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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 330

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Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-24 22:02:15
August 24 2016 19:37 GMT
#6581
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 24 2016 19:37 GMT
#6582
Gonna finalized Underlord, then do stats for today.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-24 19:59:55
August 24 2016 19:59 GMT
#6583
Why does jungle underlord start with his worst jungling ability that makes no sense at all
or should i say why is underlord "support" guide sub titled jungle. Jungle is the subtitle to an offlane build imo.

I also think Underlord's primary lane should be mid as he literally cannot lose that lane with level 1 E.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-24 20:44:37
August 24 2016 20:43 GMT
#6584
On August 25 2016 04:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
Why does jungle underlord start with his worst jungling ability that makes no sense at all
or should i say why is underlord "support" guide sub titled jungle. Jungle is the subtitle to an offlane build imo.

I also think Underlord's primary lane should be mid as he literally cannot lose that lane with level 1 E.


I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered.

His biggest issue mid is that he has no escape. The upside is that he can use the adjoining jungle camps to farm. If W also pierces BKB, then he can also potentially stack ancients as well.

First ability for support is for 0:00 rune or tri-lane purposes. He gets level 2 relatively quickly regardless when stacking/pulling, the early W allows for any early ganks or 2:00 rune gank also. It's not awful.

Offlane is sub-titled as Offlane. There is no need for a sub-title for Offlane, but for consistency, we just transfer over the main title.

His real primary lane is Offlane however.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
August 24 2016 20:51 GMT
#6585
On August 25 2016 05:43 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2016 04:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
Why does jungle underlord start with his worst jungling ability that makes no sense at all
or should i say why is underlord "support" guide sub titled jungle. Jungle is the subtitle to an offlane build imo.

I also think Underlord's primary lane should be mid as he literally cannot lose that lane with level 1 E.


I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered.

His biggest issue mid is that he has no escape. The upside is that he can use the adjoining jungle camps to farm. If W also pierces BKB, then he can also potentially stack ancients as well.

First ability for support is for 0:00 rune or tri-lane purposes. He gets level 2 relatively quickly regardless when stacking/pulling, the early W allows for any early ganks or 2:00 rune gank also. It's not awful.

Offlane is sub-titled as Offlane. There is no need for a sub-title for Offlane, but for consistency, we just transfer over the main title.

His real primary lane is Offlane however.

"his biggest issue mid is that he has no escape" no thats his biggest issue offlane lolz mid its irrelevant

w pierces bkb (not the damage to my knowledge) but regardless it does 100 flat damage at all levels hows that help do ancients lmao

as support of course you get w then q then w then q never get aura and never jungle thats the point. The role that goes to the jungle is the offlane
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-24 22:01:54
August 24 2016 21:07 GMT
#6586
On August 25 2016 05:51 Sn0_Man wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2016 05:43 Torte de Lini wrote:
On August 25 2016 04:59 Sn0_Man wrote:
Why does jungle underlord start with his worst jungling ability that makes no sense at all
or should i say why is underlord "support" guide sub titled jungle. Jungle is the subtitle to an offlane build imo.

I also think Underlord's primary lane should be mid as he literally cannot lose that lane with level 1 E.


I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered.

His biggest issue mid is that he has no escape. The upside is that he can use the adjoining jungle camps to farm. If W also pierces BKB, then he can also potentially stack ancients as well.

First ability for support is for 0:00 rune or tri-lane purposes. He gets level 2 relatively quickly regardless when stacking/pulling, the early W allows for any early ganks or 2:00 rune gank also. It's not awful.

Offlane is sub-titled as Offlane. There is no need for a sub-title for Offlane, but for consistency, we just transfer over the main title.

His real primary lane is Offlane however.

