EPTStill, we got em.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/886235957
Dota 2 QQ thread - Page 1161
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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. | ||
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FetTerBender
Germany1393 Posts
Still, we got em. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/886235957 | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
On September 10 2014 00:44 HellNino wrote: Why are people in pub so much against trilanes? A lot of games would be waaay easier if people knew how to play T-T because most pubs (at least in my level, <4k) don't actually know how to trilane. Lane equalibirum is a fiction, single pulling is legit and ganking mid is out of the question. Basically 3 of your heroes get shit exp and farm. You basically rely on the enemy lane feeding in order to succeed. | ||
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
On September 10 2014 00:44 HellNino wrote: Why are people in pub so much against trilanes? A lot of games would be waaay easier if people knew how to play T-T I don't want to trilane in a pub ever. Since i play carry 99% of the times, everytime i wind up in a trilane on a pub it's me lasthitting and two supports standing behind me occasionally trying to harass aka not zonig, not pulling and just leeching XP. Think i've lost like every single game i've been in a trilane. | ||
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
On September 10 2014 16:47 hooahah wrote: because most pubs (at least in my level, <4k) don't actually know how to trilane. Lane equalibirum is a fiction, single pulling is legit and ganking mid is out of the question. Basically 3 of your heroes get shit exp and farm. You basically rely on the enemy lane feeding in order to succeed. Oh god this. Everyone expects mid to rape his lane with no help and then come fix their lanes. The 1 in 100 games were there's a rotating support that ganks mid we stomp the game. Proper roaming supports flat out win games but i am done trying to explain this to people in my games-.- | ||
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Zexion
Sweden971 Posts
On September 10 2014 16:04 FetTerBender wrote: Difficult start of the game when our Necrophos (who had to take offlane solo because Doom went woods) gave the enemy PA a 4-0 headstart. Didnt help that I as Void made that a 5-0. Still, we got em. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/886235957 Where's the QQ? Sounds like a pretty good dota moment to me :p | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2723 Posts
On September 10 2014 17:03 unkkz wrote: Oh god this. Everyone expects mid to rape his lane with no help and then come fix their lanes. The 1 in 100 games were there's a rotating support that ganks mid we stomp the game. Proper roaming supports flat out win games but i am done trying to explain this to people in my games-.- Every single part of the trilane is important; that's what's frustrating. Harassing/zoning support doesn't zone or fucks up lane momentum by taking creep aggro? Enemy offlane gets experience and can later contest the carry's farm. Carry doesn't put any effort whatsoever into controlling lane momentum? Wave naturally pushes to enemy tower, enemy offlane gets exp and can later contest the carry's farm. Stacking/pulling support messes up a pull / single pulls at a shitty time / pulls at a shitty time? Enemy offlane gets to contest/leech pull, carry burns regen because of tanking creeps, enemy offlane can later contest carry's farm. Something went wrong and supports roam anyways / trilane dissolves? Welp, carry's going to have a hard time farming now against a lane that's basically turning into a 1v1 where the carry's opponent quite possibly has a level advantage and is a strong solo. People don't like trilaning in pubs because the odds that you get three people in one lane and none of them fuck their job up is abysmally low. I don't even like trilaning in most of my 5 stacks because most of the carries I play with don't understand that controlling lane momentum is actually largely their responsibility, and neutral pulls are not the only way to do it. | ||
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HellNino
France156 Posts
On September 10 2014 17:19 Fleetfeet wrote: Every single part of the trilane is important; that's what's frustrating. Harassing/zoning support doesn't zone or fucks up lane momentum by taking creep aggro? Enemy offlane gets experience and can later contest the carry's farm. Carry doesn't put any effort whatsoever into controlling lane momentum? Wave naturally pushes to enemy tower, enemy offlane gets exp and can later contest the carry's farm. Stacking/pulling support messes up a pull / single pulls at a shitty time / pulls at a shitty time? Enemy offlane gets to contest/leech pull, carry burns regen because of tanking creeps, enemy offlane can later contest carry's farm. Something went wrong and supports roam anyways / trilane dissolves? Welp, carry's going to have a hard time farming now against a lane that's basically turning into a 1v1 where the carry's opponent quite possibly has a level advantage and is a strong solo. People don't like trilaning in pubs because the odds that you get three people in one lane and none of them fuck their job up is abysmally low. I don't even like trilaning in most of my 5 stacks because most of the carries I play with don't understand that