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On June 02 2016 02:51 Sn0_Man wrote:
What's the build goal for lesh lane?
because lightning is much better mid (where pushing the lane is valuable and CSing with spells is fine) compared to in lane where it's only use is to set up stun (and as such doesn't really improve after the first point).
I am purely following what is being built both in public and competitive play right now. It's either Lightning later on or not at all (Q/W + Stats).
Players are avoiding lightning to opt for better AOE/Pushing and relying on others slows or stuns (or getting an early Blink Dagger) to get off Split Earth rather than expending mana for a tiny nuke.
Early lightning to help with last-hits or to harass the foe is proving ineffective unless you can see beyond the river which isn't always guaranteed and even less so in lower levels.
At least with an early max in Edict, hard pushes for all T1 towers and the gearing towards early-game fights can be maybe more effective than maxing lightning.
For the Lane build, I will make it one point in Lightning.
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On June 02 2016 02:54 Velzi wrote: Middle : Pretty sure u want to have Aether Lens somewhere there, increased stun range is ridiculously good especially when u are not fat enough to stand in the middle of the fight.
Blink Dagger in Extension Items is its substitute and an early Bloodstone is still preferred.
We can add it in Situational Items
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Transition of the Hero Builds Title Classification System
Renamed Core
Abaddon
 Alchemist (Middle) -> Core Middle + Safe Lane Starting Items
Alchemist (Lane)
New Core Build: E W W Q W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Unstable Concoction 2. Acid Spray 3. Greevil's Greed)
 Anti-Mage
Arc Warden (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q E E W R W W W R (1. Flux 2. Spark Wraith 3. Magnetic Field)
Added Wraith Band to Starting Items
Added Manta Style to Core Items
Added Diffusal Blade to Core Items
Added Satanic to Extension Items
Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Black King Bar to Situational Items
Moved Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Ring of Protection
Removed Clarity
Removed Boots of Speed
Removed Necromonicon - Level 3
 Axe (Lane)
 Bloodseeker (Middle)
New Skill Build: W Q E E E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Thirst 2. Bloodrage 3. Blood Rite)
Added Shadow Blade to Core Items
Added Silver Edge to Extension Items
Removed Skull Basher
Bloodseeker (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E E Q E R E W Q Q R W W W R (1. Thirst 2. Bloodrage 3. Blood Rite)
Added Boots of Speed to Early Game
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Skull Basher
 Brewmaster (Middle)
Chaos Knight
 Clinkz
Death Prophet
Dragon Knight (Lane)
Dragon Knight (Middle)
Drow Ranger
Earth Spirit (Middle)
Added Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Moved Orb of Venom to Starting Items
Elder Titan (Middle)
Ember Spirit (Lane)
Ember Spirit (Middle)
 Gyrocopter (Lane)
Gyrocopter (Middle)
 Kunkka (Middle)
 Huskar
 Invoker (Quas/Exort)
Invoker (Quas/Wex)
 Juggernaut
Legion Commander (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Overwhelming Odds 2. Press The Attack 3. Moment of Courage)
Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Moved Desolator to Extension Items
Removed Satanic
Leshrac (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W W Q W R W Q Q E R E E E R (1. Diabolic Edict 2. Split Earth 3. Lightning Storm)
Added Null Talisman to Starting Items
Added Veil of Discord to Situational Items
Added Aether Lens to Situational Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Circlet of Nobility
Removed Aghanim's Scepter
 Lifestealer (Lane)
 Lina (Middle)
 Luna
Lone Druid (Lane)
Lycan (Lane)
 Magnus
 Medusa
 Meepo
Added Bottle to Core Items
Added Iron Talon to Core Items
Added Boots of Travel to Core Items
Removed Power Treads
Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2
 Morphling
Naga Siren (Lane)
New Skill Build:
Added Poor Man's Shield to Early Game
Added Arcane Boots to Early Game
Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Moved Manta Style to Core Items
Moved Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Situational Items
Removed Wraith Band
Necrophos
Night Stalker
Nyx Assassin (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W E Q Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Impale 2. Mana Burn 3. Spiked Carapace)