"his biggest issue mid is that he has no escape" no thats his biggest issue offlane lolz mid its irrelevant

w pierces bkb (not the damage to my knowledge) but regardless it does 100 flat damage at all levels hows that help do ancients lmao

as support of course you get w then q then w then q never get aura and never jungle thats the point. The role that goes to the jungle is the offlane


Having no escape offlane as opposed to middle are vastly different in terms of severity of an issue.
If I can't get close to exp. range in the offlane, I have the adjoining jungle camps to take advantage of.

I would say if you can't safely take the middle lane and are getting ganked, it has a much higher consequence of events as opposed to the Offlane. On top of that, you are most susceptible to ganks from both sides as opposed to Offlane which you can sometimes see coming (depending if they deward you or not).

Stacking Ancients:
  • W doesn't do damage to the main ancient creep, but works on his minions, causing them to stack.
  • Max Atrophy Aura reduces the damage taken from camps heavily. With Vanguard, you can take entire stacks of the camp without taking any real damage
  • You can take the camps with the stacked damage from the lane and do Ancients at a decent pace (with Firestorm killing the smaller units


To add, saying Atrophy Aura makes you unkillable is pretty inaccurate vs. the usual mid-laners that can nuke you down.

A single point in Aura is no different than Crystal Maiden utilizing her single point in Frostbite, which she does at Level 1. To not use an early point in Atrophy Aura to take out camps meanwhile your carry lanes (and you can gank with W whenever necessary with extra damage) seems silly to me.

What's with the shitty 'lmao/lolz' tone? I am not receptive to feedback if it comes with this sort of snark.




As I said before: "I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered."
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-24 21:52:51
August 24 2016 21:52 GMT
#6587
nvm.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 24 2016 22:02 GMT
#6588
New Guide
Underlord (Support) - Sub-Title: Jungle

Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Firestorm 2. Pit of Malice 3. Atrophy Aura)
Starting Items: Stout Shield, Tangos, Iron Branch x2, Clarity
Core Items: Arcane Boots, Magic Wand, Durm of Endurance, Guardian Greaves
Situational Items: Blade Mail, Force Staff, Vladmir's Offering, Pipe of Insight, Lotus Orb
Extension Items: Boots of Travel, Blink Dagger, Crimson Guard, Shiva's Guard, Assault Cuirass, Octarine Core

New Guide
Underlord (Offlane) - Sub-title: Offlane

Skill Build: E Q Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Firestorm 2. Pit of Malice 3. Atrophy Aura)
Starting Items: Tango, Healing Salve, Enchanted Mango, Observer Ward, Stout Shield
Early Game: Boots of Speed, Iron Talon
Core Items: Arcane Boots, Magic Wand, Crimson Guard, Vladmir's Offering
Situational Items: Blade Mail, Drum of Endurance, Force Staff, Veil of Discord, Pipe of Insight, Lotus Orb
Extension Items: Boots of Travel, Guardian Greaves, Blink Dagger, Shiva's Guard, Assault Cuirass, Octarine Core

Undying
New Skill Build: Q E W E E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Tombstone 2. Soul Rip 3. Soul Decay)
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Veil of Discord to Core Items
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items
Added Lotus Orb to Extension Items
Moved Blade Mail to Situational Items
Removed Arcane Boots
Removed Guardian Greaves

Nyx Assassin (Support)
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Impale 2. Spiked Carapace 3. Mana Burn)

Night Stalker
Q E Q W Q R E Q E E R W W W R (1. Void 2. Hunter in the Night 3. Crippling Fear)
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Added Silver Edge to Situational Items
Added Lotus Orb to Situational Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Removed Power Treads
Removed Armlet of Mordiggian
Removed Solar Crest
Removed Heaven's Halberd

Necrophos
Moved Veil of Discord to Core - Aggressive
Moved Blink Dagger to Core - Aggressive
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items

Anti-Mage
Created New Tab: "Situational Items"
Added Vladmir's Offering to "Situational Items"

Templar Assassin
Added Wraith Band to Starting Items
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Faerie Fire

Timbersaw
Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
Added Lotus Orb to Situational Items
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Removed Heaven's Halberd

