EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 330
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
or should i say why is underlord "support" guide sub titled jungle. Jungle is the subtitle to an offlane build imo. I also think Underlord's primary lane should be mid as he literally cannot lose that lane with level 1 E. | ||
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On August 25 2016 04:59 Sn0_Man wrote: Why does jungle underlord start with his worst jungling ability that makes no sense at all or should i say why is underlord "support" guide sub titled jungle. Jungle is the subtitle to an offlane build imo. I also think Underlord's primary lane should be mid as he literally cannot lose that lane with level 1 E. I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered. His biggest issue mid is that he has no escape. The upside is that he can use the adjoining jungle camps to farm. If W also pierces BKB, then he can also potentially stack ancients as well. First ability for support is for 0:00 rune or tri-lane purposes. He gets level 2 relatively quickly regardless when stacking/pulling, the early W allows for any early ganks or 2:00 rune gank also. It's not awful. Offlane is sub-titled as Offlane. There is no need for a sub-title for Offlane, but for consistency, we just transfer over the main title. His real primary lane is Offlane however. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On August 25 2016 05:43 Torte de Lini wrote: I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered. His biggest issue mid is that he has no escape. The upside is that he can use the adjoining jungle camps to farm. If W also pierces BKB, then he can also potentially stack ancients as well. First ability for support is for 0:00 rune or tri-lane purposes. He gets level 2 relatively quickly regardless when stacking/pulling, the early W allows for any early ganks or 2:00 rune gank also. It's not awful. Offlane is sub-titled as Offlane. There is no need for a sub-title for Offlane, but for consistency, we just transfer over the main title. His real primary lane is Offlane however. "his biggest issue mid is that he has no escape" no thats his biggest issue offlane lolz mid its irrelevant w pierces bkb (not the damage to my knowledge) but regardless it does 100 flat damage at all levels hows that help do ancients lmao as support of course you get w then q then w then q never get aura and never jungle thats the point. The role that goes to the jungle is the offlane | ||
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Germany38463 Posts
On August 25 2016 05:51 Sn0_Man wrote: "his biggest issue mid is that he has no escape" no thats his biggest issue offlane lolz mid its irrelevant w pierces bkb (not the damage to my knowledge) but regardless it does 100 flat damage at all levels hows that help do ancients lmao as support of course you get w then q then w then q never get aura and never jungle thats the point. The role that goes to the jungle is the offlane Having no escape offlane as opposed to middle are vastly different in terms of severity of an issue. If I can't get close to exp. range in the offlane, I have the adjoining jungle camps to take advantage of. I would say if you can't safely take the middle lane and are getting ganked, it has a much higher consequence of events as opposed to the Offlane. On top of that, you are most susceptible to ganks from both sides as opposed to Offlane which you can sometimes see coming (depending if they deward you or not). Stacking Ancients:
To add, saying Atrophy Aura makes you unkillable is pretty inaccurate vs. the usual mid-laners that can nuke you down. A single point in Aura is no different than Crystal Maiden utilizing her single point in Frostbite, which she does at Level 1. To not use an early point in Atrophy Aura to take out camps meanwhile your carry lanes (and you can gank with W whenever necessary with extra damage) seems silly to me. What's with the shitty 'lmao/lolz' tone? I am not receptive to feedback if it comes with this sort of snark. As I said before: "I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered." | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Underlord (Support) - Sub-Title: Jungle Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Firestorm 2. Pit of Malice 3. Atrophy Aura) Starting Items: Stout Shield, Tangos, Iron Branch x2, Clarity Core Items: Arcane Boots, Magic Wand, Durm of Endurance, Guardian Greaves Situational Items: Blade Mail, Force Staff, Vladmir's Offering, Pipe of Insight, Lotus Orb Extension Items: Boots of Travel, Blink Dagger, Crimson Guard, Shiva's Guard, Assault Cuirass, Octarine Core New Guide Underlord (Offlane) - Sub-title: Offlane Skill Build: E Q Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Firestorm 2. Pit of Malice 3. Atrophy Aura) Starting Items: Tango, Healing Salve, Enchanted Mango, Observer Ward, Stout Shield Early Game: Boots of Speed, Iron Talon Core Items: Arcane Boots, Magic Wand, Crimson Guard, Vladmir's Offering Situational Items: Blade Mail, Drum of Endurance, Force Staff, Veil of Discord, Pipe of Insight, Lotus Orb