Added Tango to Starting Items
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items
Added Ethereal Blade to Extension Items
Added Octarine Core to Extension Items
Added Dagon - Level 5 to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Lotus Orb
Oracle (Middle)
Added Animal Courier to Starting Items
Added Tango to Starting Items
Added Wind Lace to Starting Items
Added Clairty to Starting Items
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Mekansm to Core Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items
Moved Aether Lens to Extension Items
Removed Null Talisman
Removed Bottle
Outworld Devourer
 Phantom Assassin
 Phantom Lancer
 Puck
 Pudge
 Pugna
Queen of Pain
 Razor
 Riki
 Silencer (Middle)
Skywrath Mage
Added Null Talisman to Starting Items
Added Boots of Speed to Core Items
Added Soul Ring to Core Items
Added Bloodstone to Core Items
Added Black King Bar to Situational Items
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items
Moved Rod of Atos to Extension Items
Moved Aether Lens to Extension Items
Removed Clarity
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Faerie Fire
Removed Urn of Shadows
Removed Power Treads
 Slark (Lane)
Slark (Middle)
 Shadow Fiend
Added Healing Salve to Core Items
Added Ring of Aquila to Core Items
Added Helm of the Dominator to Core Items
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Moved Bottle to Situational Items
Moved Silver Edge to Situational Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
 Sniper (Lane)
Sniper (Middle)
 Spectre
Storm Spirit
 Sven
Terrorblade
 Tinker
 Tiny (Lane)
Tiny (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W Q WW Q R W Q Q E R E E E R (1. Toss 2. Avalanche 3. Craggy Exterior)
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Moved Quelling Blade to Situational Items
Removed Wind Lace
Troll Warlord (Middle)
Troll Warlord (Lane)
 Ursa (Lane)
 Viper
 Warlock (Middle)
 Weaver (Lane)
Weaver (Middle)
Windranger (Lane)
Wraith King
 Zeus
Renamed Support
Ancient Apparition (Lane)
Ancient Apparition (Middle)
Arc Warden (Middle)
Added Observer Ward x2 to Starting Items
Added Tango to Starting Items
Added Enchanted Mango to Starting Items
Added Arcane Boots to Core Items
Added Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Added Aether Lens to Core Items
Added Observer Ward to Utility Items
Added Sentry Ward to Utility Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Rod of Atos to Situational Items
Added Lotus Orb to Situational Items
Added Force Staff to Extension Items
Added Solar Crest to Extension Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items
Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items
Added Dagon - Level 5 to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Removed Faerie Fire x2
Removed Bottle
Removed Boots of Speed
Removed Necromonicon - Level 3
Removed Desolator
Removed Diffusal Blade - Level 2
Removed Black King Bar
Removed Daedalus
Removed Mjollnir
 Bane
Bounty Hunter
New Skill Build: E W Q Q Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Shuriken Toss 2. Shadow Walk 3. Jinada)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Created New Tab: "Situational Items"
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
Added Pipe of Insight to "Situational Items"
Added Heaven's Halberd to "Situational Items"
Added Linken's Sphere to "Situational Items"
Added Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Moved Force Staff to "Situational Items"
Moved Lotus Orb to "Situational Items"
Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Stout Shield
Removed Tango
Removed Clarity
Removed Animal Courier
Remove Phase Boots
Removed Bottle
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Diffusal Blade - Level 2
Removed Sange & Yasha
Removed Desolator
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Monkey King Bar
Removed Black King Bar
Crystal Maiden
 Dazzle
 Disruptor
 Earthshaker
Earth Spirit (Lane)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Clarity to Starting Items
Added Clarity to Starting Items
Added Boots of Speed to Core Items
Added Flying Courier to "Utility Items"
Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Dust of Appearance to "Utility Items"
Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
Added Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Removed Orb of Venom
Removed Enchanted Mango
IO
 Jakiro
Keeper of the Light
New Skill Build: W E E W E Q Q Q Q R W W E R R (1. Illuminate 2. Mana Leak 3. Chakra Magic)
Kunkka (Lane)
 Lich
 Lion
