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Don't post in this thread to say "gay gamers are like everyone else, why do they have a special thread?" It is something that has been posted numerous times, and this isn't the place for that discussion.
For regular posters, don't quote the trolls. |
On October 23 2013 11:57 Drekkonis wrote:Are we talking about the same #gteamliquid ? I must be blind or just ignorant but I am pretty sure 5% of discussions in that chat is about esports/starcraft, 19 % general geekery topics, 1% Zaro's british politics and 75% about hot guys. I can't remember the last time anybody mentioned anything about women let alone hate speech against them. Why don't you just show the names, I bet its Axero, he is super racist  !
Psssh you know you want my booty! Racism is too hard for me to do, I fail at it.
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Oh good lord avery take a damn chill pill. It's so hard to know when you're seriously offended and when you're just being snarky because you turn into a rage fueled white knight at the drop of a hat.
In our little corner of private chat where we know who can see what we're saying and it isn't permanent text on a forum wall some off the cuff stuff is gonna get said. The purpose of our little corner isn't to be a discussion about tolerance...hell it's purpose isn't even to be a bastion of tolerance. It's just our little corner while we shoot the shit and talk about dick and starcraft.
If you're offended by hyperbole, too fucking bad. You fly off the handle too often for me to take your rage seriously. Calm tits, learn to let the small stuff go (even if you do think it's heinously offensive), and then when the big stuff comes along we'll hear more than crying when you express your frustration.
If you don't immediately identify the phrase "I hate all women" as grossly hyperbolic then you need to seriously reevaluate your attitude when you come into IRC.
Now if you'll excuse me, my porn just finished downloading so I'm gonna go watch a muscle daddy split a twink in twain.
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LOL great ending to that post 
But I agree with klondike...avery you need to learn how to differentiate between people who seriously mean what they say and those who are just exaggerating, and are having a clearly emotionally charged response to a tough time a woman gave that person at work. When human beings get angry, often they say things they don't mean; they generalize, and attack women in general if they've noticed a similar pattern (this happens amongst women against guys who have just broken up with them as well, saying that all guys are lousy or cheaters etc.). Its nothing to get worked up about, its standard human behaviour that people lose control and start making these sorts of comments when they get upset.
So you're not really reacting to true sexism here, just to this person's rage that has taken an 'inappropriate' form. Of course it would be better if he didn't generalize and suggest all women should die, but he clearly doesn't mean what he says (otherwise he's a psychopath). So that's why most people feel you're missing the point, because you're reacting very superficially to what is being written but not truly understanding what is being said. If you understand the situation on an emotional level, you wouldn't see any sexism or anything else; you would just see people exaggerating and probably joking around to let off some steam.
Anyway I'm just judging off the chat logs you posted, I've never actually visited that chat (I just visit this thread to take my mind of my arduous schoolwork ). Perhaps some stuff is actually over the line, but I suspect that if you reacted so strongly to those chat logs you probably (at least in my humble opinion) don't have a good emotional understanding of human beings and how they react when they're angry.
Of course it would be a different matter if they were making public statements in the media or out loud in a group; but they aren't doing that and likely never would because they know it could be inadvertently harmful to others, even if they don't mean it. As far as I know the chat is just a place where people go to relax and talk to friends, far from that type of public forum where you could inadvertently hurt someone's feelings. Except for yours of course . But hopefully you aren't so hurt after reflecting on things a little!
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Pretty disappointed in the last 3 pages.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 23 2013 15:53 EatThePath wrote:
Pretty disappointed in the last 3 pages.
Have a cookie
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On October 23 2013 12:21 Klondikebar wrote:
If you don't immediately identify the phrase "I hate all women" as grossly hyperbolic then you need to seriously reevaluate your attitude when you come into IRC.
Of course "I hate all women" is a blatantly hyperbolic statement that's not meant seriously, but I'm still a bit confused why a statement like that gets defended around here. I mean, someone saying "That's so gay!" is most likely neither serious nor homophobic, either, but that doesn't mean that a statement like that deserves to be defended and justified.
Both statements are said by people who don't think too much when they say them. It happens. All the time. And the people themselves are not bad people (usually). But in my humble opinion, the correct reaction to this would not be to say "Hey, it's normal venting, deal with it." but "Yeah, that was pretty stupid, but people are stupid sometimes. No need to make a big deal out of it."
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Who is going to MLG columbus?
