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On May 27 2016 04:44 Sn0_Man wrote:
blink or force are much better items than aether lens on bounty (in extension-roam)
and can't we just be reasonable and delete everything that isn't the roam stuff i mean u put DAEDALUS up there when bounty already has a guaranteed crit ffs. that build is not seen, not viable, and not OK.
It's fine being booted from the guide, but I think it's still a good pick up sometimes.
I thought Aether was nice when you had some really dangerous AoE disables to play around. A good example being something like Black Hole or Chornosphere. Say you are BH behind your team and they get holed with the enigma being on the opposite side of the hole from you. With Aether Lens you can use enemies standing in the black hole beating on your allies to bounce shuriken to the Enigma, but without aether lens you'll most likely get sucked into the black hole if you try to shuriken toss (toss is 400 range to 420 radius of black hole).
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
ye i feel like lens is a waste of a slot, where blink gives u more flexibility in getting shurikens and dangerous tracks off
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On May 27 2016 04:44 Sn0_Man wrote:
blink or force are much better items than aether lens on bounty (in extension-roam)
and can't we just be reasonable and delete everything that isn't the roam stuff i mean u put DAEDALUS up there when bounty already has a guaranteed crit ffs. that build is not seen, not viable, and not OK.
I think I am being reasonable in asking an explanation so I can understand what is being suggested (for future reference as well).
Yes, I can put Force Staff instead of Aether Lens
edit: it's done
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Stats at the end of tonight. Should be 3.1-3.2 million growth.
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You've been given an explanation by several people. You may disagree with those explanations, but they have been given and aren't really going to change.
The hero has always been about getting track online and using that to farm his items. Even three years ago, he was fragile and easily zoned and often got no more than basic XP from lane, while depending on track to make up the difference.
It's important to note that he was never some monster rightclicker. He was always focused on track, and his build decisions were really just about his team finding alternate uses for their track bot. The best he could do at the time was annoying supports and spreading -armour, but that was never what he was for.
After the endless series of buffs to roaming play, people have worked out that you get track online just fine actually doing things around the map, contribute a whole lot more in the process, and consume less team resources. So he became a support, and has never looked back.
Even as an offlane core, he is only really a credible threat if he's far ahead. Coming out of offlane, where we've already established that he's weak, easily zoned and has no recovery method, he will very likely not be far ahead. So he will be an abortive glass cannon, otherwise known as dead weight.
Consequently it's better to buy utility, because that is useful even if he gets behind.
Occasionally, yes, he will get lucky and get big enough to try rightclicking, but that happens very rarely and even then he'd probably do just as well with greaves or even dagon. That's not good enough for a build that wants to be "standard".
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The explanation only emphasizes how good the roam/support build but doesn't elaborate why the damage build is inherently bad.
The hero has always been about getting track online and using that to farm his items. Even three years ago, he was fragile and easily zoned and often got no more than basic XP from lane, while depending on track to make up the difference.
Pertinent to both builds (and to Riki who also has similar issues in lane, but is built similarly as Bounty Hunter - Damage)
It's important to note that he was never some monster rightclicker. He was always focused on track, and his build decisions were really just about his team finding alternate uses for their track bot. The best he could do at the time was annoying supports and spreading -armour, but that was never what he was for.
Pertinent to both builds also. I have never advocated or suggested he was a right-clicker, but a one-hit massive damage hitter to take out solo-supports and rely on Track gold to get his larger items that help the team
Even as an offlane core, he is only really a credible threat if he's far ahead. Coming out of offlane, where we've already established that he's weak, easily zoned and has no recovery method, he will very likely not be far ahead. So he will be an abortive glass cannon, otherwise known as dead weight.
Also pertinent to both builds. He's only credible if he doesn't drag behind in levels during the roaming stages (in fact, it is more emphasized).
After the endless series of buffs to roaming play, people have worked out that you get track online just fine actually doing things around the map, contribute a whole lot more in the process, and consume less team resources. So he became a support, and has never looked back.
Even if he does roam. How does going Bottle -> Phase -> Deso hinder this style. Why is it not equally contributing?
Consequently it's better to buy utility, because that is useful even if he gets behind.
If he can get it, which is no different than the other build. If he can't get Meka/Guardian Greaves, there are a variety of other items that are smaller and more accomodating (Drums/Vlads/Force Staff/Medallion)
Look at the item build:
Bottle -> Phase -> Wand -> Deso
This is not a right-click build. This is a strong one-hit kill build that assists in what Bounty Hunter does whether roaming or attempting to achieve by soaking farm in the offlane.
Then look at his extension items:
Drums/Diffusal Blade/BKB/S&Y/MKB/Abyssal
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Force Staff/Vladmir's Offering/Solar Crest/Lotus Orb/Scythe of Vyse/Dagon - Level 5
All these builds round out a roaming Bounty Hunter who relies on Track to get a huge swing in gold to later be built into a utility. EIther pushing for more damage through his Jinada one-hit or assisting in team presence with aura or utility items.
