfed, because like the older versions you long for it is fairly overpowered, just in a slightly different way.
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On December 16 2012 17:36 MooMooMugi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 17:32 Gahlo wrote:On December 16 2012 17:21 Sufficiency wrote: TSM.evo's problem was team synergy. I believe in regionals they could win all lanes against (?) curse, but faltered at teamfights. I seem to be remembering it as they were all really into being on the team when it started, but due to the age of some people having to deal with highschool they couldn't get try hard enough in preparation before Aphromoo got bored and left. WoDx only joined because Aphromoo was there so after their S2 run was over he left. Then, with the 1 team/region rule for S3, there was nowhere to go from there. Also they never ever ever practiced Yeah, that's what I meant by the preparation part. Tired me does not vocalize well. ><
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On December 16 2012 17:53 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 17:40 MooMooMugi wrote:Voyboy taking all the limelight, no opportunity for Westrice  I wonder if Westrice would make a better support than Elementz. Westrice did play support for a little when Elementz was in Canada for vacation for something, did okay and about the same level of play as Elementz did
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On December 16 2012 17:28 sob3k wrote: Wow, I decided to just play elise because she seemed so strong.
She is so good. My last like 15 games have been like 6-1, 9-3, 11-2, 7-1, I am just destroying.
Her jungle is SO STRONG! I actually think she is one of the fastest junglers in the game. She can take a buff in about 3 seconds. The AP spirit stone item is bonkers on her.
She can also 1v1 anyone and her ganks are absurd because she can gap close or dive from fucking 1075 range.
She DEFINITELY has a pretty severe learning curve, but as i play her more I am just doing better and better, I've made some obscene plays on her.
She's just got everything: really nice long poke, absurd burst damage and executions, longest gap closer in the game, a long range stun, AND sustained damage+AOE for clearing. Plus she has 3 different was to get vision: explosive spiderling, her stun, and her rappel.
Biggest mistake I see people is to level W over Q for jungling, it is NOT worth the damage and burst you lose, she clears excellently with it maxed second. I've tried it both ways and she is SO much stronger with Q>W. Correct usage of the execution in spider form makes for ultra fast camp clearing and is MASSIVELY better in ganks than W. The amount of damage you can do with a spider form Q is hilarious when you prioritize the skill.
i love elise, she's in my top three fav champs, but i only really play her top
do you just open machete and go WQWE then R>Q>W>E ?
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On December 16 2012 17:40 MooMooMugi wrote:Voyboy taking all the limelight, no opportunity for Westrice  Meh, I'm not impressed with voyboys play on Curse, sure it was a step up from CLG, and Crs became better for it, but his level of play is still pretty meh. (though it looks like he's adapting to 1v2 lane situations really well).
it's just sort of a shame that akali wasn't stronger, otherwise westrice would be starter, npnp.
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Alright, just throwing my hat into DFG debate with the one champion I build DFG on: 2x games on TF, where I went 2x dorans -> sorcs ->DFG and 1x dorans -> DFG -> Sorcs
Game 1:DFG finished at 18:00
Stats:
Level 13 172 AP Level 5 Q/W 260+45+(+89)(+181) Level 1 E 55(+69) Total: 699 magic damage
Game 2:
DFG finished at 14:20
Stats: 154 AP Level 11 Level 5 Q 260(+100) Level 3 W 30 (+83) (+62) Level 1 E 55 +(62)
Total: 652 magic damage
Typical usage scenario: Engage/get engaged on, DFG-> gold -> wild cards -> E proc within the 4 second window Base skill damage for level 11 TF is pretty fixed from 9-13, I'll use 675. The average bottom laner has ~1.2k health, solos have 1.5-1.8k at this point in the game. DFG will do 180-270 magic damage, depending on the target, the additional magic damage from skills is amplified to ~810 damage. DFG alone does 315-405 damage. It's worth up to 280 AP worth of damage on TF, something that cannot be acquired that early in the game reasonably.
On the other hand, pre-patch DFG (80 AP, 15% CDR OP as balls patch) would do 560 damage to a 1.8k health target, 370 to a 1.2k target.
I'm not taking into account MR since it doesn't affect the calculation but overall it's weaker than the previous iterations, at least on TF. It's still far stronger than a deathcap against a single target and CDR is worth a lot on most APs. Build as you like but I'm going to continue to build DFG first on roam heavy mid laners.
