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On May 28 2012 23:43 jarf1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 23:39 Durn wrote:
This community is fucking ridiculous sometimes. Day9 does not owe us an apology, he does not owe it to us to leave the scene, he does not owe us shit. People are forgetting the grass roots of the scene: this is a man who was balancing a full time education while travelling internationally and dedicating many free hours for our entertainment (without costing us a fucking penny).
He took a chance on an invite to a tournament, and it didn't pay off. It could've been an amazing upset to have a complete unknown go on a tear through a stacked tournament (which I'm sure is why D9 invited him) but it didn't happen.
That's all this is. There is no need for lynching, no need to be upset. One player didn't perform adequately despite an invite to a prestigious tournament. Stop being so fucking entitled.
Edit: This is directed to the thread, not the comments on the podcast. I think your signature says it all. That's a simple rehash of edison's quote about failure and creating lightbulbs. Day9 is no super human and he has profited greatly (Artosis has talked about their awesome new caster salaries) from the scene. He does owe the fans something, as without fans the entire scene is destroyed.
http://blip.tv/day9tv
Well golly, that was easy.
Day[9]'s the reason there are so many fans to begin with. And Husky. And Artosis and Tasteless. And TotalfuckingBiscuit. And every single pro-gamer out there working their ass off. And Blizzard, and the game itself. And TeamLiquid.
If your argument is that Day[9] owes you something, you need to get off your high horse and do something for this fucking community, because I know I'm sure as hell not doing nearly enough to call out one of the icons of e-sports.
On May 28 2012 17:23 farnham wrote:
day9 needs to apologize to the scene or leave the scene after this debacle with last shadow
Joke right? Farnham was the drunk from Diablo, so you're spouting silly, nonsensical things just to be funny?
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Going to go a little bit out of topic here, but just want to say I found it hilarious with members of this website try to create some artificial dichotomy between the same community that is /r/starcraft and teamliquid.net. It's ok to think /r/starcraft is a shithole, filled with 'hate' and what have you, but please stop with the delusion that it's any better in here. It's the same community, the same people. Stop it, because you look like buffoons.
That said, I'm glad to see there's a backslash against LastShadow / Day9 fiasco thing. I wouldn't go as far as to call it hate or a witchhunt/pitchforking. It's just people's opinions, which happen to be negative. It was questionable at best if it is the case that LastShadow was only there for circumstances not having to do with his Starcraft career. But let's take the Day9 over-the-top positive stance, at least LastShadow play horribly and he was humilliated. He'll never get a free-ride invite to these sort of events again. Hooray!
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8751 Posts
The debate shouldn't be about the particular players that were invited. The debate should be about whether these type of "wild card" players should be invited at all. If we do accept unproven players for the unique benefits they provide to the lineup then we must also accept that sometimes they will get decimated. It isn't a mistake in retrospect when players like LS and Ostojiy go 0-3. I think everyone would be extremely grateful to Day[9] and Red Bull if they catapulted a new and interesting player into prominence. But if that happened, it doesn't mean they'd then double the amount of unproven players they invite. Just like the opposite doesn't mean they remove all unproven players from future Battlegrounds.
Some people view invitationals as barriers for new players because "the same people get invited every time." In that case, popular players who the educated minority know don't deserve a spot still get spots to please the majority. Red Bull Battlegrounds does the opposite. There is some educated minority that knows certain players are on the verge of a breakthrough and they just need a few chances. The majority will wonder why the hell these random guys got invites over their more proven favorite player.
Invitationals purposely tend toward one of those two directions while also inviting the best players or they just invite the best players. None of the three ways is the correct way to do it. They'll run the kind of event they want to run. But if the community felt strongly enough one way or the other, it could force their hand. Personally I like a bit of every type of event.
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At the end of the day it's a tempest in a teacup. Not really that important, just happened to occur at a time when Day was already being criticized.
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i really liked the choice to invite illusion it gives new up and comers a chance to shine
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On May 29 2012 00:47 Young Terran wrote:
i really liked the choice to invite illusion it gives new up and comers a chance to shine
Illusion was a very good invite, but he already has super good results (IPL4 beating Code S players)so i don't think it was a suprise that he played well.
