EPT[A] Starbow - Page 318
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
- Arbiter dmg 12 instead of 20. Damn. I didn't see what this was for (will go back to check earlier pages) but I guess it must have been too strong for fast Arbiter pushes, unless you have reduced the cost of Arbiters so that they were basically like an army unit with the damage and cost.  Does anyone have any VODs/replays of fast arbiter play? I would love to have seen that with 20 damage. ;P - Reactor build time 40 sec instead of 25. Yeah, I think 40 is the right build time for reactors, personally. Maybe tech labs too. *Shrug* They're at 25 right now, right? - Irradiate does not stack damage. So 4 Irradiated units near each other will not die faster.. (No other change to it atm.) Probably fair seeing as storm (and SC2 Fungal Growth) don't stack. I personally think it has to have a casting range of at least 5 but probably 6, seeing as hydras can get to be faster than Science Vessels, not to mentioned scourge, mutalisks, queens and spores can all help to fend them off with their speed or range. - Breed is now a starting spell for the Viper. Abduct requires research. *Cries* Personally I'd rather Ensnare if you have to change it from Abduct. Then, if Breed can be good, make it so that you have to research that route in order to be able to get that free harassment but then there's more reason to make it good, too. On Spider mines, I definitely think you need to be able to attack them once they've unburrowed and start chasing units, as in BW. That made for fun goon dancing and use of zealots to reveal them while the goons were in range but out of splash damage receiving range, while having to watch out for vultures trying to place more mines behind them or terran units behind the mines getting free hits while your protoss forces engaged the mines. The dynamic was fun. If you want a solution, I really think we should be looking at one that involves them being able to be destroyed (even manually targeted), that also tries to discourage the death-ball style. Personally, I'd like to not have to target them if there are no other enemy units in range and they've already started chasing, I feel like asking that is a little too much, but the fix you've just put up is certainly good to go with until a better solution arrives (if it does). At least you can still suicide small units to clear mines you can't see though, so that it's not like the only way to deal with unseen mines is to focus fire them before they blow up your expensive units. Also, it may be due to missing the particular pages discussing it but I don't understand: Or rather, the ATTACK of the Spider mine can be attacked. On a completely different note, Ensnare (on the Viper) still reveals cloaked units, like in Brood War, right? P.S. I've said it before, numerous times and I shall say it again. Banshees should have more than 4 range. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Works for me. That was one of the first few ways I tried building spider mines, but we ended up with more BW esque mines instead. Perhaps these will end up fitting SBOW better. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
If someone steps into them, they should do a lot of damage If someone is prepared, they should be easy to get cleaned up --> the situation right now is pretty good If you feel like it is too hard for new players to be prepared for mines, you could slightly increase the visibility of them while burrowed. @breed: I get what you want to achieve with this spell and having this as starting spell (--> zerg players should be able to harass with something that isn't a mutalisk). But I'm not really sure if this is the right thing to do. Generally, I don't like it that the Viper has 4 spells (even if one is consumption). It doesn't feel clean. I'd prefer a more standard solution with 2+1spells and a passive research: abduct ensnare consume (or whatever it's real name is) - as research and then give it another research along the lines of a passive buff. E.g. (just an example how this could work; I'm sure there are other solutions out there as well) *funky name* Friendly units affected by a Viper spell heal 50 life at the end of it's duration. Enemy units affected by a Viper spell are stunned for 0.5seconds and take 10 damage at the end of it's duration. --> emergency abducting friendly units would become more powerful (and maybe useful) --> abducting enemy units would be slightly more potent (extra damage, short stun) --> consume would heal up a buildings damage a little bit if you let it go the whole duration --> ensnare harassing workerlines (slowed workers mine slower) would deal a tiny bit of damage and stop their mining. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