controlling lane momentum is actually largely their responsibility, and neutral pulls are not the only way to do it. Well first of all I play only supports or mids, so having 2 supports in lane rarely happens in my game since I have a rough sense of what to do. I get your point, but I think this is a bad argument. Apart from the 2 supports leeching exp, all of the above applies to a dual lane aswell. Even worse a dual lane helps the enemy offlane even more IMO, since it's easier for him to get exp and come contest your carry later. And most of the time, having a 2nd hero on the hardlane doesn't really give you an advantage, since it slows down the exp of your offlane, who is supposed to rotate frequently when he gets to a certain level. It's also easier to gank mid if both of your supports are in the same place at the same time. I really do think that with a little commnication, you can pull off a decent (but not perfect) trilane, even at medium-ish MMR. Although at least one of the people in it should know what he's doing (preferably a support IMO), and the other heroes in the lane need to listen to his advices, which is maybe the real difficulty here. | ||
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FetTerBender
Germany1393 Posts
On September 10 2014 17:08 Zexion wrote: Where's the QQ? Sounds like a pretty good dota moment to me :p Started posting when the PA was 4-0 and i gave her the 5-0 with my Void. Turned out we somehow still were able to catch her. Dont know how they threw it with the hardcarry fed that early. Damn those unpredictable pub games! | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On September 10 2014 18:30 HellNino wrote: Well first of all I play only supports or mids, so having 2 supports in lane rarely happens in my game since I have a rough sense of what to do. I get your point, but I think this is a bad argument. Apart from the 2 supports leeching exp, all of the above applies to a dual lane aswell. Even worse a dual lane helps the enemy offlane even more IMO, since it's easier for him to get exp and come contest your carry later. And most of the time, having a 2nd hero on the hardlane doesn't really give you an advantage, since it slows down the exp of your offlane, who is supposed to rotate frequently when he gets to a certain level. It's also easier to gank mid if both of your supports are in the same place at the same time. I really do think that with a little commnication, you can pull off a decent (but not perfect) trilane, even at medium-ish MMR. Although at least one of the people in it should know what he's doing (preferably a support IMO), and the other heroes in the lane need to listen to his advices, which is maybe the real difficulty here. Two supports leeching XP is a lot, lot worse than one support leeching XP. Slowing down the XP of your offlane is largely meaningless in the average pub because although they are "supposed to rotate" they rarely do. Supports ganking mid happens so rarely that it can almost be totally discounted. In the matchmaking world of people being unable to zone, people being unable to last hit properly and people single pulling camps you're lucky to get one part of a trilane working, let alone all three. Its a lot easier to put a carry safelane with support to make sure he/she doesn't die straight up, a solid mid in the middle (ideally one that doesn't have to snowball too much to be good because god knows you can't rely on ganks to work) and another carry-ish hero offlane with another support, one of which ideally has an initiation ability. Or possibly a hero in the jungle with a strong solo offlaner. Nobody has to do anything clever and all that needs to happen is farm and not die rather than the relatively intricate nuances of a trilane. It can work but its pretty unlikely and its rarely worth the effort. Also whenever I see a support single pulling it makes me want to punch something. I don't know WHERE this obsession with it comes from but its been endemic for two or three months now whereas before people would either stack or just not bother. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
Most of the times I go through with it, it ends as a tower dive and we die. Mids don't help, really. They don't understand that supports are there to help and what they should do. Normally they just nuke the wave to the other side and the other mid nuke then right back. It's just terrible | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
The problem was I was almost higher level than the duo in lane, the carry couldn't last hit under the tower and the enemy had a jungler , so they pulled more out of the map despite me getting triple pull through every time! The few creeps that did make it to the lane the offline leeches the experience, because even with the pulling they didn't zone out the offlaner. We lost the game horribly with me, the Cm having almost the same farm as the free farm wraith king. And he did ask me to pull, but couldn't last hit. | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
