On August 24 2016 05:37 Torte de Lini wrote: Watching higher-level matches of Underlord. Seen a lot of weird builds.
No one has tried Vlads -> Blink yet though
thats because neither of those items make any sense on him
and it's suggested he plays Offlane or Safe Lane/Jungle Support
Because he doesnt take advantage of the levels
On August 25 2016 04:59 Sn0_Man wrote: Why does jungle underlord start with his worst jungling ability that makes no sense at all or should i say why is underlord "support" guide sub titled jungle. Jungle is the subtitle to an offlane build imo.
I also think Underlord's primary lane should be mid as he literally cannot lose that lane with level 1 E.
On August 25 2016 04:59 Sn0_Man wrote: Why does jungle underlord start with his worst jungling ability that makes no sense at all or should i say why is underlord "support" guide sub titled jungle. Jungle is the subtitle to an offlane build imo.
I also think Underlord's primary lane should be mid as he literally cannot lose that lane with level 1 E.
I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered.
His biggest issue mid is that he has no escape. The upside is that he can use the adjoining jungle camps to farm. If W also pierces BKB, then he can also potentially stack ancients as well.
First ability for support is for 0:00 rune or tri-lane purposes. He gets level 2 relatively quickly regardless when stacking/pulling, the early W allows for any early ganks or 2:00 rune gank also. It's not awful.
Offlane is sub-titled as Offlane. There is no need for a sub-title for Offlane, but for consistency, we just transfer over the main title.
His real primary lane is Offlane however.
"his biggest issue mid is that he has no escape" no thats his biggest issue offlane lolz mid its irrelevant
w pierces bkb (not the damage to my knowledge) but regardless it does 100 flat damage at all levels hows that help do ancients lmao
as support of course you get w then q then w then q never get aura and never jungle thats the point. The role that goes to the jungle is the offlane
Video shows ideal version of Support - Underlord: With Atrophy Aura AND Jungling
and my reasoning behind my arguments were accurate.
I'm showing this not to say that I'm right, but that I am giving my view with supporting rationale/thoughts and I am not receiving it back in a similar manner.
On August 24 2016 05:37 Torte de Lini wrote: Watching higher-level matches of Underlord. Seen a lot of weird builds.
No one has tried Vlads -> Blink yet though
thats because neither of those items make any sense on him
Why not?
Vlads: Early Armour, Team Damage + Lifesteal + Mana Regen. Two of those things Underlord likes and the other two are things his team-oriented hero likes.
Blink has a variety of usefulness:
- Initiation (Stack damage from creeps, Blink on Foe, Pit + Firestorm) - Saving Teammates: Start Rift + Blink onto ally - Cleaner: Initiate onto enemies, let enemies die, chase almost-dead enemies with Blink to finish them in one hit with your big damage.
On August 25 2016 04:59 Sn0_Man wrote: Why does jungle underlord start with his worst jungling ability that makes no sense at all or should i say why is underlord "support" guide sub titled jungle. Jungle is the subtitle to an offlane build imo.
I also think Underlord's primary lane should be mid as he literally cannot lose that lane with level 1 E.
I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered.
His biggest issue mid is that he has no escape. The upside is that he can use the adjoining jungle camps to farm. If W also pierces BKB, then he can also potentially stack ancients as well.
First ability for support is for 0:00 rune or tri-lane purposes. He gets level 2 relatively quickly regardless when stacking/pulling, the early W allows for any early ganks or 2:00 rune gank also. It's not awful.
Offlane is sub-titled as Offlane. There is no need for a sub-title for Offlane, but for consistency, we just transfer over the main title.
His real primary lane is Offlane however.
"his biggest issue mid is that he has no escape" no thats his biggest issue offlane lolz mid its irrelevant
w pierces bkb (not the damage to my knowledge) but regardless it does 100 flat damage at all levels hows that help do ancients lmao
as support of course you get w then q then w then q never get aura and never jungle thats the point. The role that goes to the jungle is the offlane
Having no escape offlane as opposed to middle are vastly different in terms of severity of an issue. If I can't get close to exp. range in the offlane, I have the adjoining jungle camps to take advantage of.
