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On February 24 2013 09:07 Cragus wrote:
In the Visage guide, I don't think you should say that Aghanims is purely for the stun. I'd agree with not suggesting it for people that are having trouble with familiar micro, but it also gives you an absolutely absurd amount of burst damage, especially if you are solo mid and can get it relatively early.
Brewmaster's builds are a bit lane dependent. If you're mid and go bottle, the early stats is usually unnecessary and you can put your points into other skills (safelane with competent supports the same is generall true since you won't depend on your spells as much). Similarly, the stout shield is usually unnecessary since Brew has very high starting armour, plenty of hp, and can always just put a point in brawler to help with physical harass. AC and Vlads are also good additional situational/extension items on him.
NP should probably have Necro 3 in his situational items as it's one of the best items in the game for a split pushing prophet (the same is true for Lycan as well). I would consider removing Aghas from the NP situational items because the situations for it are very rare, and if someone is in need of a basic guide to NP, they probably are going to screw over their team with it.
Someone just suggested that I don't put Aghanim's for Visage whatsoever, This is my medium to say that Aghanim's is ok, but reconsider other items given that three familiars for that cost is not that good unless you can be good with the stuns.
The Brewmaster build states its for Laning, not middle. I'll add AC to situational! thanks!
I'll swap NP items situational.
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Treant protector in lane needs a second level of natures guise at level 3. lane support treant should have leech guise guise armor leech overgrowth as his 1-6 skill build. offlane treant is guise armor guise leech armor overgrowth. Lane support treant also would use an urn early as opposed to a soul ring. while soul ring lets you spam, spamming isn't exactly your goal. treants presence in lane is to help set up kills for a carry through bodyblocks and his slow, not to harass another player down with leech seed. usually you would guise after pulling a camp and walk into lane behind an enemy, slow them and attack and bodyblock as much as you can while the carry beats on the guy. once you get your urn arcanes you roam and carry tps and try to assist every lane you can with overgrowth to defend towers.
offlane treant does a similar thing but with maxed armor to keep towers up until his allies can tp in to protect them. as well as getting necro 3 eventually.
the second level of natures guise makes the spell good, its simply bad with only one point.
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I can't show varied builds in one guide, I also do not have enough room to write the differentials between offlane/laning items of Treant and its builds.
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On February 24 2013 09:28 Torte de Lini wrote:
I can't show varied builds in one guide, I also do not have enough room to write the differentials between offlane/laning items of Treant and its builds.
i stated both because i wasn't sure exactly what your guide was attempting. either way a couple changes could be made so i listed both roles.
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Yes, but I can't choose one or the other, I need a standard build that plays Treant properly in general throughout the game.
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Go ahead and make the guide for lane support then. Offlane is a tad stronger of a treant, but i don't think many players would love the concept of hide in xp range until you get to lvl 4+. Treant is a hero that fufills either a 4 position or a 3 position on your team he in general gets items like urn arcanes necronomicon with a late game refresher. either build needs natures guide to be lvl 2 by level 3 just because the spell doesn't get too useful until then.
Maxing leech seed after level 4 makes the most sense for a general guide due to how difficult managing living armor properly globally can be.
EDIT: sorry for the trouble xD i was just trying to be as accurate as possible. Treant is i character i happen to know a lot about.
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Tinker published.
Windrunner published.
Witchdoctor published.
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United States47024 Posts
It's not all that uncommon to take a second rank of Windrun at 4 or 6 if you're off-lane for the added survivability.
It's also pretty normal to max all 3 regular skills before taking Focus Fire at all. Getting Focus Fire is generally something you do because the game demands it, not something you do at a set time.
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I set it at 10-11 because any further and it might feel alienating, I'll set that as a note however.
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Lalalaland34502 Posts
Screw alienating. Do what's right. Cookie cutter is putting a your first point into focus fire at lvl 13.
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On February 24 2013 09:07 Cragus wrote:
In the Visage guide, I don't think you should say that Aghanims is purely for the stun. I'd agree with not suggesting it for people that are having trouble with familiar micro, but it also gives you an absolutely absurd amount of burst damage, especially if you are solo mid and can get it relatively early.