Calling the aggressive build a "right-clicker" is not an accurate summary. It's a build that has worked in the past and still works now albeit not as popular. And the disagreement for it is something I do not grasp because they don't tackle the question: "What is wrong with the original Bounty Hunter build"
1. Because roaming play got buffed
2. Because he can be built as a utility hero
3. Because he relies on Track to get his items
4. Because he gets zoned and shut down in lane
5. He is useful by going utility if he is behind
These either promote the hero general playstyle, emphasize the utility build and/or argue situations that hinder both builds (or both builds accomodate).
They don't suggest that the one-hit damage build is weak or simply awful and that's what I want to understand similar to how I understand Kunkka is now more of a support. It didn't click for me before but I can understand more clearly now of how it was pivoted. But for Bounty Hunter, there is a lot of overlap to the general flaws of the hero that neither item builds really solve. They both have to go for large items, they both can get shut down in lanes whether they stay in the offlane or roam (to which both builds can follow suit) and they can both be dead weight if Bounty Hunter doesn't achieve anything or falls behind in levels.
I understand it is not the most desired build in this thread, but I also cannot find anything on Reddit, PlayDotA or Liquid'Dota on why this build no longer works and from my personal experience, it still works fine. So you can understand my confusion when I don't have the information or reasonings publicly available for me to understand the dislike for this build (so much that it has to be removed, not because it prohibits another build from taking its place, but because it should not be advocated under any circumstances).
On May 26 2016 17:58 Torte de Lini wrote:
I will test him again in a regular pub. match environment. It still works for me just fine just like Lifestealer (Jungle) still gives me strong leads even when I play passively.
I don't see anything inherently wrong with playing Bounty Hunter as a one-hit ganker just as he was played before. Especially true when you're solo-queuing and it is hard to get your team to work together to take advantage of Mekansm/Guardian Greaves.
Since 2010 (patch 6.70), he's had literally 0 damage removed from his abilities nor stat changes, just mana and status debuff effects upped or down (which has been accommodated for via Bottle since forever). So why is this version of Bounty Hunter inherently bad if what it predicates on is still the same as before?
In a lot of games, a roaming Bounty Hunter not only sometimes fails, but the Meka -> Guardian Greaves itemization is rendered useless if the team doesn't have enough damage; which happens a lot at all levels (1k to 4k). An alternative version that does not hinder the item build it runs alongside is not the biggest of crimes. A stable "offlane" version that gets the early necessary levels and still plays similarly as a Level 2 roaming Bounty Hunter is a safety measure that still contributes.
Bounty Hunter being a one-hit damage-dealer is purely for the public environment (the intended audience) similar to Abaddon's dual-builds, Necrophos dual-build, Kunkka Carry guide and Drow Ranger (Shadowblade).
Here's my understanding. It hasn't changed and I'm hoping someone can break down its flaws or poor justifications.
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Pertinent to both builds (and to Riki who also has similar issues in lane, but is built similarly as Bounty Hunter - Damage)
Riki's a good comparison, because the differences are extreme. Riki is guaranteed to get off at least 1 auto-attack on a target + his ult doing potentially 25 more, but doing the same as BH is already a tall order since BH has to actually get in melee range on foot to do land even a single melee hit. And often that's implying without invis because you need to be tracking & using shuriken too of course. It's like expecting an Ursa without BKB or blink to just be able to walk up to enemies. The difference is once Ursa gets in there he will kill his target almost instantly while BH just hits moderately hard.
The floor of contribution on a BH who itemizes for right clicks is really really low. That's really the problem with the build and why it should be retired. A BH with support items can play from behind and focus on tracking targets and using their support items safely, a BH with right click items that's behind is just a track bot wasting 5-10k networth when they can't right click at all.
If you have just a deso and the enemy team starts grouping up and pushing as 5 that deso is 100% totally useless in winning fights (it'll help clean them up but that's it). That's the floor you hit; a BH who's thrown away 3k gold on absolutely nothing for the team AND doesn't have enough mana to sustain track + Shuriken. A support bounty meanwhile can keep up consistent tracks and pressure with shuriken and its short cooldown to force the enemy team to back or risk taking a very dangerous fight (fighting while 5 are tracked and you're missing hp from shurikens is absurdly dangerous).
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There are two issues with having a right-click or one-hit-kill bounty hunter guide.
One is whether or not it is "standard", given that the guides are supposed to be standard ways of playing heroes. Sure you could include dagon ethereal blade bloodseeker in the guide, it's a possible way to play the hero which can work in a pub environment (I know people who only play bloodseeker this way), but it is very far from standard or recommended as a way to play. I would argue strongly that because BH is not played with any form of right-click in the professional or high level pub scene, it is non-standard to play him that way. Just because it can work in your pubs doesn't mean that it is standard or good.
