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On June 01 2011 17:38 bode927 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 16:38 isM wrote:On June 01 2011 15:53 bode927 wrote:
I'm just gonna say one thing on the Destiny vs iNcontroL argument that happened on SotG earlier.
Inc stated that if you're going to be a spokesperson for sc2, you have to censor yourself. Destiny's response was something like, i don't try to be a spokesperson for sc2.
Let me ask this... Did Michael Jordan have a choice as to whether or not he represented the NBA when he was a player? No. His actions were closely watched. I think that as SC2 grows, players like Destiny, incontrol, idra, and other people like Djwheat, Day9, artosis, etc are going to become the michael jordans of SC2. If they play sc2 as pro gamers or as commentators, they will be the voice that sponsors like razor, steelseries, etc see first when they decide whether or not they will sponsor esports.
So, whether or not some of destiny's comments are ultimately right or wrong, we need to look at how such sponsors are going to view the specific language that was discussed on SotG. That kind of language could very easily affect whether or not certain sponsors choose to support SC2.
I know that Destiny's claim is that he doesn't want this kind of notoriety, or that he doesn't want to gain the kind of fans that are offended by his language, but I want to know if it's worth it to potentially hold back the whole SC2 E-sports scene, just to maintain his image among his current stream fans. I really dislike this stance, who says that SC2 or e-sports have to follow the path of every other given sport? Steelseries and Razer must sponsor e-sports if they want to sell products as that the demographic they are catering to. It would be terrible business sense to completely ignore e-sports. Lets face it Destiny is one of the most popular SC2 streamers and history tells us that controversy draws more attention than following the mold so Destiny will not be the one to hold back e-sports. Also e-sports does not need to follow the path of every other sport, it will need to forge its own path for success. The reasoning behind thinking it will follow the path of other sports is not because its a "sport" or that it isn't a sport. Its that it gains popularity among the public first, and just like any sport, it gains money both from its spectators and its sponsors. Certainly I would not argue that their paths are identical, but they surely move in the same general direction. Of course sponsors need to advertise to sell their products, but in the same way, esports, or any for-profit event or company needs people to want to advertise. You're merely defining how advertising works... Destiny draws attention among the internet community. As the community branches out when more people begin to sponsor and watch SC2, Destiny will be viewed by a wider audience, whether he asks for it or not. He IS a prominent voice. People may not be right in viewing what he does with a judgemental mindset, but regardless, there is a good chance that is what will happen. Is his type of language worth fighting for so much that we as a community should bother taking a setback just to save it? I think not? What's the point? What are people like himself sacrificing by bringing out a thesaurus for a few selective words in his common vocabulary?
Would also like to add to my above post that if there was a video released of someone with the notoriety of michael jordan playing basketball on a private court in his basement, and he dunked over someone saying "Oh yeah man i fucking raped that [insert random racial slurr], and this video was covered by sports center or something, that would have had a HUGE effect.
Whether he liked it or not, he WAS that popular voice. He WAS the one little kids mimicked when they wanted to become basketball players and needed a role model.
I'm not saying that Destiny will be the only one in that position, but he will certainly be up there. Last MLG, Destiny was nowhere near the best player there, but he was still mentioned on SotG beforehand, and still talked about in and out in the open bracket by the casters, along with a slelect group of other popular players. He is ALREADY a big part of the community and he will only become bigger if he manages to play on the same level as a huk, idra, select, naniwa etc. in the future.
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The idea that Steven might somehow hold back entire SC2 E-Sports scene, just because of his strong language... Is quite hilarious. Get real, please.
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On June 02 2011 01:03 Grenadieris wrote:
The idea that Steven might somehow hold back entire SC2 E-Sports scene, just because of his strong language... Is quite hilarious. Get real, please.
Well, I think you're thinking that I meant "halt progress entirely" That's not what I meant at all. I'm just thinking along the lines of... lets say... Tiger Woods... who lost a ton of sponsors, etc. after his whole scandal this last year.