Extension Items: Boots of Travel, Guardian Greaves, Blink Dagger, Shiva's Guard, Assault Cuirass, Octarine Core  UndyingNew Skill Build: Q E W E E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Tombstone 2. Soul Rip 3. Soul Decay) Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items Added Veil of Discord to Core Items Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items Added Lotus Orb to Extension Items Moved Blade Mail to Situational Items Removed Arcane Boots Removed Guardian Greaves Nyx Assassin (Support) New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Impale 2. Spiked Carapace 3. Mana Burn) Night Stalker Q E Q W Q R E Q E E R W W W R (1. Void 2. Hunter in the Night 3. Crippling Fear) Added Phase Boots to Core Items Added Silver Edge to Situational Items Added Lotus Orb to Situational Items Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items Moved Force Staff to Situational Items Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items Removed Power Treads Removed Armlet of Mordiggian Removed Solar Crest Removed Heaven's Halberd Necrophos Moved Veil of Discord to Core - Aggressive Moved Blink Dagger to Core - Aggressive Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items  Anti-MageCreated New Tab: "Situational Items" Added Vladmir's Offering to "Situational Items" Templar Assassin Added Wraith Band to Starting Items Removed Iron Branch Removed Faerie Fire  TimbersawAdded Linken's Sphere to Situational Items Added Lotus Orb to Situational Items Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items Removed Heaven's Halberd  MedusaAdded Yasha to Core Items Added Dragon Lance to Core Items Added Bottle to Situational Items Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items Moved Eye of Skadi to Core Items Moved Manta Style to Extension Items Moved Linken's Sphere to Extension Items Removed Daedalus Drow Ranger Created New Tab: "Luxury Items" Added Daedalus to Extension Items Added Aghanim's Scepter to "Luxury Items" Added Mjollnir to "Luxury Items" Moved Hurricane Pike to Core Items Moved Satanic to "Luxury Items" Removed Monkey King Bar  VenomancerAdded Pipe of Insight to Situational Items Arc Warden (Core/Safe) Added Dragon Lance to Core Items Added Silver Edge to Situational Items Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items Moved Mjollnir to Core Items Moved Manta Style to Extension Items Removed Bottle Removed Diffusal Blade Removed Daedalus Removed Satanic Renamed Core Arc Warden (Core/Mid) New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q E E W R W W W (1. Flux 2. Spark Wraith 3. Magnetic Field) Added Bottle to Core Items Added Boots of Travel to Core Items Added Dragon Lance to Core Items Added Mjollnir to Core Items Added Desolator to Situational Items Added Silver Edge to Situational Items Added Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Extension Items Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items Added Manta Style to Extension Items Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items Removed Enchanted Mango Removed Observer Ward x2 Removed Arcane Boots Removed Urn of Shadows Removed Aether Lens Removed Sentry Ward Removed Smoke of Deceit Removed Dust of Appearance Removed Healing Salve Removed Drum of Endurance Removed Rod of Atos Removed Lotus Orb Removed Force Staff Removed Solar Crest Removed Pipe of Insight Removed Dagon - Level 5 Renamed Offlane Sand King Added Arcane Boots to Core Items Added Magic Wand to Core Items Removed Tranquil Boots Removed Soul Ring | ||
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Germany38463 Posts
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
That said, I don't think you should make a third guide for him, unless you solemnly swear to delete the one with lowest subscribers in 2 months time. His mid and offlane both build quite similarly. If it were up to me I would rename offlane to core. The only real difference is bottle vs iron talon, and you could probably just stick bottle in situational and call it a day. Maybe starting items too but it's not like you lose the game if you start mango mid. Either way I still don't think Vlads is core and he should probably have necro somewhere. I don't see much point in octarine. Also raindrops. Maybe consider delaying his ult to like 8 or 9 too. The support guide needs your normal tab for wards/cour/gem etc. I'm not sold on that skill build, but his early points as a support seem pretty fluid so w/e. Probably depends whether he's afk stacking, duo roaming or sitting in lane making someone's lasthits a misery with atrophy. I'd prefer WQQWQ as default. | ||
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Germany38463 Posts
