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FakeDeath
Profile Joined January 2011
Malaysia6060 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 04:40:50
June 27 2013 04:40 GMT
#3721
On June 27 2013 04:36 theking1 wrote:
I think microsoft really gained ground by dropping those unpopular features.i know a lot of people are still upset but you gotta remember that the main target of microsoft is generally not reading tech blogs on the internet and generally buy xbox simply because it is cool/a social statement etc.Also the games for the xbox are expected to be good so in the long run I expect xbox one to do much better than expected.At this moment in time both consoles look good.No clear advantage for any of them.


No.
There is a very clear advantage for Sony PS4.

$399 for a hardware that is pretty much the same in terms of hardware(but still more powerful than XBONE) as the XBONE is nice.

The fact the big difference is the lack of camera on PS4 which I can still buy if I want for 60 dollars and it still be 40 dollars less than a XBONE with its camera is nice.

The fact I can get ps+ which gives A LOT MORE than xbl live does, for less is nice also.

But in the end it comes down to consumer rights.
Microsoft slammed it's consumer with all these DRM stuff and said " deal with it " on the spent weeks pre-E3/post-E3 arguing with consumers as to why they should deal with it, then flip flopped not for the sake of the customer but to get better sales. The fact they put even something simple as netflix behind a paywall and dozens of other reasons why I wont support MS. I wont support them for their terrible lack of respect for the very people who keep them in business.

I also won't support a company that treats its customers like walking wallets and nothing else. If Sony did the same thing as MS and MS was the company to give its customers options and showed that they mattered then I would have pre ordered a XBONE instead of a PS4.

If a company does things that don't make me feel like a valued customer then I dont give them money, regardless of who they are.

People still supporting Microsoft policy still boggles my mind.
Play your best
BoZiffer
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1841 Posts
June 27 2013 04:58 GMT
#3722
On June 27 2013 13:40 FakeDeath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2013 04:36 theking1 wrote:
I think microsoft really gained ground by dropping those unpopular features.i know a lot of people are still upset but you gotta remember that the main target of microsoft is generally not reading tech blogs on the internet and generally buy xbox simply because it is cool/a social statement etc.Also the games for the xbox are expected to be good so in the long run I expect xbox one to do much better than expected.At this moment in time both consoles look good.No clear advantage for any of them.


No.
There is a very clear advantage for Sony PS4.

$399 for a hardware that is pretty much the same in terms of hardware(but still more powerful than XBONE) as the XBONE is nice.

The fact the big difference is the lack of camera on PS4 which I can still buy if I want for 60 dollars and it still be 40 dollars less than a XBONE with its camera is nice.

The fact I can get ps+ which gives A LOT MORE than xbl live does, for less is nice also.

But in the end it comes down to consumer rights.
Microsoft slammed it's consumer with all these DRM stuff and said " deal with it " on the spent weeks pre-E3/post-E3 arguing with consumers as to why they should deal with it, then flip flopped not for the sake of the customer but to get better sales. The fact they put even something simple as netflix behind a paywall and dozens of other reasons why I wont support MS. I wont support them for their terrible lack of respect for the very people who keep them in business.

I also won't support a company that treats its customers like walking wallets and nothing else. If Sony did the same thing as MS and MS was the company to give its customers options and showed that they mattered then I would have pre ordered a XBONE instead of a PS4.

If a company does things that don't make me feel like a valued customer then I dont give them money, regardless of who they are.

People still supporting Microsoft policy still boggles my mind.


Not talking about policy at all here but the PS4 Eye/camera is no where near the device that Kinect is. Also, CNET pointed out today that because the Eye isn't a mandatory bundle item, they feel that it will be underdeveloped same as the last one, because there isn't a guaranteed usage so many will forgo spending any time developing for it. The one saving grace is that Third Party will be the place that will utilize it so PS with its developer friendly environment may make up for that shortcoming by the bigger studios.

The CNET article if anyone cares to read: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10797_3-57591231-235/sony-reportedly-nixed-ps4-eye-bundle-at-11th-hour-to-cut-price/
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
June 27 2013 05:00 GMT
#3723
On June 27 2013 06:35 BoZiffer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2013 21:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On June 26 2013 21:40 17Sphynx17 wrote:
On June 26 2013 21:08 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I still don't understand how Kinect will make gaming better for me. I can appreciate how it can make for cool UI navigation, but beyond that?

Cool tech demo though.


I think that is also the point. What games could be developed that works well with a Kinect interface. We don't know yet and that direction is still open for development. True that most gamers at this time prefer controllers or mouse and keyboard. But this kinect interface may break ground for a new acceptable standard of gaming controls. Who knows.

This one appears more superior to the 1st gen kinect so maybe that increased accuracy in detection would make developers less hesitant to make it a proper interaction with their games.

If not, at least, someone will try.

I can see potential for things like DDR, exercise games, and stuff like that. I don't see it working well with traditional games though.


In home golf simulators... I'm telling you. With the way that they can now capture weight shifts and force applications, a real simulator that I can use my own set of clubs to practice in the offseason would be the best thing since sliced bread...but I am in the minority I think here.

There probably arent many people with the living room space and ceiling height to support indoor golf using real golf clubs. That would be awesome though... not sure how well it'd work.
BoZiffer
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1841 Posts
June 27 2013 05:05 GMT
#3724
On June 27 2013 14:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2013 06:35 BoZiffer wrote:
On June 26 2013 21:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On June 26 2013 21:40 17Sphynx17 wrote:
On June 26 2013 21:08 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I still don't understand how Kinect will make gaming better for me. I can appreciate how it can make for cool UI navigation, but beyond that?

Cool tech demo though.


I think that is also the point. What games could be developed that works well with a Kinect interface. We don't know yet and that direction is still open for development. True that most gamers at this time prefer controllers or mouse and keyboard. But this kinect interface may break ground for a new acceptable standard of gaming controls. Who knows.

This one appears more superior to the 1st gen kinect so maybe that increased accuracy in detection would make developers less hesitant to make it a proper interaction with their games.

If not, at least, someone will try.

I can see potential for things like DDR, exercise games, and stuff like that. I don't see it working well with traditional games though.


In home golf simulators... I'm telling you. With the way that they can now capture weight shifts and force applications, a real simulator that I can use my own set of clubs to practice in the offseason would be the best thing since sliced bread...but I am in the minority I think here.

There probably arent many people with the living room space and ceiling height to support indoor golf using real golf clubs. That would be awesome though... not sure how well it'd work.


Yeah, that was purely my wish for it. It would be so great though.
ShAdZ_ZX
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia635 Posts
June 27 2013 05:10 GMT
#3725
On June 27 2013 13:40 FakeDeath wrote:
not for the sake of the customer but to get better sales.


Guess what. Every decision a every company makes is ultimately to get better sales. Sony is no different, despite the picture that the gaming community has painted.

I'll be getting the X1 for several reasons:

1. The retail price difference is only $50~ in favour of the PS4 in Australia
2. 360 Controller (and X1 controller if appearances are any indication) is leagues ahead of the Dual Shock 3. Its always felt too light and too small in my hands.
3. X1 exclusives that have been announced so far are more appealing to me than PS4's (but only just)
4. Hardware difference appears to be minimal
5. Kinect 2.0 actually looks like it has potential, though its still not really a selling point. But some of the technology looks neat.
6. I've owned both current gen consoles and I've always preferred the 360 as my ideal gaming console (PS3 mainly used for Bluray + Exclusives)
7. I enjoy using the Achievement system as a way of tracking my progress, and I want to continue adding to that in the next gen of consoles.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 14:22:42
June 27 2013 13:47 GMT
#3726
I've had more time to reflect on Xbox One and the future of gaming in general. I've come to the conclusion that opponents of Microsoft's original policies are retrogressive, hypocritical or moronic. And Microsoft's flip-flop was cowardly and shameful. I'm objective and unbiased in the sense that I've never personally bought a console. Let's go through some of the arguments.

1. “DRM!!”
Firstly, complaints that the 24 hour internet check-in amounts to a restrictive form of DRM is utter nonsense. Most people have access to internet. You don't even need good internet to perform such a check-in, it could be done on a 56K modem connection. But the main point is that by this sort of reasoning everything is DRM. Requiring a disc in the drive is DRM. This particularly annoying form of DRM was used in PC gaming decades ago and has since been done away with. Yet it's somehow acceptable that this archaic, ancient DRM mechanism survives into the next generation of consoles? Xbox One would have got rid of this, but now it's back.

Indeed, WoW is DRM. You can't play WoW offline. DRM! Twitter is DRM. You can't tweet without access to the internet. DRM! Oh, but some people have argued that WoW is a MMO, as if that semantic argument relieves WoW of being DRM. Being online is intrinsic to WoW and Twitter, whereas it is not necessary for Xbox One to have a 24 hour check-in, so the argument goes, therefore, the online requirement of WoW and Twitter is not DRM. But this is completely wrong. The online requirement for WoW is just as much of a free choice by Blizzard as the 24 hours check-in is by Microsoft. Blizzard didn't have to make WoW an online game. They could have put in an offline mode, making the game more like Skyrim. It's also not necessary that Twitter requires the internet. It could have used the cell phone system, like SMS. By this sort of flaky logic, WoW and Twitter are DRM, just like Xbox One, and therefore should be boycotted, and internet rage should be directed by internet users on Blizzard and Twitter for requiring an internet connection to use their service. The second part of the argument is also wrong--Xbox One does necessarily require a 24 hour check-in. It is necessary. Without it, it would be possible to have your friend login with his account on your Xbox One, then download all his games on your console so that you have access to them forever. It would also be possible to resell a physical game, but still play the game by staying offline so the console does not know that you've sold the game.

2. “DRM for PC is OK, DRM for Xbox One is Not”
Those who argue that DRM for PC gaming and Steam is OK, but that it's not OK for Xbox One, are valueless hypocrites. These failed arguments are made, for example, in this imbecilic rant from The Escapist and this screed of fallacious arguments from Eurogamer. The argument essentially boils down to DRM is OK on Steam because Steam has sales, but it's not OK on Xbox One, because Xbox Live doesn't have sales.

If you're against Xbox One for DRM, yet subscribe to this argument, you're a sellout. You're selling out your anti-DRM values for cheaper games. No one has been able to articulate why digital games, such as those on Steam, should have DRM, whereas physical games, like discs, should not have DRM. Why is it OK that a digital game cannot be resold, but it's not OK if a physical game cannot be resold? As you rail against Microsoft's rather weak DRM, why don't you complain about Steam's DRM? Because Steam has cheap games? This is a non-sequitar. If you're against DRM, the fact that Steam has cheap games does not imply that Steam's DRM should skate past without scrutiny. Why not take Steam's cheap games and still boycott and rage against Valve for their oppressive and draconian policies that outright stops you from reselling games and sharing games? Is it because you're scared that without such DRM policies that Steam games wouldn’t be so cheap? Unless you're harshly criticizing Valve, which no one in these arguments is, for their outrageously restrictive DRM policies, you're a massive hypocrite selling out your values.

