EPTRight now, it's just your suggestions and if I don't agree with or if my arguments don't meet your standards, you blow me off or criticize the argument rather than its intention.
I don't think that's fair.
In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 331
| Forum Index > The Tavern |
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Right now, it's just your suggestions and if I don't agree with or if my arguments don't meet your standards, you blow me off or criticize the argument rather than its intention. I don't think that's fair. | ||
|
Velzi
Finland659 Posts
Underlord in page one has Support and Offlane guides and then when u click them they are Core and Offlane (which are pretty much the same with one or two exceptions so one is pretty irrelevant). Where as if u had Support and Core build u would actually have 2 DIFFERENT guides for different purposes, not 2 same builds with 2 different guides. | ||
|
Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On August 26 2016 02:38 Torte de Lini wrote: I am not being met with the same courtesy I am giving. When I read your suggestions and opinions, I double-check with my findings, give my perspective on it and hope to either be corrected or agreed with. Right now, it's just your suggestions and if I don't agree with or if my arguments don't meet your standards, you blow me off or criticize the argument rather than its intention. I don't think that's fair. That's just not true. You are playing the victim card when people disagree with you. It's unbecoming and it makes people less likely to have a real discussion with you. Instead we present our opinions and knowledge and leave it at that, because further discussion leads to "b-b-b-but you don't respect me" etc. When you feel like others are "posting with a shitty lolz/lmao vibe" it's because we no longer feel like a real discussion is possible so that changes the manner in which we present our opinions. I'm sorry that you feel persecuted by this. You used to be interested in what others had to say about heroes, now you just put up whatever you assume is correct (with surface level logic at best see: vlads pitlord) and then complain when people disagree. And of course they are your guides, do what you want. But don't complain about the quality of the feedback when what's happened is you've decided that you know best on all sorts of awful builds and consistently dispute suggestions from people more knowledgeable than yourself. If you have specific questions about specific heroes i'm happy to talk to you about them, but you can't come in with a preconceived build, make a few points to justify it, then rage out when people discount your points. On August 26 2016 02:45 Velzi wrote: i have no fucking clue what that oracle Core is suppose to do for instance. Main Title says CORE and then starting items have Courier. Underlord in page one has Support and Offlane guides and then when u click them they are Core and Offlane (which are pretty much the same with one or two exceptions so one is pretty irrelevant). Where as if u had Support and Core build u would actually have 2 DIFFERENT guides for different purposes, not 2 same builds with 2 different guides. It's another symptom of putting up a bunch of guides on heroes that nobody understands, hoping to grab the early subscribers. Then once we actually understand where a hero belongs, the no-longer-relevant guides are hard to get rid of because there are a bunch of subscribers to it already. | ||
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 26 2016 02:47 Sn0_Man wrote: That's just not true. You are playing the victim card when people disagree with you. It's unbecoming and it makes people less likely to have a real discussion with you. Instead we present our opinions and knowledge and leave it at that, because further discussion leads to "b-b-b-but you don't respect me" etc. When you feel like others are "posting with a shitty lolz/lmao vibe" it's because we no longer feel like a real discussion is possible so that changes the manner in which we present our opinions. I'm sorry that you feel persecuted by this. You used to be interested in what others had to say about heroes, now you just put up whatever you assume is correct (with surface level logic at best see: vlads pitlord) and then complain when people disagree. And of course they are your guides, do what you want. But don't complain about the quality of the feedback when what's happened is you've decided that you know best on all sorts of awful builds and consistently dispute suggestions from people more knowledgeable than yourself. If you have specific questions about specific heroes i'm happy to talk to you about them, but you can't come in with a preconceived build, make a few points to justify it, then rage out when people discount your points. It's another symptom of putting up a bunch of guides on heroes that nobody understands, hoping to grab the early subscribers. Then