On August 25 2016 21:42 Belisarius wrote: Zeus, shadowfiend, storm and like a billion other iconic mids would like a word. An escape is not suddenly a requirement for the mid lane. It's just a disadvantage to be played around, the same as always. That said, I don't think you should make a third guide for him, unless you solemnly swear to delete the one with lowest subscribers in 2 months time. His mid and offlane both build quite similarly. If it were up to me I would rename offlane to core. The only real difference is bottle vs iron talon, and you could probably just stick bottle in situational and call it a day. Maybe starting items too but it's not like you lose the game if you start mango mid. Either way I still don't think Vlads is core and he should probably have necro somewhere. I don't see much point in octarine. Also raindrops. Maybe consider delaying his ult to like 8 or 9 too. The support guide needs your normal tab for wards/cour/gem etc. I'm not sold on that skill build, but his early points as a support seem pretty fluid so w/e. Probably depends whether he's afk stacking, duo roaming or sitting in lane making someone's lasthits a misery with atrophy. I'd prefer WQQWQ as default. Your comparisons are not even fair or equal. Underlord is a melee hero with low armour and you use Zeus, Shadowfiend and Storm as comparisons who all have: 1. Guaranteed forms of getting last hits/wiping waves 2. Ranged forms of attacks to diminish risk of overreaching 3. Good use of the mid-lane Underlord is like Magnus, minus the ability to charge backwards and a weaker damage-dealing AOE (and a great initiating ult). In addition, he doesn't take advantage of the early levels as well as any of those heroes. To top it off, he can jungle and be active with his W and Atrophy Aura damage. Do you guys even remember the changes the build went before he was released? I made two guides: Mid and Offlane, I got complaints and snark that he: Didn't need two guides. Then it was suggested that he needs two guides Then it was suggested to make a Support + Mid Now it is suggested to make Offlane + Mid. And I say it every time. We can always change it later, let's wait and see rather than needlessly adjusting it to how you feel about the build instead of going through the proper data/observable funnels of information to make a proper decision. So I'm going to re-iterate: As I said before: "I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered." Lastly, stop taking singular points of my arguments to disagree or disapprove. It's not fair and feels like my efforts are going unnoticed to give concurrent viewpoints. I'm not opposed to changing support to mid or something else, I'm just not quick to immediately change a guide without the proper information to see why. From all games I have spectated, played and reviewed - it didn't look like Mid was good at all. The hero is released now, you can try it and tell me how it went for you - pros/cons instead of just disagreeing with my assessments and providing little to persuade me. Look at the information given to change it to mid. It has 0 foundation and relies on the idea that he should be mid because those who have similar faults as him (e.g. "no escape") do fine. It's all based on a thought rather than highlighting the value of him mid. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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 Dark SeerAdded Lotus Orb to Situational Items Ogre Magi New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Ignite 2. Bloodlust 3. Fireblast) Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items  RikiNew Skill Build: E Q W E E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Cloak and Dagger 2. Smoke Screen 3. Blink Strike) Renamed Core Underlord (Core) | ||
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Germany38463 Posts
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
To be clear, i think at this point its safest to have 2 guides, support and core, support meaning you are pos4, getting some farm for ur items (which should focus on having maximum impact in teamfights, with either teamfight items or single target buffs/utility) and core focusing on getting some farming items first then transition into teamfight monster (through spell damage, teamfight utility and disables, not through right click). Support going Arcanes Wand Urn Drums Force Mek Pipe Solar kinda stuff Core going Arcanes Wand SR Blink Veil Hex Shivas and so on. Also level one Pit of Malice seems bad for core, i would rather start off with e if im mid, maybe w if im off. Keep it simple until we get some more data going on and more people trying stuff. Ogre, I do agree R>W>E>Q seems better in pro games right now, but i wouldnt count on it working in pubs. And that whole "escape mechanism" is bullshit, u dont pick hero to mid because he has escape mechanism, rather other way around. U can definitely play hero mid without escape mechanism, u just have to be tiny bit more careful when enemy heroes are missing and lane if pushing, thats it. | ||