Then we turn to the question of why games are cheaper on Steam. The most common argument is that there is competition on PC because of platforms like Steam, Origin, Greenman Gaming, and GOG (which sells mostly old games that no one cares about anymore), whereas there's no competition on consoles. Xbox Live is the only way to get digital games on Xbox. But this is completely wrong for at least three reasons.

Firstly, publishers, not Microsoft, set prices. They set the price on Steam, Origin, Amazon, Xbox Live, PSN, etc. And publishers do not have a monopoly. Publishers compete with each other. So it makes no sense to say that Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox Live and that's why prices are high. Microsoft doesn't set prices on Xbox Live. When Microsoft announced the price of first-party Xbox One games, why do you think they didn’t announce the price of third-party Xbox One games too? Because they have nothing to do with those prices.

Secondly, why doesn't this argument imply that game prices are high on all platforms? Prices on Xbox Live are high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Xbox. Then prices on Steam should be high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Steam. Prices on the Blizzard store should be high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Battle.net. Share prices of UK companies should be high because the only place you can buy them is at the London Stock Exchange. The argument simply makes no sense.

Thirdly, the premise that prices are high on Xbox Live because that's the only place to get Xbox games is simply not true. You can buy Xbox games on Amazon, at Gamestop, on Ebay, and various other outlets. So there is competition between sellers of Xbox games. The same is true of PS games. But then why hasn't this competition driven down the prices of console games to the levels of PC games. Due to being distracted by the faulty premise to their arguments, no one has convincingly answered this fundamental question. Why is it that console games cannot be as cheap as PC games?

The haters wouldn’t dare say it's because PC games cannot be resold. Admitting that would be just too much hypocrisy: believing that DRM is bad, but it's good if games are cheap, but games can't possibly be cheap because of DRM. A recent paper agrees with my arguments by showing that customers are currently willing to pay higher prices for console games because they know they can recover part of that cost later by resale, and that killing resale would mean they are not willing to pay as high of a price. The conclusion of the study is that killing resale but leaving prices unchanged will reduce profits by 10%. But killing resale and lowering prices by 33% will increase profits by 18%, and this is the profit-maximizing price. In other words, killing resale is a win-win, consumers pay lower prices and game makers get higher profit. So who loses? The resellers.

But then why are Xbox One games $60? But why are AAA new releases on Steam almost always charged at full recommended retail price, which is usually $60? Because people who buy games at release are fans that are willing to pay a higher price. But like Steam, prices on Xbox One would have likely dropped faster as a result of DRM. Games which aren’t AAA would likely have been cheaper. However, they wouldn’t be as cheap as Steam, because Xbox One’s restrictions, contrary to the exaggerated complaints, was rather mild compared to Steam’s draconian DRM policies which so many people hypocritically give a free pass to. One of the mistakes of Xbox One was not supporting backward compatibility. Just like Steam, that would have allowed publishers to sell new games at full price in almost all situations, and old games at significantly cheaper prices. Regardless, you can now continue to enjoy overpriced console games courtesy of your misguided outrage.

3. The Retrogressive and Primitive Console Market
The console market is overpriced compared to the PC market. But that's not all, it lags basically on every dimension. In fact, one could be forgiven for mistaking today's console market for the PC market a decade ago.

Whereas PC games can no longer be resold, it is still possible to resell console games. The result of Microsoft’s recent u-turn to put no restriction on resale is to prop up the current inefficient status quo. A status quo where a sizable proportion of the money that gamers spend goes to leeches like Gamestop and EB, businesses that are unnecessary and add little to no value to the product, instead of going to developers. These are businesses that deserve nothing.

Consoles have failed to embrace digital distribution. Consoles still require a disc to be in the drive, an antiquated artifact from PC gaming, which is no longer necessary due to games being linked to online accounts. These online accounts are ubiquitous in PC gaming, for example on Battle.net and Steam. Online accounts grants you access to your game library on any computer, allows you to always download your games, allows for quicker updates, automatically saves your progress on the server, reduces the incidence of hacking local saves, improves anti-cheat capabilities, reduces smurfing, increases accountability, enables an array of social features such as achievements that can be verified by a server and cross-game chat. Yet the convenience of online accounts is in its infancy on consoles. In 2013, on the console version of Diablo 3, one way of playing at your friend’s house is to tug your character around on a USB and check that you saved. These are the sort of ancient techniques that were used to play your Diablo 2 single player character at your friend’s house in 2000. But in 2012, on the PC version of Diablo 3, this sort of manual labor is not necessary because all characters are saved on the Battle.net servers. It’s also not possible, thereby preventing cheaters from hacking their characters using a trainer. This is just one illustration of how console games are still decades behind the times.

Another is disc-based games, which are essentially dead on PC. But on consoles, they survive. These are games without the convenience of being linked to an online account and all the above-listed benefits that brings, and comes with the cumbersome need to screw around with inserting, ejecting, switching and storing discs. Discs are obsolete. Stuffing about with discs is a tedious exercise that is simply unnecessary in PC gaming. Moreover, clinging to this outdated relic, as opposed to going 100% digital distribution, leads to a pointless and unnecessary increase in production costs that either needlessly increases developer’s expenses or leads to higher prices for consumers. Discs are an anathema. Consoles need to get over discs. PC already has.

Yet another way in which consoles resemble PCs a decade ago, is in how slow they’ve been in embracing online gaming. Just as the PC pioneered the digital distribution of games, it also pioneered online play with the original Battle.net. The fact that so many games on console are single player, as opposed to PC, is one reason why the longevity of console games are short, which contributes to the resale problem. The most popular games on PC, such as WoW, LoL, SC2, Dota 2, Counter-Strike, Diablo 3 have one thing in common. They are all online games. And yet we have people, on these forums, the forum of an online PC game, arguing that they cannot handle a 24 hour internet check-in or that they cannot effectively download games via the internet. Sometimes, it is pointed out that other groups, often the military, in an attempt to engender sympathy, are being screwed over. But the war in Iraq is over and the war in Afghanistan is ending in 2014, only a short time after the release of the Xbox One. So get over it or get a PS4, because the benefits of online play are numerous and the console market should not be designed as if the entire world is without internet. Single player games have their place. They are an excellent medium for compelling storytelling. But online games have more longevity. The melodramatic whining about online requirements is pathetic and exaggerated. If you have a problem with online requirements and online games, what the hell are you doing on this forum? The sooner consoles realize, as the PC has a decade ago, that online games are the future, the better all our gaming experiences will be, and the more value for money we get out of buying video games.

Now that we've established that the current console market is essentially the PC market stuck in the past decade, it should be clear the primary challenge for next-generation consoles is to move towards the future--to fix this primitive and outdated mode of playing video games. While Sony has no innovations to move forward, Microsoft originally presented a visionary future for the console market, but thanks to the loud outrage of a regressive, short-sighted, entitled and hypocritical mob on the internet, Microsoft caved, and the console market will remain as outdated trash.

PC gaming eventually got over this phase, to emerge more efficient, cheaper and better for gamers, but console gamers will continue to remain stuck in the past a while longer. The goal is to move the console market to what the PC market is.

4. What Should the Future of Gaming Look Like?
The current situation is analogous to the healthcare debate in the US. The status quo (current console market) is terrible and overpriced. Yet everyone raged and hated on Obamacare (Xbox One policies) despite the fact it would help address these massive problems. People were absolutely opposed to change even though the current system was completely screwed up, because they were scared that their freedom was being taken away, despite the fact that universal healthcare in other countries (PC games) are models of proven success that could be emulated. Obamacare (Xbox One policies) was an imperfect compromise that would move us to a better future with more efficient, cheaper and better healthcare (console games).

So what should the future of gaming, both for PC and console look like? I would like to hear what you have to say, but here's my answer to this question:

-No discs: Kill the disc. They are no longer necessary. Go with 100% digital distribution. Despite the drama, this will not be a problem, millions of people seem to be fine with downloading games on Steam currently or playing online games on PC. This includes predownloads. End this unneeded cost.

-No resale: Like PC, no more reselling used games. As PC has shown and as the previously cited paper finds, this will lower the amount consumers are willing to pay for games, as they can no longer make money back by resale, which will lead to lower prices through competition between publishers.

-Game sharing limited to machine and spawn versions: Microsoft’s original sharing plan that allowed up to 10 people to access your game library was flawed since it partly undoes the effect of the resale restrictions that would have led to lower prices. The right balance is to allow sharing games to the extent that it is quite likely that other people would not have bought the game anyway. So it should be possible to share games with anyone playing on your console or computer, even if they are signed in their account, since families under the same roof tend to only buy one copy of a game. This would mean that each account would be associated to a console or computer on which other people can play their game library, but you can still play your own games on any console or computer. Sharing accounts should be absolutely discouraged, as it may increase the incidence of account compromises. Moreover, it should be possible to spawn the game, allowing you to play full multiplayer with party members who do not own the game, possibly with some restrictions like up to 50 hours of total game time. This is different from demos, which is usually a restricted subset of the game. With an online account system, traditional demos could be widely and easily made available to everyone.

-Major emphasis on online games, online accounts and social networks: Similar to PC, games on the same platform should always be tied to an online account. There is no outrage about Battle.net accounts or Steam accounts, yet when Microsoft proposes this, it’s suddenly a scandal. Having one unified online account greatly increases convenience and complements going 100% digital distribution and killing discs. It also provides a single identity that can be used as a basis for a social network for games, with social features for everyone, like chat channels, forums, cross-game chat, groups, sharing videos, streams and screenshots. It is a prerequisite to having one unified community. Compare the ease and simplicity of everyone playing SC2 using B.net with the coordination problems of SC1 where some played on pirate servers, some played via LAN, some played via Hamachi, some only played offline, some played on Battle.net, some played on ICCUP, and so on. Online accounts allows for all the other benefits previously listed. There should be a greatly increased emphasis on online play and online games which are the most popular on PC and have the greatest longevity. This should be accompanied with more investment in server infrastructure, as Microsoft is currently doing. Titanfall being online only is a move in the right direction, and the future of gaming should consist of more online games. Being online also allows for massive datasets to be gathered about play patterns, which helps developers improve game design. For example, many changes in WoW are based on data. When to nerf raid bosses sometimes depends on statistics about how often guilds are getting brick-walled. Finally, I have no problem with an always online requirement in order to enforce one unified community as Blizzard does, although others may disagree with this for single player games.