There's no question in my mind. He's the face of professional golf. They talked a lot on ESPN about how much viewership they lost because of that whole thing.
Obviously its not the same situation, but it has enough similarities to where I again ask, as Geoff did on SotG last night... is it worth it?
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On June 02 2011 01:40 bode927 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:03 Grenadieris wrote:
The idea that Steven might somehow hold back entire SC2 E-Sports scene, just because of his strong language... Is quite hilarious. Get real, please. Well, I think you're thinking that I meant "halt progress entirely" That's not what I meant at all. I'm just thinking along the lines of... lets say... Tiger Woods... who lost a ton of sponsors, etc. after his whole scandal this last year. There's no question in my mind. He's the face of professional golf. They talked a lot on ESPN about how much viewership they lost because of that whole thing. Obviously its not the same situation, but it has enough similarities to where I again ask, as Geoff did on SotG last night... is it worth it?
No, it isn't similar at all. Tiger Woods was the best golfer in a mainstream sport with millions of viewers each week. Destiny isn't the best SC2 player, and he certainly isn't the most popular/most exposed.
This situation is similar to someone like John Daly in golf. I don't think many people stopped watching golf because of John Daly.
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On June 02 2011 01:47 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:40 bode927 wrote:On June 02 2011 01:03 Grenadieris wrote:
The idea that Steven might somehow hold back entire SC2 E-Sports scene, just because of his strong language... Is quite hilarious. Get real, please. Well, I think you're thinking that I meant "halt progress entirely" That's not what I meant at all. I'm just thinking along the lines of... lets say... Tiger Woods... who lost a ton of sponsors, etc. after his whole scandal this last year. There's no question in my mind. He's the face of professional golf. They talked a lot on ESPN about how much viewership they lost because of that whole thing. Obviously its not the same situation, but it has enough similarities to where I again ask, as Geoff did on SotG last night... is it worth it? No, it isn't similar at all. Tiger Woods was the best golfer in a mainstream sport with millions of viewers each week. Destiny isn't the best SC2 player, and he certainly isn't the most popular/most exposed. This situation is similar to someone like John Daly in golf. I don't think many people stopped watching golf because of John Daly.
I'm also talking about a starcraft 2 scene that is continuing to grow, and trying to break out of "nerd-only spectator mode" It CAN get to that point someday. It certainly already is in Korea.
As for how good Destiny at sc2 in comparison to tiger woods and golf... I've heard a lot of people talk about his potential. I know that when he first got a featured stream on TL he wasn't even CLOSE to top tier. At the last MLG he nearly made it out of the open bracket, and even since then from what I can tell he's improved a ton. Recently there was a 30+ minute game that he played against Select where he basically outplayed select. (featured on husky's youtube channel).
Yeah, I'm 99% sure that we will never see Tiger Woods style dominance from anyone in the SC2 scene... but lets be honest. Destiny is already a widely talked about community member without being ULTRA top tier. I think at some point, probably sooner than later, he will be up there in the top 25 or so non-koreans in the world. That... together with SC2's growing hype... will determine how much influence he ultimately has.
In a hypothetical, extreme situation, just to act as an example, lets pretend Destiny becomes the hands down best starcraft player in the world, and starcraft 2 becomes as big here as it is in korea. Will he change his use of language in places like his user stream in order to better represent the community?
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I think of streams like TV channels...Steven's is more like HBO, while InControl prefers to be more like FoxNews(says derogatory comments in a nice fashion).
I think a better example would be Rex Ryan (Coach of the New York Jets for those curious) he curses all the time, but he cannot curse in a press conference because he can get fined, but on the show Hard Knocks, he cursed all the time and nobody did anything about it, because it doesn't represent the NFL or FOX or NBC or anyone else other than HBO and Rex Ryan.
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after such a long debate, how does SOTG end? Well, you have incontrol with an "I'm InControl Bitch" picture up. I found that hypocritically amusing.
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On June 02 2011 02:24 ultoma wrote:
after such a long debate, how does SOTG end? Well, you have incontrol with an "I'm InControl Bitch" picture up. I found that hypocritically amusing.
