EPTLategame PvT: How? - Page 2
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puppykiller
United States3137 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On January 20 2013 17:22 puppykiller wrote: How do you micro a late game pvt army? I thought that late game pvt was just 1a2a3a and spamming t a bunch. Apparently its harder than I realized. It's also spreading the army properly before moving in, running zealots into tanklines, picking off straggling vultures when retreating with goons, etc. Though (at least for me) by the time I'm done casting spells there isn't much time left over for army micro, especially when there are 25 gates to click through. DragOn, when you say lead with arbiters do you mean just start them moving in first a little ahead of the army and then just a move everything else in, or do you mean take arbiters around one by one and try to "sneak" in stasis/bait emp? Assuming former, could this get problematic if the terran has a good goliath count (i.e. the arbiters out in front just die quickly to gols) or does that not happen in practice? Given the opportunity for both, is it better to stasis a decent clump of tanks or a science vessel? | ||
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2057 Posts
DragOn, when you say lead with arbiters do you mean just start them moving in first a little ahead of the army and then just a move everything else in, or do you mean take arbiters around one by one and try to "sneak" in stasis/bait emp? Assuming former, could this get problematic if the terran has a good goliath count (i.e. the arbiters out in front just die quickly to gols) or does that not happen in practice? the 2nd option is preferred, but sometimes you dont have enough time to react and need to move asap in order to catch the terran before he sieges/mines, so you use option 1. If he has a lot of goliaths, stasis them first, just like vessels, otherwise you wont get off any more stasises. also i think maxed probe #s are a bit less than 74, maybe like 68-70. I think Mywyfe forgot to account for observers | ||
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zimp
Hungary959 Posts
upgrades are important too but you lost that game because you didn't recall at all. both his 3rd and main would have died to recalls. or if he pulls back, you could have cleared his remaining forces. gg | ||
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zimp
Hungary959 Posts
From what i see, on high level protoss has 2 playstyles from mid to lategame (except carrier) on fighting spirit and similar maps. 1. Agressive = Continously attacking and macroing while taking more bases. Now there are different types of this too (both requires multitasking and easier to do with gateway hotkey production). a) A well microed and placed frontal attack with shuttle, storm, 1 stasis around 170 pop. A good trick is to fake an attack to the terran 3rd, then fastly pull everything to the front and attack. This way the terran won't have time to place his tanks properly. Right before you attack, take 4th and if things go well, 5th. This tactic requires flawless macro and exploits the fact that protoss can evolve much faster and be like 20-50 pop ahead at this point vs an upgrade terran. b) After reached 200 and got the 4th base, recall on the terran 3rd. This is followed by a second recall on the main and/or a huge frontal attack and maybe another recall on the 3rd. Meanwhile taking 5th / 6th base and extra gateways. This tactic hugely abuses that terran needs to do much more microing and positioning vs these attacks. You just recall and sometimes pull back or focus, but you have time to expand while he clears your forces. Some might say these strategies are a bit risky because if the terran is fully prepared, you will just die. Well this might be true but in fact it rarely happens that everything is perfect, even on pro level. Also in those cases you can just not attack, because first you check whats up with observer of course. Otherwise you just have to deal closely as much damage as your forces worth, and since you took 1-2 more expos meanwhile, the terran will be behind. But it also happens that the terran is unprepared, and in those cases you will win the game right there (RAPE) or have such an advantage that you can't loose. 2. Passive = Expanding the whole god damn map. Requires good late game mechanics, multitasking, high apm (=macro / micro). Best way to do this vs an upgrade terran is actually to not even wait for 200 to expand. At around 160-70, when you have 2 control of dragoons to clear mines and stop terran harass, you take 4th, 5th and 6th and extra gateways, 3 forge. This way your limiting will be a bit delayed, but still match the terran's 200, and you will already have half of the map with a ton of gateays and then you start to take your 3rd main (~7th base) with gateways at around 14 minute! Just keep an obs above the factories and don't do this if the terran does a 8-10 factory timing vs your expanding. Otherwise just attack reinforce attack reinforce attack reinforce recall reinforce recall / attack and win. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
I felt that when he was pushing to your bottom right bases, you were spread out pretty okay but you let him shell you and made you lose a few templars there without attacking back at all. Overall, I feel you are quite good with the mechanics but probably need more work on your strategic play. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