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Germany38463 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote: Pit Lord, pretty sure you dont want to have Core and Jungle mentioned in the same guide, right now it states Core in the main title and in the item subtitle Core Item (Jungle), i would just stick on the Core everywhere and mention in the text you can follow this guide both offlane and mid. To be clear, i think at this point its safest to have 2 guides, support and core, support meaning you are pos4, getting some farm for ur items (which should focus on having maximum impact in teamfights, with either teamfight items or single target buffs/utility) and core focusing on getting some farming items first then transition into teamfight monster (through spell damage, teamfight utility and disables, not through right click). Support going Arcanes Wand Urn Drums Force Mek Pipe Solar kinda stuff Core going Arcanes Wand SR Blink Veil Hex Shivas and so on. Also level one Pit of Malice seems bad for core, i would rather start off with e if im mid, maybe w if im off. Keep it simple until we get some more data going on and more people trying stuff. Ogre, I do agree R>W>E>Q seems better in pro games right now, but i wouldnt count on it working in pubs. And that whole "escape mechanism" is bullshit, u dont pick hero to mid because he has escape mechanism, rather other way around. U can definitely play hero mid without escape mechanism, u just have to be tiny bit more careful when enemy heroes are missing and lane if pushing, thats it. Did you read any of my arguments or are you just picking at one while completely disregarding everything I said on top of my conclusion? So I'm going to re-iterate: Lastly, stop taking singular points of my arguments to disagree or disapprove. It's not fair and feels like my efforts are going unnoticed to give concurrent viewpoints. Everything you're saying is coming from someone who skimmed the thread and didn't read back on the topic: On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote: Pit Lord, pretty sure you dont want to have Core and Jungle mentioned in the same guide, right now it states Core in the main title and in the item subtitle Core Item (Jungle), i would just stick on the Core everywhere and mention in the text you can follow this guide both offlane and mid. I already have an offlane guide, why would I make that suggestion in another guide where it is not fitted to do so as aptly as the full Offlane guide? On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote: To be clear, i think at this point its safest to have 2 guides, support and core, support meaning you are pos4, getting some farm for ur items (which should focus on having maximum impact in teamfights, with either teamfight items or single target buffs/utility) and core focusing on getting some farming items first then transition into teamfight monster (through spell damage, teamfight utility and disables, not through right click).. I'm not re-re-re-re-re-re-defining what "core" and "support" is after the debacle from last time. Your suggestion of "core" and "support" is so blurry on its differences, that there is no way it could be understood from a user. It's just a reverse order of priorities that doesn't translate in a guide. If you want to see what a Core "Support" is, look at Oracle. Then look at the Support "Support" Oracle guide. That's what I am establishing and will be keeping. On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote: Support going Arcanes Wand Urn Drums Force Mek Pipe Solar kinda stuff Core going Arcanes Wand SR Blink Veil Hex Shivas and so on. That Core build is not very good. It's aggressive, so points to early fighting - but your definition dictates "focusing on getting farming items first". In addition, Arcane + Soul Ring is redundant. On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote: Also level one Pit of Malice seems bad for core, i would rather start off with e if im mid, maybe w if im off. We already have an offlane build. why does Pit of Malice level 1 seem bad? These sort of arguments are fucking terrible because they do not give an informed opinion. Just a "feeling" which is fucking useless unless I somehow feel the same way. Which I don't. Pit of Malice seems bad? It's a Level 1 - 1 second AOE stun with 100 damage. It's the same damage and stun duration as Vengeful Spirit. It's great for 0:00 rune. Good for any trilane and is more guaranteed damage than Firestorm. Firestorm level 1 is bad. Atrophy Aura pushes the lane. So if we make the Core "Safe Lane' then it will be mis-interpreted. I agree "Core + Jungle" as a Title/Sub-Title combination is bad, I will have to revise it On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote: And that whole "escape mechanism" is bullshit, u dont pick hero to mid because he has escape mechanism, rather other way around. U can definitely play hero mid without escape mechanism, u just have to be tiny bit more careful when enemy heroes are missing and lane if pushing, thats it. Read everything. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Dark SeerAdded Lotus Orb to Situational Items Ogre Magi New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Ignite 2. Bloodlust 3. Fireblast) Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items RikiNew Skill Build: E Q W E E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Cloak and Dagger 2. Smoke Screen 3. Blink Strike) Oracle (Support) Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items Removed Guardian Greaves Renamed Core Underlord (Core) | ||
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