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On October 23 2013 19:24 Conti wrote:
Both statements are said by people who don't think too much when they say them. It happens. All the time. And the people themselves are not bad people (usually). But in my humble opinion, the correct reaction to this would not be to say "Hey, it's normal venting, deal with it." but "Yeah, that was pretty stupid, but people are stupid sometimes. No need to make a big deal out of it."
Thanks, Conti. It's encouraging to see your replies, even if it's basic and sensible stuff you're saying, it's drowned out by a lot of whining and pleas to silence any sort of rational discussion.
People say stupid shit all the time, but the majority of responses here are kind of pathetic. It happens a lot: an effort to silence and discredit someone by claiming they are being "too emotional", "crying", or "over-reacting". There's a brigade of IRC users who have shown up to fight about this topic, so perhaps the emotions ARE running high. Which is fine. It doesn't, as some may think, devalue or discredit their position. It certainly shouldn't be used to discount everything I've said.
There are some double standards going on, and it's both sad and disappointing. There's a pretty large uproar and a lot of objections to what I've said. But this is basic, simple shit, and both racist and misogynistic remarks run rampant across all corners of the internet. If it makes someone feel better to believe I'm curled up in a ball, crying and screaming like someone just shot my puppy, then I'm not surprised. But it doesn't make you a better person, it doesn't advance your position, and it doesn't make you look cool or above-it-all. Forums - and by extension IRC - can quickly become a hyper-masculine shitfest where people thump their chests and accuse others of being over-emotional little girls, throwing a tantrum when discourse doesn't fit into their rigid world view.
Women get this treatment all the time. If I care one ounce about what I'm talking about, it's chalked up to my emotions. If I come off as cool and detached, I'm just a cold bitch. Men and women are both responsible for perpetuating this attitude, and are rarely if ever aware that what they are doing is simply not cool.
It's not that I take any single incident "too seriously", or that I'm not intelligent enough to understand hyperbole. I'm identifying an overarching trend in chat that (I'm sure) isn't detected or noticed by many others. Since no one has done so before, I think pointing it out is the right thing to do. Simply put, it seems that the people who are saying these "off the cuff remarks" are the ones being overly-defensive and emotional, and seem to have far too much pride to say they've made problematic remarks. It's not the 1940's, and racism and misogyny are increasingly nebulous and difficult to define.
People can continue to jump in this thread to defend their god-given right to talk shit, and take turns trashing me, and I'd be far from surprised. What would be amazing, is if someone wasn't afraid to acknowledge that there *just might* be a larger theme that they are playing a role in. This is a chat room that usually has 20-30 people in it, and I'm the only woman who's there pretty much every day. You'll just have to trust me when I say that things may look a little different to me, than they do to one of the dudes.
It's pretty easy to fire up your internet battlestations and shout at people who take issue with the status quo. It's tired, it's formulaic, and it's predictable. I've been a member of a few LGBT communities, and the Teamliquid community is the only one that is thoroughly dominated by men. The marginalization of women's opinions goes a long way toward removing the L and the T. Maybe I'm wrong though, perhaps it is simply a "gay male community", and I need to sit on the sidelines and learn to shut up and let the boys play.
I play Brood War/SC2 for hours a day. I have been doing so for 12 years. I chat in IRC even more, and I've spent a great deal of time in #gteamliquid. If the IRC and forum were dominated by women, I can guarantee the tenor of this conversation would be shockingly different. Unfortunately, no one wants to break their circle-jerk for a split second to acknowledge, that - perhaps maybe, just a little bit - someone may fit into a greater pattern of antagonism toward a racial minority, women, disabled people, trans* individuals, or other marginalized groups. If it's plain-as-day homophobia, everyone would be cheering me on. I make one post in over a year of regular use, and my entire personality is called out as wrong and offensive.
There's more women on this planet than men, and there's plenty of reasons there's a maximum of 1 or 2 on IRC at any given time. I've seen IRC and forum regulars freak out about far less important shit: console wars, SC2 viewership, GTA release dates, etc. but it's incredibly rare there's a vocal outrage against someone who calls bullshit in one of those situations. If you're like me, you can't be bothered to read some of the rants on Teamliquid, so feel free to use your imagination here. I'm sure you get my point.
Don't take this as a personal attack, because it's not. It's an attempt to raise awareness about an issue that may not effect you, or that would otherwise go unnoticed or overlooked. If you aren't a person of color or a woman, it's easy and excusable if you don't see a year's worth of "off the cuff comments" or "hyperbole" as anything but isolated incidents. Each of them alone are easy to excuse, but it clearly takes a lot more courage to say it's a problem than to thump your chest and proclaim how hilarious yet misunderstood white men on the internet are. (Sarcasm, try not to lose your mind over this one.)