Once you start to smell a campy terran, either tech arbs or tech storm which ever you feel more comfortable with. Get your upgrades rolling as soon as possible and take your 4th bravely. Add 3rd forge when you can. Have an obs counting his factories or counting his tanks, if you can see both that's even better. At times my upgrades are even faster than a camping 3 base terran. When your supply breaks 180 you should either 1) find a nice opening in his tank formation and trade your army intelligently for as many tanks as you can or 2) recall his main and best case scenario, snipe his armory, halting his +2 weapon or +1 armor or 3) take 5th base and spam gates till around 16+ gates When he moves out, play guerilla warfare and force him to siege and unsiege over and over while keeping your supply high and denying his 4th. Usually the terran will panic and push too hard or too slow. If he pushes at a good speed you can just give him your natural (which is basically dry anyway at this point) and take a new main where you have your second gate field, adding necessary tech and necessary gates. He will usually split a handful of tanks with vult gol support and try hunt down your 5th, but your second gate field should be able to pump enough units to clean this up with arb/storm support. | ||
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Miwyfe
England101 Posts
Ive spent probably a bit too long trying to find the perfect game example. Its time consuming to find the right build orders and styles etc. Ive selected 4 games and put them in order of viewing priority. The first Im gunna suggest checking out is Bisu vs Last on Neo Jade. I chose this game because: 1. Map is similar to FS 2. Cross positions like in your replay 3. Similar openings to your replay. 4. Correct style from both players. The second game I recommend is Best vs Reality on Jade. The third is Horang2 vs Reality on Jade. 4th is Jangbi vs Last on Jade These games I hope are just what you are looking for. Ive spent long enough just trying to find them so Im not going to write about them atm but if you do watch them and have any questions then post away. Also, FyRe_DragOn and zimp and others; if you have time please post your thoughts on these games too. Id love to read that. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3137 Posts
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EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
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zimp
Hungary959 Posts
On January 23 2013 10:05 Miwyfe wrote: This thread needs some videos. Ive spent probably a bit too long trying to find the perfect game example. Its time consuming to find the right build orders and styles etc. Ive selected 4 games and put them in order of viewing priority. The first Im gunna suggest checking out is Bisu vs Last on Neo Jade. I chose this game because: 1. Map is similar to FS 2. Cross positions like in your replay 3. Similar openings to your replay. 4. Correct style from both players. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBa6EW5Sfg4 The second game I recommend is Best vs Reality on Jade. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLyAQkp_H04& The third is Horang2 vs Reality on Jade. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCk4CYDn7qA& 4th is Jangbi vs Last on Jade http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeHSN2bYpkg These games I hope are just what you are looking for. Ive spent long enough just trying to find them so Im not going to write about them atm but if you do watch them and have any questions then post away. Also, FyRe_DragOn and zimp and others; if you have time please post your thoughts on these games too. Id love to read that. + Show Spoiler [Late game protoss strategies in these…] + (stasis is used in all games) Bisu vs Last: bisu abuses the high ground in 2 frontal maxed fights. poor battling from last. mines and good storms kill the clumped tanks. 1 recall to the terran 4th. the remaining terran forces are killed by 1 slow down attack and 2 recalls ON the tanks with a sandwich attack. the game only lasted this long, because bisu entered lategame with huge disadvantage. Best vs Reality: 2 frontal attacks from 2 high grounds. reality attacks too early and has no EMP. Horang2 vs Reality: after the midgame agression a recall on the nat seemed a bit too much for me, nevertheless it kills the armories. but 2-1 already finished (protoss is 2-2-2) and terran attacks. this is killed in 3 waves: 1. middle of the map, time buyer for protoss. 2. high ground abuse close to the protoss nat. 3: protoss is contained with the remaining few tanks, but the reinforced zealots and the zealots from the new main together clear out the terran army. Jangbi vs Last: frontal attack from the high ground. retreat. slow down attack at the middle. sandwich attack with the zealots from the new main. game over As you can see on Jade they all used somewhat the same strategy to beat the terran ball: abuse the first and the second high ground that terran has to climb. So these frontal attacks on this map are probably the best choice. On FS, i'm not sure about that. Right outside the choke, its a good place to trade zealots for tanks but recalls still seem a better option there. | ||
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