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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On December 09 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote: See my reply to him.Why? I don't see how we can avoid the line mastergriggy has written here, therefore I am hesitant to play 26. exd5. Also, to all those voting for 26. Rc1, how do you plan to deal with + Show Spoiler [this?] + 26...Bd6 | ||
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loginn
France815 Posts
That move I suggested was plain stupid. I have such a hard time looking at a postion on a computer sometimes. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On December 09 2011 05:38 qrs wrote: Thanks for the correction--yes, exd5 is what I meant. + Show Spoiler + I'm not sure what the goal behind Ne4 is--as your line shows, the Knight can be chased away without accomplishing very much. My mainline here is 27. Rc1, preventing 28...Bc5 (more robustly than 27. Ne4 does), threatening various pins and forks like Rc7+ or Rc6, and generally getting our Rook out of his defensive niche into an active position. If 27....Bd6, I think we're fine playing 28. BxB. If 27. Bxa3, we can play 28. Rc7+, which is interesting. + Show Spoiler + First just to get it out of the way, in response to 27. Rc1 Bd6, I believe it weakens black as one of his main advantages is having the double bishops, so I strongly doubt he will play that, i.e. 28. Bxd6 Kxd6 29. Ne4+ Ke5 (29...Kxd5 30. Nxf6+ winning another pawn)30. Nc5 Be2 (because of the fork) 31. a6 Ra2 32. a4 is very strong for white. On a side note real quick, I looked at 26...c4, but it's rather pointless after 27. Rc1 Alright, on to the main line 26...cxd4 27. Rc1 Then 27...Bxa3 28. Rc7+ Ke8 (moving to the 6th rank loses a Bishop, and I'm not sure if e8 or d8 is better) 29. Rxh7 Bb4 and I hit a wall for white. If we move our knight, it gets dangerous (such as 30. Ne4 Rb1+ 31. Kf2 Rf1+ 32. Kg3 Be1+ winning a piece). 30. Nf3 makes it impossible to stop the pawn without giving up a piece. Alternatively to moving the knight is 30. Ra7 Bxd2 31. Bxd2 Rxd2 Rxa6 looks better for white than the other lines, although it's basically an equalization of the position imo. It could be there is a better 29th move for white also? I'm not immediately seeing one. I think there are a lot more lines for black after Bd6, so maybe it's not as weak as I thought it was originally (although it still looks bad for black). Edit: I guess this is important too, concerning 26. Rc1 + Show Spoiler + 26. Rc1 Bd6 27. Bxd6 Kxd6 (Rxd2 dxc5 with advantage to white) 28. dxc5 Kc7 (...Kc6 29. ed5+ wins a pawn) doesn't look great for white since his knight is basically dangling around. Black's bishop is slowing or stopping all of white's pawns and white's isn't providing any help. On the plus side for white, he has his passed c pawn which for the moment he can hold onto, but in the long run he will lose it. For now, my vote is 26. exd5 + Show Spoiler + to give us opportunities in the middle of the board with our passed pawn and not going for drawish lines Lol, I kind of want to look at Rb1, but I don't think it does anything for white. Edit 2: I never address my idea behind + Show Spoiler + Ne4...I wanted white to take initiative in the center of the board and get his pawn moving. One of the possibilities I looked at was getting it to e6, but more importantly I wanted to prevent black from playing Bd6. In retrospect, I realize black can play Re2, which shuts down white's ideas (with the possible transposition of Ng3-f5). | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:14 mastergriggy wrote: A lot of things to address here:+ Show Spoiler + First just to get it out of the way, in response to 27. Rc1 Bd6, I believe it weakens black as one of his main advantages is having the double bishops, so I strongly doubt he will play that, i.e. 28. Bxd6 Kxd6 29. Ne4+ Ke5 (29...Kxd5 30. Nxf6+ winning another pawn)30. Nc5 Be2 (because of the fork) 31. a6 Ra2 32. a4 is very strong for white. On a side note real quick, I looked at 26...c4, but it's rather pointless after 27. Rc1 Alright, on to the main line 26...cxd4 27. Rc1 Then 27...Bxa3 28. Rc7+ Ke8 (moving to the 6th rank loses a Bishop, and I'm not sure if e8 or d8 is better) 29. Rxh7 Bb4 and I hit a wall for white. If we move our knight, it gets dangerous (such as 30. Ne4 Rb1+ 31. Kf2 Rf1+ 32. Kg3 Be1+ winning a piece). 30. Nf3 makes it impossible to stop the pawn without giving up a piece. Alternatively to moving the knight is 30. Ra7 Bxd2 31. Bxd2 Rxd2 Rxa6 looks better for white than the other lines, although it's basically an equalization of the position imo. It could be there is a better 29th move for white also? I'm not immediately seeing one. I think there are a lot more lines for black after Bd6, so maybe it's not as weak as I thought it was originally (although it still looks bad for black). Edit: I guess this is important too, concerning 26. Rc1 + Show Spoiler + 26. Rc1 Bd6 27. Bxd6 Kxd6 (Rxd2 dxc5 with advantage to white) 28. dxc5 Kc7 (...Kc6 29. ed5+ wins a pawn) doesn't look great for white since his knight is basically dangling around. Black's bishop is slowing or stopping all of white's pawns and white's isn't providing any help. On the plus side for white, he has his passed c pawn which for the moment he can hold onto, but in the long run he will lose it. For now, my vote is 26. exd5 + Show Spoiler + to give us opportunities in the middle of the board with our passed pawn and not going for drawish lines Lol, I kind of want to look at Rb1, but I don't think it does anything for white. Edit 2: I never address my idea behind + Show Spoiler + Ne4...I wanted white to take initiative in the center of the board and get his pawn moving. One of the possibilities I looked at was getting it to e6, but more importantly I wanted to prevent black from playing Bd6. In retrospect, I realize black can play Re2, which shuts down white's ideas (with the possible transposition of Ng3-f5). + Show Spoiler [following 26. exd5] +