Medusa
Added Yasha to Core Items
Added Dragon Lance to Core Items
Added Bottle to Situational Items
Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Eye of Skadi to Core Items
Moved Manta Style to Extension Items
Moved Linken's Sphere to Extension Items
Removed Daedalus

Drow Ranger
Created New Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Added Aghanim's Scepter to "Luxury Items"
Added Mjollnir to "Luxury Items"
Moved Hurricane Pike to Core Items
Moved Satanic to "Luxury Items"
Removed Monkey King Bar

Venomancer
Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items

Arc Warden (Core/Safe)
Added Dragon Lance to Core Items
Added Silver Edge to Situational Items
Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items
Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Moved Mjollnir to Core Items
Moved Manta Style to Extension Items
Removed Bottle
Removed Diffusal Blade
Removed Daedalus
Removed Satanic

Renamed Core
Arc Warden (Core/Mid)
New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q E E W R W W W (1. Flux 2. Spark Wraith 3. Magnetic Field)
Added Bottle to Core Items
Added Boots of Travel to Core Items
Added Dragon Lance to Core Items
Added Mjollnir to Core Items
Added Desolator to Situational Items
Added Silver Edge to Situational Items
Added Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Extension Items
Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items
Added Manta Style to Extension Items
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items
Removed Enchanted Mango
Removed Observer Ward x2
Removed Arcane Boots
Removed Urn of Shadows
Removed Aether Lens
Removed Sentry Ward
Removed Smoke of Deceit
Removed Dust of Appearance
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Drum of Endurance
Removed Rod of Atos
Removed Lotus Orb
Removed Force Staff
Removed Solar Crest
Removed Pipe of Insight
Removed Dagon - Level 5

Renamed Offlane
Sand King
Added Arcane Boots to Core Items
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Removed Tranquil Boots
Removed Soul Ring
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 24 2016 23:43 GMT
#6589
Publishing.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
August 25 2016 10:12 GMT
#6590
underlord doesnt need an escape to go mid lolz lmao
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-25 13:09:28
August 25 2016 12:42 GMT
#6591
Zeus, shadowfiend, storm and like a billion other iconic mids would like a word. An escape is not suddenly a requirement for the mid lane. It's just a disadvantage to be played around, the same as always.

That said, I don't think you should make a third guide for him, unless you solemnly swear to delete the one with lowest subscribers in 2 months time.

His mid and offlane both build quite similarly. If it were up to me I would rename offlane to core. The only real difference is bottle vs iron talon, and you could probably just stick bottle in situational and call it a day. Maybe starting items too but it's not like you lose the game if you start mango mid.

Either way I still don't think Vlads is core and he should probably have necro somewhere. I don't see much point in octarine. Also raindrops. Maybe consider delaying his ult to like 8 or 9 too.

The support guide needs your normal tab for wards/cour/gem etc. I'm not sold on that skill build, but his early points as a support seem pretty fluid so w/e. Probably depends whether he's afk stacking, duo roaming or sitting in lane making someone's lasthits a misery with atrophy. I'd prefer WQQWQ as default.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-25 14:18:32
August 25 2016 14:01 GMT
#6592
On August 25 2016 21:42 Belisarius wrote:
Zeus, shadowfiend, storm and like a billion other iconic mids would like a word. An escape is not suddenly a requirement for the mid lane. It's just a disadvantage to be played around, the same as always.

That said, I don't think you should make a third guide for him, unless you solemnly swear to delete the one with lowest subscribers in 2 months time.

His mid and offlane both build quite similarly. If it were up to me I would rename offlane to core. The only real difference is bottle vs iron talon, and you could probably just stick bottle in situational and call it a day. Maybe starting items too but it's not like you lose the game if you start mango mid.

Either way I still don't think Vlads is core and he should probably have necro somewhere. I don't see much point in octarine. Also raindrops. Maybe consider delaying his ult to like 8 or 9 too.