Imo tournaments should be invite only, or half invite/half qualifiers because some players won't find the time to play the qualifiers since they travel so much etc..
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On May 28 2012 23:17 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 22:58 Quotidian wrote:On May 28 2012 22:32 FuzzyJAM wrote:On May 28 2012 22:02 Quotidian wrote:On May 28 2012 17:23 farnham wrote:
day9 needs to apologize to the scene or leave the scene after this debacle with last shadow
he got in a player that has no (positive record) and let him into poolplay with players like parting or squirtle
last shadow lost every match he played and left the tournament in a bm manner because he didnt "feel well".
did mvp feel well with his injured wrist when he won gsl against squirtle last week? probably not.
day 9 got in a player that doesnt fit the criteria of "one of the best players in the world" and he needs to feel responsible for this . the last time an invite like this was done was probably lucifron in dreamhack valencia but that was to appeal to the local crowd. this time there is no real reason outside that lastshadow seems to be a friend of day 9 Day9 doesn't "need" to do anything. Acquire a grasp on reality, please. It's just a game and LS playing and failing isn't important enough to demand anybody's head on the block. Sheth, Ostojiy, Thorzain or Illusion didn't exactly have extremely impressive runs either (perfectly understandable results given the level of competition), but no one is getting upset about this - but that's because we've collectively decided to like Sheth or whatever. I had my fair share of schadenfreude when LS went 0-3 as well, because that's just human nature, but this LS/Day9 nepotism witchhunt that Incontrol is partially responsible for just shows how dumb and single minded this community is. Get over it. Being OK with Sheth, Ostojiy, Thorzain or Illusion might have more to do with the fact that they're actually known players who have at least had some success. It makes sense if you want to have foreigners (and assuming you don't get whoever you want) to go with them. LastShadow hasn't done anything impressive ever and hadn't even been seen for about a year. Vastly different. + Show Spoiler + OstojiyAchievements 2011 Date Event Result 2011-06-17 Toronto Quest for the Best Ostojiy 3 : 1 IefNaij 2011-06-12 US Go4SC2 Cup #64 Ostojiy 2 : 1 daisuki 2011-05-15 US Go4SC2 Cup #56 Ostojiy 3 : 0 LuckyFool 2011-04-30 US CraftCup #31 Ostojiy 1 : 3 SungpA LastShadowAchievements 2011 Date Event Result 2011-11-06 NESC2 League Season 2 LastShadow 2 : 3 Boyo 2011-07-02 NA ZOTAC Cup #8 LastShadow 3 : 0 HongUn 2011-05-21 NA ZOTAC Cup #2 LastShadow 3 : 2 rsvp 2011-04-17 NESC2 League Season 1 LastShadow 3 : 1 Ryan 2011-04-15 IG Cup #6 LastShadow 4 : 3 Warden 2010 Date Event Result 2010-08-28 MLG Raleigh LastShadow 0 : 2 Socke 2010-08-15 NVIDIA GosuCup US Qualifier #1 LastShadow 3 : 1 HayprO So how does Ostojiy get out of a 0-3 unremarked upon, while LS gets hounded, while idiots are demanding Day9's retirement because of LS' performance? You're forgetting that he actually has a team and is very active in team leagues as well... Plus he didn't go 0-4 in maps and leave the event.
Ya thats the big part for me. Any player who quits on an opportunity like that loses my respect as an SC2 pro. They hurt everyone by that action including fans, the event managers, other plays competing at the event and most of all the other unknown players who might want to get their break in an invitational like that.
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On May 28 2012 18:29 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 17:55 yeint wrote:On May 28 2012 17:23 farnham wrote:
day9 needs to apologize to the scene or leave the scene after this debacle with last shadow This post is retarded even by the standards of this thread. I agree that saying day9 should leave the scene is stupid, but I am getting tired of all the white knighting for him. My opinions of how his casting and show have gone downhill over the past year are just that, opinions, but this Last Shadow debacle really tarnished day. On SotG (or was it Lo3) he didn't even acknowledge that LS had past issues (hell the guy even got kicked out of the GOM house), and basically dodged everything he was asked by diverting into some narcissistic monologue following every question. I hope someone can bring Day back down to earth, how he portrays himself has changed drastically in the past 1 to 1 1/2 years.