Leshrac (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E Q W W R W W Q Q R E E E R (1. Diabolic Edict 2. Split Earth 3. Lightning Storm
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Veil of Discord to Situational Items
Moved Aether Lens to Core Items
Moved Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Lina (Lane)
Naga Siren (Middle)
New Skill Build:
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Animal Courier to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward x2 to Starting Items
Added Healing Salve to Starting Items
Added Clarity to Starting Items
Added Arcane Boots to Core Items
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Mekansm to Core Items
Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Rod of Atos to Situational Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items
Added Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Added Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Added Solar Crest to Extension Items
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Added Shiva's Guard to Extension Items
Added Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Added Flying Courier to "Utility Items"
Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Dust of Appearance to "Utility Items"
Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Removed Quelling Blade
Removed Stout Shield
Removed Bottle
Removed Ring of Aquila
Removed Boots of Speed
Removed Power Treads
Removed Diffusal Blade
Removed Radiance
Removed Boots of Speed
Removed Yasha
Removed Town Portal Scroll
Removed Manta Style
Removed Heart of Tarrasque
Removed Butterfly
Removed Octarine Core
Nyx Assassin (Lane)
Ogre Magi
 Omniknight
Oracle (Lane)
Phoenix (Lane)
 Rubick
Sand King
New Skill Build: Q W W Q W Q Q W R E R E E E R (1. Burrowstrike 2. Sand Storm 3. Caustic Finale)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Flying Courier to "Utility Items"
Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Dust of Appearance to "Utility Items"
Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items
Moved Force Staff to Core Items
Moved Aether Lens to Extension Items
 Shadow Demon
 Shadow Shaman (Lane)
Techies
Treant Protector
 Tusk
Vengeful Spirit
 Venomancer
 Visage
Warlock (Lane)
Winter Wyvern
 Witch Doctor
Renamed Offlane
 Batrider
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Boots of Speed to Starting Items
Added Tango to Starting Items
Added Clarity to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items"
Moved Bottle to Situational Items
Removed Faerie Fire x2
Removed Iron Branch x2
Brewmaster (Lane)
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
Removed Enchanted Mango
 Bristleback
 Broodmother
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Observer Ward to Utility Items
Added Sentry Ward to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Infused Raindrop to Utility Items
Centaur Warrunner
 Clockwerk
 Dark Seer
 Doom (Lane)
Earth Spirit (Lane)
Faceless Void
Added Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Extension Items
Added Manta Style to Extension Items
Moved Diffusal Blade to Core Items
Moved Infused Raindrop to Situational Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Removed Refresher Orb
Removed Monkey King Bar
 Mirana
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items
Moved Desolator to Situational Items
Moved Manta Style to Extension Items
Spirit Breaker
 Tidehunter
Added Mekansm to Core Items
Added Force Staff to Extension Items
 Timbersaw
 Undying
Renamed Jungle
Bloodseeker (Jungle)
New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q E E W R W W W R (1. Thirst 2. Bloodrage 3. Blood Rite)
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Removed Power Treads
Removed Skull Basher
 Chen
Doom (Jungle)
 Enchantress
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Added Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Force Staff
 Enigma
New Skill Build: W Q W Q W R W E Q Q R E E E R (1. Demonic Conversion 2. Malefice 3. Midnight Pulse)
Lifestealer (Jungle)
Legion Commander (Middle)
New Skill Build: E W E Q Q R Q Q W E R E W W R (1. Overwhelming Odds 2. Moment of Courage 3. Press The Attack)
Added Quelling Blade to Starting Items
Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Moved Desolator to Extension Items
Removed Bottle
Removed Satanic
Lone Druid (Jungle)
Lycan (Jungle)
Nature's Prophet
Ursa (Jungle)
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SoCal8910 Posts
cool, im glad you're making the switch torte. its been much needed.
do you have a platform for letting people know the names are changing and why?