The support guide needs your normal tab for wards/cour/gem etc. I'm not sold on that skill build, but his early points as a support seem pretty fluid so w/e. Probably depends whether he's afk stacking, duo roaming or sitting in lane making someone's lasthits a misery with atrophy. I'd prefer WQQWQ as default.


Your comparisons are not even fair or equal.

Underlord is a melee hero with low armour and you use Zeus, Shadowfiend and Storm as comparisons who all have:

1. Guaranteed forms of getting last hits/wiping waves
2. Ranged forms of attacks to diminish risk of overreaching
3. Good use of the mid-lane

Underlord is like Magnus, minus the ability to charge backwards and a weaker damage-dealing AOE (and a great initiating ult). In addition, he doesn't take advantage of the early levels as well as any of those heroes. To top it off, he can jungle and be active with his W and Atrophy Aura damage.

Do you guys even remember the changes the build went before he was released? I made two guides: Mid and Offlane, I got complaints and snark that he:

Didn't need two guides.

Then it was suggested that he needs two guides

Then it was suggested to make a Support + Mid

Now it is suggested to make Offlane + Mid.

And I say it every time. We can always change it later, let's wait and see rather than needlessly adjusting it to how you feel about the build instead of going through the proper data/observable funnels of information to make a proper decision.

So I'm going to re-iterate:

As I said before: "I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered."


Lastly, stop taking singular points of my arguments to disagree or disapprove. It's not fair and feels like my efforts are going unnoticed to give concurrent viewpoints.




I'm not opposed to changing support to mid or something else, I'm just not quick to immediately change a guide without the proper information to see why. From all games I have spectated, played and reviewed - it didn't look like Mid was good at all.

The hero is released now, you can try it and tell me how it went for you - pros/cons instead of just disagreeing with my assessments and providing little to persuade me.

Look at the information given to change it to mid. It has 0 foundation and relies on the idea that he should be mid because those who have similar faults as him (e.g. "no escape") do fine. It's all based on a thought rather than highlighting the value of him mid.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
August 25 2016 14:21 GMT
#6593
no its because atrophy aura gets him every cs in lane for the first 10 minutes
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-25 15:00:53
August 25 2016 14:52 GMT
#6594
After ~15 days (August 9 to August 24), we have risen from 158,147,028 to 161,485,358 combined subscriptions

A difference of 3,338,330
Average Subscribers per Guide is 1,076,569.05
Growth Percentage is 2.11%


5 least popular guides (bottom being the least popular):
  1. Naga Siren (Support) (293,357)
  2. Brewmaster (Core) (291,145)
  3. Warlock (Core) (171,586)
  4. Shadow Shaman (Core) (130,489)
  5. Invoker (Quas/Wex) (97,628)


5 most popular guides (top being the most popular):
  1. Sven
  2. Lifestealer (Jungle)
  3. Juggernaut (previously rank 3)
  4. Phantom Lancer (previously rank 2)
  5. Bounty Hunter


Notable Growths in Subscriptions:
  • Sven (2,185,685 -> 2,236,596)
  • Drow Ranger (1,455,787 -> 1,508,142)
  • Windranger (Core/Mid) (990,781 -> 1,029,926)
  • Axe (Core) (994,557 -> 1,019,329)
  • Invoker (Quas/Wex) (97,628)


Newly Released Guides:
  • Underlord (Offlane)
  • Underlord (Support)




Patreon.com/Torte, this project continues to be made possible by the contributions of:

Alfred Vogl, Pearson Mewbourne, Leonardo Lambertini, Scott MacDonald, Sutas, Nicholas Chlumecky, Mikey Kaminski, Dice, Bartlomiej Jan Pasek, Ryan Goss, Startracker, Freeze ray, Nate Hubbard, The WLD Crew, Benjamin Miller, Kistaro Windrider, Elliot Cuite, Patrick Colton, Daniel Thackray, Jose Cacho, Max Kemeny, Matthew Nami, tale, Joel Absolom, Aaron Bell, Jason Davis, Dan Shaw, Cooper Johnson, Samuel Enocsson, JimmaDaRustla, Slashershot, Igor Dolgiy, Ramona Brown, Duncan, Alishams Hassam, Leon Traill, Josh Laseter, Genc Musliu, Joshua Rodman, Moe Foster, Alli Goss