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United States47024 Posts
It's categorically weaker for solo kills. That was the intention. It's also meant to be stronger when your team has secondary sources of magic damage.
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On December 16 2012 18:19 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 17:28 sob3k wrote: Wow, I decided to just play elise because she seemed so strong.
She is so good. My last like 15 games have been like 6-1, 9-3, 11-2, 7-1, I am just destroying.
Her jungle is SO STRONG! I actually think she is one of the fastest junglers in the game. She can take a buff in about 3 seconds. The AP spirit stone item is bonkers on her.
She can also 1v1 anyone and her ganks are absurd because she can gap close or dive from fucking 1075 range.
She DEFINITELY has a pretty severe learning curve, but as i play her more I am just doing better and better, I've made some obscene plays on her.
She's just got everything: really nice long poke, absurd burst damage and executions, longest gap closer in the game, a long range stun, AND sustained damage+AOE for clearing. Plus she has 3 different was to get vision: explosive spiderling, her stun, and her rappel.
Biggest mistake I see people is to level W over Q for jungling, it is NOT worth the damage and burst you lose, she clears excellently with it maxed second. I've tried it both ways and she is SO much stronger with Q>W. Correct usage of the execution in spider form makes for ultra fast camp clearing and is MASSIVELY better in ganks than W. The amount of damage you can do with a spider form Q is hilarious when you prioritize the skill. i love elise, she's in my top three fav champs, but i only really play her top do you just open machete and go WQWE then R>Q>W>E ?
Machete, WQQE, no joke, it's not worth it to sacrifice the burst power of Q for clear speed IMO. Her clear is already plenty fast enough to run out of jungle and you wont get to use W barely at all in ganks, probably only get 2-3 hits in as they are running because you won't have any way to stick on them and you may not even have boots at this point. The ability to also just rappel in on someone weak and know you can just execute them is a huge difference. The AP Spirit stone recipe is the way to go also, much stronger than wriggles.
A thing I also just realized that made my ganks far stronger is after you combo someone and they are running or dash/flash away after your spider Q (which is about when your stun wears off), to not pop Rappel immediately and dive them. Instead just follow them while waiting for your Q CD and keeping them within rappel range, then the second Q is almost up you can Rappel in and QRQW them for an easy kill and not worry about chasing them around under tower trying to get hits in. Much safer and better.
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yeah that's a good point about waiting for the Q, i need to remember to do that when i'm playing top spider as well
i always forget to shift back into human and Q for the kill when they're at a sliver and kiting me past their tower
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On December 16 2012 18:19 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 17:28 sob3k wrote: Wow, I decided to just play elise because she seemed so strong.
She is so good. My last like 15 games have been like 6-1, 9-3, 11-2, 7-1, I am just destroying.
Her jungle is SO STRONG! I actually think she is one of the fastest junglers in the game. She can take a buff in about 3 seconds. The AP spirit stone item is bonkers on her.
She can also 1v1 anyone and her ganks are absurd because she can gap close or dive from fucking 1075 range.
She DEFINITELY has a pretty severe learning curve, but as i play her more I am just doing better and better, I've made some obscene plays on her.
She's just got everything: really nice long poke, absurd burst damage and executions, longest gap closer in the game, a long range stun, AND sustained damage+AOE for clearing. Plus she has 3 different was to get vision: explosive spiderling, her stun, and her rappel.
Biggest mistake I see people is to level W over Q for jungling, it is NOT worth the damage and burst you lose, she clears excellently with it maxed second. I've tried it both ways and she is SO much stronger with Q>W. Correct usage of the execution in spider form makes for ultra fast camp clearing and is MASSIVELY better in ganks than W. The amount of damage you can do with a spider form Q is hilarious when you prioritize the skill. i love elise, she's in my top three fav champs, but i only really play her top do you just open machete and go WQWE then R>Q>W>E ?
What runes/masteries. Machete is almost overkill for her jungle she's so fast.
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Just intrigued me, some mathcrafting on DFG
If you have decent AP ratios, say 2.5, with 1.5 of that being available 8 seconds later. 175 AP with DFG, 245 with dcap, 70 AP difference. You do 175 with your initial combo, 280 more over the next 10 seconds in pure damage. At this point you're just barely breaking even with a dfg against a very low health single target.