- People reported it was broken. (I did not see so many games with it myself.) @Tech lab Yes, the build time is 25 seconds. @Irradiate Yes, I will nerf the range from 8 to maybe 6 in the next patch. @Ensnare Yes, it reveals cloaked units. @Banshee range Yes, the Banshee might need longer range. They have range 4 now. Maybe 5 or 6 would be better? @The spells for Viper I would prefer if the Viper has some spell or some reason to move out of the deathball. With only Ensnare + Abduct, no matter if they become pimped a bit, the Viper will still only be useful together with the main army. That was the problem with the old Starbow Infestor. It had no real harassment /map control potential. Is it really worth to bother Ensnaring enemy workers mining, just to slow them down for ca 12 seconds? @Johnnys idea about G4-Charges on the Ghost Johnny has made a test map uploaded on the Arcade. Search for Starbow and you will find it, I think? In it he proposes that Ghosts shall get the G4-Charge ability, which allows it to throw a bomb at target location. After ca 5 seconds the bomb explodes and deals damage. Try it and discuss it. @Spider mines The Spider mine dynamic in BW worked very well. It does not seem to work as well in the SC2 enginge. Maybe is it due to better AI, or the way units attack? So I do not think the current version of the Spider mine is good. They have never felt great. So I would like to dig deeper into this. All suggestions and solutions are welcome. Also, it may be due to missing the particular pages discussing it but I don't understand: Or rather, the ATTACK of the Spider mine can be attacked. When the Spider mine unburrows and moves towards its target, the Spider mine itself is the missile/weapon. Compare it to the Widow mine: it launches a missile that deals damage to the enemy. Imagine if the missile was killable by enemy units. It would make Widow mines very bad vs clumped up ranged units. That is one of the problems we have now with the Spider mine. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9389 Posts
- Burrowed Spider mines have the same attack priority as normal units. - Spider mines who are just planted must be target fired. (During the few seconds it takes to burrow.) - Spider mines who unburrows must be target fired. This seems right. I would prefer if the Viper has some spell or some reason to move out of the deathball. With only Ensnare + Abduct, no matter if they become pimped a bit, the Viper will still only be useful together with the main army. That was the problem with the old Starbow Infestor. It had no real harassment /map control potential. Is it really worth to bother Ensnaring enemy workers mining, just to slow them down for ca 12 seconds? I like the idea behind breed. It's just that it seems underpowered at the moment. I tried this: 5 vipers against an equal cost of marine + medi. I assumed each viper would have roughly 100 energy (so that is like 10 breeds). What ended up happening was that like 2 marines died in the battle, and this makes me think that you never want to use it to improve your defenders advantage. In terms of using it for harass purposes, it is imo way overpriced and relies on the opponent not having vision over his base + just plain bad multitasking. I think it would be an easy fix if price of viper was just reduced. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Stats of the spawned unit: HP 140 Armor 1 Biological Damage 9 Attack cooldown 2 seconds Small splash attack Attack range 1.5 Speed 2.5 Attacks ground only. Quite large model and radius, so it is hard to get many attacking at the same time since they block each other. Short range also makes it hard for many to attack at the same time. This makes them good in smaller numbers, but cost inefficient when spammed in large numbers. Thoughts on how to improve them without breaking the game? Ps. Eggs cost 50 energy each, has 50 HP, and takes 20 seconds to morph. Pss. Viper costs 150/100. Defiler 100/150. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9389 Posts
On July 03 2013 20:48 Kabel wrote: @Breed Stats of the spawned unit: HP 140 Armor 1 Biological Damage 9 Attack cooldown 2 seconds Small splash attack Attack range 1.5 Speed 2.5 Attacks ground only. Quite large model and radius, so it is hard to get many attacking at the same time since they block each other. Short range also makes it hard for many to attack at the same time. This makes them good in smaller numbers, but cost inefficient when spammed in large numbers. Thoughts on how to improve them without breaking the game? Ps. Eggs cost 50 energy each, has 50 HP, and takes 20 seconds to morph. Pss. Viper costs 150/100. Defiler 100/150. If breed's doesn't scale very well (when spammed), would it then be a problem if energy was reduced to 25? That would make it possible to fly vipers into opponents base. Breed a bit, return home and breed some more in ancitipation of the opponent attakcing you. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9389 Posts