Portions of their pledges will go to long-time community members, dedicated to providing feedback to keep this collection of hero builds accurate to current standards of play.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-25 14:59:39
August 25 2016 14:58 GMT
#6595
    This latest update and hero builds changes was made possible thanks to the feedback and knowledge of the following community members. Sincere thank you to: Berlisarius, Birdie, Thetwinmasters, Velzi, TheYango, TheGlitchMob, Buckyman, TheWanderingZebra

  • 17.00% of last month's unique players [13,156,314] are subscribed to the our highest subscribed guide: Sven Guide

  • Windranger (Core/Mid) (1,029,926)
  • Axe (Core) (1,019,329) recently hit the 1 million mark

  • Nine guides are currently swimming towards the 1 million mark: , , , , , , , ,
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-25 16:59:02
August 25 2016 16:03 GMT
#6596
Dark Seer
Added Lotus Orb to Situational Items

Ogre Magi
New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Ignite 2. Bloodlust 3. Fireblast)
Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items

Riki
New Skill Build: E Q W E E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Cloak and Dagger 2. Smoke Screen 3. Blink Strike)

Renamed Core
Underlord (Core)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 25 2016 16:07 GMT
#6597
Same build, just reclassified. Oracle has a similar itemization - but has a "support" version (which buys wards and gets smaller/cheaper items) and a core version (which shoots straight for Mekansm/no wards).
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland659 Posts
August 25 2016 16:51 GMT
#6598
Pit Lord, pretty sure you dont want to have Core and Jungle mentioned in the same guide, right now it states Core in the main title and in the item subtitle Core Item (Jungle), i would just stick on the Core everywhere and mention in the text you can follow this guide both offlane and mid.

To be clear, i think at this point its safest to have 2 guides, support and core, support meaning you are pos4, getting some farm for ur items (which should focus on having maximum impact in teamfights, with either teamfight items or single target buffs/utility) and core focusing on getting some farming items first then transition into teamfight monster (through spell damage, teamfight utility and disables, not through right click).

Support going Arcanes Wand Urn Drums Force Mek Pipe Solar kinda stuff
Core going Arcanes Wand SR Blink Veil Hex Shivas and so on.

Also level one Pit of Malice seems bad for core, i would rather start off with e if im mid, maybe w if im off.

Keep it simple until we get some more data going on and more people trying stuff.

Ogre, I do agree R>W>E>Q seems better in pro games right now, but i wouldnt count on it working in pubs.

And that whole "escape mechanism" is bullshit, u dont pick hero to mid because he has escape mechanism, rather other way around. U can definitely play hero mid without escape mechanism, u just have to be tiny bit more careful when enemy heroes are missing and lane if pushing, thats it.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-25 17:29:27
August 25 2016 17:09 GMT
#6599
On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote:
Pit Lord, pretty sure you dont want to have Core and Jungle mentioned in the same guide, right now it states Core in the main title and in the item subtitle Core Item (Jungle), i would just stick on the Core everywhere and mention in the text you can follow this guide both offlane and mid.

To be clear, i think at this point its safest to have 2 guides, support and core, support meaning you are pos4, getting some farm for ur items (which should focus on having maximum impact in teamfights, with either teamfight items or single target buffs/utility) and core focusing on getting some farming items first then transition into teamfight monster (through spell damage, teamfight utility and disables, not through right click).

Support going Arcanes Wand Urn Drums Force Mek Pipe Solar kinda stuff
Core going Arcanes Wand SR Blink Veil Hex Shivas and so on.

