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I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:24 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 03:07 tree.hugger wrote:On December 15 2010 02:58 gogogadgetflow wrote:On December 15 2010 02:42 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On December 15 2010 02:23 skipdog172 wrote:On December 15 2010 02:10 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On December 15 2010 02:07 skipdog172 wrote:On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded. This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout. What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that? Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option? early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing I could go on... Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc Taking an early gas is quite common with many toss builds. Putting the 2nd pylon in some corner of the base is very common with many toss builds. Is the terran player really going to drastically alter his build because he thinks there *might* be void rays coming because of an early 2nd gas which is quite common in many builds? You really think the terran player needs to react to that when it could still mean so many possible builds? Should the terran player really alter his early build because the fast gas showed that quick void rays are one possibility out of many possible builds? Please tell me more about sc2 sir. I had no idea Could you genuinely address the issue without being an ass? You're basically saying terran's first scv can scout little hints like these that suggest void rays, and you're right. At the same time all of these hints at sub-3 minutes into the game dont make void rays any more likely than the sum liklihood of dts, phoenix, blink stalkers, or literally *any* tech route, plus there's the chance that the enemy pulls off of gas once your scout dies. Either way, whether you get the hints towards one tech or another your gonna have to scout later with a helion/reaper (possibly feasible), factory, or scan to hone in the opponent's build. Or maybe the toss turns up with a different build (expands sooner than expected or has more stalkers than expected) sooner than this time frame and you don't have to scout for what was up at all. Who are you? Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble, because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules and a general awareness and sensitivity to the protoss build. An early scout sets the tone for how you play the game. You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence. Incontrol stated Show nested quote + Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded. Clearly he is implying that his 12 food scv should give him the information necessary to build 2 Vikings instead of a Raven to prepare for VRs. We are trying to make the point that seeing an early 2nd gas from protoss is not enough information to assume Void Rays and make 2 Vikings instead of a Raven blindly. This entire thread is about the early scv scout, so to us InControl is clearly saying that Terrans should assume VRs are coming when they see an early 2nd gas and that is what we are having a hard time understanding. I'm not sure why InControl is acting so smug and superior to everybody. We are just trying to understand the discussion more clearly. This is a good discussion about how one person can be so successful without sending an early scv scout and maybe too many players are sending an early scout on certain maps/matchups when it is going to change nothing 90% of the time and they could have had an extra 50-100 minerals 100% of the time.
You missed the point, even when I explained it specifically. Obviously your scout isn't going to see the stargates being made. But if you never scouted the tech build to begin with, you might never scout the stargates, because you wouldn't be spending scans to check corners of the base. Again, scouting is a game long activity. It starts with your initial scout, which tells you when to scout next and where, and then that scout will give you info that determines where you scan next, and so on. iNc is implying that an early scout would set this process in motion, and makes you much less susceptible to surprises.
On December 15 2010 03:19 gogogadgetflow wrote:Show nested quote +Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble, No one. So we agree. Show nested quote +because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules If you scout what *may be* a non-tech build and so forgo more of that larger ensemble you are just as vulnerable to a tech switch as you would have been to a certain tech in the first place. The point is you have to keep constant tabs on your opponent, or as you put it, keep The point is you don't need to start off by sacrificing economy when you can just begin that ensemble at a time more crucial to your robust build order. Sjow's tournament and ladder record is pretty much proof of that. Show nested quote +You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence. And you end with something everyone will agree on. thank you
You're not getting the whole picture either. My response is basically what I said above. The impact of that one scv is minimal compared to the information that sets your entire game plan in motion. Sjow's tournament and ladder record is a testament to his mechanics and game sense, not to a lack of scouting. If Sjow plays (say) NonY in a BoX series that both prepare for, then Sjow is going to lose if he doesn't scout. You can get away with that on the ladder, but you can't get away with that against prepared builds.
The fact that he plays terran definitely helps, by the way. But you can still abuse it.
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On December 15 2010 03:50 arterian wrote:I wonder if his build can hold off 10 pylon 10 gate 10 gate proxy 
He lost to this several times on his stream.. But he also held it off poking with marines around natural etc. It depends how far proxy gates are.. Actually I think its more safe to scout around your base for proxy than see something is missing in Protoss base when its too late.
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it's cool that people know sjow doesn't scout now.
best of luck to him in tourneys. I'm sure he wont need to be scouting then.
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most the time when i'm scouting it's purely looking if i'm being cheesed whether it be 2 gate proxy or 6 pool. i generally don't get cheesed by terran, but it's nice messing with their scv's =]
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote:
How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
I think people are just confused why this guy, who does 0 early game scouting and still manage to win so many games and win so many online, even "offline" tournaments.
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Ok. Sjow has spoken.
Lets just leave it at that. Nothing more to argue about.
I myself will wait untill Sjow changes his opinion about scout which I think is in very near future.
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On December 15 2010 03:27 Rabbet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote:
How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout. Nobody is arguing not to scout. It is the matter of when to scout. Also, Brood War is a different game and this is the SC2 forum.
All RTS games are based on the same thing. Get eco, army and win. With scouting it is the same in every game as well, get information and adapt accordingly... How is that different for any game?