once we actually understand where a hero belongs, the no-longer-relevant guides are hard to get rid of because there are a bunch of subscribers to it already. What victim card? Time and time again, I will put up my reasoning and ask for clarifications both on how my arguments could be wrong (which they can) and what makes yours the correct perspective. Bounty Hunter Riki Underlord These are some examples where I put endless hours making and showing my view of the build. I list data, the matches in a competitive and public environment, my own experience, Dotabuff data and sometimes I get an equal effort (Bounty Hunter) and sometimes I just get: "oh he's just being stubborn". No, I'm being thorough and I don't make changes unless I understand them or have experienced them myself. Is that unreasonable? You have not discounted my points at all. The escape mechanism is an example in 5 full arguments. On August 25 2016 06:07 Torte de Lini wrote: Having no escape offlane as opposed to middle are vastly different in terms of severity of an issue. If I can't get close to exp. range in the offlane, I have the adjoining jungle camps to take advantage of. I would say if you can't safely take the middle lane and are getting ganked, it has a much higher consequence of events as opposed to the Offlane. On top of that, you are most susceptible to ganks from both sides as opposed to Offlane which you can sometimes see coming (depending if they deward you or not). Stacking Ancients:
To add, saying Atrophy Aura makes you unkillable is pretty inaccurate vs. the usual mid-laners that can nuke you down. A single point in Aura is no different than Crystal Maiden utilizing her single point in Frostbite, which she does at Level 1. To not use an early point in Atrophy Aura to take out camps meanwhile your carry lanes (and you can gank with W whenever necessary with extra damage) seems silly to me. What's with the shitty 'lmao/lolz' tone? I am not receptive to feedback if it comes with this sort of snark. As I said before: "I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered." Unrefuted, just ignored On August 25 2016 23:01 Torte de Lini wrote: Your comparisons are not even fair or equal. Underlord is a melee hero with low armour and you use Zeus, Shadowfiend and Storm as comparisons who all have: 1. Guaranteed forms of getting last hits/wiping waves 2. Ranged forms of attacks to diminish risk of overreaching 3. Good use of the mid-lane Underlord is like Magnus, minus the ability to charge backwards and a weaker damage-dealing AOE (and a great initiating ult). In addition, he doesn't take advantage of the early levels as well as any of those heroes. To top it off, he can jungle and be active with his W and Atrophy Aura damage. Do you guys even remember the changes the build went before he was released? I made two guides: Mid and Offlane, I got complaints and snark that he: Didn't need two guides. Then it was suggested that he needs two guides Then it was suggested to make a Support + Mid Now it is suggested to make Offlane + Mid. And I say it every time. We can always change it later, let's wait and see rather than needlessly adjusting it to how you feel about the build instead of going through the proper data/observable funnels of information to make a proper decision. So I'm going to re-iterate: Lastly, stop taking singular points of my arguments to disagree or disapprove. It's not fair and feels like my efforts are going unnoticed to give concurrent viewpoints. I'm not opposed to changing support to mid or something else, I'm just not quick to immediately change a guide without the proper information to see why. From all games I have spectated, played and reviewed - it didn't look like Mid was good at all. The hero is released now, you can try it and tell me how it went for you - pros/cons instead of just disagreeing with my assessments and providing little to persuade me. Look at the information given to change it to mid. It has 0 foundation and relies on the idea that he should be mid because those who have similar faults as him (e.g. "no escape") do fine. It's all based on a thought rather than highlighting the value of him mid. Unfair comparison, unrefuted. On August 26 2016 01:51 Velzi wrote: Pit Lord, pretty sure you dont want to have Core and Jungle mentioned in the same guide, right now it states Core in the main title and in the item subtitle Core Item (Jungle), i would just stick on the Core everywhere and mention in the text you can follow this guide both offlane and mid. To be clear, i think at this point its safest to have 2 guides, support and core, support meaning you are pos4, getting some farm for ur items (which should focus on having maximum impact in teamfights, with either teamfight items or single target buffs/utility) and core focusing on getting some farming items first then transition into teamfight monster (through spell damage, teamfight utility and disables, not through right