-More expansions, less DLC: There should be less DLC and more expansions. This is what we see in the PC market. It’s unfortunate that there is still so much DLC on PC, but the problem is much worse on consoles, where developers also use them as part of a desperate attempt to extend the life of games and to reduce resale. DLC are a massive ripoff. Preorder bonuses are completely ridiculous in both ripping people off and wasting developer resources on making content that is arbitrarily restricted by the physical store you preorder at, for absolutely no justifiable reason. Also, while not caused by used games, microtransactions have ruined the MMO genre and many other games, allowing those with more money to buy much greater conveniences and even power increases.

-No region locking: Region locking is an anti-consumer practice done to charge different prices to different regions based on how much people in various countries are willing to pay. For example, things are more expensive in Australia than the US because disposable income and the median wage is higher in Australia than the US. The only positive thing to come out of the Microsoft backlash is to kill region locking for Xbox One.

5. Transitioning to a Better Future for Gaming
This is the glorious future that consoles could have had. PC gaming currently is almost there. But now it’s been derailed by mad idiots on the internet, Microsoft’s spinelessness, and Sony’s utter lack of imagination and vision. PC gaming has paved the way forward, and yet the solution of the mob of Microsoft haters is to ignore this fact. And then to rage at Microsoft so that console prices can remain forever overpriced, physical stores like Gamestop and EB can continue to be parasites on the industry, the console market can remain stuck in the past, and the horribly inefficient status quo can be maintained. They have no solution and no vision, just illogical rants and fallacious arguments.

No, Sony is not the messiah. They’re an unscrupulous, opportunistic and incompetent corporation. In 2011, Sony was hacked, resulting in the personal details of 70 million user’s being compromised and PSN being down for almost a month. Embarrassingly, the intrusion was pulled off by an SQL injection attack, arguably the most elementary and simplistic hack in the book. Between 2005 and 2007, Sony secretly installed rootkits on their customer’s computers. Intended as DRM, this rootkit was exceedingly hard to remove and created gaping security vulnerabilities. After this had been exposed, Sony released a program which they claimed would remove the rootkit, but it didn’t remove it, it installed additional malware, collected personal information and created even more security vulnerabilities. So contrary to attempts to paint Sony as anti-DRM heroes, they were responsible for the most pernicious, evil, outrageous, deceptive, insidious, invasive and illegal form of DRM ever known. And we can add “defender of the terrible console market status quo” to the list of Sony’s infamous achievements.

We need to drag this console market into the future that PC has achieved. And for all the flaws and compromises Xbox One originally had, it was moving in the right direction, while PS4 was planted firmly in the past. People have the bandwidth to download games on Steam, to play online games like WoW and LoL. The world is ready for the online future. And if you’re not, you have a choice: go buy a worthless PS4. The problem now is that there is no longer a choice for a forward-looking console. You might think you’ve won, but Gamestop has won. You’ve lost and ultimately Microsoft’s flip-flop will hurt gamers by perpetuating this shitty system.

You've successfully delayed the inevitable.
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 14:20:15
June 27 2013 14:11 GMT
#3727
Family sharing only allowed you to share a demo of the game you wanted to share: http://kotaku.com/rumor-about-xbox-one-family-sharings-downsides-has-fla-534484570

There was literally no reason for a 24 /7 online connection to be required, and Microsoft just took their toys alongside the downsides that were complained about to give gamers a reason to turn against each others. Xbox 180 fans are doing gamers at large a disservice for being so ingrained in the console fight that they can't even see that all the features they are saying "the outcry took out" was actually something Microsoft took out.

The only reason Steam gets away with it is because the PC gamers who rely on it are immature and the more mature people have not had the political power to demand outright that digital copies should retain their physical rights like games made at GOG and games made through Kickstarter already do. It is a new media, there are hardly any rules, and we will have our digital revolution in due time. Just not right now.

When the government asked the auto industry to make cleaner fuels there was an outcry that it just would not be able to adapt. If digital retained their physical rights. That same outcry would happen, but it is a baseless outcry. Because industries always adapt or they die. In which case the death is not unreasonable nor something to cry over.
"Mudkip"
DaMuffinman
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1705 Posts
June 27 2013 14:51 GMT
#3728
On June 27 2013 22:47 paralleluniverse wrote:
'+ Show Spoiler +
ve had more time to reflect on Xbox One and the future of gaming in general. I've come to the conclusion that opponents of Microsoft's original policies are retrogressive, hypocritical or moronic. And Microsoft's flip-flop was cowardly and shameful. I'm objective and unbiased in the sense that I've never personally bought a console. Let's go through some of the arguments.

1. “DRM!!”
Firstly, complaints that the 24 hour internet check-in amounts to a restrictive form of DRM is utter nonsense. Most people have access to internet. You don't even need good internet to perform such a check-in, it could be done on a 56K modem connection. But the main point is that by this sort of reasoning everything is DRM. Requiring a disc in the drive is DRM. This particularly annoying form of DRM was used in PC gaming decades ago and has since been done away with. Yet it's somehow acceptable that this archaic, ancient DRM mechanism survives into the next generation of consoles? Xbox One would have got rid of this, but now it's back.

Indeed, WoW is DRM. You can't play WoW offline. DRM! Twitter is DRM. You can't tweet without access to the internet. DRM! Oh, but some people have argued that WoW is a MMO, as if that semantic argument relieves WoW of being DRM. Being online is intrinsic to WoW and Twitter, whereas it is not necessary for Xbox One to have a 24 hour check-in, so the argument goes, therefore, the online requirement of WoW and Twitter is not DRM. But this is completely wrong. The online requirement for WoW is just as much of a free choice by Blizzard as the 24 hours check-in is by Microsoft. Blizzard didn't have to make WoW an online game. They could have put in an offline mode, making the game more like Skyrim. It's also not necessary that Twitter requires the internet. It could have used the cell phone system, like SMS. By this sort of flaky logic, WoW and Twitter are DRM, just like Xbox One, and therefore should be boycotted, and internet rage should be directed by internet users on Blizzard and Twitter for requiring an internet connection to use their service. The second part of the argument is also wrong--Xbox One does necessarily require a 24 hour check-in. It is necessary. Without it, it would be possible to have your friend login with his account on your Xbox One, then download all his games on your console so that you have access to them forever. It would also be possible to resell a physical game, but still play the game by staying offline so the console does not know that you've sold the game.

2. “DRM for PC is OK, DRM for Xbox One is Not”
Those who argue that DRM for PC gaming and Steam is OK, but that it's not OK for Xbox One, are valueless hypocrites. These failed arguments are made, for example, in this imbecilic rant from The Escapist and this screed of fallacious arguments from Eurogamer. The argument essentially boils down to DRM is OK on Steam because Steam has sales, but it's not OK on Xbox One, because Xbox Live doesn't have sales.

If you're against Xbox One for DRM, yet subscribe to this argument, you're a sellout. You're selling out your anti-DRM values for cheaper games. No one has been able to articulate why digital games, such as those on Steam, should have DRM, whereas physical games, like discs, should not have DRM. Why is it OK that a digital game cannot be resold, but it's not OK if a physical game cannot be resold? As you rail against Microsoft's rather weak DRM, why don't you complain about Steam's DRM? Because Steam has cheap games? This is a non-sequitar. If you're against DRM, the fact that Steam has cheap games does not imply that Steam's DRM should skate past without scrutiny. Why not take Steam's cheap games and still boycott and rage against Valve for their oppressive and draconian policies that outright stops you from reselling games and sharing games? Is it because you're scared that without such DRM policies that Steam games wouldn’t be so cheap? Unless you're harshly criticizing Valve, which no one in these arguments is, for their outrageously restrictive DRM policies, you're a massive hypocrite selling out your values.

Then we turn to the question of why games are cheaper on Steam. The most common argument is that there is competition on PC because of platforms like Steam, Origin, Greenman Gaming, and GOG (which sells mostly old games that no one cares about anymore), whereas there's no competition on consoles. Xbox Live is the only way to get digital games on Xbox. But this is completely wrong for at least three reasons.

Firstly, publishers, not Microsoft, set prices. They set the price on Steam, Origin, Amazon, Xbox Live, PSN, etc. And publishers do not have a monopoly. Publishers compete with each other. So it makes no sense to say that Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox Live and that's why prices are high. Microsoft doesn't set prices on Xbox Live. When Microsoft announced the price of first-party Xbox One games, why do you think they didn’t announce the price of third-party Xbox One games too? Because they have nothing to do with those prices.

Secondly, why doesn't this argument imply that game prices are high on all platforms? Prices on Xbox Live are high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Xbox. Then prices on Steam should be high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Steam. Prices on the Blizzard store should be high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Battle.net. Share prices of UK companies should be high because the only place you can buy them is at the London Stock Exchange. The argument simply makes no sense.

Thirdly, the premise that prices are high on Xbox Live because that's the only place to get Xbox games is simply not true. You can buy Xbox games on Amazon, at Gamestop, on Ebay, and various other outlets. So there is competition between sellers of Xbox games. The same is true of PS games. But then why hasn't this competition driven down the prices of console games to the levels of PC games. Due to being distracted by the faulty premise to their arguments, no one has convincingly answered this fundamental question. Why is it that console games cannot be as cheap as PC games?

The haters wouldn’t dare say it's because PC games cannot be resold. Admitting that would be just too much hypocrisy: believing that DRM is bad, but it's good if games are cheap, but games can't possibly be cheap because of DRM. A recent paper agrees with my arguments by showing that customers are currently willing to pay higher prices for console games because they know they can recover part of that cost later by resale, and that killing resale would mean they are not willing to pay as high of a price. The conclusion of the study is that killing resale but leaving prices unchanged will reduce profits by 10%. But killing resale and lowering prices by 33% will increase profits by 18%, and this is the profit-maximizing price. In other words, killing resale is a win-win, consumers pay lower prices and game makers get higher profit. So who loses? The resellers.

But then why are Xbox One games $60? But why are AAA new releases on Steam almost always charged at full recommended retail price, which is usually $60? Because people who buy games at release are fans that are willing to pay a higher price. But like Steam, prices on Xbox One would have likely dropped faster as a result of DRM. Games which aren’t AAA would likely have been cheaper. However, they wouldn’t be as cheap as Steam, because Xbox One’s restrictions, contrary to the exaggerated complaints, was rather mild compared to Steam’s draconian DRM policies which so many people hypocritically give a free pass to. One of the mistakes of Xbox One was not supporting backward compatibility. Just like Steam, that would have allowed publishers to sell new games at full price in almost all situations, and old games at significantly cheaper prices. Regardless, you can now continue to enjoy overpriced console games courtesy of your misguided outrage.

3. The Retrogressive and Primitive Console Market
The console market is overpriced compared to the PC market. But that's not all, it lags basically on every dimension. In fact, one could be forgiven for mistaking today's console market for the PC market a decade ago.

Whereas PC games can no longer be resold, it is still possible to resell console games. The result of Microsoft’s recent u-turn to put no restriction on resale is to prop up the current inefficient status quo. A status quo where a sizable proportion of the money that gamers spend goes to leeches like Gamestop and EB, businesses that are unnecessary and add little to no value to the product, instead of going to developers. These are businesses that deserve nothing.