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On December 15 2010 03:54 FindingPride wrote:
it's cool that people know sjow doesn't scout now.
best of luck to him in tourneys. I'm sure he wont need to be scouting then.
Lol it's mentioned like every time one of his games are cast. Which isn't exactly rare considering he makes finals in a money tourney several times a week.
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On December 15 2010 00:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
This thread bothers me so much. There is no defense for not scouting. It's fucking terrible play. The mine time of a single scv and the potential information it gives is insurmountable. Some day he will start scouting and laugh at his past or he won't and will fade away as that low amp Terran that had some success early on when people didn't have the game figured out at all.
Naz's post is nearly entirely irrelevant btw because he is comparing not scouting early at all to people "over scouting" which is apples and oranges. I'm not saying everyone needs to dedicate 3 harvesters to early game scouting but if you can get info that they are 1 gate fe OR they are vr rushing which he loses to all the time because 1-1-1 is bad vs it then he'd be much better.... And at what cost? The mining time of a single scv? Lol
Please don't sit aroung making it sound like not scouting is a style and saving the mining time of 1 worker is some brilliant macro play... It's not.
On December 15 2010 00:07 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 00:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
This thread bothers me so much. There is no defense for not scouting. It's fucking terrible play. The mine time of a single scv and the potential information it gives is insurmountable. Some day he will start scouting and laugh at his past or he won't and will fade away as that low amp Terran that had some success early on when people didn't have the game figured out at all.
Naz's post is nearly entirely irrelevant btw because he is comparing not scouting early at all to people "over scouting" which is apples and oranges. I'm not saying everyone needs to dedicate 3 harvesters to early game scouting but if you can get info that they are 1 gate fe OR they are vr rushing which he loses to all the time because 1-1-1 is bad vs it then he'd be much better.... And at what cost? The mining time of a single scv? Lol
Please don't sit aroung making it sound like not scouting is a style and saving the mining time of 1 worker is some brilliant macro play... It's not. Good to see a high level player speak out against this. ^__^
I was about to go berserk wondering how in the hell so many people are defending not scouting...wondering when a champion of the common sense people would rise up in this thread...and then inc comes!
Seriously, first few pages of this thread...what the fuck. Are you guys all trolling or are you seriously trying to defend sjow's horrible scouting that has been pointed out by most people here?
Has the "derp" really pervaded the brains and common sense of so many people on these forums? The OP itself is a gigantic "Derp." Like inc said, "horrible scouting" is not a fucking style...IT'S BAD PLAY.
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On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you?
point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
also. do you think you can tell the difference between 1 gate expand and 2gate robo expand?? - -
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Its ridiculous how many people dont get to point of the op. Its not about the scouting itself. Its about the current standard and about a player who questions it.
I think there is nothing better in a RTS then changing the standard. So instead of defending it it should be questioned.
And even if Sjow starts scouting again with an "early" scv its just because he found a build of his opponent who made it necessary. You guys should start to realize its not about whats right and whats wrong. Its about how can i maximize my gain with the least investment.
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On December 15 2010 03:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Chill just run man, there are too many of them 
I just love how you judge people left and right like there is no tomorrow being justice in your little world of SC2 that you think you succeded in. Good luck with this approach sir, you made my day with your comments today..
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lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
THORS??
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Thanks Sjow for posting. You have inspired my play.
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On December 15 2010 04:00 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv) Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
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On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
i think it's to late to clear things up now Sjow, the "victimization and bandwagon" snowball is already down the mountain.
Still, thanks for explaining it for us
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On December 15 2010 04:04 SjoW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:00 FindingPride wrote:On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv) Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming. Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
I think from now you rather change it to 20% standard and 80% cheese as this thread grows exponentionaly, haha.. :-)
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Calgary25987 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:27 Rabbet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote:
How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout. Nobody is arguing not to scout. It is the matter of when to scout. Also, Brood War is a different game and this is the SC2 forum.
Obviously you can infer from my original post that I'm talking about traditional SCV scouting so there's no need for your play-dumb reply.
I think you can see the similarities between Brood War and SC2. Namely the buildings and units that you make for the first 5 minutes being literally identical. It's ignorant to blindly say "NEW GAME" when there is ridiculous overlap between them.
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On December 15 2010 04:04 SjoW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:00 FindingPride wrote:On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv) Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming. Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
I edited my post. to add this.. how can you tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 2gate robo expand? Cross spawn metalop... he 1 gates expand... you cant cheese that. your going to be behind from no scout/latescout and you can't really tell the difference between a 2gate robo/ 1gate expand if you can't get in his base. He has the towers he see's the hellion. wut u do? you know hes expanded you have two choices. Catch up or push. it's nigh impossible to see where he is on the tech path. you can assume hes teching to robo or that hes already at it and at worse is sending an observer to your base. I agree the 1/1/1 can fend off all cheese. But i believe your killing a large part of your adaption by not scouting at all. If you see a 1 gate expand and its close spawn and your going 1/1/1 start pumping banshees.. or if its long spawn.... dont 2 gas and start adding tanks or more rax ( late port )
thats a perfect example for you right there... regardless best of luck.
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EPT