Also level one Pit of Malice seems bad for core, i would rather start off with e if im mid, maybe w if im off.

Keep it simple until we get some more data going on and more people trying stuff.

Ogre, I do agree R>W>E>Q seems better in pro games right now, but i wouldnt count on it working in pubs.

And that whole "escape mechanism" is bullshit, u dont pick hero to mid because he has escape mechanism, rather other way around. U can definitely play hero mid without escape mechanism, u just have to be tiny bit more careful when enemy heroes are missing and lane if pushing, thats it.


Did you read any of my arguments or are you just picking at one while completely disregarding everything I said on top of my conclusion?

So I'm going to re-iterate:

Show nested quote +
As I said before: "I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered."


Lastly, stop taking singular points of my arguments to disagree or disapprove. It's not fair and feels like my efforts are going unnoticed to give concurrent viewpoints.


Everything you're saying is coming from someone who skimmed the thread and didn't read back on the topic:

On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote:
Pit Lord, pretty sure you dont want to have Core and Jungle mentioned in the same guide, right now it states Core in the main title and in the item subtitle Core Item (Jungle), i would just stick on the Core everywhere and mention in the text you can follow this guide both offlane and mid.


I already have an offlane guide, why would I make that suggestion in another guide where it is not fitted to do so as aptly as the full Offlane guide?

On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote:

To be clear, i think at this point its safest to have 2 guides, support and core, support meaning you are pos4, getting some farm for ur items (which should focus on having maximum impact in teamfights, with either teamfight items or single target buffs/utility) and core focusing on getting some farming items first then transition into teamfight monster (through spell damage, teamfight utility and disables, not through right click)..


I'm not re-re-re-re-re-re-defining what "core" and "support" is after the debacle from last time. Your suggestion of "core" and "support" is so blurry on its differences, that there is no way it could be understood from a user. It's just a reverse order of priorities that doesn't translate in a guide.

If you want to see what a Core "Support" is, look at Oracle. Then look at the Support "Support" Oracle guide. That's what I am establishing and will be keeping.

On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote:
Support going Arcanes Wand Urn Drums Force Mek Pipe Solar kinda stuff
Core going Arcanes Wand SR Blink Veil Hex Shivas and so on.


That Core build is not very good. It's aggressive, so points to early fighting - but your definition dictates "focusing on getting farming items first". In addition, Arcane + Soul Ring is redundant.

On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote:
Also level one Pit of Malice seems bad for core, i would rather start off with e if im mid, maybe w if im off.


We already have an offlane build.
why does Pit of Malice level 1 seem bad? These sort of arguments are fucking terrible because they do not give an informed opinion. Just a "feeling" which is fucking useless unless I somehow feel the same way.

Which I don't.

Pit of Malice seems bad? It's a Level 1 - 1 second AOE stun with 100 damage. It's the same damage and stun duration as Vengeful Spirit.

It's great for 0:00 rune.
Good for any trilane
and is more guaranteed damage than Firestorm.

Firestorm level 1 is bad. Atrophy Aura pushes the lane. So if we make the Core "Safe Lane' then it will be mis-interpreted.

I agree "Core + Jungle" as a Title/Sub-Title combination is bad, I will have to revise it

On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote:
And that whole "escape mechanism" is bullshit, u dont pick hero to mid because he has escape mechanism, rather other way around. U can definitely play hero mid without escape mechanism, u just have to be tiny bit more careful when enemy heroes are missing and lane if pushing, thats it.


Read everything.


https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-25 17:50:32
August 25 2016 17:33 GMT
#6600
Dark Seer
Added Lotus Orb to Situational Items

Ogre Magi
New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Ignite 2. Bloodlust 3. Fireblast)
Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items

Riki
New Skill Build: E Q W E E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Cloak and Dagger 2. Smoke Screen 3. Blink Strike)

Oracle (Support)
Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items
Removed Guardian Greaves

Renamed Core
Underlord (Core)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
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