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On June 02 2016 08:13 BluemoonSC wrote:
cool, im glad you're making the switch torte. its been much needed.
do you have a platform for letting people know the names are changing and why?
I made a Reddit thread back in April and notified all my Patron users.
Same on Twitter.
I'll renew this change after Manila + once everything is complete.
Please note that I am not adding or removing any guides because of the inherent issues with the guide system
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On May 27 2016 16:56 Birdie wrote:
There are two issues with having a right-click or one-hit-kill bounty hunter guide.
The second is the relative strength of the build in comparison to similar things on other heroes. Take, for example, Legion Commander. Often played in the offlane, fairly good burst damage, somewhat similar build if you're going for right-clicks. The difference between the heroes is that Legion Commander has high survivability, good attack speed, and a spell which increases her attack speed (allowing her to burst people down, presumably also the goal of a right-click bounty). If I had to choose between a right-click BH and a right-click LC, I would take the LC every time because her kit is better suited to it. Bounty, on the other hand, hits very slowly, has very poor survivability, and Jinada has a longgggg cooldown. So bounty can't fight in a sustained fight, and can't burst people down with his right-clicks.
Yet you still get called out as a whore if you even say BH is a support.
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I'm glad you're finally making the switch.
However, I really don't think duplicate guides is a good idea. If you're going to have two AA guides, you may as well name one of them core. An irrelevant guide is better than a literal duplicate.
I agree getting subscribers is a pain but I'm really not sure the solution is just to freeze the guides forever.
It's also worth pointing out that voker is an anomaly because the guides overlap heavily, and you've never before done a split like that. People don't know that the other guide is there to look for, so they either change to QE or they go to the first random QW they can find
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On June 02 2016 09:55 Belisarius wrote:
I'm glad you're finally making the switch.
However, I really don't think duplicate guides is a good idea. If you're going to have two AA guides, you may as well name one of them core. An irrelevant guide is better than a literal duplicate.
I agree getting subscribers is a pain but I'm really not sure the solution is just to freeze the guides forever.
Duplicate guides is the ideal way to reduce the amount of work while preserving subscription numbers. Since removing was to remove redundant choice, the second best alternative would be to the choice redundant in of itself (since both guide are duplicates).
Neither are "irrelevant" in the sense that they both have a good subscriber base, despite one being redundant in its value/usage.
Getting subscribers is only the consequence of guides being unable to reach enough ratings to be in-game. I have a good subscription userbase (140,000,000+), but not even that is enough to get new guides in and with that large audience.
I'd rather do repetitive work for a subscribed userbase than introduce new guides (and subsequently more work) and never reach public interest.
Since the system still doesn't accommodate new guides, it is ideal to maintain the project we have now and slowly introduce new guides based on imperatives. Looking at the current suggested builds to add, I don't see any as essential but rather filling gaps that would be nice to fill.
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Support mirana is essential.
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Zeus - Support
Nature's Prophet - Offlane
Enchantress - Offlane
Are guides I considered adding, but didn't feel it was necessary yet while I am transitioning the system.
I am not familiar with Mirana - Support.
Apparently Mirana builds go Aghs -> Blink and Ethereal Blade in Extension Items though
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Support mirana is the only build that's ever got traction in comp dota for like the last year. You roam with arrow and build greaves->whatever.
I see roaming mirana all the time in pubs so it's not some weird new thing. It's crazy that we don't have it.
Aghs first is the new core build. It farms super fast. Idk if it's good enough to get traction in pro games but it's certainly the pub flavour of the moment. I said you should look at it a few pages ago.
I still strongly disagree with duplicate guides but it's your funeral.