Consoles have failed to embrace digital distribution. Consoles still require a disc to be in the drive, an antiquated artifact from PC gaming, which is no longer necessary due to games being linked to online accounts. These online accounts are ubiquitous in PC gaming, for example on Battle.net and Steam. Online accounts grants you access to your game library on any computer, allows you to always download your games, allows for quicker updates, automatically saves your progress on the server, reduces the incidence of hacking local saves, improves anti-cheat capabilities, reduces smurfing, increases accountability, enables an array of social features such as achievements that can be verified by a server and cross-game chat. Yet the convenience of online accounts is in its infancy on consoles. In 2013, on the console version of Diablo 3, one way of playing at your friend’s house is to tug your character around on a USB and check that you saved. These are the sort of ancient techniques that were used to play your Diablo 2 single player character at your friend’s house in 2000. But in 2012, on the PC version of Diablo 3, this sort of manual labor is not necessary because all characters are saved on the Battle.net servers. It’s also not possible, thereby preventing cheaters from hacking their characters using a trainer. This is just one illustration of how console games are still decades behind the times.

Another is disc-based games, which are essentially dead on PC. But on consoles, they survive. These are games without the convenience of being linked to an online account and all the above-listed benefits that brings, and comes with the cumbersome need to screw around with inserting, ejecting, switching and storing discs. Discs are obsolete. Stuffing about with discs is a tedious exercise that is simply unnecessary in PC gaming. Moreover, clinging to this outdated relic, as opposed to going 100% digital distribution, leads to a pointless and unnecessary increase in production costs that either needlessly increases developer’s expenses or leads to higher prices for consumers. Discs are an anathema. Consoles need to get over discs. PC already has.

Yet another way in which consoles resemble PCs a decade ago, is in how slow they’ve been in embracing online gaming. Just as the PC pioneered the digital distribution of games, it also pioneered online play with the original Battle.net. The fact that so many games on console are single player, as opposed to PC, is one reason why the longevity of console games are short, which contributes to the resale problem. The most popular games on PC, such as WoW, LoL, SC2, Dota 2, Counter-Strike, Diablo 3 have one thing in common. They are all online games. And yet we have people, on these forums, the forum of an online PC game, arguing that they cannot handle a 24 hour internet check-in or that they cannot effectively download games via the internet. Sometimes, it is pointed out that other groups, often the military, in an attempt to engender sympathy, are being screwed over. But the war in Iraq is over and the war in Afghanistan is ending in 2014, only a short time after the release of the Xbox One. So get over it or get a PS4, because the benefits of online play are numerous and the console market should not be designed as if the entire world is without internet. Single player games have their place. They are an excellent medium for compelling storytelling. But online games have more longevity. The melodramatic whining about online requirements is pathetic and exaggerated. If you have a problem with online requirements and online games, what the hell are you doing on this forum? The sooner consoles realize, as the PC has a decade ago, that online games are the future, the better all our gaming experiences will be, and the more value for money we get out of buying video games.

Now that we've established that the current console market is essentially the PC market stuck in the past decade, it should be clear the primary challenge for next-generation consoles is to move towards the future--to fix this primitive and outdated mode of playing video games. While Sony has no innovations to move forward, Microsoft originally presented a visionary future for the console market, but thanks to the loud outrage of a regressive, short-sighted, entitled and hypocritical mob on the internet, Microsoft caved, and the console market will remain as outdated trash.

PC gaming eventually got over this phase, to emerge more efficient, cheaper and better for gamers, but console gamers will continue to remain stuck in the past a while longer. The goal is to move the console market to what the PC market is.

4. What Should the Future of Gaming Look Like?
The current situation is analogous to the healthcare debate in the US. The status quo (current console market) is terrible and overpriced. Yet everyone raged and hated on Obamacare (Xbox One policies) despite the fact it would help address these massive problems. People were absolutely opposed to change even though the current system was completely screwed up, because they were scared that their freedom was being taken away, despite the fact that universal healthcare in other countries (PC games) are models of proven success that could be emulated. Obamacare (Xbox One policies) was an imperfect compromise that would move us to a better future with more efficient, cheaper and better healthcare (console games).

So what should the future of gaming, both for PC and console look like? I would like to hear what you have to say, but here's my answer to this question:

-No discs: Kill the disc. They are no longer necessary. Go with 100% digital distribution. Despite the drama, this will not be a problem, millions of people seem to be fine with downloading games on Steam currently or playing online games on PC. This includes predownloads. End this unneeded cost.

-No resale: Like PC, no more reselling used games. As PC has shown and as the previously cited paper finds, this will lower the amount consumers are willing to pay for games, as they can no longer make money back by resale, which will lead to lower prices through competition between publishers.

-Game sharing limited to machine and spawn versions: Microsoft’s original sharing plan that allowed up to 10 people to access your game library was flawed since it partly undoes the effect of the resale restrictions that would have led to lower prices. The right balance is to allow sharing games to the extent that it is quite likely that other people would not have bought the game anyway. So it should be possible to share games with anyone playing on your console or computer, even if they are signed in their account, since families under the same roof tend to only buy one copy of a game. This would mean that each account would be associated to a console or computer on which other people can play their game library, but you can still play your own games on any console or computer. Sharing accounts should be absolutely discouraged, as it may increase the incidence of account compromises. Moreover, it should be possible to spawn the game, allowing you to play full multiplayer with party members who do not own the game, possibly with some restrictions like up to 50 hours of total game time. This is different from demos, which is usually a restricted subset of the game. With an online account system, traditional demos could be widely and easily made available to everyone.

-Major emphasis on online games, online accounts and social networks: Similar to PC, games on the same platform should always be tied to an online account. There is no outrage about Battle.net accounts or Steam accounts, yet when Microsoft proposes this, it’s suddenly a scandal. Having one unified online account greatly increases convenience and complements going 100% digital distribution and killing discs. It also provides a single identity that can be used as a basis for a social network for games, with social features for everyone, like chat channels, forums, cross-game chat, groups, sharing videos, streams and screenshots. It is a prerequisite to having one unified community. Compare the ease and simplicity of everyone playing SC2 using B.net with the coordination problems of SC1 where some played on pirate servers, some played via LAN, some played via Hamachi, some only played offline, some played on Battle.net, some played on ICCUP, and so on. Online accounts allows for all the other benefits previously listed. There should be a greatly increased emphasis on online play and online games which are the most popular on PC and have the greatest longevity. This should be accompanied with more investment in server infrastructure, as Microsoft is currently doing. Titanfall being online only is a move in the right direction, and the future of gaming should consist of more online games. Being online also allows for massive datasets to be gathered about play patterns, which helps developers improve game design. For example, many changes in WoW are based on data. When to nerf raid bosses sometimes depends on statistics about how often guilds are getting brick-walled. Finally, I have no problem with an always online requirement in order to enforce one unified community as Blizzard does, although others may disagree with this for single player games.

-More expansions, less DLC: There should be less DLC and more expansions. This is what we see in the PC market. It’s unfortunate that there is still so much DLC on PC, but the problem is much worse on consoles, where developers also use them as part of a desperate attempt to extend the life of games and to reduce resale. DLC are a massive ripoff. Preorder bonuses are completely ridiculous in both ripping people off and wasting developer resources on making content that is arbitrarily restricted by the physical store you preorder at, for absolutely no justifiable reason. Also, while not caused by used games, microtransactions have ruined the MMO genre and many other games, allowing those with more money to buy much greater conveniences and even power increases.

-No region locking: Region locking is an anti-consumer practice done to charge different prices to different regions based on how much people in various countries are willing to pay. For example, things are more expensive in Australia than the US because disposable income and the median wage is higher in Australia than the US. The only positive thing to come out of the Microsoft backlash is to kill region locking for Xbox One.

5. Transitioning to a Better Future for Gaming
This is the glorious future that consoles could have had. PC gaming currently is almost there. But now it’s been derailed by mad idiots on the internet, Microsoft’s spinelessness, and Sony’s utter lack of imagination and vision. PC gaming has paved the way forward, and yet the solution of the mob of Microsoft haters is to ignore this fact. And then to rage at Microsoft so that console prices can remain forever overpriced, physical stores like Gamestop and EB can continue to be parasites on the industry, the console market can remain stuck in the past, and the horribly inefficient status quo can be maintained. They have no solution and no vision, just illogical rants and fallacious arguments.

No, Sony is not the messiah. They’re an unscrupulous, opportunistic and incompetent corporation. In 2011, Sony was hacked, resulting in the personal details of 70 million user’s being compromised and PSN being down for almost a month. Embarrassingly, the intrusion was pulled off by an SQL injection attack, arguably the most elementary and simplistic hack in the book. Between 2005 and 2007, Sony secretly installed rootkits on their customer’s computers. Intended as DRM, this rootkit was exceedingly hard to remove and created gaping security vulnerabilities. After this had been exposed, Sony released a program which they claimed would remove the rootkit, but it didn’t remove it, it installed additional malware, collected personal information and created even more security vulnerabilities. So contrary to attempts to paint Sony as anti-DRM heroes, they were responsible for the most pernicious, evil, outrageous, deceptive, insidious, invasive and illegal form of DRM ever known. And we can add “defender of the terrible console market status quo” to the list of Sony’s infamous achievements.

We need to drag this console market into the future that PC has achieved. And for all the flaws and compromises Xbox One originally had, it was moving in the right direction, while PS4 was planted firmly in the past. People have the bandwidth to download games on Steam, to play online games like WoW and LoL. The world is ready for the online future. And if you’re not, you have a choice: go buy a worthless PS4. The problem now is that there is no longer a choice for a forward-looking console. You might think you’ve won, but Gamestop has won. You’ve lost and ultimately Microsoft’s flip-flop will hurt gamers by perpetuating this shitty system.

You've successfully delayed the inevitable.



You surely live in a parallel universe. Starting your post with insulting everyone, who saw flaws in MS plans is not the way to do it. And I had a good laugh at your Twitter/WoW argument.
But does it djent?
Hey Sean.
Profile Joined March 2012
United Kingdom196 Posts
June 27 2013 15:01 GMT
#3729
I can't believe someone took the time to write a post that long. I stopped about half way into the first proper paragraph.

WoW isn't DRM. It's an MMO. The O stands for online. A game like Final Fantasy 13 is an RPG. It's not an ORPG, I shouldn't have to be online at all.
FromShouri
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States862 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 15:07:53
June 27 2013 15:07 GMT
#3730
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 27 2013 22:47 paralleluniverse wrote:
I've had more time to reflect on Xbox One and the future of gaming in general. I've come to the conclusion that opponents of Microsoft's original policies are retrogressive, hypocritical or moronic. And Microsoft's flip-flop was cowardly and shameful. I'm objective and unbiased in the sense that I've never personally bought a console. Let's go through some of the arguments.