And you continue with making the thread even more retarded by fabricating stories. On Lo3 Sean said he does not know anything about any BM issues, he did not deny that there are. And what questions did he dodge by narcissistic monologue ? You mean the non-sensical 2GD's remark they were discussing ?
Btw. the GOM house controversy is as far as I know bunch of untrustworthy people claiming different things.
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On May 29 2012 01:06 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 18:29 Duravi wrote:On May 28 2012 17:55 yeint wrote:On May 28 2012 17:23 farnham wrote:
day9 needs to apologize to the scene or leave the scene after this debacle with last shadow This post is retarded even by the standards of this thread. I agree that saying day9 should leave the scene is stupid, but I am getting tired of all the white knighting for him. My opinions of how his casting and show have gone downhill over the past year are just that, opinions, but this Last Shadow debacle really tarnished day. On SotG (or was it Lo3) he didn't even acknowledge that LS had past issues (hell the guy even got kicked out of the GOM house), and basically dodged everything he was asked by diverting into some narcissistic monologue following every question. I hope someone can bring Day back down to earth, how he portrays himself has changed drastically in the past 1 to 1 1/2 years. And you continue with making the thread even more retarded by fabricating stories. On Lo3 Sean said he does not know anything about any BM issues, he did not deny that there are. And what questions did he dodge by narcissistic monologue ? You mean the non-sensical 2GD's remark they were discussing ? Btw. the GOM house controversy is as far as I know bunch of untrustworthy people claiming different things.
oh come on. The guy was a known hacker/bm'er in BW. As if you can pretend Day9 had never heard of this.
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On May 29 2012 01:07 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 01:06 mcc wrote:On May 28 2012 18:29 Duravi wrote:On May 28 2012 17:55 yeint wrote:On May 28 2012 17:23 farnham wrote:
day9 needs to apologize to the scene or leave the scene after this debacle with last shadow This post is retarded even by the standards of this thread. I agree that saying day9 should leave the scene is stupid, but I am getting tired of all the white knighting for him. My opinions of how his casting and show have gone downhill over the past year are just that, opinions, but this Last Shadow debacle really tarnished day. On SotG (or was it Lo3) he didn't even acknowledge that LS had past issues (hell the guy even got kicked out of the GOM house), and basically dodged everything he was asked by diverting into some narcissistic monologue following every question. I hope someone can bring Day back down to earth, how he portrays himself has changed drastically in the past 1 to 1 1/2 years. And you continue with making the thread even more retarded by fabricating stories. On Lo3 Sean said he does not know anything about any BM issues, he did not deny that there are. And what questions did he dodge by narcissistic monologue ? You mean the non-sensical 2GD's remark they were discussing ? Btw. the GOM house controversy is as far as I know bunch of untrustworthy people claiming different things. oh come on. The guy was a known hacker/bm'er in BW. As if you can pretend Day9 had never heard of this.
He has 14y old then.
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On May 29 2012 01:07 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 01:06 mcc wrote:On May 28 2012 18:29 Duravi wrote:On May 28 2012 17:55 yeint wrote:On May 28 2012 17:23 farnham wrote:
day9 needs to apologize to the scene or leave the scene after this debacle with last shadow This post is retarded even by the standards of this thread. I agree that saying day9 should leave the scene is stupid, but I am getting tired of all the white knighting for him. My opinions of how his casting and show have gone downhill over the past year are just that, opinions, but this Last Shadow debacle really tarnished day. On SotG (or was it Lo3) he didn't even acknowledge that LS had past issues (hell the guy even got kicked out of the GOM house), and basically dodged everything he was asked by diverting into some narcissistic monologue following every question. I hope someone can bring Day back down to earth, how he portrays himself has changed drastically in the past 1 to 1 1/2 years. And you continue with making the thread even more retarded by fabricating stories. On Lo3 Sean said he does not know anything about any BM issues, he did not deny that there are. And what questions did he dodge by narcissistic monologue ? You mean the non-sensical 2GD's remark they were discussing ? Btw. the GOM house controversy is as far as I know bunch of untrustworthy people claiming different things. oh come on. The guy was a known hacker/bm'er in BW. As if you can pretend Day9 had never heard of this.