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On June 02 2016 11:27 Belisarius wrote:
Support mirana is the only build that's ever got traction in comp dota for like the last year. You roam with arrow and build greaves->whatever.
I see roaming mirana all the time in pubs so it's not some weird new thing. It's crazy that we don't have it.
Aghs first is the new core build. It farms super fast. Idk if it's good enough to get traction in pro games but it's certainly the pub flavour of the moment. I said you should look at it a few pages ago.
I still strongly disagree with duplicate guides but it's your funeral.
Ah, the roaming build. I avoided it in fear that users would misuse how to roam or ultimately fail at it.
We can reconsider it now that the project has evolved.
I think I will:
- Make all out-of-use redundant guides, duplicates of the current popular one:
For example: Slark - Middle becomes Slark - Core, an exact duplicate of Slark - Lane (also becoming Slark - Core). Ancient Apparition - Middle becomes Ancient Apparition - Support, an exact duplication of Ancient Apparition - Lane (also becoming Ancient Apparition - Support)
- Delete Brewmaster - Middle
- Delete Warlock - Middle
- Delete Shadow Shaman - Middle
I will then have room for three more guides that are more suited.
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I mean it doesn't even have to roam. She can sit in lane and rightclick the other guys and probably acheive about as much as the average 2k support, and far more than the average earthshaker or whatever that just afks and leeches.
The main thing is that she shouldn't try to build dps off a 35 minute diffusal, which is what most "support" miranas try to do.
I assume you're deleting those three because they have the least subscribers, which I guess is fair enough, but this is still a stop-gap solution.
Eventually you're going to need to either abandon your 150-guide cap, or accept that a temporary subscriber hit is necessary to keep the system relevant. Those are the two things that are directly in opposition, here.
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hold on what's this about deleting warlock middle? Should be Warlock (Core) and Warlock (Support) with the middle one being renamed to core, surely? MVP.March is probs the best example of competitive core warlock, but everyone else runs him as support I think. I'd say core warlock is still legitimate, and can be run either mid or safelane.
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On June 02 2016 12:14 Belisarius wrote:
I mean it doesn't even have to roam. She can sit in lane and rightclick the other guys and probably acheive about as much as the average 2k support, and far more than the average earthshaker or whatever that just afks and leeches.
The main thing is that she shouldn't try to build dps off a 35 minute diffusal, which is what most "support" miranas try to do.
I assume you're deleting those three because they have the least subscribers, which I guess is fair enough, but this is still a stop-gap solution.
Eventually you're going to need to either abandon your 150-guide cap, or accept that a temporary subscriber hit is necessary to keep the system relevant. Those are the two things that are directly in opposition, here.
I seldom play Mirana, so I'll have to figure out the build after I transition the current builds
Shadow Shaman was planned to be deleted regardless. It is not just because they have the lowest subscriptions. It is because not only were they almost never played in those positions, but those specific guides have been around since February, September and December of 2014. Practically two years and despite the tremendous growth of their counterparts, they never reached any level of popularity or streaks of new subscribers when their counterpart has over the years.
They are flat-out dead builds and not in demand. There are other hero builds in-demand (as you point out) and for those multiple reasons, I feel it is okay to delete them:
- they weren't desired when created,
- they weren't desired when the others were
- they won't be desired in the future (as far as we can predict/assume)
Eventually you're going to need to either abandon your 150-guide cap, or accept that a temporary subscriber hit is necessary to keep the system relevant. Those are the two things that are directly in opposition, here.
The 150-guide cap is a precaution so that I am not overworked for what is essentially a passion project that has no monetary value and currently impedes on my day-to-day work and life. The feedback has improved tremendously, but the workload has not lessened and these latest game patches have had huge sweeping changes that are frankly a bit over-the-top for me to handle.
No sob story here, but I do have my limits.
I think the phrase "necessary to keep the system relevant" is curious when we consider the situation:
+ There's no other guide creator remotely in competition with this project.