click). Support going Arcanes Wand Urn Drums Force Mek Pipe Solar kinda stuff Core going Arcanes Wand SR Blink Veil Hex Shivas and so on. Also level one Pit of Malice seems bad for core, i would rather start off with e if im mid, maybe w if im off. Keep it simple until we get some more data going on and more people trying stuff. Ogre, I do agree R>W>E>Q seems better in pro games right now, but i wouldnt count on it working in pubs. And that whole "escape mechanism" is bullshit, u dont pick hero to mid because he has escape mechanism, rather other way around. U can definitely play hero mid without escape mechanism, u just have to be tiny bit more careful when enemy heroes are missing and lane if pushing, thats it. "Just be more careful", not a valid argument. this isn't victimization, this is clear and utter disregard for my effort in not only responding to feedback - but providing circumstances and situations where I have seen, experienced or noticed in recent builds. What you're saying is just straight-up a misportrayal. Three years ago, when I was very unfamiliar with many of the heroes, I heavily relied on feedback to fill in my lack of experience. That dynamic has changed because I've changed and the system has changed. Everything's changed and so has my reception to feedback that does not meet a growing standard to be both reasoned and informed. The guides have to go through me, and I said it before that if I could have it any other way - I would. But since they can't, they have to be understood by me so they can be considered in future changes and alterations I make that are not suggested from user feedback. I am always interested in what people have to suggest, but the project has always meant that I can continue to improve and learn with it I'm not taking suggestions at face-value if they don't match my own viewpoint (as flawed as it is, that improves the more I play and learn). At best, I am a 3-4K pub. If it doesn't beat my "stubbornness" then I am less likely to recall the logic behind the change or the rationale in dismissing other changes that seem equal valuable at 'face-value' there is no rage, I took everyone's arguments and then saw that neither of mine were being rebuttaled or only one in particular was responded to with off-the-fly thoughts that aren't fair or can be compared. On August 26 2016 02:47 Sn0_Man wrote: It's another symptom of putting up a bunch of guides on heroes that nobody understands, hoping to grab the early subscribers. Then once we actually understand where a hero belongs, the no-longer-relevant guides are hard to get rid of because there are a bunch of subscribers to it already. Here's what happens when you don't put out the necessary guides: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=750406446 You get a Pub Carry build with a significant portion of subscribers. You call it a symptom like it is a bad thing, but the alternative situation is bad, if not worse. You already know this and yet you still choose to talk like the decision is bad. On top of that, feedback in the past was: 1. Make 1 guide 2. We need 2 guides for Underlord 3. Now we need 2 guides for Underlord and one should be support and mid 4. Now make it Support and Core Hero has been out for literally 2 days and no matter how much I adjust, refuse to adjust or try to safeguard against all scenarios - the antagonism is overbearing and critical. That's not me being victim, that's the result of where it is at. When I am reasonble, I say: "okay, let's wait and see how it plays out professionally or when Underlord is more regularly played" and it is still not acknowledged, but rather undermined in more ways than one. | ||
|
Velzi
Finland659 Posts
I mean how can u explain something like Underlord being valid mid hero without having escape mechanism (which is the argument u used when u tried to deny us proposing Mid UL rather than Offlane) other than saying he doesnt need escape mechanism to be valid mid hero? Im just gonna round it up here for me about UL: I think we should have 2 guides, Core (Off/Mid) and Support, support with normal support stuff items, Core with Normal Core caster items, with subtitle Mid->Bottle and Off->Iron Talon- | ||
|
Thetwinmasters
3578 Posts
| ||