I would say if you can't safely take the middle lane and are getting ganked, it has a much higher consequence of events as opposed to the Offlane. On top of that, you are most susceptible to ganks from both sides as opposed to Offlane which you can sometimes see coming (depending if they deward you or not).
Stacking Ancients:
W doesn't do damage to the main ancient creep, but works on his minions, causing them to stack.
Max Atrophy Aura reduces the damage taken from camps heavily. With Vanguard, you can take entire stacks of the camp without taking any real damage
You can take the camps with the stacked damage from the lane and do Ancients at a decent pace (with Firestorm killing the smaller units
To add, saying Atrophy Aura makes you unkillable is pretty inaccurate vs. the usual mid-laners that can nuke you down.
A single point in Aura is no different than Crystal Maiden utilizing her single point in Frostbite, which she does at Level 1. To not use an early point in Atrophy Aura to take out camps meanwhile your carry lanes (and you can gank with W whenever necessary with extra damage) seems silly to me.
As I said before: "I'm holding off on a "mid" guide until there are more concrete results/data and he is being more regularly played/seen/countered."
On August 27 2016 07:56 Belisarius wrote: It's not really that creative. This is what I/we originally envisaged doing for a lot of heroes when we switched to the core/support/offlane system, in order to reduce the number of guides.
There's a ton of heroes that can be played both mid and offlane in the same way. Timbersaw, sandking and huskar are examples in the TI6 meta, plus a zillion others in pubs like brew, magnus, legion, necro, veno etc.
None of them build much differently coming out of mid. Mid just starts with less regen and more lane dominance (null/quelling etc), and considers bottle. Off the top of my head, the only modern hero that has real changes to his itemisation for offlane versus core is void.
The same thing is true of safelane core versus mid core as well. We're still maintaining a dozen-odd not-quite-duplicate guides like mid/safe weaver/tiny/troll, and I don't understand why when you're already feeling burnt out.
While you're looking at underlord, I think you should consider what I said on the last page as well:
On August 25 2016 21:42 Belisarius wrote: Either way I still don't think Vlads is core and he should probably have necro somewhere. I don't see much point in octarine. Also raindrops. Maybe consider delaying his ult to like 8 or 9 too.
The support guide needs your normal tab for wards/cour/gem etc. I'm not sold on that skill build, but his early points as a support seem pretty fluid so w/e. Probably depends whether he's afk stacking, duo roaming or sitting in lane making someone's lasthits a misery with atrophy. I'd prefer WQQWQ as default.
The duplicate guides reduce the work, removing and replacing them with more guides will lead to feeling more burnt out.
The manual task of adjusting their item builds or skill builds (now easier/faster because they are counterparts to each other) is the least taxing thing. It's the research and double-checking that I have to do and having to verify suggestions/feedback.
1. Because I don't have an arrogance to think I am above feedback, no matter how lacking in reasoning it may seem 2. Because people's opinions may have legitimate substance/foundation, they just didn't provide enough surrounding information/reasoning (e.g.: "I feel X, I've noticed Y, How come Z doesn't have W?")
The manual work of updating guides is an hour of work a day. The research, follow-through and close observation of builds, matches and information (from videos, posts and discussions) is 3 to 4 hours a day.
Call me burnt out, but we've hit a quality that I am personally satisfied with and despite some key lacking areas - the alternative is nil: no other competitors, no other guide makers, no one putting in the same amount of hours or dedication to updates and no updates to the hero build system to reward newcomers (or give them a fighting chance).
Growth has been consistent for 2 years: 6 million new subscriptions a month, every month (24 months). More than 50% of the guides have 1 million subscriptions and that isn't translating to any new Patreon campaigners or more outside feedback than this thread (just a lot of overly-critical, trolling private messages and a lot of attacks whenever I play public matches).
Call me a defeatist, but I'm okay with the current status quo and I'm sorry that's how I feel and it's clear from my recent posts that I am on edge and a bit annoyed about recurring issues that come from both my side (personal issues include) and the few remaining people still coming by to give their thoughts (which I still appreciate, despite my rude attitude).