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Ng5
702 Posts
Just play it out. | ||
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SausageLinks
United States93 Posts
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On December 09 2011 08:59 qrs wrote: A lot of things to address here: + Show Spoiler [following 26. exd5] +
+ Show Spoiler + Well you know my history of making attempting to make illegal moves  . Anyhow, the reason why I see the position as equal is because white has to give up at least one pawn to stop black's passed pawn (I think he might have to give up both, but since I don't really want to post all the lines, I'll simplify it by saying that the only way white can get his king to the pawn is by giving up his g or h pawn)The line you mentioned that involves not taking the h7 pawn (instead with a7, for example) was the only time in that line where white really had a lot of free space. Your line has a lot of potential to move the pawn forward, so I particularly like it. As far as I'm concerned that line is what I will make my moves aiming for. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
And it's not that close. It would mean 4 more pieces beside the kings in total. We're not there yet. And I'm pretty sure at least someone won't hold back on posting what they think when we are. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On December 09 2011 12:02 Ng5 wrote: Yeah, I was thinking it would be harder to get people to refrain from using those than from using chess engines. All right then, I guess it's agreed that both sides can consult them.It will be close to trivial by the time we get to that few pieces anyway. And it's not that close. It would mean 4 more pieces beside the kings in total. We're not there yet. And I'm pretty sure at least someone won't hold back on posting what they think when we are. On a different subject: Move 26 votes + Show Spoiler [votes] + 26. exd5: 7 (liberal, 26. Rc1: 4 (ffreakk, dtvu, Befree, hp.Shell) 26. Rb1: 0 ( ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bovXO.png) Draw Offer: 1 (Blazinghand) of 11 voters so far. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On December 09 2011 11:33 mastergriggy wrote: But giving up a pawn to capture a pawn is not really giving up a pawn. Do you have any lines where White gives more pawns than he gets?+ Show Spoiler + [T]he reason why I see the position as equal is because white has to give up at least one pawn to stop black's passed pawn (I think he might have to give up both, but since I don't really want to post all the lines, I'll simplify it by saying that the only way white can get his king to the pawn is by giving up his g or h pawn). | ||
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HypertonicHydroponic
437 Posts
a6 29. Nc4 instead of Ra7 + Show Spoiler [copy and paste into Notepad...] + 25. ... c5 (our starting position) -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK BB -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- BP BP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WP WP WB -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP WR -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 26. exd5 -- this is the move everyone seems to think is best, so we will start with that assumption -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK BB -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- BP WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WP -- WB -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP WR -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 26. ... cxd4 -- this again is part of the line griggy gave -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK BB -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP WR -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 27. Rc1 -- qrs seems to like this, so where do we go from here -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK BB -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP -- -- WR -- -- -- WK -- 27. ... Bxa3 -- I think that this line is more advantageous for black so I'm going to run with it, I don't think that offering the bishop trade on d6 is as aggressive or as much on black's terms as he'd like it to be, white needs to have a line against the most potent line black has which I think as I said is this one -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP -- -- WR -- -- -- WK -- 28. Rc7+ -- qrs finds this interesting, so where do we go from here... -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WR BK -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 28. ... Kd8 -- holding the line against