1. “DRM!!”
Firstly, complaints that the 24 hour internet check-in amounts to a restrictive form of DRM is utter nonsense. Most people have access to internet. You don't even need good internet to perform such a check-in, it could be done on a 56K modem connection. But the main point is that by this sort of reasoning everything is DRM. Requiring a disc in the drive is DRM. This particularly annoying form of DRM was used in PC gaming decades ago and has since been done away with. Yet it's somehow acceptable that this archaic, ancient DRM mechanism survives into the next generation of consoles? Xbox One would have got rid of this, but now it's back.

Indeed, WoW is DRM. You can't play WoW offline. DRM! Twitter is DRM. You can't tweet without access to the internet. DRM! Oh, but some people have argued that WoW is a MMO, as if that semantic argument relieves WoW of being DRM. Being online is intrinsic to WoW and Twitter, whereas it is not necessary for Xbox One to have a 24 hour check-in, so the argument goes, therefore, the online requirement of WoW and Twitter is not DRM. But this is completely wrong. The online requirement for WoW is just as much of a free choice by Blizzard as the 24 hours check-in is by Microsoft. Blizzard didn't have to make WoW an online game. They could have put in an offline mode, making the game more like Skyrim. It's also not necessary that Twitter requires the internet. It could have used the cell phone system, like SMS. By this sort of flaky logic, WoW and Twitter are DRM, just like Xbox One, and therefore should be boycotted, and internet rage should be directed by internet users on Blizzard and Twitter for requiring an internet connection to use their service. The second part of the argument is also wrong--Xbox One does necessarily require a 24 hour check-in. It is necessary. Without it, it would be possible to have your friend login with his account on your Xbox One, then download all his games on your console so that you have access to them forever. It would also be possible to resell a physical game, but still play the game by staying offline so the console does not know that you've sold the game.

2. “DRM for PC is OK, DRM for Xbox One is Not”
Those who argue that DRM for PC gaming and Steam is OK, but that it's not OK for Xbox One, are valueless hypocrites. These failed arguments are made, for example, in this imbecilic rant from The Escapist and this screed of fallacious arguments from Eurogamer. The argument essentially boils down to DRM is OK on Steam because Steam has sales, but it's not OK on Xbox One, because Xbox Live doesn't have sales.

If you're against Xbox One for DRM, yet subscribe to this argument, you're a sellout. You're selling out your anti-DRM values for cheaper games. No one has been able to articulate why digital games, such as those on Steam, should have DRM, whereas physical games, like discs, should not have DRM. Why is it OK that a digital game cannot be resold, but it's not OK if a physical game cannot be resold? As you rail against Microsoft's rather weak DRM, why don't you complain about Steam's DRM? Because Steam has cheap games? This is a non-sequitar. If you're against DRM, the fact that Steam has cheap games does not imply that Steam's DRM should skate past without scrutiny. Why not take Steam's cheap games and still boycott and rage against Valve for their oppressive and draconian policies that outright stops you from reselling games and sharing games? Is it because you're scared that without such DRM policies that Steam games wouldn’t be so cheap? Unless you're harshly criticizing Valve, which no one in these arguments is, for their outrageously restrictive DRM policies, you're a massive hypocrite selling out your values.

Then we turn to the question of why games are cheaper on Steam. The most common argument is that there is competition on PC because of platforms like Steam, Origin, Greenman Gaming, and GOG (which sells mostly old games that no one cares about anymore), whereas there's no competition on consoles. Xbox Live is the only way to get digital games on Xbox. But this is completely wrong for at least three reasons.

Firstly, publishers, not Microsoft, set prices. They set the price on Steam, Origin, Amazon, Xbox Live, PSN, etc. And publishers do not have a monopoly. Publishers compete with each other. So it makes no sense to say that Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox Live and that's why prices are high. Microsoft doesn't set prices on Xbox Live. When Microsoft announced the price of first-party Xbox One games, why do you think they didn’t announce the price of third-party Xbox One games too? Because they have nothing to do with those prices.

Secondly, why doesn't this argument imply that game prices are high on all platforms? Prices on Xbox Live are high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Xbox. Then prices on Steam should be high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Steam. Prices on the Blizzard store should be high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Battle.net. Share prices of UK companies should be high because the only place you can buy them is at the London Stock Exchange. The argument simply makes no sense.

Thirdly, the premise that prices are high on Xbox Live because that's the only place to get Xbox games is simply not true. You can buy Xbox games on Amazon, at Gamestop, on Ebay, and various other outlets. So there is competition between sellers of Xbox games. The same is true of PS games. But then why hasn't this competition driven down the prices of console games to the levels of PC games. Due to being distracted by the faulty premise to their arguments, no one has convincingly answered this fundamental question. Why is it that console games cannot be as cheap as PC games?

The haters wouldn’t dare say it's because PC games cannot be resold. Admitting that would be just too much hypocrisy: believing that DRM is bad, but it's good if games are cheap, but games can't possibly be cheap because of DRM. A recent paper agrees with my arguments by showing that customers are currently willing to pay higher prices for console games because they know they can recover part of that cost later by resale, and that killing resale would mean they are not willing to pay as high of a price. The conclusion of the study is that killing resale but leaving prices unchanged will reduce profits by 10%. But killing resale and lowering prices by 33% will increase profits by 18%, and this is the profit-maximizing price. In other words, killing resale is a win-win, consumers pay lower prices and game makers get higher profit. So who loses? The resellers.

But then why are Xbox One games $60? But why are AAA new releases on Steam almost always charged at full recommended retail price, which is usually $60? Because people who buy games at release are fans that are willing to pay a higher price. But like Steam, prices on Xbox One would have likely dropped faster as a result of DRM. Games which aren’t AAA would likely have been cheaper. However, they wouldn’t be as cheap as Steam, because Xbox One’s restrictions, contrary to the exaggerated complaints, was rather mild compared to Steam’s draconian DRM policies which so many people hypocritically give a free pass to. One of the mistakes of Xbox One was not supporting backward compatibility. Just like Steam, that would have allowed publishers to sell new games at full price in almost all situations, and old games at significantly cheaper prices. Regardless, you can now continue to enjoy overpriced console games courtesy of your misguided outrage.

3. The Retrogressive and Primitive Console Market
The console market is overpriced compared to the PC market. But that's not all, it lags basically on every dimension. In fact, one could be forgiven for mistaking today's console market for the PC market a decade ago.

Whereas PC games can no longer be resold, it is still possible to resell console games. The result of Microsoft’s recent u-turn to put no restriction on resale is to prop up the current inefficient status quo. A status quo where a sizable proportion of the money that gamers spend goes to leeches like Gamestop and EB, businesses that are unnecessary and add little to no value to the product, instead of going to developers. These are businesses that deserve nothing.

Consoles have failed to embrace digital distribution. Consoles still require a disc to be in the drive, an antiquated artifact from PC gaming, which is no longer necessary due to games being linked to online accounts. These online accounts are ubiquitous in PC gaming, for example on Battle.net and Steam. Online accounts grants you access to your game library on any computer, allows you to always download your games, allows for quicker updates, automatically saves your progress on the server, reduces the incidence of hacking local saves, improves anti-cheat capabilities, reduces smurfing, increases accountability, enables an array of social features such as achievements that can be verified by a server and cross-game chat. Yet the convenience of online accounts is in its infancy on consoles. In 2013, on the console version of Diablo 3, one way of playing at your friend’s house is to tug your character around on a USB and check that you saved. These are the sort of ancient techniques that were used to play your Diablo 2 single player character at your friend’s house in 2000. But in 2012, on the PC version of Diablo 3, this sort of manual labor is not necessary because all characters are saved on the Battle.net servers. It’s also not possible, thereby preventing cheaters from hacking their characters using a trainer. This is just one illustration of how console games are still decades behind the times.

Another is disc-based games, which are essentially dead on PC. But on consoles, they survive. These are games without the convenience of being linked to an online account and all the above-listed benefits that brings, and comes with the cumbersome need to screw around with inserting, ejecting, switching and storing discs. Discs are obsolete. Stuffing about with discs is a tedious exercise that is simply unnecessary in PC gaming. Moreover, clinging to this outdated relic, as opposed to going 100% digital distribution, leads to a pointless and unnecessary increase in production costs that either needlessly increases developer’s expenses or leads to higher prices for consumers. Discs are an anathema. Consoles need to get over discs. PC already has.

Yet another way in which consoles resemble PCs a decade ago, is in how slow they’ve been in embracing online gaming. Just as the PC pioneered the digital distribution of games, it also pioneered online play with the original Battle.net. The fact that so many games on console are single player, as opposed to PC, is one reason why the longevity of console games are short, which contributes to the resale problem. The most popular games on PC, such as WoW, LoL, SC2, Dota 2, Counter-Strike, Diablo 3 have one thing in common. They are all online games. And yet we have people, on these forums, the forum of an online PC game, arguing that they cannot handle a 24 hour internet check-in or that they cannot effectively download games via the internet. Sometimes, it is pointed out that other groups, often the military, in an attempt to engender sympathy, are being screwed over. But the war in Iraq is over and the war in Afghanistan is ending in 2014, only a short time after the release of the Xbox One. So get over it or get a PS4, because the benefits of online play are numerous and the console market should not be designed as if the entire world is without internet. Single player games have their place. They are an excellent medium for compelling storytelling. But online games have more longevity. The melodramatic whining about online requirements is pathetic and exaggerated. If you have a problem with online requirements and online games, what the hell are you doing on this forum? The sooner consoles realize, as the PC has a decade ago, that online games are the future, the better all our gaming experiences will be, and the more value for money we get out of buying video games.

Now that we've established that the current console market is essentially the PC market stuck in the past decade, it should be clear the primary challenge for next-generation consoles is to move towards the future--to fix this primitive and outdated mode of playing video games. While Sony has no innovations to move forward, Microsoft originally presented a visionary future for the console market, but thanks to the loud outrage of a regressive, short-sighted, entitled and hypocritical mob on the internet, Microsoft caved, and the console market will remain as outdated trash.

PC gaming eventually got over this phase, to emerge more efficient, cheaper and better for gamers, but console gamers will continue to remain stuck in the past a while longer. The goal is to move the console market to what the PC market is.

4. What Should the Future of Gaming Look Like?
The current situation is analogous to the healthcare debate in the US. The status quo (current console market) is terrible and overpriced. Yet everyone raged and hated on Obamacare (Xbox One policies) despite the fact it would help address these massive problems. People were absolutely opposed to change even though the current system was completely screwed up, because they were scared that their freedom was being taken away, despite the fact that universal healthcare in other countries (PC games) are models of proven success that could be emulated. Obamacare (Xbox One policies) was an imperfect compromise that would move us to a better future with more efficient, cheaper and better healthcare (console games).