You fly off the handle too often for me to take your rage seriously. Calm tits, learn to let the small stuff go
Again, it's not a matter of rage - it's IRC, and as many people can attest, people act out and say crazy or stupid shit all the time. Myself included. There's no reason to use gendered insults here - chill your balls and shit, brohaim. Flying into a rage is a personal schtick of mine, because I think it's funny and it makes for some good popcorn reading. Sue me. But this is something different, and I wish the response weren't the same tired shit you see on Reddit. Obviously, this is something I do care about, coming from people I care about. There's a good reason that I didn't drop anyone's names, or single anyone out when I decided to post. It's not about you, and it's not about any one person.
Going forward, if people can acknowledge that some of the things they say are problematic, while understanding that their right to speak freely isn't under any threat (if you think it is, think again) it'd be wonderful and comforting. But far from it, most people are insistent to play up internet tropes of hyper-masculine aggression and flame-baiting than participate in any sort of intellectual discussion. If you really feel so privileged that you can say anything you want, and that no one ever has any right to question it, then you've got bigger issues.
Maybe I need to include more smilies, anime gifs, and giggles in my posts to please the dudes of GTL. If this kind of shit makes you feel less threatened, than just pretend there's a "heehee :D" after all my sentences. Normally, I love all your company quite a lot, and it's frustrating and sad to see how quickly the discourse devolves into bullying, name-calling, and dogpiling.
At the very least, I can tell myself that people will remember these posts, and perhaps someday it'll affect some positive change, and perhaps improve the social climate for racial minorities, women, and others who don't fit the predominant gay white male configuration of GTL. Maybe that's asking too much, I don't know. I'm glad I got your attention, and hope you gave this some thought.
-Avery
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Good, you've had your say. Just go away now.
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On October 23 2013 22:14 jarrydesque wrote:
Good, you've had your say. Just go away now.
Quit the bullying.
User was banned for this post (Stick to one account).
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Did you copy that stuff directly from SRS?
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On October 23 2013 22:21 avery wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 22:14 jarrydesque wrote:
Good, you've had your say. Just go away now. Quit the bullying.
He's not bullying you're being completely obnoxious and sprouting ur feminist ideology all over the place derailing the thread and getting on everyone's nerves, asking you to leave because of that is not bullying.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Hi Avery,
I understand what you're trying to do. However, I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Trying to change a social norm by publicity doesn't work. 20 years ago, it was acceptable to call anyone a faggot, but it isn't anymore. Something like that doesn't change over night. . Had any of us posted a bleeding heart rant on how the word faggot is demeaning during that time, we would have gotten the exact same treatment you're getting right now. You see, playing the "that's offensive to me!" card doesn't work. Because being offended is a weak argument, just like how conservatives saying that they find gay marriage offensive. Nobody cares.
Rather, it's a better approach to inform your close friends on how you feel on the matter, they will, in turn, inform others. That's how public opinion change, when enough people know someone close who feels strongly about an issue.
TLDR: Don't try to fight this war yourself. Let your friends know how you feel and leave the fighting to them.
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I am way too lighthearted to take these last few pages seriously, but this image is by far the best thing that came from all this :
This will be used again
P.S I knew it was you Adam!
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On October 23 2013 21:53 zyce wrote:There's no reason to use gendered insults here - chill your balls and shit, brohaim.
I just want to point out that it is a well documented fact that when I refer to tits I mean pecs...why on earth would a gay man ever talk about womens' breasts? I like big firm muscular mantits.
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I've had mixed feelings about this whole episode.
Maybe just be comfortable with the fact the IRC is shit, and there are people in it who are shit.
Its a boys club captured in the heat of the broment, and while that can be good some times, it also has its negatives.
So yeah, I think its admirable of you to try and change the way people conduct themselves for the better, I'm not sure this battle is worth it.
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Lots of creeper comments coming out of people...strange to see this side of you all. I have to remind myself gays are just like anyone else, they can be nasty, brutish, and primitive.
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On October 23 2013 21:36 Zaros wrote:
Who is going to MLG columbus?
I am , but are you?
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On October 24 2013 03:08 Drekkonis wrote:I am , but are you?
If you want to pay for my flight then yes.
Edit: Would Need £469 and a place to stay lol
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EPT
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