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 26 2016 03:20 Velzi wrote: So you are saying because sometimes we are not explaining our reasonings behind our suggestions they are automatically wrong? I mean how can u explain something like Underlord being valid mid hero without having escape mechanism (which is the argument u used when u tried to deny us proposing Mid UL rather than Offlane) other than saying he doesnt need escape mechanism to be valid mid hero? Im just gonna round it up here for me about UL: I think we should have 2 guides, Core (Off/Mid) and Support, support with normal support stuff items, Core with Normal Core caster items, with subtitle Mid->Bottle and Off->Iron Talon- How are they automatically wrong and where am I saying that? Time and time again, I will put up my reasoning and ask for clarifications both on how my arguments could be wrong (which they can) and what makes yours the correct perspective. When I read your suggestions and opinions, I double-check with my findings, give my perspective on it and hope to either be corrected or agreed with. It's not a question of right/wrong - it's about giving surrounding information for it to be understood. Read what you write, there's nothing for me to make an informed decision. "And that whole "escape mechanism" is bullshit, u dont pick hero to mid because he has escape mechanism, rather other way around. U can definitely play hero mid without escape mechanism, u just have to be tiny bit more careful when enemy heroes are missing and lane if pushing, thats it." How is that convincing? 'Just be more careful' is not good surrounding information for me to make Underlord a Core/Mid guide. How is that argument not applicable to many heroes who aren't traditionally played mid? I mean how can u explain something like Underlord being valid mid hero without having escape mechanism (which is the argument u used when u tried to deny us proposing Mid UL rather than Offlane) other than saying he doesnt need escape mechanism to be valid mid hero? Is that my argument? Or is it on top of the many other things I said and that you refuse to acknowledge: I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered. His biggest issue mid is that he has no escape. The upside is that he can use the adjoining jungle camps to farm. If W also pierces BKB, then he can also potentially stack ancients as well. To add, saying Atrophy Aura makes you unkillable is pretty inaccurate vs. the usual mid-laners that can nuke you down. Underlord is a melee hero with low armour and you use Zeus, Shadowfiend and Storm as comparisons who all have: 1. Guaranteed forms of getting last hits/wiping waves 2. Ranged forms of attacks to diminish risk of overreaching 3. Good use of the mid-lane In addition, he doesn't take advantage of the early levels as well as any of those heroes. To top it off, he can jungle and be active with his W and Atrophy Aura damage. You don't even come back to the points I make about your suggestion: We already have an offlane build. why does Pit of Malice level 1 seem bad? These sort of arguments are fucking terrible because they do not give an informed opinion. Just a "feeling" which is useless unless I somehow feel the same way. Which I don't. Pit of Malice seems bad? It's a Level 1 - 1 second AOE stun with 100 damage. It's the same damage and stun duration as Vengeful Spirit. It's great for 0:00 rune. Good for any trilane and is more guaranteed damage than Firestorm. Firestorm level 1 is bad. Atrophy Aura pushes the lane. So if we make the Core "Safe Lane' then it will be mis-interpreted. what about this? | ||
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 26 2016 03:22 Thetwinmasters wrote: DS should be 4-4-2-1 at 11 instead of 3-4-2-2 and blink should probably be core over greaves I saw this at The International. It was a mix of one point in E and two points in Q or your suggested: 3-4-2-2. I understand the value of 2 points in E, so I will change it to your suggestion. I think I avoided adding Blink to Dark Seer because I was fearful it'd be too difficult for players. That's an antiquated view, so I will change that too. thanks | ||
|
Velzi
Finland659 Posts
I dont know how i could be more convincing, i just told what i think and thats it, used it how u please. The "Underlord has no escape mechanism so he shouldnt be played mid" is definitely your argument. Also he does take advantage of levels atleast well as other heroes mentioned. I dont see what i have to comment about ur other points, i agree with farming jungle camps with q which requires levels u get from mid and items to keep up mana u get from mid. Last bolded, i think u shouldnt start with level 1 pit of malice because lvl1 atrophy aura is too good to not have in midlane because it pretty much wins u the lane if u are not against zeus who doesnt care about his autoattack damage (at which point u are fine with w because u dont need e to out last hit), but most of the time u should take e first to secure last hits in the first few lanes vs pretty much every hero uses autoattack to last hit. | ||
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Ignite 2. Bloodlust 3. Fireblast) Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items  RikiNew Skill Build: E Q W E E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Cloak and Dagger 2. Smoke Screen 3. Blink Strike) Oracle (Support) Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items Removed Guardian Greaves  Dark SeerNew Skill Build: W E W E W R W Q Q Q Q R E E R (1. Ion Shell 2. Vacuum 3. Surge) Added Lotus Orb to Situational Items Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items | ||