What about giving this attack animation that could kite? This way it would synergize well with the rupture mine. This way it could do well vs hydras/marines that were slowed, but once the slow duration expired, they would have to retreat. Anyway, the mine looks really strong vs zerg, but it kinda suffers from medi's healing so goddamn fast that it makes it unoticeable vs terran. I wonder though, is it really neccesary that medi's heal at the same rate as medivacs? Wouldn't it make more sense that (since its a cheaper unit) it healed at 2 or 2.5 hp/second instead of 3? Bio can obviously easily be compensated in different ways. But espeically if maurauder is introduced, then we may just see toss having to tech superfast to AOE units (reaver + ht) to be cost efficient vs bio. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
When spider mines popped up, they were not attacked until maybe .5-.7 seconds. This was great because dragoons and hydralisks couldn't get their shoots off fast enough to take it out. Compare this to SC2 where hydralisks and stalkers get their shots off extremely fast. To circumvent this I had to increase the unforgettable time to around 1 second. It simulated the BW mine, but apparently felt more awkward to some people. In BW a dragoon would walk right up to a mine before it started to shoot at it. A stalker would run a little to the side of the mine. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
This is just a simple summary based on the last 4-5 days of play I have observerd, and what players have told me. These are the problematic patterns that seems to emerge in the match-ups: TvP: Terran has a very hard time being aggressive. As soon as Protoss gain Blink Stalkers or Warp Prism with Warp in, Terran is in huge trouble. If he moves out, it is so easy for Protoss to get a huge army inside the Terran base in the mid game. This forces Terran to play very defensively, with many Turrets, Vikings and Tanks spread out across his base. Meanwhile, Protoss camps his army outside the Terran base. As soon as Terran tries to push, Protoss gets his army inside the Terran base, forcing him back. While this happens, Protoss also expand a lot and just takes the map. This creates kinda lame games where not much happens for the first 20 minutes, Terran does a big mech push in the late game. If it succedes, he wins. If it fails, Protoss wins. ZvP: Zerg seems to be the stronger race in this match-up. If Protoss manages to get his third up at around the 8-9 minute mark, he is fine to move on in the game. If Zerg denies it, the game will end soon due to Zergs overwhelming production and expanding. Zerg seems able to both expand, Drone up, tech, be aggressive, defend, everything at once. Protoss needs to play a "perfect game" to keep up/win. TvZ: Not sure about this match-up yet. It seems ok? Players tell me different things. Fill in with more thoughts! Especially Solid, Hider and Alpha who have played a lot of PvZ and TvPs lately! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
TvP: Terran can't move out, Protoss can't move in. But, these kind of stalemates often come from lowlevel play with a generally well balanced matchup. It indicates that balance is very close to where it should be and people just don't know how to take offensive/defensive risks, which is why they play overly passive. I'd say, give this matchup more time. I don't see any huge problems at the moment, maybe apart from lategame balance being a little bit too focused on stasis field (though I people really should experiment more with carriers). ZvP: Zerg is probably too strong. But it's not a lot. I think one of the main problems in ZvP in any starcraft game is always how Protoss will have to explore specific builds to get a natural and a third base while staying safe against zerg brute force builds. Thus, I think zerg being slightly favored in an unexplored game of starcraft should be considered quite the norm. TvZ: I think in a passive game zerg can keep up with terran pretty well. But if the Terran pushes in the midgame while expanding, a zerg has a hard time getting the expansions up, surviving the attacks AND teching to the crucial lategame units it takes to be able to combat mass science vessels. But this could just be a BO problem. The larva rate is so different from SC2 that it is simply a very different playstyle in the midgame, as you can't just hatch an army in a minute and be fine. And people don't really adapt to that in an active matchup like TvZ imo. Overall, I think balance is pretty good. The only real problems are that some units/playstyles feel least not strong enough or at least weird. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9389 Posts