If 2 skills are AoE and hit 2 targets each with an AP ratio of 1.5, you do ~500 damage , 220 of which is on someone other than your main target. This damage also hits later than the secondary wave of skills due to the 15% cdr difference.
I'd argue that DFG rushing is again, far better than dcap rushing on any AP that currently has a dcap first mentality.
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On December 16 2012 18:58 Phunkapotamus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 18:19 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On December 16 2012 17:28 sob3k wrote: Wow, I decided to just play elise because she seemed so strong.
She is so good. My last like 15 games have been like 6-1, 9-3, 11-2, 7-1, I am just destroying.
Her jungle is SO STRONG! I actually think she is one of the fastest junglers in the game. She can take a buff in about 3 seconds. The AP spirit stone item is bonkers on her.
She can also 1v1 anyone and her ganks are absurd because she can gap close or dive from fucking 1075 range.
She DEFINITELY has a pretty severe learning curve, but as i play her more I am just doing better and better, I've made some obscene plays on her.
She's just got everything: really nice long poke, absurd burst damage and executions, longest gap closer in the game, a long range stun, AND sustained damage+AOE for clearing. Plus she has 3 different was to get vision: explosive spiderling, her stun, and her rappel.
Biggest mistake I see people is to level W over Q for jungling, it is NOT worth the damage and burst you lose, she clears excellently with it maxed second. I've tried it both ways and she is SO much stronger with Q>W. Correct usage of the execution in spider form makes for ultra fast camp clearing and is MASSIVELY better in ganks than W. The amount of damage you can do with a spider form Q is hilarious when you prioritize the skill. i love elise, she's in my top three fav champs, but i only really play her top do you just open machete and go WQWE then R>Q>W>E ? What runes/masteries. Machete is almost overkill for her jungle she's so fast.
idk what i would use jungle, top i use mpen red/quint, mr blue, armor yellow but in jungle...spen red armor yellow, scaling ap blue flat ap quint? masteries 9-21-0 with spen in offense and the usual jungle shit in defense
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On December 16 2012 17:53 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 17:40 MooMooMugi wrote:Voyboy taking all the limelight, no opportunity for Westrice  I wonder if Westrice would make a better support than Elementz.
Played against him and Cop in solo queue, he was pretty terrible at it but maybe that was just a bad game.
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I guess it could be real.
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On December 16 2012 18:58 Phunkapotamus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 18:19 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On December 16 2012 17:28 sob3k wrote: Wow, I decided to just play elise because she seemed so strong.
She is so good. My last like 15 games have been like 6-1, 9-3, 11-2, 7-1, I am just destroying.
Her jungle is SO STRONG! I actually think she is one of the fastest junglers in the game. She can take a buff in about 3 seconds. The AP spirit stone item is bonkers on her.
She can also 1v1 anyone and her ganks are absurd because she can gap close or dive from fucking 1075 range.
She DEFINITELY has a pretty severe learning curve, but as i play her more I am just doing better and better, I've made some obscene plays on her.
She's just got everything: really nice long poke, absurd burst damage and executions, longest gap closer in the game, a long range stun, AND sustained damage+AOE for clearing. Plus she has 3 different was to get vision: explosive spiderling, her stun, and her rappel.
Biggest mistake I see people is to level W over Q for jungling, it is NOT worth the damage and burst you lose, she clears excellently with it maxed second. I've tried it both ways and she is SO much stronger with Q>W. Correct usage of the execution in spider form makes for ultra fast camp clearing and is MASSIVELY better in ganks than W. The amount of damage you can do with a spider form Q is hilarious when you prioritize the skill. i love elise, she's in my top three fav champs, but i only really play her top do you just open machete and go WQWE then R>Q>W>E ? What runes/masteries. Machete is almost overkill for her jungle she's so fast.
This is what I run on Jungle elise, went for the bladed armor just for the first clear or two to speed things as after that you just tear through and nothing really matters
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CDX2A.png)
For runes I run Mpen red, Armor yellow, MR Blue, Ap quints.
She has been very smooth in the jungle for me with this setup.
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Fucking LeakBelter. Just throwing that info around.
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