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 26 2016 03:41 Velzi wrote: You are not saying they are automatically wrong but thats the feeling i have whenever i suggest something right after u have changed something to direction i disagree with. I dont know how i could be more convincing, i just told what i think and thats it, used it how u please. The "Underlord has no escape mechanism so he shouldnt be played mid" is definitely your argument. Also he does take advantage of levels atleast well as other heroes mentioned. I dont see what i have to comment about ur other points, i agree with farming jungle camps with q which requires levels u get from mid and items to keep up mana u get from mid. Last bolded, i think u shouldnt start with level 1 pit of malice because lvl1 atrophy aura is too good to not have in midlane because it pretty much wins u the lane if u are not against zeus who doesnt care about his autoattack damage (at which point u are fine with w because u dont need e to out last hit), but most of the time u should take e first to secure last hits in the first few lanes vs pretty much every hero uses autoattack to last hit. A published guide is assumed to be right until proven factually inaccurate. That's the dynamic. The guide is just a culmination of my findings, experience or based on feedback to create what it is. Future feedback aims to disprove or highlight the inaccuracies of the guide. Have you tried or seen Underlord mid? How does his extra levels benefit him equal or more than other heroes? If anything, that ease should be for the Offlane and to not be tied to a lane and be more maneuverable - since he can flash-farm so much better. He doesn't take advantage of the levels better than Zeus, who can be very proactive with faster level. For Shadow Fiend, he is reliant on mid for the souls to hasten his farm in the future. For Underlord, the levels means more Fire Storm, which isn't amazing Still 1 level in Pit of Malice and a scaling Aura that helps prevent defenses against pushes - assuming your team pushes with you. Why tie Underlord middle when there is room for other heroes who can win the lane more securely (Tinker/Queen of Pain/Storm Spirit - even Alchemist) and he can freely farm in the Offlane or as a maneuverable support in the Safe Lane/Jungle. He can provide harassment/support for the carry in the Safe Lane and not rely on the Safe Lane for farm (similar to Winter Wyvern who stacks camps and uses her W + Soul Ring to farm it). Yes, but the guide is not midlane. Atrophy Aura doesn't work against many mid-heroes: Alchemist Arc Warden Death Prophet Ember Spirit Gyrocopter Huskar Invoker Kunkka (?) Leshrac Lina Mirana Outworld Devourer Pudge Queen of Pain Shadow Fiend Skywrath Mage Tinker Tiny Zeus Atrophy Aura only works on Base Damage. Heroes who deal pure/magic or direct additional damage (Shadow Fiend + Souls) still deal the majority of their damage. Enough to zone you out or punish in the lane. Additionally, your only way of push the laning back is through Fire Storm which is weak until level 2-3 and even then. This is my understanding - did I misunderstand something or is my viewpoint unrealistic? Right now there is one person playing Underlord Middle and he's playing him like a carry: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/7732326/matches?hero=underlord Everyone else that I am watching in Dota 2 is just playing him Offlane or actually Jungling (5k to 6.5k MMR) This is the depth I go to establish my understanding of the hero. It might be wrong, flawed or lacking - but I am not finding or receiving any other opinions with a logical reasoning | ||
|
Velzi
Finland659 Posts
I know the guide is not Mid but if u have separate Offlane guide and Core guide, where u expect them to go with the Core guide? Safelane? Mid? I'm pretty sure 99% of the people using Core guide will go mid. | ||
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 26 2016 04:23 Velzi wrote: Atrophy Aura works vs most of the heroes u listed when fighting for the last hits (1. increasing ur autoattack damage significantly 2. reducing enemy autoattack damage around 8-12). I can only agree with Zeus to be hero u shouldnt start with Atrophy Aura lvl1 mid, other heroes u mentioned use their autoattacks to last hit in lane. I know the guide is not Mid but if u have separate Offlane guide and Core guide, where u expect them to go with the Core guide? Safelane? Mid? I'm pretty sure 99% of the people using Core guide will go mid. Good point, I did not consider that it hurts them trying to last-hit - only how Atrophy Aura safeguards against harassment. In my mind, when I see Underlord mid, I just see how he has very little to ensure staying alive Mid AND how he takes advantage of those early levels - which usually doesn't lead to much at all (or nothing I saw was directly impactful). I know the guide is not Mid but if u have separate Offlane guide and Core guide, where u expect them to go with the Core guide? Safelane? Mid? I'm pretty sure 99% of the people using Core guide will go mid. I will just change it back to Support to avoid confusion. The Core guide has a sub-title: "Jungle", but if I write Safe Lane, it will be misconstrued. | ||