On July 04 2013 18:33 Big J wrote: I'm surely not the most active player around, but these are my thoughts on the matchups: TvP: Terran can't move out, Protoss can't move in. But, these kind of stalemates often come from lowlevel play with a generally well balanced matchup. It indicates that balance is very close to where it should be and people just don't know how to take offensive/defensive risks, which is why they play overly passive. I'd say, give this matchup more time. I don't see any huge problems at the moment, maybe apart from lategame balance being a little bit too focused on stasis field (though I people really should experiment more with carriers). ZvP: Zerg is probably too strong. But it's not a lot. I think one of the main problems in ZvP in any starcraft game is always how Protoss will have to explore specific builds to get a natural and a third base while staying safe against zerg brute force builds. Thus, I think zerg being slightly favored in an unexplored game of starcraft should be considered quite the norm. TvZ: I think in a passive game zerg can keep up with terran pretty well. But if the Terran pushes in the midgame while expanding, a zerg has a hard time getting the expansions up, surviving the attacks AND teching to the crucial lategame units it takes to be able to combat mass science vessels. But this could just be a BO problem. The larva rate is so different from SC2 that it is simply a very different playstyle in the midgame, as you can't just hatch an army in a minute and be fine. And people don't really adapt to that in an active matchup like TvZ imo. Overall, I think balance is pretty good. The only real problems are that some units/playstyles feel least not strong enough or at least weird. I will write a longer post later today, but quick comments; TvP mech will IMO be more and more stalemale'ish the more it gets figured out. The big difference between Starbow and BW lies in the fact that the protoss player (for reasons I will discuss later) couldn't just sit outside the terrans bases and preventing anything from happening. On the other hand, as the terran knows he can't do anything offensively during the first 20 minutes, a smart terrran will prevent any type of warp prism harass/blink harass from occuring. Especially since these harass-techniques can be so unforgiving. His tools? 1) Get more siege tanks than vultures. 2) Roughly 2 patrolling vikings, or 1 patrolling viking with 2-3 turrets. If done correct, protoss won't be able to do anything offensively. Instead, he will take more bases and use the stalkers as a "prevent anything from happening"- unit. At the moment, I think action will start happening once terran takes 4th base as most terran players won't have good enough multitasking to efficiently deny everything. However, with a refined build I am very convinced that absolutely nothing will happen once terran is on 3 bases. A better (terran) player would also make sure that nothing would happen once on 4 bases, but that is not reaslitic for most players. Nevertheless, the terran is doomed to turtle for 40+ minutes, since counterattacking is a much more severe threat than it was in BW (as your spread out over more bases). ZvP - I don't think the matchup is imbalanced. It's just a lot more forgiving for zerg. For instance, if protoss tries to takes a 3rd and is denied in the proces, he basically outrigt loses the game right there. If, on the other hand, the zerg is failing in the attempt of killing the 3rd before cannons goes up - He really doesn't get that much behind. The problem lies in the economy of Starbow. It makes taking a quick 3rd a "science" for protoss, and punishes unrefined players too severely. Kabel and I, have discussed small tweaks which would make it slightly easier for protoss to take a 3rd/not get overrun. TvZ - I think problems in this matchup are mostly related to medi healing. It makes hydralisks, speedlings and mutalisks useless IMO. The correct way to play as zerg is to go pure bling (or maybe ling/lurker) into hive while going heavy upgrades. But eventually I expect that a terran with great drop play and matrix + splitting micro could give me a lot of problems. I have suggested to reduce it from 3 to 2, but I think Kabel will stick to 2.5 for now. Nevertheless, terran bio will/should be compensated in a different way (which doesn't hardcounter hydralisks/mutalisks). Further, I think your a bit too much in the Sc2-mindset as you imply that zerg needs more workers than the opponent. But in Starbow, you can easily be 5 workers behind and still have better income, as long as you have better saturation, and if the terran wants to army trade, he will have an increasingly more difficult time securing a 3rd/4th, which benefits the zerg significantly. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On July 03 2013 19:31 Kabel wrote: @The spells for Viper I would prefer if the Viper has some spell or some reason to move out of the deathball. With only Ensnare + Abduct, no matter if they become pimped a bit, the Viper will still only be useful together with the main army. That was the problem with the old Starbow Infestor. It had no real harassment /map control potential. Is it really worth to bother Ensnaring enemy workers mining, just to slow them down for ca 12 seconds? Probably not, but I like it for 1 - Detection in a pinch 2 - Potential detection on a unit that flies faster than an overseer, which is nice for hunting down observers and Dark Templar, or at least with some army, because you can be scouting for pylons with a small force and see them. Mostly you'd just use overseers, of course, but the extra speed of the viper can mean that you catch something fast like a DT or observer. 