Why would you get an Aghanim's for the burst damage? If you are going for burst damage you would probably be going for a dagon or medallion.
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On February 24 2013 10:26 LazyFailKid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 09:07 Cragus wrote:
In the Visage guide, I don't think you should say that Aghanims is purely for the stun. I'd agree with not suggesting it for people that are having trouble with familiar micro, but it also gives you an absolutely absurd amount of burst damage, especially if you are solo mid and can get it relatively early.
Why would you get an Aghanim's for the burst damage? If you are going for burst damage you would probably be going for a dagon or medallion.
Oddly, on visage mek also helps with burst damage, since the heal gives you more hp to work with for soul charges.
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On February 24 2013 10:53 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 10:26 LazyFailKid wrote:On February 24 2013 09:07 Cragus wrote:
In the Visage guide, I don't think you should say that Aghanims is purely for the stun. I'd agree with not suggesting it for people that are having trouble with familiar micro, but it also gives you an absolutely absurd amount of burst damage, especially if you are solo mid and can get it relatively early.
Why would you get an Aghanim's for the burst damage? If you are going for burst damage you would probably be going for a dagon or medallion. Oddly, on visage mek also helps with burst damage, since the heal gives you more hp to work with for soul charges.
True, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Mekansm shouldn't be visage's first item 
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On February 24 2013 11:01 LazyFailKid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 10:53 PrinceXizor wrote:On February 24 2013 10:26 LazyFailKid wrote:On February 24 2013 09:07 Cragus wrote:
In the Visage guide, I don't think you should say that Aghanims is purely for the stun. I'd agree with not suggesting it for people that are having trouble with familiar micro, but it also gives you an absolutely absurd amount of burst damage, especially if you are solo mid and can get it relatively early.
Why would you get an Aghanim's for the burst damage? If you are going for burst damage you would probably be going for a dagon or medallion. Oddly, on visage mek also helps with burst damage, since the heal gives you more hp to work with for soul charges. True, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Mekansm shouldn't be visage's first item
I'd get medallion first in tri vs solo. but otherwise yeah. xD
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I'm gonna finish the intelligence heroes tonight then do Agility tomorrow.
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Witch Doctor published.
Necrolyte published.
Queen of Pain published.
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Necrolyte is a supportive hero but he's not "support" he is a farming support, so he plays 1 or 2 position usually. getting the farm over others.
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You should mention something about how Death Pulse is a great farming tool, it's one of the most important points of the skill.
Plus getting creep kills is kinda the point of Sadist, he is made to farm. As such Midas deserves a mention, just add a note that it's good to buy before 10 minutes and use it on big creep in big camps in jungle. The level gain is very strong on Necrolyte and he can quickly kill jungle camps anyway. It's very common to see two points of Sadist early on Necro nowadays although it's a point of contention whether to delay a level of Death Pulse or Heartstopper.
Mek is pretty much core on Necrolyte nowadays, you just farm it up in lane as your first item (or right after Midas) and then go for some big items. What you go for is kinda dependent on the pace of the game and what you are trying to do but Shiva's, Rod of Atos, Drums and Sheep are all pretty common on him. Pipe deserves a mention in situational if the team needs it. He has a lot of choice on big items because of his farming potential.
BoT is really common late game too as his Death Pulse allows him some pushing ability and he will have buyback gold to tp back into fights, two full lives of Necrolyte is VERY powerful with heartstopper aura. Definitely deserves a mention for the same reasons that it is so strong on Leshrac (buyback tping in with your ult and full mana pool is very strong in the late-game)
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Queen of Pain really, really needs nulls in her core. 2 nulls and treads into Linkens/Sheep/Orchid is standard build on her and then Aghanim's. Then you decide between Veil, Sheep if you didn't get it earlier, or something like Shiva's.
The most general cookie cutter QoP would probably be something like
Tango 3x branch -> Bottle -> Boots of speed -> nulls+treads -> Linkens -> Aghanim's -> Sheep or Orchid
with Shiva's, Veil, and Ghost Scepter in situational.
edit: Yes some pros dont build nulls but this guide is not intended for pros, nulls gives her a LOT of right click damage and are easy to build up. Pubs are not NEARLY as mana efficient as pros due to the nature of professional play (focus on highly coordinated ganking and bursting down).