the advancing pawn -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 29. Nc4 -- at this point the options for white are Rxh7, Rf7, Ra7, Bd6, h3, Nc4, Ne4, Nf3, Nf1, d6; of these I choose Nc4 to look at first because it attempts to do three things, 1) to offer the favorable trade of the short ranged knight for the off color bishop, 2) to win back some tempo by an aggressive fork, 3) to bolster the advancement of the d pawn. This to me seemed to be the most "interesting" and having potential for good things to happen... but...... -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- -- -- -- WP WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 29. ... Rb1+ -- check allows so many things to be ignored... -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WP WP -- BR -- -- -- -- WK -- 30. Kf2 -- only place to go -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR -- -- -- -- -- -- 30. ... Bc1! -- by offering the trade back, black is able to disarm the Nc4 threat and instead threaten to turn it around with 31. Bxc1 Rxc1 potentially winning the knight -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- WB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR BB -- -- -- -- -- 31. Bd6 -- The other two options I considered here, both worth looking into further is 31. Bg3. The problem with it is that after 31. ... Rb4 white seemed to have weak follow-ups. I looked breifly at 31. Nd2, but 31. ... Bxd2 either wins the piece and forces 32. Bd6 or 32. Bg3 anyway, or else 32. Bxd2 Kxc7 losing a rook instead. -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR BB -- -- -- -- -- 31. ... d3 -- choo-choo -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR BB -- -- -- -- -- 32. Ne3 -- gotta russel up that train! Opens up the rook to attack the c-file bishop, relieves pressure to the knight, intercepts the queening square. -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP WN -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR BB -- -- -- -- -- 32. ... Rb2+ -- Chill, er, king get out -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP WN -- -- -- -- BR -- -- -- WK WP WP -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- 33. Kf3 -- only sensible move in my opinion -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP WN WK -- -- -- BR -- -- -- -- WP WP -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- 33. ... d2! -- this I think is going to be the camel-breaking straw. To stop this promotion, white is going to lose material, and from there, I can only see the slow fall barring any blunders. Why do I think this is the case? What can white do here? The only two options I can see that are not immediately bad in two or three moves are: Rc3 and Nd1. 34. Rc2 Rxc2 35. Nxc2 d1+ does not work. The only bishop move that does not immediately lose the rook to the king, loose itself to a pawn and does anything that might potentially help prevent the promotion is 34. Bf4, but ... Rb3 pins the knight and allows the promotion to occur uncontested, or at least allowing for an unfavorable exchange for white. Rc3 seems a little safer but allows the black king out. Nd1 delays more directly but there might be a sneaky way for black to take advantage of this. Either way, I still say this looks pretty grim for white to come out ahead, if even stay alive. -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WN WK -- -- -- BR -- BP -- -- WP WP -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- I've done this for some of the other moves that were questioned as well, but from what I could tell most of them went well for black much more quickly, at least how I played them out. I also played one out concerning + Show Spoiler + 26. ... Bd6 | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
But anyway. Trust me the tablebases will not bring anything to the table save for a small epsilon error. Most of the time if you can figure something with them you could as well figure it out without. And it takes a lot - and I mean a lot of work if you are not familiar or used to using them - and you can easily slip up during that work. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On December 09 2011 12:34 qrs wrote: But giving up a pawn to capture a pawn is not really giving up a pawn. Do you have any lines where White gives more pawns than he gets? + Show Spoiler + Well black would get two pawns for one pawn. It might still be a won position for white though? Line: After 32. Rxa6 Rc2 33. Rxf6 d3 34. Kf1 Re2 35. Rf2 Re5 and black can pick off two pawns. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On December 09 2011 12:43 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: Ach, I feel bad for you having to do all that manipulation in Notepad. Use this for your analysis needs from now on.Well, I think the line where qrs is talking about a potential + Show Spoiler + a6 29. Nc4 instead of Ra7 + Show Spoiler [copy and paste into Notepad...] + 25. ... c5 (our starting position) -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK BB -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- BP BP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WP WP WB -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP WR -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 26. exd5 -- this is the move everyone seems to think is best, so we will