So what should the future of gaming, both for PC and console look like? I would like to hear what you have to say, but here's my answer to this question:

-No discs: Kill the disc. They are no longer necessary. Go with 100% digital distribution. Despite the drama, this will not be a problem, millions of people seem to be fine with downloading games on Steam currently or playing online games on PC. This includes predownloads. End this unneeded cost.

-No resale: Like PC, no more reselling used games. As PC has shown and as the previously cited paper finds, this will lower the amount consumers are willing to pay for games, as they can no longer make money back by resale, which will lead to lower prices through competition between publishers.

-Game sharing limited to machine and spawn versions: Microsoft’s original sharing plan that allowed up to 10 people to access your game library was flawed since it partly undoes the effect of the resale restrictions that would have led to lower prices. The right balance is to allow sharing games to the extent that it is quite likely that other people would not have bought the game anyway. So it should be possible to share games with anyone playing on your console or computer, even if they are signed in their account, since families under the same roof tend to only buy one copy of a game. This would mean that each account would be associated to a console or computer on which other people can play their game library, but you can still play your own games on any console or computer. Sharing accounts should be absolutely discouraged, as it may increase the incidence of account compromises. Moreover, it should be possible to spawn the game, allowing you to play full multiplayer with party members who do not own the game, possibly with some restrictions like up to 50 hours of total game time. This is different from demos, which is usually a restricted subset of the game. With an online account system, traditional demos could be widely and easily made available to everyone.

-Major emphasis on online games, online accounts and social networks: Similar to PC, games on the same platform should always be tied to an online account. There is no outrage about Battle.net accounts or Steam accounts, yet when Microsoft proposes this, it’s suddenly a scandal. Having one unified online account greatly increases convenience and complements going 100% digital distribution and killing discs. It also provides a single identity that can be used as a basis for a social network for games, with social features for everyone, like chat channels, forums, cross-game chat, groups, sharing videos, streams and screenshots. It is a prerequisite to having one unified community. Compare the ease and simplicity of everyone playing SC2 using B.net with the coordination problems of SC1 where some played on pirate servers, some played via LAN, some played via Hamachi, some only played offline, some played on Battle.net, some played on ICCUP, and so on. Online accounts allows for all the other benefits previously listed. There should be a greatly increased emphasis on online play and online games which are the most popular on PC and have the greatest longevity. This should be accompanied with more investment in server infrastructure, as Microsoft is currently doing. Titanfall being online only is a move in the right direction, and the future of gaming should consist of more online games. Being online also allows for massive datasets to be gathered about play patterns, which helps developers improve game design. For example, many changes in WoW are based on data. When to nerf raid bosses sometimes depends on statistics about how often guilds are getting brick-walled. Finally, I have no problem with an always online requirement in order to enforce one unified community as Blizzard does, although others may disagree with this for single player games.

-More expansions, less DLC: There should be less DLC and more expansions. This is what we see in the PC market. It’s unfortunate that there is still so much DLC on PC, but the problem is much worse on consoles, where developers also use them as part of a desperate attempt to extend the life of games and to reduce resale. DLC are a massive ripoff. Preorder bonuses are completely ridiculous in both ripping people off and wasting developer resources on making content that is arbitrarily restricted by the physical store you preorder at, for absolutely no justifiable reason. Also, while not caused by used games, microtransactions have ruined the MMO genre and many other games, allowing those with more money to buy much greater conveniences and even power increases.

-No region locking: Region locking is an anti-consumer practice done to charge different prices to different regions based on how much people in various countries are willing to pay. For example, things are more expensive in Australia than the US because disposable income and the median wage is higher in Australia than the US. The only positive thing to come out of the Microsoft backlash is to kill region locking for Xbox One.

5. Transitioning to a Better Future for Gaming
This is the glorious future that consoles could have had. PC gaming currently is almost there. But now it’s been derailed by mad idiots on the internet, Microsoft’s spinelessness, and Sony’s utter lack of imagination and vision. PC gaming has paved the way forward, and yet the solution of the mob of Microsoft haters is to ignore this fact. And then to rage at Microsoft so that console prices can remain forever overpriced, physical stores like Gamestop and EB can continue to be parasites on the industry, the console market can remain stuck in the past, and the horribly inefficient status quo can be maintained. They have no solution and no vision, just illogical rants and fallacious arguments.

No, Sony is not the messiah. They’re an unscrupulous, opportunistic and incompetent corporation. In 2011, Sony was hacked, resulting in the personal details of 70 million user’s being compromised and PSN being down for almost a month. Embarrassingly, the intrusion was pulled off by an SQL injection attack, arguably the most elementary and simplistic hack in the book. Between 2005 and 2007, Sony secretly installed rootkits on their customer’s computers. Intended as DRM, this rootkit was exceedingly hard to remove and created gaping security vulnerabilities. After this had been exposed, Sony released a program which they claimed would remove the rootkit, but it didn’t remove it, it installed additional malware, collected personal information and created even more security vulnerabilities. So contrary to attempts to paint Sony as anti-DRM heroes, they were responsible for the most pernicious, evil, outrageous, deceptive, insidious, invasive and illegal form of DRM ever known. And we can add “defender of the terrible console market status quo” to the list of Sony’s infamous achievements.

We need to drag this console market into the future that PC has achieved. And for all the flaws and compromises Xbox One originally had, it was moving in the right direction, while PS4 was planted firmly in the past. People have the bandwidth to download games on Steam, to play online games like WoW and LoL. The world is ready for the online future. And if you’re not, you have a choice: go buy a worthless PS4. The problem now is that there is no longer a choice for a forward-looking console. You might think you’ve won, but Gamestop has won. You’ve lost and ultimately Microsoft’s flip-flop will hurt gamers by perpetuating this shitty system.

You've successfully delayed the inevitable.



Ya bro...you def wouldn't get the 1.5 meg minimum connection you needed to check in on dial up.... On top of the fact that microsoft had a partnership with gamestop/eb .....so how does their new platform stop the "parasites" on the industry? Your WoW/Twitter argument doesn't work either. So you're saying that I should have to be constantly connected to play plants vs zombies against the A.I.? Who also says that they would of lowered prices? Not to mention all this stupid bull shit features developers can opt out of(family sharing, being able to be gifted after you're done playing it.) What future you make a lot of claims of some fairy land world that was denied to you.

Seriously if this wall of text is your argument, it was better off just not written. Clearly YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG if Microsoft themselves changed their policies to get money.
Limited Edition, lets do some simple addition, $50 for a T-Shirt is just some ignorant bitch shit.
KarlKaliente
Profile Joined March 2012
United States434 Posts
June 27 2013 15:16 GMT
#3731
These arguments about whether or not a business decision is made to make money is making me giggle.

A business exists to make money, not to please the world. Sometimes you can offer a service that does both. Its often a good idea to show an interest in your consumers. But the bottom line is always money.
UMS > Melee
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 15:18:14
June 27 2013 15:17 GMT
#3732
On June 28 2013 00:01 Hey Sean. wrote:
I can't believe someone took the time to write a post that long. I stopped about half way into the first proper paragraph.

WoW isn't DRM. It's an MMO. The O stands for online. A game like Final Fantasy 13 is an RPG. It's not an ORPG, I shouldn't have to be online at all.

I see that nobody likes my WoW argument. But no one has countered by argument. In fact, you've just restated the argument that my WoW argument has debunked.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
June 27 2013 15:22 GMT
#3733
Being always online is a deal breaker for most people, period. As much as anyone wants to act like everyone has internet and it works great, most people don't have broadband, and it does go out time to time. Not being able to play my games because of a storm, or since we know it will happen, human stupidity, is never acceptable. If the game doesn't revolve around being online, like in an MMO, then there's no reason it should require always online connection. Adding some leaderboards and social features does not make a game an online experience, looking at you Sim City.
Moderator
Random()
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
June 27 2013 15:30 GMT
#3734
On June 27 2013 22:47 paralleluniverse wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I've had more time to reflect on Xbox One and the future of gaming in general. I've come to the conclusion that opponents of Microsoft's original policies are retrogressive, hypocritical or moronic. And Microsoft's flip-flop was cowardly and shameful. I'm objective and unbiased in the sense that I've never personally bought a console. Let's go through some of the arguments.

1. “DRM!!”
Firstly, complaints that the 24 hour internet check-in amounts to a restrictive form of DRM is utter nonsense. Most people have access to internet. You don't even need good internet to perform such a check-in, it could be done on a 56K modem connection. But the main point is that by this sort of reasoning everything is DRM. Requiring a disc in the drive is DRM. This particularly annoying form of DRM was used in PC gaming decades ago and has since been done away with. Yet it's somehow acceptable that this archaic, ancient DRM mechanism survives into the next generation of consoles? Xbox One would have got rid of this, but now it's back.

Indeed, WoW is DRM. You can't play WoW offline. DRM! Twitter is DRM. You can't tweet without access to the internet. DRM! Oh, but some people have argued that WoW is a MMO, as if that semantic argument relieves WoW of being DRM. Being online is intrinsic to WoW and Twitter, whereas it is not necessary for Xbox One to have a 24 hour check-in, so the argument goes, therefore, the online requirement of WoW and Twitter is not DRM. But this is completely wrong. The online requirement for WoW is just as much of a free choice by Blizzard as the 24 hours check-in is by Microsoft. Blizzard didn't have to make WoW an online game. They could have put in an offline mode, making the game more like Skyrim. It's also not necessary that Twitter requires the internet. It could have used the cell phone system, like SMS. By this sort of flaky logic, WoW and Twitter are DRM, just like Xbox One, and therefore should be boycotted, and internet rage should be directed by internet users on Blizzard and Twitter for requiring an internet connection to use their service. The second part of the argument is also wrong--Xbox One does necessarily require a 24 hour check-in. It is necessary. Without it, it would be possible to have your friend login with his account on your Xbox One, then download all his games on your console so that you have access to them forever. It would also be possible to resell a physical game, but still play the game by staying offline so the console does not know that you've sold the game.

2. “DRM for PC is OK, DRM for Xbox One is Not”
Those who argue that DRM for PC gaming and Steam is OK, but that it's not OK for Xbox One, are valueless hypocrites. These failed arguments are made, for example, in this imbecilic rant from The Escapist and this screed of fallacious arguments from Eurogamer. The argument essentially boils down to DRM is OK on Steam because Steam has sales, but it's not OK on Xbox One, because Xbox Live doesn't have sales.