As he said last night, saying "holy shit that was a nice attack" or "im incontrol bitch" is different than saying "I just raped that [insert racial slur here]"
all "bad words" but different kinds of bad words to be sure.
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On June 02 2011 02:01 bode927 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:47 ak1knight wrote:On June 02 2011 01:40 bode927 wrote:On June 02 2011 01:03 Grenadieris wrote:
The idea that Steven might somehow hold back entire SC2 E-Sports scene, just because of his strong language... Is quite hilarious. Get real, please. Well, I think you're thinking that I meant "halt progress entirely" That's not what I meant at all. I'm just thinking along the lines of... lets say... Tiger Woods... who lost a ton of sponsors, etc. after his whole scandal this last year. There's no question in my mind. He's the face of professional golf. They talked a lot on ESPN about how much viewership they lost because of that whole thing. Obviously its not the same situation, but it has enough similarities to where I again ask, as Geoff did on SotG last night... is it worth it? No, it isn't similar at all. Tiger Woods was the best golfer in a mainstream sport with millions of viewers each week. Destiny isn't the best SC2 player, and he certainly isn't the most popular/most exposed. This situation is similar to someone like John Daly in golf. I don't think many people stopped watching golf because of John Daly. I'm also talking about a starcraft 2 scene that is continuing to grow, and trying to break out of "nerd-only spectator mode" It CAN get to that point someday. It certainly already is in Korea. As for how good Destiny at sc2 in comparison to tiger woods and golf... I've heard a lot of people talk about his potential. I know that when he first got a featured stream on TL he wasn't even CLOSE to top tier. At the last MLG he nearly made it out of the open bracket, and even since then from what I can tell he's improved a ton. Recently there was a 30+ minute game that he played against Select where he basically outplayed select. (featured on husky's youtube channel). Yeah, I'm 99% sure that we will never see Tiger Woods style dominance from anyone in the SC2 scene... but lets be honest. Destiny is already a widely talked about community member without being ULTRA top tier. I think at some point, probably sooner than later, he will be up there in the top 25 or so non-koreans in the world. That... together with SC2's growing hype... will determine how much influence he ultimately has.
With all due respect to Destiny,
A) He will most likely never be the best player. Other players are only getting better and while nearly getting out of the MLG open bracket is impressive (and something I will certainly never be able to do) it's still a long way from winning any major tournament, and everyone else are getting better as well.
B) Even if he was the best player, he still most likely wouldn't be the most respected, due to his language. Any damage his language can do to the community is offset by guys like TLO doing charity streams and other nice things. The only one he is really damaging is himself.
On June 02 2011 02:01 bode927 wrote:
In a hypothetical, extreme situation, just to act as an example, lets pretend Destiny becomes the hands down best starcraft player in the world, and starcraft 2 becomes as big here as it is in korea. Will he change his use of language in places like his user stream in order to better represent the community?
In his stream no lol
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On June 02 2011 02:01 bode927 wrote:
In a hypothetical, extreme situation, just to act as an example, lets pretend Destiny becomes the hands down best starcraft player in the world, and starcraft 2 becomes as big here as it is in korea. Will he change his use of language in places like his user stream in order to better represent the community?
In his stream no lol
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Exactly what I mean... Even if he did get to a point where he was the best and most infuential member of the sc2 community, I doubt he would clean up his act to be like a TLO, Sheth, incontrol, day 9, whatever... I think in doing that he would disregard some responsibility, albeit not asked for.
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On June 02 2011 03:19 bode927 wrote:
Exactly what I mean... Even if he did get to a point where he was the best and most infuential member of the sc2 community, I doubt he would clean up his act to be like a TLO, Sheth, incontrol, day 9, whatever... I think in doing that he would disregard some responsibility, albeit not asked for.
And I'm saying he won't get to that point with the way he acts. He could be far and away the best SC2 player but he will never be more influential than someone like Day9 because of this stigma he has. Quite frankly I don't think he would want to be the most influential person any way.