I am not a mind reader, unlike you. I am rather sure he knew about BW hacking, but he did not comment on past hacking, so no problem there. And why would he know about the BM issues. Some people could care less about all the drama on the forums. People who love the drama have really skewed idea about how much the rest knows about player's behaviour and out of game history in general. I knew he hacked in BW, but I knew nothing about him being BM before this whole nonsense started.
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On May 29 2012 00:47 Young Terran wrote:
i really liked the choice to invite illusion it gives new up and comers a chance to shine
Ya I was on the fence on whether I liked all the kind of unknowns being invited but most of them did pretty well specifically Illusion.
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I don't think there are many people who wouldn't have said that there were going to be some poor performances at this event, and if you have half a brain you'd have guessed the poor performers would have ended up being the vast majority of the foreigners. Should they have just not invited any foreigners at all?
Hell they had players drop out before the tournament anyway, Seems to me like they had more trouble filling the spots than anything else. If I had to invite 16 players to a tournament, and could only get my top 12, you can bet your ass a friend of mine would be one of the last 4 when I didn't expect any of the other picks to do well in the tournament anyway. Nepotism is, unfortunately, not illegal in the states (at least not my state, where I'm currently looking for a new job to replace the one I'm at now where nepotism killed it) and I don't see how we can realistically be angry about a free to watch tournament that ended up with one questionable invite.
And as many have said, you can be annoyed with Day[9]'s invite of this guy (though to be honest I'd bet money that red bull could have said "nahhhh, lets not invite this relative no-name", and that Sean wasn't the only person involved in invites) but that's really as far as you can go without being unreasonable. Like or hate his casting, his demeanor, or anything else about him all you want, but he's done more for the scene than you have (this includes like every pro). It would be one thing if he said "Oh, SC2 is a terrible game, the people who play it are terrible, I'm only in this for the money" but a poor decision on an invite is a remarkably stupid reason to get on someone's case.
For the record, what I watched of the red bull battlegrounds was phenomenal, showing some amazing games, and I loved the shit out of the casting. I don't care if they invite Noobity, the diamond level NA player to play against a pool with Incontrol, Ostojiy, and Drewbie. I'll still watch those games, take them with a grain of salt, and look forward to the bracket play because this shit ain't easy, and everyone makes mistakes, and not everyone invited to a tournament can win a game sometimes, regardless of how difficult their pool is.
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On May 29 2012 00:44 Liquid`NonY wrote:
The debate shouldn't be about the particular players that were invited.
It is true that this is so much just people shitting on LS and Day9.
It'd be nice if people could have the discussion without being toolbags, hope people listen.
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On May 29 2012 01:19 Noobity wrote:
I don't think there are many people who wouldn't have said that there were going to be some poor performances at this event, and if you have half a brain you'd have guessed the poor performers would have ended up being the vast majority of the foreigners. Should they have just not invited any foreigners at all?
Hell they had players drop out before the tournament anyway, Seems to me like they had more trouble filling the spots than anything else. If I had to invite 16 players to a tournament, and could only get my top 12, you can bet your ass a friend of mine would be one of the last 4 when I didn't expect any of the other picks to do well in the tournament anyway. Nepotism is, unfortunately, not illegal in the states (at least not my state, where I'm currently looking for a new job to replace the one I'm at now where nepotism killed it) and I don't see how we can realistically be angry about a free to watch tournament that ended up with one questionable invite.
And as many have said, you can be annoyed with Day[9]'s invite of this guy (though to be honest I'd bet money that red bull could have said "nahhhh, lets not invite this relative no-name", and that Sean wasn't the only person involved in invites) but that's really as far as you can go without being unreasonable. Like or hate his casting, his demeanor, or anything else about him all you want, but he's done more for the scene than you have (this includes like every pro). It would be one thing if he said "Oh, SC2 is a terrible game, the people who play it are terrible, I'm only in this for the money" but a poor decision on an invite is a remarkably stupid reason to get on someone's case.
For the record, what I watched of the red bull battlegrounds was phenomenal, showing some amazing games, and I loved the shit out of the casting. I don't care if they invite Noobity, the diamond level NA player to play against a pool with Incontrol, Ostojiy, and Drewbie. I'll still watch those games, take them with a grain of salt, and look forward to the bracket play because this shit ain't easy, and everyone makes mistakes, and not everyone invited to a tournament can win a game sometimes, regardless of how difficult their pool is.