I have no idea why you're allcapsing me when there's nothing in my post that's even tangentially related to your rant.
Purge agrees with you, that's fine. I don't. He doesn't need regen to jungle like void because he has firestorm, and an early vlads is generally poor value for money in combat as many people have already explained. It's not terrible but I think there are more impactful things he can do with his gold. I strongly disagree that an afk jungle 4pos is the ideal, on any hero.
Plenty of people have explained that, whether you agree with them or not. This has happened before. Every time we disagree with you, you demand that we provide arguments. Everyone does so. Then you demand that we provide arguments. You disagreeing with us does not mean we have not made a case.
You still haven't addressed any of the other things I said. Necro's application should be obvious - he wants to be bulky and push, it makes him bulkier and pushes. Raindrops makes him unbelievably difficult to kill around ten minutes and gives needed mana regen. Octarine is a massive investment for very little return. Support stuff on the support guide should be a no-brainer.
On August 25 2016 21:42 Belisarius wrote: Either way I still don't think Vlads is core and he should probably have necro somewhere. I don't see much point in octarine. Also raindrops. Maybe consider delaying his ult to like 8 or 9 too.
The support guide needs your normal tab for wards/cour/gem etc. I'm not sold on that skill build, but his early points as a support seem pretty fluid so w/e. Probably depends whether he's afk stacking, duo roaming or sitting in lane making someone's lasthits a misery with atrophy. I'd prefer WQQWQ as default.
Vlad's is Core for Support and we'll keep Offlane different.
Yes to Necro 3 I'll remove Octarine Core to make room for Necro 3
Yes, agree Ult delay to 8 or 9 either for Offlane or Support (I want one to be a proactive earlier fighter and the other more focused on his core items [so earlier Fire Storm maxed, etc.])
Yes, I will add a normal tab for Wards/Cour/Gem
Yes on on Raindrop
You should assume he is very active in the jungle, initiating ganks in the safe lane or denying rune/ganking mid for the support build.
On August 27 2016 09:16 Belisarius wrote: I have no idea why you're allcapsing me when there's nothing in my post that's even tangentially related to your rant.
Purge agrees with you, that's fine. I don't. He doesn't need regen to jungle like void because he has firestorm, and an early vlads is generally poor value for money in combat as many people have already explained. It's not terrible but I think there are more impactful things he can do with his gold. Plenty of people have explained that, whether you agree with them or not.
You still haven't addressed any of the other things I said. Necro's application should be obvious - he wants to be bulky and push, it makes him bulkier and pushes. Raindrops makes him unbelievably difficult to kill around ten minutes and gives needed mana regen. Octarine is a massive investment for very little return. Support stuff on the support guide should be a no-brainer.
I didn't see your post until now, I was watching the video and started noticing that he was saying a lot of what I was saying/noticing.
I just addressed your suggestions which I agree with.
I think Vlad's is very good for a very proactive support Underlord who can't AFK farm for larger items, but still wants that sweet armour, health and mana regen bonus that Vlad provides. I think it's a very strong early/mid-game item that Underlord can rapidly get to push for early towers (then shoot for larger items)
Oh now I see, I apparently quoted you in my video post. Strange.
I'd rather see arcanes mek on the support version. Those give him bulk and build into greaves comfortably.
If you must use it, vlads makes more sense on the core version because by the time the support gets it his actual cores will be clearing the jungle themselves. It really isn't very cost effective for early pushing and supports can't afford to be inefficient with their gold at all.
One thing to note is that Purge only played three matches, two of which were unranked.
On August 27 2016 09:32 Belisarius wrote: I'd rather see arcanes mek on the support version. Those give him bulk and build into greaves comfortably.
If you must use it, vlads makes more sense on the core version because by the time the support gets it his actual cores will be clearing the jungle themselves. It really isn't very cost effective for early pushing and supports can't afford to be inefficient with their gold at all.
In my head, it is smarter to get smaller items for heroes who are intermittently farming over giving them the task of larger items which may or may not be attainable.
That way, the user doesn't feel shackled to still try and get Mekansm if he simply doesn't have the time or consistency to farm it.