|
Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
having 80 damage lets you out-deny chain lightning and makes last hitting easier plus pushes the wave passively. It's not like your other spells are going to allow you to do anything better in the lane at level 1 | ||
|
ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
| ||
|
Velzi
Finland659 Posts
On August 26 2016 04:27 Torte de Lini wrote: Good point, I did not consider that it hurts them trying to last-hit - only how Atrophy Aura safeguards against harassment. In my mind, when I see Underlord mid, I just see how he has very little to ensure staying alive Mid AND how he takes advantage of those early levels - which usually doesn't lead to much at all (or nothing I saw was directly impactful). I will just change it back to Support to avoid confusion. The Core guide has a sub-title: "Jungle", but if I write Safe Lane, it will be misconstrued. Finally on the same page about something. Jungle subtitle is problematic because u are pretty much jungling only if u dont better things to do (as a support securing farm, as a mid farming camps between waves or as a offlaner if u get zoned out of lane). Now that i think about it, Only thing u really need to rotate to jungle efficiently is the Iron Talon, dunno how to include that in without creating more confusion. On August 26 2016 04:28 Sn0_Man wrote: I'd start with atrophy aura vs zeus having 80 damage lets you out-deny chain lightning and makes last hitting easier plus pushes the wave passively. It's not like your other spells are going to allow you to do anything better in the lane at level 1 Didn't think of that. Only thing really favoring lvl1 Pit of Malice is the kill potential at the minute 0 rune fights and instant smoke gank from supports. Not that u should expect smoke from the supports at pubs but i'm just theorycrafting. | ||
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
What an honor. | ||
|
Belisarius
Australia6226 Posts
Naturally some of those options will turn out to be redundant, but there's no harm in it. The problem comes later when we never actually delete any of the redundant guides because stats. This seems particularly true for pitlord as he is quite versatile at this point. His possible options are mid, offlane, and support. With two guides, we could cover all three of those at once by doing Core + Support. This is what I have said we should do from the beginning, and it still seems the best option to me. All we would need to do is: Rename Offlane guide to Core. Rename starting items to “Starting items – offlane” Add “Starting items - mid” tab with stout+salve/tango+QB (?) Add bottle to earlygame or situational There is nothing wrong with keeping things as Offlane+Support, except that we lose the people who want to play him in a farming position, and consequently give subscribers to a bunch of pubtrash carry builds going battlefury and w/e. For what it’s worth, I think mid pitlord isn't great and will probably only get used as a niche counterpick. However, since nobody knows for sure yet, we lose absolutely nothing by tweaking the offlane build to include it. | ||
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
let me take another look at Underlord. It may be a bit more creative/less traditional style of categorization by the feel of things. | ||
|
Belisarius
Australia6226 Posts
There's a ton of heroes that can be played both mid and offlane in the same way. Timbersaw, sandking and huskar are examples in the TI6 meta, plus a zillion others in pubs like brew, magnus, legion, necro, veno etc. None of them build much differently coming out of mid. Mid just starts with less regen and more lane dominance (null/quelling etc), and considers bottle. Off the top of my head, the only modern hero that has real changes to his itemisation for offlane versus core is void. The same thing is true of safelane core versus mid core as well. We're still maintaining a dozen-odd not-quite-duplicate guides like mid/safe weaver/tiny/troll, and I don't understand why when you're already feeling burnt out. While you're looking at underlord, I think you should consider what I said on the last page as well: On August 25 2016 21:42 Belisarius wrote: Either way I still don't think Vlads is core and he should probably have necro somewhere. I don't see much point in octarine. Also raindrops. Maybe consider delaying his ult to like 8 or 9 too. The support guide needs your normal tab for wards/cour/gem etc. I'm not sold on that skill build, but his early points as a support seem pretty fluid so w/e. Probably depends whether he's afk stacking, duo roaming or sitting in lane making someone's lasthits a misery with atrophy. I'd prefer WQQWQ as default. | ||
| ||