The only thing I disagree with in this post is they Day9 has done more for the scene then "like every pro". I guess I don't know all of his goings on or what not but I know plenty of people who follow this game from a spectator standpoint who has never seen anything Day9 has done.
Hes done a lot of good no doubt but I think sometimes we underestimate what the pros and some of the other personalities involved in SC2 do. I feel like Day9 does a lot that is focused on newer players which is good and fine, but a blanket "he's done more than anyone" statement isn't really true.
Day9 has his daily streams, casting, and the occasional appearance on SOTG or what have you i'm not sure what he does that sets him apart from pro players or guys like artosis. I mean you have players like Incontrol who stream every day, appear on shows, cast, and compete competitively. Same for Sheth, Grubby, and many other players.
Artosis doesn't stream daily but he does a lot over at gom that we fans can really see you know. He streams occasionally, he interviews a lot of players we otherwise would never hear from, of course he casts the most prestigious tournaments in SC2, tours team houses, and also appears on shows.
Day9 has done a lot of good things for the community no doubt, but I have begun to realize that the whole "he's done more for E-sports" argument isn't really true. Without competitive players there would be no SC2 scene, and competing at the level some of these guys are at is a lot harder than anything Day9 and other sideline personalities I guess you can say do. And after the players I can think of plenty of personalities that do just as much as Day9 does for the community.
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On May 29 2012 01:42 takingbackoj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 01:19 Noobity wrote:
I don't think there are many people who wouldn't have said that there were going to be some poor performances at this event, and if you have half a brain you'd have guessed the poor performers would have ended up being the vast majority of the foreigners. Should they have just not invited any foreigners at all?
Hell they had players drop out before the tournament anyway, Seems to me like they had more trouble filling the spots than anything else. If I had to invite 16 players to a tournament, and could only get my top 12, you can bet your ass a friend of mine would be one of the last 4 when I didn't expect any of the other picks to do well in the tournament anyway. Nepotism is, unfortunately, not illegal in the states (at least not my state, where I'm currently looking for a new job to replace the one I'm at now where nepotism killed it) and I don't see how we can realistically be angry about a free to watch tournament that ended up with one questionable invite.
And as many have said, you can be annoyed with Day[9]'s invite of this guy (though to be honest I'd bet money that red bull could have said "nahhhh, lets not invite this relative no-name", and that Sean wasn't the only person involved in invites) but that's really as far as you can go without being unreasonable. Like or hate his casting, his demeanor, or anything else about him all you want, but he's done more for the scene than you have (this includes like every pro). It would be one thing if he said "Oh, SC2 is a terrible game, the people who play it are terrible, I'm only in this for the money" but a poor decision on an invite is a remarkably stupid reason to get on someone's case.
For the record, what I watched of the red bull battlegrounds was phenomenal, showing some amazing games, and I loved the shit out of the casting. I don't care if they invite Noobity, the diamond level NA player to play against a pool with Incontrol, Ostojiy, and Drewbie. I'll still watch those games, take them with a grain of salt, and look forward to the bracket play because this shit ain't easy, and everyone makes mistakes, and not everyone invited to a tournament can win a game sometimes, regardless of how difficult their pool is. The only thing I disagree with in this post is they Day9 has done more for the scene then "like every pro". I guess I don't know all of his goings on or what not but I know plenty of people who follow this game from a spectator standpoint who has never seen anything Day9 has done. Hes done a lot of good no doubt but I think sometimes we underestimate what the pros and some of the other personalities involved in SC2 do. I feel like Day9 does a lot that is focused on newer players which is good and fine, but a blanket "he's done more than anyone" statement isn't really true. Day9 has his daily streams, casting, and the occasional appearance on SOTG or what have you i'm not sure what he does that sets him apart from pro players or guys like artosis. I mean you have players like Incontrol who stream every day, appear on shows, cast, and compete competitively. Same for Sheth, Grubby, and many other players. Artosis doesn't stream daily but he does a lot over at gom that we fans can really see you know. He streams occasionally, he interviews a lot of players we otherwise would never hear from, of course he casts the most prestigious tournaments in SC2, tours team houses, and also appears on shows. Day9 has done a lot of good things for the community no doubt, but I have begun to realize that the whole "he's done more for E-sports" argument isn't really true.