On top of that, Support is going Soul Ring + Tranquil Boots. It makes less sense for him to get Meka over the Offlane who will be going Arcane Boots.
On August 27 2016 09:34 Thetwinmasters wrote: Ogre goes w-e for his first 2 levels
How so/Why?
I didn't see that in any recent matches if I recall.
The last 15 matches at ti all went level 1 w with around 10 going e level 2 expect for a few games where they went q level 2 and you go level 1 w cause its way more damage and level 1 q does practically zero damage
1. Looks like a good mix of both 2. Looks like the goal to maxing E is very situational depending on the line-up and playstyle (some even maxing Q last completely) 3. Pub matches are a lot more in line with what I expected, sometimes maxing E earlier, but otherwise prioritizing maxing W first. 4. Still don't see a full reasoning to make the standard max Q/E, it seems more like a purpose (like tri-lane ganking with Beastmaster for example)
My build is the middle-ground that acknowledges a lot of carry heroes fighting by the mid-game (PA/Juggernaut) but also maxes W
One thing I am thinking is switching Ogre Magi's build from Arcane Boots -> Soul Ring Tranquil Boots - especially with Q delayed - thus less mana cost.
On August 27 2016 10:50 Thetwinmasters wrote: 1-4-1-1 into 1-4-4-2 is fine level 1 q isn't fine though
Ok, I will switch it. I think I changed it on purpose because I personally like the 1.5 stun, but I can see how 5 second slow is just better with the improved damage.
Ogre Magi New Skill Build: W E Q W W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Ignite 2. Bloodlust 3. Fireblast) Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items
Riki New Skill Build: E Q W E E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Cloak and Dagger 2. Smoke Screen 3. Blink Strike)
Bloodseeker (Jungle) New Skill Build: Q E E Q E R E W W W R W Q Q R (1. Thirst 2. Blood Rite 3. Bloodrage) Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items Added Mjollnir to Extension Items Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items Moved Blade Mail to Extension Items Removed Moon Shard
Bloodseeker (Core/Mid) New Skill Build: Q E E Q E R E W Q Q R W W W (1. Thirst 2. Blood Rite 3. Bloodrage) Added Phase Boots to Core Items Added Sange & Yasha to Core Items Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items Added Mjollnir to Extension Items Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items Moved Poor Man's Shield to Starting Items Moved Silver Edge to Situational Items Moved Blade Mail to Extension Items Removed Stout Shield Removed Iron Branch x2 Removed Healing Salve Removed Power Treads Removed Shadow Blade Removed Moon Shard
Bloodseeker (Core/Safe) Added Mjollnir to Extension Items Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items Moved Blade Mail to Extension Items Removed Iron Branch x2 Removed Moon Shard
Oracle (Support) Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items Removed Guardian Greaves
Dark Seer New Skill Build: W E W E W R W Q Q Q Q R E E R (1. Ion Shell 2. Vacuum 3. Surge) Added Lotus Orb to Situational Items Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items
Winter Wyvern Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items Moved Aether Lens to Core Items Moved Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Underlord (Support) New Skill Build: E Q Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Firestorm 2. Pit of Malice 3. Atrophy Aura) Created New Tab: "Utility Items" Added Tango to Starting Items Added Buckler to Core Items Added Infused Raindrop to "Utility Items" Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items" Added Sentry Wards to "Utility Items" Added Dust of Appearance to "Utility Items" Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items" Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items" Added Necromonicon - Level 3 to Situational Items Moved Vladmir's Offering to Core Items Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items Moved Drum of Endurance to Situational Items Moved Force Staff to Extension Items Moved Pipe of Insight to Extension Items Removed Lotus Orb Removed Octarine Core
Underlord (Offlane) New Skill Build: E Q Q E Q W Q R W W R W E E R (1. Firestorm 2. Pit of Malice 3. Atrophy Aura) Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items Added Vladmir's Offering to Core Items Added Soul Ring to Core Items Added Magic Wand to Core Items Added Necromonicon - Level 3 to Situational Items Moved Guardian Greaves to Situational Items Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items Moved Force Staff to Extension Items Moved Pipe of Insight to Extension Items Moved Crimson Guard to Extension Items Removed Lotus Orb Removed Octarine Core
EPT