3 - Slowing of the enemies' attack rates when defending your own base from being sniped 4 - Delaying an army that is pushing (won't work so well against armies that require many ensnares to be covered, but you can still slow down the most crucial units that they won't want to leave behind). The fact that it only lasts for 12 seconds now makes it a pretty unlikely to do much though, so maybe strike that option. 5 - Like AoE concussive shells when you engage some force with a stronger force. I just personally like the idea of being able to have either of the more direct support abilities as soon as vipers pop out, because it's the main reason I'd normally want them. I think having them as a harassment option should be secondary, but the delay before being able to would justify the spawned critters being quite a nuisance. On July 03 2013 19:31 Kabel wrote: When the Spider mine unburrows and moves towards its target, the Spider mine itself is the missile/weapon. Compare it to the Widow mine: it launches a missile that deals damage to the enemy. Imagine if the missile was killable by enemy units. It would make Widow mines very bad vs clumped up ranged units. That is one of the problems we have now with the Spider mine. Oh, I see, yes, but it's a bit funny to me, considering "being able to attack a widow mine shot", seeing as it's a spell that is guaranteed to hit, but yes, if it had hit points and moved towards the enemy (even quickly), at least if you could automatically target it, Widow Mines would be terrible. On July 03 2013 20:29 Hider wrote: I think it would be an easy fix if price of viper was just reduced. (and posts afterwards)Oh wow, people think Vipers are too cheap at 150/100! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Zerg on 3 bases can be behind ca 10 workers and still have the same economy as Terran or Protoss on 2 bases. This is due to the efficency of spreading out workers. I like that workers become efficent when spread out, since that helps to promote getting more bases. But atm it looks like Zerg benefits too much from it. A potential solution can be to change the number of mineral patches at each base. Almost all bases on all maps have 8 mineral patches. All mineral patches consists of 1500 minerals. BUT for the last 6 months, HALF of all mineral patches at each base only contains 1000. Why? + Show Spoiler + The point of this is to provide an other "reason" to manage the economy. If a player is careful he can make sure to redistribute his workers once a base deplets all 1000-patches. (Instead of having all 16 workers mining there all the time, which just is a waste when there are only a couple of 1500-patches left.) This also contributes to make players more eager to expand, since bases tend to support your economy most when newly taken, but becomes weaker and weaker over time. Maybe it is not necessary to let this system remain. Anyway, what about this? 10 mineral patches at the main 9 mineral patches at the natural expansion 8 mineral patches at the third, and all other expansions. This would make 1 and 2 base play a little stronger. Expanding to many bases is still important, but Protoss and Terran would not get as punished vs Zerg if they are denied their third expansion around the 8-9 minute mark. Zerg would not be able to keep as strong economy by just having 3 bases vs 2, despite being down greatly in worker count. Thoughts? Maybe even larger differences on the mineral patches? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
The only economy issue is with ZvP at the moment, which comes from Protoss not being able to expand in time/hold that expansion. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
That early prism opening can do something if the zerg still hasn't got any units around 8 mins, which smart zergs always have, to denie the third. So i'll maybe kill 1 drone or queen and getting out if i'm lucky. So there are 2 options, either i stay on 2 bases for longer until i have some reavers out, by then i'm too far behind economically, or i take a fast third and hope i don't get punished for it by either mutas or a big hydrabust. This is the reason I said before that stalkers vs hydra's are a joke, which got replied to that the reaver makes up for that, now that's true in midgame, not in earlygame. I'm not yet throwing the towel into the ring, but I'm a bit demoralized at the moment. Tomorrowevening i have some more time to play, i'll explore some 2gate openings in pvz if someone's up for it. This will allow me to put on pressure with zealots, take a quick third on low tech and if i take my gasses in time i should be able to react to what i see. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Edit: Details for the next patch. - Zergling build time increased from 24 to 27 seconds. - Hydralisk build time increased from 30 to 33 seconds. - Queen attack cooldown nerfed from 1 second to 1,25 seconds. The point of this is to make Zerg more vulnerable when not having units. It will be a slightly larger risk in playing greedy, which might make it easier for Protoss to punish Zerg. (Since it will be harder to pop a large amount of Zerg units so quickly.) - Spider mine reworked as descriped in the post on the previous page. Mostly it is an AI change. - Irradiate has 6 casting range instead of 8. - Shock has been pimped even more. - Banshee range increased from 4 to 5. - Sentinels attack is now more microable, which might make it stronger for early harassment. - Speed Zealots and speed Hydralisks now have the same movement speed. (Earlier, speed Hydras were faster!) Some bug fixes. I think this was all.. Hmm Thoughts? Ps. I have no solution to TvP yet. That match-up tends to be quite stale, where neither player can attack the other for a couple of reasons, which often leads to lame games. There are some possible adjustments that can be made, but nothing feels right enough. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9389 Posts
Adding another +30 seconds to build time of spire, would have two positive effects for the matchup; 1) Increase duration of zerg being vulnerable in the early game. While harassing with warp prisms, protoss could take a 3rd. 2) Make it easier for protoss to have blink stalkers out when mutas arive without having to rush for them. In terms of mineral patches per base, they should be balanced based on how easy it is to take a 3rd. On a map like Breakout 10/8 might work. On maps like Starbow Haven though, I would definitely recommend 12/10. Nevertheless, the fundamental problem is that protoss just has so little stuff when they need to take a 3rd. This makes losing a bit of stuff or teching in harass so risky. On one hand though, I do like that protoss's should take a pre 10 minute 3rd, becasue it makes it possible for the zerg to attack --> action starts. However, either protoss just just need better defensive prereaver abilities, or they simply need more stuff. After watching the below, it got me convinced that I think we should opt for the latter (more stuff - in terms of army value). The reason I link to a HOTS video of tvz is that the matchup in some ways actually resembles PvZ quite a bit. Z in Starbow = Terran in HOTS. Hydralisks = Marine/marauder Lurker = Widow mine Overlord drops = medivacs Both races are constantly in the offensive But zerg in HOTS, unlike protoss in Starbow can much better handle the constant pressure from the terran player for two reasons; 1) There is a small defenders advantage due to creep spread and widow mines being slightly better in the defensive than in the offensive. 2) Zerg's production in HOTS is much higher than Protoss production in Starbow. So what we are seing in HOTS is a matchup where the terran player is rewarded for army trading over and over (just as Z in Starbow). He has a unit which is slightly better in the defensive, the widow mine (the lurker) - This unit allows him to attack and then safely retreat behind his widow mines. With good micro he can do this over and over. While I think the problem with this matchup in HOTS is that it is too undynamic (as terran basically can do the same thing in the mid and late game), I think that this type of midgame dynamic is something that could and should be applied to Starbow too some extent. In the late game though, we should look more to the positional aspect of the game with higher tech units. In that regard, Starbow feels much better than Sc2, but in terms of midgame dynamic, Starbow feels inferior in many ways and I think we should be inspired of what works well in HOTS. The problem in the Starbow midgame though is that protoss just can't afford to take these army trades. They have so much worse production that they need to tech straight to reavers and rely on a much higher cost efficiency. The solution is IMO to make the reaver tech rush less of a neccesity, and instead make it much easier for the protoss to just have more stuff out in the midgame. At the same time, the hydra/lurker micro battles vs gateway/sentinel compositions must be microintensive. RIght now, I would argue that protoss doesn't feel very micro intensive untill reavers are out. I have an idea for an altenrative protoss line up, and though my primary intention behind that lineup is to fix the TvP matchup, I also think it could help to make protoss gateway units vs zerg better. Further, it will be nice to see how the sentinel feels when it can kite. I would like this unit to be a unit you can get 2-3 of after a warp prism harass opening. But besides the sentinel, slightly slower zerg production and an alternative gateway line up, there are other stuff we can look at; - Buff chronoboost back to Sc2 values. - Mineral patches (as previously mentioned). - Increase the duration of the midgame by increasing BT of robo bay. I fear that if protoss gets buffed in too many ways, then protoss will still opt to just rush for reavers while having a stronger army in the proces. Reavers are an awesome unit, but they shouldn't come too early in the game IMO. | ||
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