start with that assumption -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK BB -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- BP WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WP -- WB -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP WR -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 26. ... cxd4 -- this again is part of the line griggy gave -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK BB -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP WR -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 27. Rc1 -- qrs seems to like this, so where do we go from here -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK BB -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP -- -- WR -- -- -- WK -- 27. ... Bxa3 -- I think that this line is more advantageous for black so I'm going to run with it, I don't think that offering the bishop trade on d6 is as aggressive or as much on black's terms as he'd like it to be, white needs to have a line against the most potent line black has which I think as I said is this one -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BK -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP -- -- WR -- -- -- WK -- 28. Rc7+ -- qrs finds this interesting, so where do we go from here... -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WR BK -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 28. ... Kd8 -- holding the line against the advancing pawn -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- WN -- -- WP WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 29. Nc4 -- at this point the options for white are Rxh7, Rf7, Ra7, Bd6, h3, Nc4, Ne4, Nf3, Nf1, d6; of these I choose Nc4 to look at first because it attempts to do three things, 1) to offer the favorable trade of the short ranged knight for the off color bishop, 2) to win back some tempo by an aggressive fork, 3) to bolster the advancement of the d pawn. This to me seemed to be the most "interesting" and having potential for good things to happen... but...... -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BR -- -- -- -- WP WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WK -- 29. ... Rb1+ -- check allows so many things to be ignored... -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WP WP -- BR -- -- -- -- WK -- 30. Kf2 -- only place to go -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- WB -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR -- -- -- -- -- -- 30. ... Bc1! -- by offering the trade back, black is able to disarm the Nc4 threat and instead threaten to turn it around with 31. Bxc1 Rxc1 potentially winning the knight -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- -- -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- WB -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR BB -- -- -- -- -- 31. Bd6 -- The other two options I considered here, both worth looking into further is 31. Bg3. The problem with it is that after 31. ... Rb4 white seemed to have weak follow-ups. I looked breifly at 31. Nd2, but 31. ... Bxd2 either wins the piece and forces 32. Bd6 or 32. Bg3 anyway, or else 32. Bxd2 Kxc7 losing a rook instead. -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN BP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR BB -- -- -- -- -- 31. ... d3 -- choo-choo -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- WN -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR BB -- -- -- -- -- 32. Ne3 -- gotta russel up that train! Opens up the rook to attack the c-file bishop, relieves pressure to the knight, intercepts the queening square. -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP WN -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WK WP WP -- BR BB -- -- -- -- -- 32. ... Rb2+ -- Chill, er, king get out -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP WN -- -- -- -- BR -- -- -- WK WP WP -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- 33. Kf3 -- only sensible move in my opinion -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- BP WN WK -- -- -- BR -- -- -- -- WP WP -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- 33. ... d2! -- this I think is going to be the camel-breaking straw. To stop this promotion, white is going to lose material, and from there, I can only see the slow fall barring any blunders. Why do I think this is the case? What can white do here? The only two options I can see that are not immediately bad in two or three moves are: Rc3 and Nd1. 34. Rc2 Rxc2 35. Nxc2 d1+ does not work. The only bishop move that does not immediately lose the rook to the king, loose itself to a pawn and does anything that might potentially help prevent the promotion is 34. Bf4, but ... Rb3 pins the knight and allows the promotion to occur uncontested, or at least allowing for an unfavorable exchange for white. Rc3 seems a little safer but allows the black king out. Nd1 delays more directly but there might be a sneaky way for black to take advantage of this. Either way, I still say this looks pretty grim for white to come out ahead, if even stay alive. -- -- -- BK -- -- -- -- -- -- WR -- -- -- -- BP BB -- -- WB -- BP -- -- WP -- -- WP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- WN WK -- -- -- BR -- BP -- -- WP WP -- -- BB -- -- -- -- -- I've done this for some of the other moves that were questioned as well, but from what I could tell most of them went well for black much more quickly, at least how I played them out. I also played one out concerning + Show Spoiler + 26. ... Bd6 On December 09 2011 12:56 Ng5 wrote: I can't speak for everyone, but for me the game had lost a bit of interest in the last couple of moves: it was dutifully following lines that I both expected and didn't relish. Your latest move out of left field made me perk up again--I was sure you were going to play 25...dxe4. (Tell me, how strongly did you consider that?)How this thread's become alive again in the middle of midterm week is beyond me. Could be blamed on Europeans, but our most zealous posters all write too late to be from outside of America. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On December 09 2011 12:56 Ng5 wrote: How this thread's become alive again in the middle of midterm week is beyond me. Could be blamed on Europeans, but our most zealous posters all write too late to be from outside of America. But anyway. Trust me the tablebases will not bring anything to the table save for a small epsilon error. Most of the time if you can figure something with them you could as well figure it out without. And it takes a lot - and I mean a lot of work if you are not familiar or used to using them - and you can easily slip up during that work. Skyrim got boring? Lol | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On December 09 2011 13:11 mastergriggy wrote: + Show Spoiler [...and White wins] ++ Show Spoiler + Well black would get two pawns for one pawn. It might still be a won position for white though? Line: After 32. Rxa6 Rc2 33. Rxf6 d3 34. Kf1 Re2 35. Rf2 Re5 and black can pick off two pawns. 32. Rxa6 Rc2 33. Rxf6 d3 34. Kf1 Re2 35. Re6+ ... 1-0. even in your line, we still ought to end up getting two pawns for two pawns: you have Black conceding the f-pawn from the start, and he surely can't hold the d-pawn. Fork aside, by the way, I think that ...Re2 is probably a wasted move after Kf1 in general: not only does it not threaten anything that I can see, but it actually makes it harder for Black to push his d-pawn. | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
I mean everything was about when how and under what circumstances I can push c5 since... Kxd7? c5 has been the first move to check in every single position, sideline and variation since then and I knew that it could happen when I realized Rb8 was a good move in this opening and that you might answer with early Bxc6. I knew I would have to move it should my original plan with Rb8-Rb6-Rg6-sack-mah-head-off-on-the-kingside not come through. I mean a5 had been one of the center points of every thought in every move and even a5 was only made to make me be able to push c5 later in peace. About predictability. It doesn't really say anything. One can predict every single move in a game, but you have to know the deep underlying idea of what your opponent wants. I knew you were trying to force a win. I use force because you could have been much more patient, but your moves weren't. That doesn't really work well most of the times. So yes my moves might have looked predictable and/or boring, but every one of them served one single purpose - and that's c5. For example... Back in the days when I started playing I had the then newest version of Chessmaster. It had this game of Kasparov with guessing the moves. I had a pretty high ratio even after half a year, but the truth is - my intuitions and my ideas were crystal clear - but I still didn't know jack shit about chess. I'm not implying the same - I'm just saying that predicting and falling lazy because of your prediction comes through for a while is an insanely usual pattern that leads to many players downfall. Part of becoming a better player is not just overcoming that anticipation, but getting to a point where you don't even 'pick it up' per se. Anyway I wrote long enough already. What I did consider for a few days is just taking it to an easy draw, though - after seeing this thread dying slowly despite the tremendous work gone into it. I don't think I would have done it because it's unlike of me, but I did dance with the idea for a while. | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
Even if the particular position or moves that are made are boring there's so much that could have or should have happened that one can explore. It boggles my mind every time I think of giving up chess and am presented with a particular position. It's like a switch that turns on the crazy. Or pushes it to overdrive. | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
It's like a relationship. Building one. You decide how much you are willing to give up for it to work at the start. How much you would bend, what you expect for it, how much you want the other to bend, and so on. You'll still have a crisis every day - that's the nature of relationships. But if you forget what you set up at start - you lose. You give up too much - you lose. You want too much - you lose. You take too much - you lose. And don't look at me as if I was a geek (I probably am). My very own mother said that I 'play' my relationships the same way I play my chess. She explained it into detail, but meh. It'd be boring. | ||
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EPT
I feel very bad now. 