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Your omni guide is pretty much perfect, well done. Only things I would add is maybe scrap wand for Ring of Basilus in early game items, it's pretty much core on him due to his low int and you have enough burst heal/mana from soulring+boots+mek+purification. Medallion is also situational on him, it's very strong during ganks and during Guardian Angel since you have phys immunity anyway it's a completely free -6 armor on enemy hero. Vlad's is situational, maybe add an item note about how it should be picked up to supplement your physical carry not to make you a auto-attacker.
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I would say drums is situational on earthshaker but it's a small point. You shouldn't level aftershock over enchant totem, enchant is one of the MOST important parts of earthshaker's mid-game damage. It's a spammable massive "nuke" hit for very cheap mana (a fun build on him is Enchant Totem -> Shadowblade walk -> hit -> fissure -> hit -> enchant totem-> hit) and aftershock just doesn't compare at all damage-wise.
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Soul Ring is core on Tinker.
Ring of Aquila (you even recommend the Ring of Protect as starting item...) and Quelling Blade are core on Phantom Lancer.
Get Focus Fire at 14/15/16 and just make a note in skill explanation to get it at 10/11 if you are planning on taking an early Rosh or are heavily pushing towers.
Shadowblade is situational on Witch Doctor (item note to use it AFTER you start channeling your ult)
You have no starting items on windrunner? Maybe it's glitching for me. Usually tango salve 2x clarity 2xbranches
Ring of Aquila is core on Mirana, Viper, Weaver, Gyro and Medusa when you do those heroes.
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In the storm spirit guide, I'd probably make orchid his core instead of bloodstone. Bloodstone is decent on storm, but only really core if you have a very good early game while orchid will always be a useful pickup.
For silencer, orchid should probably be added as a situational pickup. It may seem a bit redundant, but the extra attack speed, intelligence, and mana regen helps his damage output pretty significantly.
On February 24 2013 10:26 LazyFailKid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 09:07 Cragus wrote:
In the Visage guide, I don't think you should say that Aghanims is purely for the stun. I'd agree with not suggesting it for people that are having trouble with familiar micro, but it also gives you an absolutely absurd amount of burst damage, especially if you are solo mid and can get it relatively early.
Why would you get an Aghanim's for the burst damage? If you are going for burst damage you would probably be going for a dagon or medallion.
Mostly for towers, 3x familiars can bang down a tower pretty fast. I don't think it's actually a strong item choice (unless one is farming visage and wants to mess around in which case its lololo), but if you're going aghanims for an extra 1.5s (or 3s with resummon) stun, that's less logical than doing it for damage. You'd do better putting the 4200 toward a sheep, orchid, or atos if you need further teamfight/gank control.
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On February 24 2013 17:53 Cragus wrote:In the storm spirit guide, I'd probably make orchid his core instead of bloodstone. Bloodstone is decent on storm, but only really core if you have a very good early game while orchid will always be a useful pickup. For silencer, orchid should probably be added as a situational pickup. It may seem a bit redundant, but the extra attack speed, intelligence, and mana regen helps his damage output pretty significantly. Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 10:26 LazyFailKid wrote:On February 24 2013 09:07 Cragus wrote:
In the Visage guide, I don't think you should say that Aghanims is purely for the stun. I'd agree with not suggesting it for people that are having trouble with familiar micro, but it also gives you an absolutely absurd amount of burst damage, especially if you are solo mid and can get it relatively early.
Why would you get an Aghanim's for the burst damage? If you are going for burst damage you would probably be going for a dagon or medallion. Mostly for towers, 3x familiars can bang down a tower pretty fast. I don't think it's actually a strong item choice (unless one is farming visage and wants to mess around in which case its lololo), but if you're going aghanims for an extra 1.5s (or 3s with resummon) stun, that's less logical than doing it for damage. You'd do better putting the 4200 toward a sheep, orchid, or atos if you need further teamfight/gank control.
i cringe everytime i see an allies storm go for orchid over bloodstone. i know they are going to feed. T_T. you have to be way better at the game to make orchid storm work, and when you get amazing at storm, blood stone is more useful most of the time anyway.
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EPT