I would also like to say that the likelihood of a person's first experience with SC2 being on Destiny's stream is extremely slim. Think about it, how likely is it for someone to hear about SC2 and then go straight to Justin.tv? or for someone to be browsing Justin.tv and click on Destiny's stream without knowing about SC2. In the end of the day the amount of people he is actually alienating from SC2 altogether is very small.
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On June 02 2011 08:59 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 03:19 bode927 wrote:
Exactly what I mean... Even if he did get to a point where he was the best and most infuential member of the sc2 community, I doubt he would clean up his act to be like a TLO, Sheth, incontrol, day 9, whatever... I think in doing that he would disregard some responsibility, albeit not asked for. And I'm saying he won't get to that point with the way he acts. He could be far and away the best SC2 player but he will never be more influential than someone like Day9 because of this stigma he has. Quite frankly I don't think he would want to be the most influential person any way. I would also like to say that the likelihood of a person's first experience with SC2 being on Destiny's stream is extremely slim. Think about it, how likely is it for someone to hear about SC2 and then go straight to Justin.tv? or for someone to be browsing Justin.tv and click on Destiny's stream without knowing about SC2. In the end of the day the amount of people he is actually alienating from SC2 altogether is very small.
He admitted himself that he recognizes that certain roles require certain rules, so if he ever becomes big then I'm sure he will have the common sense to act appropriately. Either way, SC2 is a videogame, and attracts people from this demographic, who are extremely likely to not care about these kind of issues. Corporate sponsorship or large scale business ventures are another matter, and if the 'people with the pocketbooks,' realize that sc2 is a lucrative field, then there will be some tacit agreements about language and such, and things will pretty much regulate themselves.
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On June 02 2011 03:19 bode927 wrote:
Exactly what I mean... Even if he did get to a point where he was the best and most infuential member of the sc2 community, I doubt he would clean up his act to be like a TLO, Sheth, incontrol, day 9, whatever... I think in doing that he would disregard some responsibility, albeit not asked for.
When he's streaming he's not responsible for representing esports, he's responsible for representing himself. If people don't like what they hear, they should turn off his stream and never tune into it again, period. If someone is going to disregard Sc2 or e-sports or derive an opinion of it based solely off what they hear from Destiny's stream they're stupid. He's one guy amongst hundreds delivering content for the community.
If Destiny does something for a big tournament like MLG then he would certainly be expected to act according to the standards and expectations of the tourney. When he's on his own stream doing his own thing it's ridiculous to lay any responsibility of censorship on him.
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Ya, if you listen to Destiny casting for the justin.tv invitational or something like that, he's not swearing. Its just on his own stream
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While I absolutely am anti-censorship, this is not the same thing. Destiny is not being censored and does not have to. What this is about is responsibility. The problem with his argument is that he thinks that since he does not claim responsibility or spokesmanship as a public figure, the fact that he's streaming in a public venue/medium does not grant him responsibility and spokesmanship as a public figure. This is false. If he were to stream a private stream that he could control the viewership, then he's controlling the amount of responsibility he has and can decide the standards and values he wants to uphold. He still is completely in his own right to decide what standards he has now, but that being said, in a public stream where he cannot control who views the content, he is choosing to ignore responsibility due to his moral stance within this public realm whether or not viewers can choose to stop watching or not. This is the problem. He is not acknowledging, or ignoring, the responsibilities that comes with streaming public content. Nothing against it, but that's where his logic does not cover. All this being said, do what you do, we love it.
Edit: Grammar and stuff.
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Destiny can be a funny player even without cussing, his attitude and choice of words (not including swearing that is) is still pretty hilarious. His voice is good, his play is not horrifying (and to an extent actually decent).