+ If I didn't improve the system whatsoever (adding new guides or transitioning the classification), we'd still be growing 4 to 6 million new subscriptions a month, as we have for literally two consecutive years (May 2014 to May 2016)
+ There's no strong demand to improve the system in any way beyond keeping the guides up-to-date per patch
I feel the truth of the matter is that all these improvements is because of pride and dedication to make this project what it was set out to do from the start. But the necessity, as you highlight, is true, but not as dire if we consider everything. From my side, I personally feel obligated to follow-through on sound feedback and suggestions, even if I don't want to or it has a personal toll on me. But I don't particularly have a fear that this project will suddenly become irrelevant when the Hero Builds Cloud Server itself is forgotten by the developers (and is near broken) and all of anyone has given up on creating hero builds themselves. Making this project a last beacon of a forgotten tool.
On June 02 2016 12:28 Birdie wrote:
hold on what's this about deleting warlock middle? Should be Warlock (Core) and Warlock (Support) with the middle one being renamed to core, surely? MVP.March is probs the best example of competitive core warlock, but everyone else runs him as support I think. I'd say core warlock is still legitimate, and can be run either mid or safelane.
That was the plan (Warlock - Core), but it has grown only to 100,000 subscriptions in over 2 years (September 2014). I do not feel it is as relevant to public play or even some competitive play as just keeping one Warlock Guide (as a support or offlane or whatever) and adding some other hero build that is distinguished enough.
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SoCal8910 Posts
Warlock mid is probably the more ideal way to play the hero tbh
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On June 03 2016 09:01 BluemoonSC wrote:
Warlock mid is probably the more ideal way to play the hero tbh
Well, if we're keeping it, then I am only deleting two guides.
So it's just a question of a compromise.
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SoCal8910 Posts
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Almost all guides have been updated except for these eight which need massive revisions:
Arc Warden (Middle)
Change to Support
Arc Warden (Lane)
Revise Skill/Item Build for Core (Safe Lane)
Nyx Assassin (Middle)
Change to Core - Dagon build
Oracle (Middle)
Revise to Core - Support build
Skywrath Mage
Revise to Core (Middle) build
Once that is done, I will go through the list and correct any guides that were mislabeled and update starting/core item builds that could be multi-laned.
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SoCal8910 Posts
OK, so I cannot comment on the new arc warden as I have not gotten the opportunity to play him yet. same with oracle in the recent patch.
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Nyx - you don't need to go for the dagon and in fact I don't think dagon is particularly useful when you compare things like an aether, blink, agha, or force.
instead of converting to a dagon build, nyx mid should probably aim for a quick aghanims or a quick blink. i like the mobility of a blink, but other people would prefer being able to stun from a screen away sooner rather than later. anyway, look at the impact a non-dagon build had in the bracket you're aiming for. specifically check out that AM's item choices at around 11 minutes. he clearly sold them but...
the key here is being useful apart from zapping ppl. i dont like the cost or buildup of dagon unless you're super DUPER ahead and clowning around. i pooped on the mid lina (9cs @10 and i had 22 denies all in prolly the first 5 minutes bc i roamed after.
TLDR: your levels, mobility, and ability to be a nuisance is far more valuable than a dagon will provide. your goal as a mid nyx is to hit 6 quick and make everyone miserable. if you can gather a massive gold lead in hte meantime, go dagon as situational. if not, quick arcane -> agha -> blink/aether is perfect
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mid sky plays similar to zeus. arcanes, veil (no aether bc he gets more from INT than straight mana and veil gives much needed stats), bloodstone for sustain (too good to pass up), defensive item (likely a bkb), extension items (shivas, sheep, atos, travels).
situational euls/force/blink bc he's pretty speedy, but you may need to worry about certain heroes getting the better of you since you're squishy
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i'll have to think about the support naga a bit. whats wrong with making a core build?
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EPT