If you're against Xbox One for DRM, yet subscribe to this argument, you're a sellout. You're selling out your anti-DRM values for cheaper games. No one has been able to articulate why digital games, such as those on Steam, should have DRM, whereas physical games, like discs, should not have DRM. Why is it OK that a digital game cannot be resold, but it's not OK if a physical game cannot be resold? As you rail against Microsoft's rather weak DRM, why don't you complain about Steam's DRM? Because Steam has cheap games? This is a non-sequitar. If you're against DRM, the fact that Steam has cheap games does not imply that Steam's DRM should skate past without scrutiny. Why not take Steam's cheap games and still boycott and rage against Valve for their oppressive and draconian policies that outright stops you from reselling games and sharing games? Is it because you're scared that without such DRM policies that Steam games wouldn’t be so cheap? Unless you're harshly criticizing Valve, which no one in these arguments is, for their outrageously restrictive DRM policies, you're a massive hypocrite selling out your values.

Then we turn to the question of why games are cheaper on Steam. The most common argument is that there is competition on PC because of platforms like Steam, Origin, Greenman Gaming, and GOG (which sells mostly old games that no one cares about anymore), whereas there's no competition on consoles. Xbox Live is the only way to get digital games on Xbox. But this is completely wrong for at least three reasons.

Firstly, publishers, not Microsoft, set prices. They set the price on Steam, Origin, Amazon, Xbox Live, PSN, etc. And publishers do not have a monopoly. Publishers compete with each other. So it makes no sense to say that Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox Live and that's why prices are high. Microsoft doesn't set prices on Xbox Live. When Microsoft announced the price of first-party Xbox One games, why do you think they didn’t announce the price of third-party Xbox One games too? Because they have nothing to do with those prices.

Secondly, why doesn't this argument imply that game prices are high on all platforms? Prices on Xbox Live are high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Xbox. Then prices on Steam should be high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Steam. Prices on the Blizzard store should be high because that's the only place you can buy digital games for Battle.net. Share prices of UK companies should be high because the only place you can buy them is at the London Stock Exchange. The argument simply makes no sense.

Thirdly, the premise that prices are high on Xbox Live because that's the only place to get Xbox games is simply not true. You can buy Xbox games on Amazon, at Gamestop, on Ebay, and various other outlets. So there is competition between sellers of Xbox games. The same is true of PS games. But then why hasn't this competition driven down the prices of console games to the levels of PC games. Due to being distracted by the faulty premise to their arguments, no one has convincingly answered this fundamental question. Why is it that console games cannot be as cheap as PC games?

The haters wouldn’t dare say it's because PC games cannot be resold. Admitting that would be just too much hypocrisy: believing that DRM is bad, but it's good if games are cheap, but games can't possibly be cheap because of DRM. A recent paper agrees with my arguments by showing that customers are currently willing to pay higher prices for console games because they know they can recover part of that cost later by resale, and that killing resale would mean they are not willing to pay as high of a price. The conclusion of the study is that killing resale but leaving prices unchanged will reduce profits by 10%. But killing resale and lowering prices by 33% will increase profits by 18%, and this is the profit-maximizing price. In other words, killing resale is a win-win, consumers pay lower prices and game makers get higher profit. So who loses? The resellers.

But then why are Xbox One games $60? But why are AAA new releases on Steam almost always charged at full recommended retail price, which is usually $60? Because people who buy games at release are fans that are willing to pay a higher price. But like Steam, prices on Xbox One would have likely dropped faster as a result of DRM. Games which aren’t AAA would likely have been cheaper. However, they wouldn’t be as cheap as Steam, because Xbox One’s restrictions, contrary to the exaggerated complaints, was rather mild compared to Steam’s draconian DRM policies which so many people hypocritically give a free pass to. One of the mistakes of Xbox One was not supporting backward compatibility. Just like Steam, that would have allowed publishers to sell new games at full price in almost all situations, and old games at significantly cheaper prices. Regardless, you can now continue to enjoy overpriced console games courtesy of your misguided outrage.

3. The Retrogressive and Primitive Console Market
The console market is overpriced compared to the PC market. But that's not all, it lags basically on every dimension. In fact, one could be forgiven for mistaking today's console market for the PC market a decade ago.

Whereas PC games can no longer be resold, it is still possible to resell console games. The result of Microsoft’s recent u-turn to put no restriction on resale is to prop up the current inefficient status quo. A status quo where a sizable proportion of the money that gamers spend goes to leeches like Gamestop and EB, businesses that are unnecessary and add little to no value to the product, instead of going to developers. These are businesses that deserve nothing.

Consoles have failed to embrace digital distribution. Consoles still require a disc to be in the drive, an antiquated artifact from PC gaming, which is no longer necessary due to games being linked to online accounts. These online accounts are ubiquitous in PC gaming, for example on Battle.net and Steam. Online accounts grants you access to your game library on any computer, allows you to always download your games, allows for quicker updates, automatically saves your progress on the server, reduces the incidence of hacking local saves, improves anti-cheat capabilities, reduces smurfing, increases accountability, enables an array of social features such as achievements that can be verified by a server and cross-game chat. Yet the convenience of online accounts is in its infancy on consoles. In 2013, on the console version of Diablo 3, one way of playing at your friend’s house is to tug your character around on a USB and check that you saved. These are the sort of ancient techniques that were used to play your Diablo 2 single player character at your friend’s house in 2000. But in 2012, on the PC version of Diablo 3, this sort of manual labor is not necessary because all characters are saved on the Battle.net servers. It’s also not possible, thereby preventing cheaters from hacking their characters using a trainer. This is just one illustration of how console games are still decades behind the times.

Another is disc-based games, which are essentially dead on PC. But on consoles, they survive. These are games without the convenience of being linked to an online account and all the above-listed benefits that brings, and comes with the cumbersome need to screw around with inserting, ejecting, switching and storing discs. Discs are obsolete. Stuffing about with discs is a tedious exercise that is simply unnecessary in PC gaming. Moreover, clinging to this outdated relic, as opposed to going 100% digital distribution, leads to a pointless and unnecessary increase in production costs that either needlessly increases developer’s expenses or leads to higher prices for consumers. Discs are an anathema. Consoles need to get over discs. PC already has.

Yet another way in which consoles resemble PCs a decade ago, is in how slow they’ve been in embracing online gaming. Just as the PC pioneered the digital distribution of games, it also pioneered online play with the original Battle.net. The fact that so many games on console are single player, as opposed to PC, is one reason why the longevity of console games are short, which contributes to the resale problem. The most popular games on PC, such as WoW, LoL, SC2, Dota 2, Counter-Strike, Diablo 3 have one thing in common. They are all online games. And yet we have people, on these forums, the forum of an online PC game, arguing that they cannot handle a 24 hour internet check-in or that they cannot effectively download games via the internet. Sometimes, it is pointed out that other groups, often the military, in an attempt to engender sympathy, are being screwed over. But the war in Iraq is over and the war in Afghanistan is ending in 2014, only a short time after the release of the Xbox One. So get over it or get a PS4, because the benefits of online play are numerous and the console market should not be designed as if the entire world is without internet. Single player games have their place. They are an excellent medium for compelling storytelling. But online games have more longevity. The melodramatic whining about online requirements is pathetic and exaggerated. If you have a problem with online requirements and online games, what the hell are you doing on this forum? The sooner consoles realize, as the PC has a decade ago, that online games are the future, the better all our gaming experiences will be, and the more value for money we get out of buying video games.

Now that we've established that the current console market is essentially the PC market stuck in the past decade, it should be clear the primary challenge for next-generation consoles is to move towards the future--to fix this primitive and outdated mode of playing video games. While Sony has no innovations to move forward, Microsoft originally presented a visionary future for the console market, but thanks to the loud outrage of a regressive, short-sighted, entitled and hypocritical mob on the internet, Microsoft caved, and the console market will remain as outdated trash.

PC gaming eventually got over this phase, to emerge more efficient, cheaper and better for gamers, but console gamers will continue to remain stuck in the past a while longer. The goal is to move the console market to what the PC market is.

4. What Should the Future of Gaming Look Like?
The current situation is analogous to the healthcare debate in the US. The status quo (current console market) is terrible and overpriced. Yet everyone raged and hated on Obamacare (Xbox One policies) despite the fact it would help address these massive problems. People were absolutely opposed to change even though the current system was completely screwed up, because they were scared that their freedom was being taken away, despite the fact that universal healthcare in other countries (PC games) are models of proven success that could be emulated. Obamacare (Xbox One policies) was an imperfect compromise that would move us to a better future with more efficient, cheaper and better healthcare (console games).

So what should the future of gaming, both for PC and console look like? I would like to hear what you have to say, but here's my answer to this question:

-No discs: Kill the disc. They are no longer necessary. Go with 100% digital distribution. Despite the drama, this will not be a problem, millions of people seem to be fine with downloading games on Steam currently or playing online games on PC. This includes predownloads. End this unneeded cost.

-No resale: Like PC, no more reselling used games. As PC has shown and as the previously cited paper finds, this will lower the amount consumers are willing to pay for games, as they can no longer make money back by resale, which will lead to lower prices through competition between publishers.

-Game sharing limited to machine and spawn versions: Microsoft’s original sharing plan that allowed up to 10 people to access your game library was flawed since it partly undoes the effect of the resale restrictions that would have led to lower prices. The right balance is to allow sharing games to the extent that it is quite likely that other people would not have bought the game anyway. So it should be possible to share games with anyone playing on your console or computer, even if they are signed in their account, since families under the same roof tend to only buy one copy of a game. This would mean that each account would be associated to a console or computer on which other people can play their game library, but you can still play your own games on any console or computer. Sharing accounts should be absolutely discouraged, as it may increase the incidence of account compromises. Moreover, it should be possible to spawn the game, allowing you to play full multiplayer with party members who do not own the game, possibly with some restrictions like up to 50 hours of total game time. This is different from demos, which is usually a restricted subset of the game. With an online account system, traditional demos could be widely and easily made available to everyone.

-Major emphasis on online games, online accounts and social networks: Similar to PC, games on the same platform should always be tied to an online account. There is no outrage about Battle.net accounts or Steam accounts, yet when Microsoft proposes this, it’s suddenly a scandal. Having one unified online account greatly increases convenience and complements going 100% digital distribution and killing discs. It also provides a single identity that can be used as a basis for a social network for games, with social features for everyone, like chat channels, forums, cross-game chat, groups, sharing videos, streams and screenshots. It is a prerequisite to having one unified community. Compare the ease and simplicity of everyone playing SC2 using B.net with the coordination problems of SC1 where some played on pirate servers, some played via LAN, some played via Hamachi, some only played offline, some played on Battle.net, some played on ICCUP, and so on. Online accounts allows for all the other benefits previously listed. There should be a greatly increased emphasis on online play and online games which are the most popular on PC and have the greatest longevity. This should be accompanied with more investment in server infrastructure, as Microsoft is currently doing. Titanfall being online only is a move in the right direction, and the future of gaming should consist of more online games. Being online also allows for massive datasets to be gathered about play patterns, which helps developers improve game design. For example, many changes in WoW are based on data. When to nerf raid bosses sometimes depends on statistics about how often guilds are getting brick-walled. Finally, I have no problem with an always online requirement in order to enforce one unified community as Blizzard does, although others may disagree with this for single player games.