The second is the relative strength of the build in comparison to similar things on other heroes. Take, for example, Legion Commander. Often played in the offlane, fairly good burst damage, somewhat similar build if you're going for right-clicks. The difference between the heroes is that Legion Commander has high survivability, good attack speed, and a spell which increases her attack speed (allowing her to burst people down, presumably also the goal of a right-click bounty). If I had to choose between a right-click BH and a right-click LC, I would take the LC every time because her kit is better suited to it. Bounty, on the other hand, hits very slowly, has very poor survivability, and Jinada has a longgggg cooldown. So bounty can't fight in a sustained fight, and can't burst people down with his right-clicks.
You might say that he can burst a support down if he farms a blink, deso, and battlefury (or something like that). Sure, but I would take a lina who can burst a support and still fight afterwards over a bounty who one-hit-wonders and then does nothing. I would take a Zeus or a Windrunner or a morphling or a juggernaut over a BH, all of whom have good burst damage to kill supports quickly but who can all fight really hard afterwards. And they can all do it cheaper or farm items much faster.
That brings us to another issue with him building as a right-clicker: his farming speed. Any hero which cannot farm fast is a hero that doesn't farm almost at all and gets gold through fights. This is true for pretty much every hero in the game. You don't give farm priority to a CM or a nyx or a Lion or a Rubick or a Clockwerk after the laning stage, because they farm too slowly to be worth it. All of those heroes get their gold through killing people or participating in fights. This automatically makes BH a hero who doesn't build items which help him farm fast, because he has to spend a lot more gold to be able to farm quickly compared to other heroes. Instead, he builds items which help him win fights. "But desolator helps him win fights!" The issue here is that desolator is a relatively pricey item which he gets much later than people who can farm quickly, unless he's snowballing really hard. And this goes for every single item you have for the "right-click" path. Juggernaut can get all of those items far quicker than BH can because he farms fast. So can drow, so can slark, so can TA, so can terrorblade, so can any other farming hero in the game. What this means is that he gets these items much later on than other heroes, making them much less impactful. All the ordinary utility items that people buy on him are much easier to come by, with cheaper components and generally lower cost. All utility items are cheaper relative to their impact than damage items (daedalus, deso, BF, MKB, maelstrom, butterfly, rapier, dagon). If you could have 20 slots then carries would build several utility items too but you don't so they go for items which are more slot-efficient and expensive, because they can farm them quickly and have impact with them early. Bounty can't do this because he can't farm them early, so he falls behind unless he's snowballing.
If, on the other hand, he falls behind but has a mek, or a force staff, or a vlads, he's still useful to his team even though he can't farm and split the map to catch up to the other team. Those are only a couple thousand gold per item, already significantly cheaper than even the "cheap" damage item, a desolator, and they all have cheaper individual components, making deaths matter less.
As to what has changed that makes him weak as a right-clicker now where he used to be strong: the game changed around him. His kit did change somewhat too, but introduction of new items and much faster pace and better efficiency makes it far harder for a bounty to be on an even footing with any other right-clicker, whereas the new items and item changes make utility heroes quite a lot stronger than before.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
if u really want right click bounty, then please make a separate guide for it. like i said, the skill build for laning right click vs roaming utility is different
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Building right click bounty hunter or one-hit bounty hunter is so one dimensional and relies on 1. enemies not having vision on u to make sure u can hit them and 2. they have no way catch u when u hit and run. So either u deal nice amount of damage, get in a track or 2 and die trying, or u do literally nothing else than use track if u cant get in.
Where as with utility and roaming bounty build u are pretty much guaranteed to have effect on the fight with throwing tracks and shurikens + all the aura effects u have.
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What really changed was they stopped jinada from critting shadowblade's backstab damage
bounty as a right clicker hasn't been good since that change
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
presumably u mean shadowwalk since bounties never buy lothars :p
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? no
lothars bounty was the shit like 4 years ago until they patched it out
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To-Do
 Leshrac (Middle)
Leshrac (Lane)
Adjust Skill Build: Lane -> Max Q -> Max W -> Max E
Middle: Max E at 7 (2 -> Q, 3 -> W)
Item Build: Lane -> Arcane Boots -> Aether Lens -> Eul's
Middle -> Earlier Soul Ring (before Arcane Boots?), Magic Wand after Bloodstone
Begin transition work -> No builds will be deleted, no new builds will be created. Adjust Titles and transition appropriate builds.
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Leshrac (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W W Q W R W Q Q E R E E E R (1. Diabolic Edict 2. Split Earth 3. Lightning Storm)
Added Null Talisman to Starting Items
Added Veil of Discord to Situational Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Circlet of Nobility
Removed Aghanim's Scepter
Leshrac (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E Q E W R W W W Q R Q E E R (1. Diabolic Edict 2. Split Earth 3. Lightning Storm
Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Veil of Discord to Situational Items
Moved Aether Lens to Core Items
Moved Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Renamed List
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What's the build goal for lesh lane?
because lightning is much better mid (where pushing the lane is valuable and CSing with spells is fine) compared to in lane where it's only use is to set up stun (and as such doesn't really improve after the first point).
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Middle : Pretty sure u want to have Aether Lens somewhere there, increased stun range is ridiculously good especially when u are not fat enough to stand in the middle of the fight.
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EPT