Fully agreed. The guy's great obviously, but the pedestal some people put him on above others is at times, borderline ridiculous.
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Lastly, a question I got a lot over twitter was will we be seeing you compete in more Korean tournaments such as the Korean Weekly, and although you've said you have no desire to return to the US full time, do you see yourself competing at any foreign events in 2012?
LastShadow: I don't see myself competing in any foreign Tournaments. It's not wise for sponsors to send players toe events they can't guarantee at least a top 4 finish over 90% of the time with certainty, that's a waste of money and if a team/sponsor was supporting me I wouldn't want to waste their money when people like MVP, Nestea, MMA, etc exist and go to events. Additionally one might argue that I could try for the Code A seed through MLG.
That's so morally fucked up I can't even imagine why someone would aim to knowingly steal a seed from a Korean that probably deserves it more than you. If I deserve Code A, I will win through the qualifiers, I shouldn't obtain it through silly invites or online tournaments, that's dishonourable and pathetic compared to what the ancestor game bw set as a standard for us. I'll play in show matches if requested/I get invited to, but that's about the extent of it. If I do happen to join a team that is in GSTL or KSL or whatever, then I will play there too.
^ This seems pretty relevant to the discussion that is going on atm.
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The hating on this guy (LS) is epic. He got a chance because the U.S. pro scene is virtually non-existent right now and unlike any other American he's actually living & training in Korea right now in order to improve. I'm sad he did so badly because he won't get another chance any time soon (and doesn't deserve one until his play improves massively).
Edit for tone.
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On May 28 2012 21:46 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 21:41 Dalavita wrote:On May 28 2012 19:27 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Day9's rapidly declining casting skills are more of an issue than his nepotism for me. What is declining with his casting skills? His game knowledge is poor these days. He consistantly overemphasises things which aren't important. He overhypes everything to the point of insulting the intelligence of the viewers (if the supply is 200 vs 70 the game is over Sean, stop shouting). He is extremely biased towards foreign players His knowledge of players (especially Koreans) is really poor, he doesn't know which tournaments they've done well and doesn't know their best matchups or the styles they favour. He is extremely positive about players even as they play really poorly and especially when foreigners play he will never call a spade a spade. The standard of casters in general is so poor compared with mainstream sports. It's unbelievable that so many casters don't know how players they're casting play or their strengths and weaknesses.
What an excellent post. About a year ago, like at the first MLG Columbus, I thought Day9 was really great and a quality caster. However, he seemingly just started to go down hill until I got frustrated watching him. His constant harps on things that seemingly shouldn't matter (forgetting adrenal upgrade as soon as hive finishes, not re-powering gateways the instant the pylon goes down, etc) and his over enthusiasm is incredibly offsetting. Plus it doesn't help he actually has people filter his criticism.
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On May 29 2012 00:44 Liquid`NonY wrote:
The debate shouldn't be about the particular players that were invited. The debate should be about whether these type of "wild card" players should be invited at all. If we do accept unproven players for the unique benefits they provide to the lineup then we must also accept that sometimes they will get decimated. It isn't a mistake in retrospect when players like LS and Ostojiy go 0-3. I think everyone would be extremely grateful to Day[9] and Red Bull if they catapulted a new and interesting player into prominence. But if that happened, it doesn't mean they'd then double the amount of unproven players they invite. Just like the opposite doesn't mean they remove all unproven players from future Battlegrounds.
Some people view invitationals as barriers for new players because "the same people get invited every time." In that case, popular players who the educated minority know don't deserve a spot still get spots to please the majority. Red Bull Battlegrounds does the opposite. There is some educated minority that knows certain players are on the verge of a breakthrough and they just need a few chances. The majority will wonder why the hell these random guys got invites over their more proven favorite player.
Invitationals purposely tend toward one of those two directions while also inviting the best players or they just invite the best players. None of the three ways is the correct way to do it. They'll run the kind of event they want to run. But if the community felt strongly enough one way or the other, it could force their hand. Personally I like a bit of every type of event.
Well said.
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EPT