-More expansions, less DLC: There should be less DLC and more expansions. This is what we see in the PC market. It’s unfortunate that there is still so much DLC on PC, but the problem is much worse on consoles, where developers also use them as part of a desperate attempt to extend the life of games and to reduce resale. DLC are a massive ripoff. Preorder bonuses are completely ridiculous in both ripping people off and wasting developer resources on making content that is arbitrarily restricted by the physical store you preorder at, for absolutely no justifiable reason. Also, while not caused by used games, microtransactions have ruined the MMO genre and many other games, allowing those with more money to buy much greater conveniences and even power increases.

-No region locking: Region locking is an anti-consumer practice done to charge different prices to different regions based on how much people in various countries are willing to pay. For example, things are more expensive in Australia than the US because disposable income and the median wage is higher in Australia than the US. The only positive thing to come out of the Microsoft backlash is to kill region locking for Xbox One.

5. Transitioning to a Better Future for Gaming
This is the glorious future that consoles could have had. PC gaming currently is almost there. But now it’s been derailed by mad idiots on the internet, Microsoft’s spinelessness, and Sony’s utter lack of imagination and vision. PC gaming has paved the way forward, and yet the solution of the mob of Microsoft haters is to ignore this fact. And then to rage at Microsoft so that console prices can remain forever overpriced, physical stores like Gamestop and EB can continue to be parasites on the industry, the console market can remain stuck in the past, and the horribly inefficient status quo can be maintained. They have no solution and no vision, just illogical rants and fallacious arguments.

No, Sony is not the messiah. They’re an unscrupulous, opportunistic and incompetent corporation. In 2011, Sony was hacked, resulting in the personal details of 70 million user’s being compromised and PSN being down for almost a month. Embarrassingly, the intrusion was pulled off by an SQL injection attack, arguably the most elementary and simplistic hack in the book. Between 2005 and 2007, Sony secretly installed rootkits on their customer’s computers. Intended as DRM, this rootkit was exceedingly hard to remove and created gaping security vulnerabilities. After this had been exposed, Sony released a program which they claimed would remove the rootkit, but it didn’t remove it, it installed additional malware, collected personal information and created even more security vulnerabilities. So contrary to attempts to paint Sony as anti-DRM heroes, they were responsible for the most pernicious, evil, outrageous, deceptive, insidious, invasive and illegal form of DRM ever known. And we can add “defender of the terrible console market status quo” to the list of Sony’s infamous achievements.

We need to drag this console market into the future that PC has achieved. And for all the flaws and compromises Xbox One originally had, it was moving in the right direction, while PS4 was planted firmly in the past. People have the bandwidth to download games on Steam, to play online games like WoW and LoL. The world is ready for the online future. And if you’re not, you have a choice: go buy a worthless PS4. The problem now is that there is no longer a choice for a forward-looking console. You might think you’ve won, but Gamestop has won. You’ve lost and ultimately Microsoft’s flip-flop will hurt gamers by perpetuating this shitty system.

You've successfully delayed the inevitable.


You seem to be misunderstanding what the purpose of DRM is. DRM is designed to take control of products that you buy away from you. By owning such a product you do not actually own it in the traditional sense, because the check-in requirement is equivalent to asking Microsoft every single day if you are still permitted to use a product that you have bought from them. Because of this, the console is no longer a self-sufficient, standalone product, but something that is totally dependent on some external factors that are completely irrelevant to its primary purpose. Should your internet connection or their servers fail, or Microsoft cease to exist, you end up with a non-functioning product. Imagine for a moment if any other electrical appliance worked liked that, like if your refrigerator refused to work unless it could receive permission to do so from the company that made it, for example by sending them a list of products that you put in there so that they could prevent your from storing things that they don't like.

Accepting something like that is a very dangerous line to cross.
Random()
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
June 27 2013 15:32 GMT
#3735
On June 28 2013 00:17 paralleluniverse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2013 00:01 Hey Sean. wrote:
I can't believe someone took the time to write a post that long. I stopped about half way into the first proper paragraph.

WoW isn't DRM. It's an MMO. The O stands for online. A game like Final Fantasy 13 is an RPG. It's not an ORPG, I shouldn't have to be online at all.

I see that nobody likes my WoW argument. But no one has countered by argument. In fact, you've just restated the argument that my WoW argument has debunked.


Comparing this to something like WoW or Twitter is inappropriate because in those products the online component is the primary focus and constitutes the major part of their value. Yes, Blizzard gets a "free" recurrent authentication system on top of their online service, but that is clearly not the main purpose of that service.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 27 2013 15:32 GMT
#3736
On June 28 2013 00:17 paralleluniverse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2013 00:01 Hey Sean. wrote:
I can't believe someone took the time to write a post that long. I stopped about half way into the first proper paragraph.

WoW isn't DRM. It's an MMO. The O stands for online. A game like Final Fantasy 13 is an RPG. It's not an ORPG, I shouldn't have to be online at all.

I see that nobody likes my WoW argument. But no one has countered by argument. In fact, you've just restated the argument that my WoW argument has debunked.

WoW is DRM, but it doesn't matter. There is a benefit to the DRM through a richer game play experience. People understood when purchasing WoW that they would need to connect to the servers and by doing so, they would get a different game play experience than they got in single player games. It is DRM with purpose.

People have no problem with DRM if there is a reason behind it. People like Steam because it is useful and handles a lot of issues, such as installing game and updating directX systems. We accept this because it removes the need to keep physical boxes around.

But DRM without a benefit to the consumer is disliked on many levels. It takes away something that they believe they had previously, which consumers are naturally against. Just having DRM annoys people because it doesn't benefit and imposes barriers for them to enjoy their games.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Duka08
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
3391 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 15:41:52
June 27 2013 15:40 GMT
#3737
On June 28 2013 00:17 paralleluniverse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2013 00:01 Hey Sean. wrote:
I can't believe someone took the time to write a post that long. I stopped about half way into the first proper paragraph.

WoW isn't DRM. It's an MMO. The O stands for online. A game like Final Fantasy 13 is an RPG. It's not an ORPG, I shouldn't have to be online at all.

I see that nobody likes my WoW argument. But no one has countered by argument. In fact, you've just restated the argument that my WoW argument has debunked.

The point is that, NO ONE is going to say "24hr check in DRM is STUPID, I should be able to play Halo online multiplayer WITHOUT IT". You're using games that are designed to be played online as an example. No one's implying "I hate WoW because I can't play it offline" (to run with your analogy). It's part of the game... There are many console games with no online component, to which some people are upset that they must check in once every 24 hours to play a collection of games they may have purchased that have no online or multiplayer component.

Edit: Basically Plansix above covered it well...
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 27 2013 15:44 GMT
#3738
On June 28 2013 00:40 Duka08 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2013 00:17 paralleluniverse wrote:
On June 28 2013 00:01 Hey Sean. wrote:
I can't believe someone took the time to write a post that long. I stopped about half way into the first proper paragraph.

WoW isn't DRM. It's an MMO. The O stands for online. A game like Final Fantasy 13 is an RPG. It's not an ORPG, I shouldn't have to be online at all.

I see that nobody likes my WoW argument. But no one has countered by argument. In fact, you've just restated the argument that my WoW argument has debunked.

The point is that, NO ONE is going to say "24hr check in DRM is STUPID, I should be able to play Halo online multiplayer WITHOUT IT". You're using games that are designed to be played online as an example. No one's implying "I hate WoW because I can't play it offline" (to run with your analogy). It's part of the game... There are many console games with no online component, to which some people are upset that they must check in once every 24 hours to play a collection of games they may have purchased that have no online or multiplayer component.

Edit: Basically Plansix above covered it well...

Yes, DRM that is there for the publisher and only them is bad, because I don't get anything out of it. DRM that also provides me with something I want is fine. I will by all the games online and download them. They can have all the DRM on them, because I don't have to go to the store and deal with Gamestop clerks.

But DRM where I get nothing is worthless to me. I will avoid products that have it. Xbox had it, so I was going to avoid it. Now they don't so they can sell me on their system again.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
June 27 2013 15:48 GMT
#3739
My friend thinks 24hr check in is STOOOOOOOOOPID. As he is deployed in Iraq, xbox is his primary entertainment ATM, except he often gets no internet connection of any kind for weeks at a time.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-27 16:02:23
June 27 2013 16:02 GMT
#3740
On June 28 2013 00:40 Duka08 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2013 00:17 paralleluniverse wrote:
On June 28 2013 00:01 Hey Sean. wrote:
I can't believe someone took the time to write a post that long. I stopped about half way into the first proper paragraph.

WoW isn't DRM. It's an MMO. The O stands for online. A game like Final Fantasy 13 is an RPG. It's not an ORPG, I shouldn't have to be online at all.

I see that nobody likes my WoW argument. But no one has countered by argument. In fact, you've just restated the argument that my WoW argument has debunked.

The point is that, NO ONE is going to say "24hr check in DRM is STUPID, I should be able to play Halo online multiplayer WITHOUT IT". You're using games that are designed to be played online as an example. No one's implying "I hate WoW because I can't play it offline" (to run with your analogy). It's part of the game... There are many console games with no online component, to which some people are upset that they must check in once every 24 hours to play a collection of games they may have purchased that have no online or multiplayer component.

Edit: Basically Plansix above covered it well...

I've already explained this in the original argument.
Indeed, WoW is DRM. You can't play WoW offline. DRM! Twitter is DRM. You can't tweet without access to the internet. DRM! Oh, but some people have argued that WoW is a MMO, as if that semantic argument relieves WoW of being DRM. Being online is intrinsic to WoW and Twitter, whereas it is not necessary for Xbox One to have a 24 hour check-in, so the argument goes, therefore, the online requirement of WoW and Twitter is not DRM. But this is completely wrong. The online requirement for WoW is just as much of a free choice by Blizzard as the 24 hours check-in is by Microsoft. Blizzard didn't have to make WoW an online game. They could have put in an offline mode, making the game more like Skyrim. It's also not necessary that Twitter requires the internet. It could have used the cell phone system, like SMS. By this sort of flaky logic, WoW and Twitter are DRM, just like Xbox One, and therefore should be boycotted, and internet rage should be directed by internet users on Blizzard and Twitter for requiring an internet connection to use their service. The second part of the argument is also wrong--Xbox One does necessarily require a 24 hour check-in. It is necessary. Without it, it would be possible to have your friend login with his account on your Xbox One, then download all his games on your console so that you have access to them forever. It would also be possible to resell a physical game, but still play the game by staying offline so the console does not know that you've sold the game.

The 24 hour check-in is as intrinsic to Xbox One as online play is to WoW, as without it, you can get every single Xbox One game for free. As I've said, WoW didn't have to be a online game, they could have allowed it to be offline.
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