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On June 02 2011 10:12 Classysaurus wrote:
While I absolutely am anti-censorship, this is not the same thing. Destiny is not being censored and does not have to. What this is about is responsibility. The problem with his argument is that he thinks that since he does not claim responsibility or spokesmanship as a public figure, the fact that he's streaming in a public venue/medium does not grant him responsibility and spokesmanship as a public figure. This is false. If he were to stream a private stream that he could control the viewership, then he's controlling the amount of responsibility he has and can decide the standards and values he wants to uphold. He still is completely in his own right to decide what standards he has now, but that being said, in a public stream where he cannot control who views the content, he is choosing to ignore responsibility due to his moral stance within this public realm whether or not viewers can choose to stop watching or not. This is the problem. He is not acknowledging, or ignoring, the responsibilities that comes with streaming public content. Nothing against it, but that's where his logic does not cover. All this being said, do what you do, we love it.
Edit: Grammar and stuff.
Catering to his viewers is something that's optional; providing content appropriate to his entire viewer base is definitely not Destiny's responsibility. His audience should adjust to his stream, not the other way around. If what Destiny does / says offends someone, they should clearly turn off the stream. If a little kid watches Destiny's stream, that's a parenting responsibility. Destiny isn't a spokesman, an ambassador of starcraft, or a prominent public figure by any means. He's a starcraft player who provides a stream with a unique sense of humor. If that type of humor or content isn't your thing, then don't watch, there's plenty of other content available.
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On June 02 2011 11:17 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Catering to his viewers is something that's optional; providing content appropriate to his entire viewer base is definitely not Destiny's responsibility. His audience should adjust to his stream, not the other way around. If what Destiny does / says offends someone, they should clearly turn off the stream. If a little kid watches Destiny's stream, that's a parenting responsibility. Destiny isn't a spokesman, an ambassador of starcraft, or a prominent public figure by any means. He's a starcraft player who provides a stream with a unique sense of humor. If that type of humor or content isn't your thing, then don't watch, there's plenty of other content available.
I never said it's his responsibility to do that and I explicitly said he didn't have to do a thing so I don't know why you're stating what you're stating. I also never said anything about what his viewers should do or not do. I even went on to say I enjoy his content. Conclusion: you don't understand my point. All I'm saying is his streaming in public vs in private is what gives him responsibility. I am fully aware that he is not a self proclaimed spokesperson or ambassador. As a public personality, though, he has the responsibilities people have when they decide to speak on a public medium. There happens to actually be moral obligations that arise when you speak to the public. And he is speaking to the public. Sorry to burst your bubble, but despite the fact his viewers can choose to not watch if they find something offensive, that doesn't mean that his viewership is not in fact the public. Thus, those moral obligations apply to him to some extent. Now there are no laws, and free speech is the way of the internet, and I want to emphasize that I agree with those two facts, and reemphasize that I am for anti-censorship... in case you didn't catch it from my last post... so Destiny is not doing anything out of his rights, which is how it should be. So again, the problem where he has not provided a stance that covers his logic on other than him saying "I disagree" or "It's against my philosophy" without accounting for his actions, is that he is ignoring the responsibilities of moral obligations that come with speaking in a public medium. I don't get what's so hard to accept about that. His stance is that the moral obligations don't exist for him due to his lack of claiming such obligations as his own. But the world doesn't work like that. That's like saying water won't freeze in my house because I don't claim to believe in the physics. Those responsibilities are still there. Am I saying things correctly?
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On June 03 2011 03:50 Classysaurus wrote:
All I'm saying is his streaming in public vs in private is what gives him responsibility. I am fully aware that he is not a self proclaimed spokesperson or ambassador. As a public personality, though, he has the responsibilities people have when they decide to speak on a public medium. There happens to actually be moral obligations that arise when you speak to the public. And he is speaking to the public. Sorry to burst your bubble, but despite the fact his viewers can choose to not watch if they find something offensive, that doesn't mean that his viewership is not in fact the public. Thus, those moral obligations apply to him to some extent.
This is complete bullshit.
There are people wanting to watch gameplay of a person who isn't afraid of using the word "fag".
Destiny delivers such content.
He isn't the president giving an official speech; he is providing a product (his stream) which you aren't forced to buy.
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y u mad tho?
User was warned for this post
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EPT