Seriously, if your hero can do it, GANK MID. You don't even need to be successful, as long as you make the enemy mid scared whenever you're off the map, you've created space for your team. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On September 10 2014 21:49 hooahah wrote: Some of my biggest wins were games where I ganked mid as the support and the mid player just snowballed hardcore from there. I love Earthshaker for this, his Fissure is godly for ganking mid. Seriously, if your hero can do it, GANK MID. You don't even need to be successful, as long as you make the enemy mid scared whenever you're off the map, you've created space for your team. 7 times out of ten my mid just goes under the tower and kills himself even if we manage to kill the enemy mid. 90%+ don't know how to reset tower aggro, can't control their lanes and then complain I can't gank . No shut Sherlock, if you can't play mid don't expect me to win it for you. | ||
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HellNino
France156 Posts
We then manage to win team fights, but ou LC throw her life away 1v5 when they all respawn, without having buyback...So we lost, yay | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
On September 10 2014 17:03 unkkz wrote: Oh god this. Everyone expects mid to rape his lane with no help and then come fix their lanes. The 1 in 100 games were there's a rotating support that ganks mid we stomp the game. Proper roaming supports flat out win games but i am done trying to explain this to people in my games-.- If you have to explain something to a pub normally it's a lost cause. They either tell you "stfu" immediately (at which point I begin considering reporting+abandoning) or has no idea what to do and there's no way you could type it out in a reasonably short period of time. Anyways pubs think it should always be mid ganking even when they are losing lanes, regardless of what hero it is. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
I went through a phase where I would buy smoke first whenever our lineup had two disables so we could go for a mid gank to open (as Rhasta most secondary disables are relatively easy to set up) but teammates would either execute it so poorly or completely ignore me often enough it just wasn't worth trying any more. QQ trench tier. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
On September 11 2014 03:50 FHDH wrote: In pubs you have to do a risk analysis on attempting to play Real Dota and trilanes are high-risk with a poor expected payout in pubs. I have observed a relatively high expected payout as a trilane support. I've made my arguments in another thread, but the takeaway is that there's a MMR window where one trilane support who knows what she's doing (which can be arranged above a certain MMR) can abuse a dual lane who don't know how to handle a 2v3 (which is very common below a certain, higher MMR). | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2723 Posts
On September 10 2014 18:30 HellNino wrote: Well first of all I play only supports or mids, so having 2 supports in lane rarely happens in my game since I have a rough sense of what to do. I get your point, but I think this is a bad argument. Apart from the 2 supports leeching exp, all of the above applies to a dual lane aswell. Even worse a dual lane helps the enemy offlane even more IMO, since it's easier for him to get exp and come contest your carry later. And most of the time, having a 2nd hero on the hardlane doesn't really give you an advantage, since it slows down the exp of your offlane, who is supposed to rotate frequently when he gets to a certain level. It's also easier to gank mid if both of your supports are in the same place at the same time. I really do think that with a little commnication, you can pull off a decent (but not perfect) trilane, even at medium-ish MMR. Although at least one of the people in it should know what he's doing (preferably a support IMO), and the other heroes in the lane need to listen to his advices, which is maybe the real difficulty here. The difference is that it's really easy for a trilane to lose their lane through poor execution, and that amounts to more than half of your team not being where they should be. Dual lanes, while just as easy to execute poorly, are likely to result in fewer of your heroes being set back, and not being set back as much as a lost trilane would. So it's 1) Trilanes "have to" win their lane in order to be efficient. 2) Some dual lane setups can challenge or outright beat inefficient trilanes 3 Trilanes are harder to execute than dual lanes. That isn't to say "never trilane ever", but especially in pubs I'd usually rather 2 1 2 than 3 1 1. But that's enough discussion in the QQ thread! Fuck faceless void. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On September 11 2014 04:04 Buckyman wrote: I have observed a relatively high expected payout as a trilane support. I've made my arguments in another thread, but the takeaway is that there's a MMR window where one trilane support who knows what she's doing (which can be arranged above a certain MMR) can abuse a dual lane who don't know how to handle a 2v3 (which is very common below a certain, higher MMR). Totally hero-dependent I'm sure. But you make a good point; if you are good at it and want to execute it it's not impossible you just have to feel confident in your ability to make it work with your hero given a second support who is less competent. | ||
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
Anyone who picks tinker should just be banned. Don't think any other hero can snowball that hard. Game is really completely fucking over by 15 minutes, not even fucking Newbee can win this game by 15 min, so entire team just afks fountain and ask them to finish. Nope. Fountain dive us for 15 minutes while trashtalking. | ||
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